If you don't water a seed did you kill a tree? If you put a gun to someone's head and make them water a seed did you save a tree?

A fucking ton of them if they are on another continent and don't speak English.

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

Did you miss that his definition of a person means that those who are unconscious are not persons, meaning it's ok to do whatever you want to them?

This means that people who are in deep sleep phase are quite possibly questionable in their humanity, if that's his actual definition.

Just be aware, VG has said int he past he wants  - his exact words - to "completely marganialize the social right." "Marginalize politically as in not have the voting public see the entire GOP as a bunch of bigots but you the social conservatives as the fringe of the freedom party." https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/The-path-to-political-victory-/5-2582773/?r=-1&page=1&anc=100343173#i100343173

I don't think he's changed his position on this.

A fetus isn't a person until it's brain is capable of a conscious thought.  By saying it will become one of nurtured you are admitting.......  That it isn't.

You are lying my friend.  I said brain dead. It's in your quote tree

ETA:  yes I do want to marginalize the social right. I don't like big government tyrants. I like freedom .  No victim no crime and no a fetus is not a victim until it developed to the point of consciousness

The unborn human is not equivalent to the seed.

If you don't kill the mother and you let her have food and water the child will grow and be born.

You have to actively attack the unborn or their mother to be able to murder the unborn.

False comparison.

I am not your friend. Unless you have changed you want me completely marginalized in politics. ETA: for no good reason.

I didn't lie.



Not conscious = doesn't fit your definition of a person.

I followed your definition exactly.

Person is just a legal term, that can be changed.

It is a human life...

You mean if you force her to do that under threat of prison .

You are purposely trying to twist my words.  A lump of cells that has never been conscious is not the same as an unconscious person .  

My bad I thought you were referencing the brain dead argument.  Would have made.more sense than the stretch you just made. You are purposely avoiding the point that it has never been conscious because you know you'll never change my mind on that or the vast majority of voting citizens.  I know it's hard to swallow that you are going to lose this.  Maybe go up to my previous post explaining the more realistic path of banning abortions.  

Since you will never convince most people a fetus is a person before 15 weeks you need a party so popular people are willing to overlook abortion laws in favor of other policy.   Either way for now you have to abandon it if you ever want a chance at making it the standard

What color is the sky in your world?

Force her to do what?

If she eats and has water according to her desires, and sickness or a condition outside of her control doesn't interveine, the kid will grow and be born.

She - or someone else - has to actively attempt to kill the child.

I didn't twist anything you said.

You posted your definition.

I followed it.

Now you're saying I'm twisting things when I used exactly what your words meant to point out something that makes your definition look bad.

We shouldnt talk about or vote on anything controversial acording to half this thread.

The other half thinks these elections are fair and honest and that theres a magical trans voting blocknmajority defeating us because somebody said "abortion".

Or she could have an abortion before it reaches the point that most of us consider it a person.  If you aren't threatening her and doctors with prison for it at least.

You chose a word and ignored the context.   Just like liberals do when they have a losing argument. Good job

Absolutely.  When you can convince a majority of people a first trimester fetus is a person then you can ban abortions without losing elections.   Since most people draw that line at a formed brain that has made its first conscious thought you have a lot of work to do to move that definition into the first trimester.

They are all playing for the same team while we THINK there are still two different teams.  We still don't realize that we are cheering for THE team.

The point is the societal shift continued:
"Just allow gay marriage" became "gender is fluid," became "tranny story hour"





I haven't quoted scripture at all, in any abortion thread on Arfcom to date. I have pointed out that it is impossible to be Catholic and support abortion.

In fact, my position can be summed up as:

The fundamental premise of the pro-life argument is that it's wrong to kill an innocent human. You don't have to be a Christian to agree with that. You just have to not think murder is good.

The second premise is that abortion kills an innocent human. This, too, is an… https://t.co/4DfRwNJGw9

Seth Dillon  (@SethDillon) April 10, 2024

"The fundamental premise of the pro-life argument is that it's wrong to kill an innocent human. You don't have to be a Christian to agree with that. You just have to not think murder is good.

The second premise is that abortion kills an innocent human. This, too, is an indisputable fact. The unborn certainly aren't guilty of any wrongdoing, and they definitely don't belong to some other species.

It follows from these true premises that abortion is wrong. You don't have to cite the Bible to make this case."

I am convicted that it is a person.

Yes, I will treat hear as if she was trying to hire a hitman to kill a family member, or as if she was trying to kill her child.

Because that is exactly what it is in reality.

These things require that level of physical coercion.  It's no different than if some thug pulls a gun on you for your sneakers and threatens your life. Except the child is being threatened for being a child.




I did not take it out of context.

If I had, you could use your own post and show where I have and do so without breaking any logic.

You cannot do that.

I don't think you'll even try.

You said the person has to be conscious.

I took you to mean that you said the person has to be conscious.

That is not twisting.

That is not taking things out of context.

You got caught.

How do you guys live with yourselves not personally stopping the mass murder of what you supposedly believe are babies?  Lol

Context- person doesn't exist until a conscious thought exists.


You- vg says it's okay to kill an unconscious person.


See what you did there?

Sadly, that meme needs a major update.

We already have states saying they will kidnap children so they can have their genitals and sex specific organs mutilated and maine recently tried to join that set and we had a montana hospital medically kidnap a couple's child over the same stuff.  We have corporations as big and prominent as disney paying medical insurance out for their employees to get their children mutilated in that way.

If we can kill the children, hey, what's to stop us from mutilating their sex organs and giving them drugs we used to use to chemically castrate pedos and puberty blockers that ruin their bodies.

Dark days, indeed

Good when Biden gets back in, abortions will be made legal at the federal level. Fucking idiots.

No.


Here, I'll do what you can't do, because you're actually twisting stuff.



If they are not persons, you do not have to treat them as persons.

You even reinforced the point:



In fact, you bluntly said that it's ok to kill a what actually is a person by unplugging them, because by your (false) definition, there's no person there.  You than reinforced that by saying the body can be alive otherwise.  

Own your words.

eta: you explicitly said unconscious humans aren't people. They're just a body.

Doubt it.  They will poison pill any legislation to protect it federally. It's too useful of an issue to defeat Republicans.  The only way to win is if Republicans push the compromise at 15 weeks or abandon the issue from the platform completely.

Except that in the pro slavery arguments, you couldn't hide from looking at them and really dehumanize them.  You especially couldn't hide from all those mulattoe kids.

In the abortion argument, you can hide from all that.

Pro aborts get very mad when you require ultrasounds before you can kill the unborn child for exactly that reason.

When a body is completely brain dead the person has left the building.  A first trimester fetus a person hasn't even existed yet.  This really isn't that complicated.  In both cases you have a lump of human cells that isn't a person.  One has died and one has never existed.

Your arguments depend heavily on some sort of spiritual idea maybe a soul or something that is floating around waiting for the sperm to enter the egg and start multiplying cells.  Or something similar.  You aren't going to convince me of that with your current arguments.  Nor will you convince a majority of voters

What a sham… hope it gets overturned somehow.



Pro choice

It's not going to matter. We're not voting our way out of this.

Good point

Not only that, but while destroying Roe, which was just wrong, they kind of moves in a wrong direction allowing states this.

Exactly like in 1851. If the state of NY does not protect human life throughout the entire 9 months, which they don't. Same as say Alabama did not treat minorites as persons in 1851.

Wrong decision. If there was a point for Federal leadership, that was it. not setting min drinking age or nonsense like that.

The example you gave is not the definition you gave.

You gave your definition.  Than you gave one example that fits under it.

 <---- if it doesn't fit that, it's not a person according to you, if you really beleive this.

If you're not self aware, you're not a person.

if you're not conscious, you're not a person.

If you're not thinking, you're not a person.

If people start applying those everywhere they apply some really ugly stuff is going to crop up really fast.

Your definition means that a boxer who is ko'ed and unconscious *is not a human.*

All you had to do was go "oops, I didn't mean that, my definition was wrong, I need to reconsider that."

You aren't going to be able to define the unborn child as a non-person without also classifying other people as not persons.

I'd like to convince you otherwise, because what you believe is wrong and disastrous, but I accept that I might not be able to and that government should physically coerce people who believe like you do to stop them from implementing those beliefs. If you did it or are attempting to do it you should get what you dserve for having done it, or be stopped from doing it.


We can't have a properly functioning society where people get to do what you're saying they should be able to.  A group of people cannot accept what is wrongful killing  - killing people who do not deerve to be killed - and not suffer the consequences that will bring.

We are below replacement rate, we have destroyed the relationships between men and women by unhitching pregancy and childbirth from sex; because sex has been trivialized and we now demonize to outright hate having children, well, shocker, less kids. And men and women now pretty much hate each other and want nothing to do with each other.

The argument is simple: don't kill people who don't deserve to be.

The unborn is a person. If you leave a concieved human alone where it normally is and under normal conditions, we get to see that it is a person. The arguments that say it is not a person boil down to irrational nonsense. "it looks different than us." "it can't communicate." "it can't fight back." "it's not the same size as us."  "if it's inside the woman it can't be a person." Or some other irrational variations.

edits in red.

That's probably the only rational argument for losing elections.  If the country implodes faster people might do something about it .

Yes, the wrong kind Im afraid. I too lived in CA for a time, and left that shithole because I was tired of being over taxed and bound by stupid ass laws and regulations. 7 years after leaving, Arizona has become really expensive and while the laws arent bad its only going to get worse as more Blue California faggots move here. Housing has skyrocketed and the communists have started to take over government positions. Literally cheated and little was done to stop it.

Im also kinda tired of the heat in the summer too.

I've lived here for close to 50 yrs. The over population, congestion, crime and increased cost of living....not to mention the summer heat, have me questioning why I'm still here.

Depends where you live. In my parts it snowed last week.

I understand you believe that a clump of cells if nurtured turns into a person therefore it is a person.   We are back at square one. I believe most pro life at conception people see time as predetermined fate of some sort.  To me , by your standard, that is saying that using a condom or pulling out during ovulation is murdering a baby because if you nutted in there one of those sperm would meet the egg and grow into a baby.    You could take that further and say that if you don't even fuck when there's an opportunity for pregnancy you are killing the person that would have been born if you did.  

I see a person as a being that has the capacity at minimum for consciousness. Once the brain is developed and fired up the person, soul, or whatever you want to call it is created.   Which is why I an most people have zero hesitation at allowing  a woman too choose to stop a pregnancy before that point.  That is also why the law has settled at that point in most of the civilized world.     I and most others also fully support bans after 15 weeks other than rare medical circumstances where it can be seen as self defense or the pregnancy is no longer viable.

I will give you one exception to my morality.  I support choice of abortion for rape at any date. I think it is immoral to do that at a later date but I also think forcing a woman to grow the seed of her rapist is torturing a victim.  So more or less I'll choose what I believe to be the most moral choice in that circumstance.

I do believe there are realistic ways to reduce the choice of abortion if that's what the goal is ultimately.  

Nobody chooses to "kill a baby"  but the reason people choose not to grow one are pretty well known.    To reduce abortion in larger numbers you need to make it more affordable to have children.  Everything from the medical bills during pregnancy till the day they are adults. The food they consume, the rent and cost of a house,  the ability to advance a career,  child care.       You also wouldn't hurt to unfuck the family courts so there's less incentive for divorce and more broken families.  


The solutions to reducing abortion are largely economic.  You not only need Republicans to win but to act on the economic platform.  They should be cutting down federal agencies instead of growing them.  They should be cutting taxes instead of bombing third world children while investing in the bomb makers.  So on so forth.    One thing for sure is losing elections to communists democrats is likely to worsen things. Not only will abortion remain legal but there will be a hell of a lot more of them as the nation slips into poverty at a faster rate.

More or less of you want to save "babies" we have to save ourselves first.  The current GOP is almost as bad as Democrats where it matters.  We need to hold them accountable and fire most of them in primaries until they fucking get the point that we won't tolerate increased government.  The last thing we should be doing is fighting for the most unpopular policy in the nation and accelerating democrat control.

This right here ..... seems to be a difficult concept for many to grasp

Speak for yourself.

You’re missing the point. Murder is illegal because the vast majority of people think murder is bad. Abortion is legal because the vast majority of people think it should be. At the end of the day, every single law and the constitution itself is subject to the will of the people.

All the stuff about “the government should do this and the government should do that” is all just fantasy unless you have some plan for how to convince your fellow Americans to vote with you. So what’s the plan?

Is it a belief, or is it science ?  What are the chances of it growing into another species?




Do you also not have a problem with a man choosing to stop it?

Is the forceable termination of another persons pregnancy against their will, not immoral or a crime?

Is there any evidence that the loss of a pregnancy induces grief/negative emotions?



Is there evidence of this being torture, or just a feeling?

And so how does two wrongs make a right?

You've established that its a person at this state, so killling it is murder. The victim of this murder, is not the criminal responsible for the circumstances. So its not in anyway self defense.

So is a human life worth less than the inconvenience of bringing an unwanted pregnancy to term?



People are choosing to kill babies. In the overwhelming majority of cases, they also chose to engage in the activity intended to and likely to lead to the creation of that baby.

Despite current popular opinions, the primary and natural purpose of sex is procreation, not personable gratification. Its a foreseeable outcome.

I dont have a problem with there being incentives for families to be created and grow.

But there also needs to be education in morality, and disincentives for immoral and irresponsible behavior.



Its only economic to a point, some of the poorest people in the world are having the most children. Its a matter of priorities and values.

We've been indoctrinated into a culture of personal gratification and consumerism.

Abortion, destruction of the traditional family/marriage in favor of women in the work force, is all intertwined.

While I'm enjoying the pro-choicers getting smacked around in this thread, this is really what it boils down to.

You're looking at this in the black and white. This is not boolean. All we are saying is that as long as the Republicans keep campaigning on "Banning all abortions," they will continue to lose when they should win. Campaigning on it causes them fall right into the democrats trap.

Yet no one can answer what happens when you don't run on principle, get elected, and then start talking....

Oh yeah, I know. You get voted out, anything you did reversed, and we're back to square 1 except you're known by all to capitulate your principles. The MSM runs smear campaigns on how mean and anti-woman the conservatives are. Your own people who held the line in the sand call you out for being a spineless weasel who is too afraid to take flak on what is morally right.

It's sad to see "conservatives" willing to compromise morality to win elections, yet they complain the Overton window shifts left.

I believe the root cause of all our issues in America is the lack of a moral and virtuous code that was the foundation of our Constitution. The way to fix that is not further compromising to "win the next election". If that's where we truly are as conservatives, we've already lost, at which point I'll stand for what's right no matter what. What is the next moral issue you are willing to overlook to win an election? "Well, its only liberals who are butchering their kids genitalia and them kids will probably be liberals anyway....we better allow that so we can win the next election". I'm not sure which is worse, those who believe unlimited and unrestricted abortion up till birth is good, or those who believe it's abhorrent, but are willing to allow it happen to "win the next election".

Remember John Adams said, "Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

Lmao you people think it makes a difference on whether we "win" or "lose" . The ballots will be stuffed either way. But some of you are so quick to sell your soul and support murdering babies because "muh politics" "muh republican victory." Makes me sick.

Same type of jokers who think "oh if we but toe the line and kiss the boot, ATF wouldn't wipe their butts with the 2nd Amendment so hard!"

This is what it comes down to, and why there will never be broad agreement that abortion should be completely banned. It requires a religious framework to support it, and in a country that was in part built on freedom of religion, you can't force everyone to share your beliefs and agree you're justified holding a gun to their head to take a pregnancy to term.

The key is what society determined is the legal definition of a "person." House Republicans would confer personhood at the moment of conception and then use the 14th Amendment to outlaw abortion nationwide under the equal protection clause.

"Conciousness" is currently understood to emerge around week 24 of pregnancy. I think granting "personhood" at that time, and a ban on abortions (with exceptions for the survival of the mother) around week 22 is justifiable on that objective basis.

By this argument, it's acceptable to murder someone who is asleep.  

Let me put forth a non-religious argument here.  

I get a phone call that says my child is in a coma and is brain dead.   I rush to the hospital distraught, and when I get there the doctor says I don't have to worry too much, my kid has a 99% chance of making a complete recovery in 9 months.  

My wife who is a shitty person because I shouldn't have gotten that drunk in Vegas says "that sounds expensive and I didn't really want to be a parent now that I think about it.  kill it.  now.".   And the doctor, over any objection I might have, does.  

It's important to understand what makes murder so abhorrent.  One of those abhorrent things is you erased all of a persons future.  You took it from them - maybe they would have fallen in love the next day, or invented something cool, or found a hobby they loved, or even enjoyed watching a nice sunset.   And you killed that ENTIRE future away from a baby regardless of the age you aborted it.

I don't have to believe in God (and I don't in an organized Christian fashion) to understand that medically and scientifically a 1 week old glob of human cells has a certain predictable and beautiful experience called life in store for it.