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Posted: 4/11/2024 11:10:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: victorgonzales]
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By vectorsc: By this argument, it's acceptable to murder someone who is asleep. Let me put forth a non-religious argument here. I get a phone call that says my child is in a coma and is brain dead. I rush to the hospital distraught, and when I get there the doctor says I don't have to worry too much, my kid has a 99% chance of making a complete recovery in 9 months. My wife who is a shitty person because I shouldn't have gotten that drunk in Vegas says "that sounds expensive and I didn't really want to be a parent now that I think about it. kill it. now.". And the doctor, over any objection I might have, does. It's important to understand what makes murder so abhorrent. One of those abhorrent things is you erased all of a persons future. You took it from them - maybe they would have fallen in love the next day, or invented something cool, or found a hobby they loved, or even enjoyed watching a nice sunset. And you killed that ENTIRE future away from a baby regardless of the age you aborted it. I don't have to believe in God (and I don't in an organized Christian fashion) to understand that medically and scientifically a 1 week old glob of human cells has a certain predictable and beautiful experience called life in store for it. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By vectorsc: Originally Posted By macros73: Originally Posted By victorgonzales: When a body is completely brain dead the person has left the building. A first trimester fetus a person hasn't even existed yet. This really isn't that complicated. In both cases you have a lump of human cells that isn't a person. One has died and one has never existed. Your arguments depend heavily on some sort of spiritual idea maybe a soul or something that is floating around waiting for the sperm to enter the egg and start multiplying cells. Or something similar. You aren't going to convince me of that with your current arguments. Nor will you convince a majority of voters This is what it comes down to, and why there will never be broad agreement that abortion should be completely banned. It requires a religious framework to support it, and in a country that was in part built on freedom of religion, you can't force everyone to share your beliefs and agree you're justified holding a gun to their head to take a pregnancy to term. The key is what society determined is the legal definition of a "person." House Republicans would confer personhood at the moment of conception and then use the 14th Amendment to outlaw abortion nationwide under the equal protection clause. "Conciousness" is currently understood to emerge around week 24 of pregnancy. I think granting "personhood" at that time, and a ban on abortions (with exceptions for the survival of the mother) around week 22 is justifiable on that objective basis. Let me put forth a non-religious argument here. I get a phone call that says my child is in a coma and is brain dead. I rush to the hospital distraught, and when I get there the doctor says I don't have to worry too much, my kid has a 99% chance of making a complete recovery in 9 months. My wife who is a shitty person because I shouldn't have gotten that drunk in Vegas says "that sounds expensive and I didn't really want to be a parent now that I think about it. kill it. now.". And the doctor, over any objection I might have, does. It's important to understand what makes murder so abhorrent. One of those abhorrent things is you erased all of a persons future. You took it from them - maybe they would have fallen in love the next day, or invented something cool, or found a hobby they loved, or even enjoyed watching a nice sunset. And you killed that ENTIRE future away from a baby regardless of the age you aborted it. I don't have to believe in God (and I don't in an organized Christian fashion) to understand that medically and scientifically a 1 week old glob of human cells has a certain predictable and beautiful experience called life in store for it. You alonf with others are completely sidestepping that most of us believe until the brain is formed and capable of having a conscious thought a person HAS NEVER EXISTED yet. We are operating on linear time why others are operating on an idea of all time existing all at once. We believe you can't kill a person who hasn't existed yet. You believe it a chain of events becomes a person the chain of events is a person. We believe a house is a house. You believe a pile of lumber is a house. We believe a car is a car. You believe a bunch of metal and plastic is a car. For most people it takes a religious mindset and the idea of predetermined fate to hold your view. This is why only the religious states are adamant about first trimester bans. They don't care about science or objectively determining where consciousness exists. I'm running out of ways to explain this simple concept but if you want abortion bans to exist in the first trimester you will have to change a majority of peoples perception of time and what makes you a person. None of the arguments any of you are making are doing that and the ones who choose to just yell baby killer are actually pissing off people and likely encouraging them to vote harder against you. It's kinda like when the left calls us racists for wanting less government. You know your logic is sound and has nothing to do with skin color and it pisses you off when they falsely accuse you of it. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 4/11/2024 11:13:36 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By vectorsc: By this argument, it's acceptable to murder someone who is asleep. Let me put forth a non-religious argument here. I get a phone call that says my child is in a coma and is brain dead. I rush to the hospital distraught, and when I get there the doctor says I don't have to worry too much, my kid has a 99% chance of making a complete recovery in 9 months. My wife who is a shitty person because I shouldn't have gotten that drunk in Vegas says "that sounds expensive and I didn't really want to be a parent now that I think about it. kill it. now.". And the doctor, over any objection I might have, does. It's important to understand what makes murder so abhorrent. One of those abhorrent things is you erased all of a persons future. You took it from them - maybe they would have fallen in love the next day, or invented something cool, or found a hobby they loved, or even enjoyed watching a nice sunset. And you killed that ENTIRE future away from a baby regardless of the age you aborted it. I don't have to believe in God (and I don't in an organized Christian fashion) to understand that medically and scientifically a 1 week old glob of human cells has a certain predictable and beautiful experience called life in store for it. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By vectorsc: Originally Posted By macros73: Originally Posted By victorgonzales: When a body is completely brain dead the person has left the building. A first trimester fetus a person hasn't even existed yet. This really isn't that complicated. In both cases you have a lump of human cells that isn't a person. One has died and one has never existed. Your arguments depend heavily on some sort of spiritual idea maybe a soul or something that is floating around waiting for the sperm to enter the egg and start multiplying cells. Or something similar. You aren't going to convince me of that with your current arguments. Nor will you convince a majority of voters This is what it comes down to, and why there will never be broad agreement that abortion should be completely banned. It requires a religious framework to support it, and in a country that was in part built on freedom of religion, you can't force everyone to share your beliefs and agree you're justified holding a gun to their head to take a pregnancy to term. The key is what society determined is the legal definition of a "person." House Republicans would confer personhood at the moment of conception and then use the 14th Amendment to outlaw abortion nationwide under the equal protection clause. "Conciousness" is currently understood to emerge around week 24 of pregnancy. I think granting "personhood" at that time, and a ban on abortions (with exceptions for the survival of the mother) around week 22 is justifiable on that objective basis. Let me put forth a non-religious argument here. I get a phone call that says my child is in a coma and is brain dead. I rush to the hospital distraught, and when I get there the doctor says I don't have to worry too much, my kid has a 99% chance of making a complete recovery in 9 months. My wife who is a shitty person because I shouldn't have gotten that drunk in Vegas says "that sounds expensive and I didn't really want to be a parent now that I think about it. kill it. now.". And the doctor, over any objection I might have, does. It's important to understand what makes murder so abhorrent. One of those abhorrent things is you erased all of a persons future. You took it from them - maybe they would have fallen in love the next day, or invented something cool, or found a hobby they loved, or even enjoyed watching a nice sunset. And you killed that ENTIRE future away from a baby regardless of the age you aborted it. I don't have to believe in God (and I don't in an organized Christian fashion) to understand that medically and scientifically a 1 week old glob of human cells has a certain predictable and beautiful experience called life in store for it. I had written, then erased, the concept of a "grandfather" clause (pun intended) to cover your example but I thought it would be obvious. Personhood, once conferred, is assumed until death is pronounced. You're talking about a clump of cells that has achieved consciousness and now has equal protection under the law versus a clump of cells that has not. Your "future" argument also requires religious belief for validity. In the future, all that lies ahead of every single one of us is death. If there is no life after death then you will not remember any part of life, beautiful or not. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 4/11/2024 11:42:27 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By wyomingnick: I agree with you. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By wyomingnick: Originally Posted By klinc: Originally Posted By wyomingnick: Originally Posted By CypressCity: Abortion and weed are the two things that keep Republicans out of office. Such a stupid fucking hill to die on. I don't see Republicans hardly talk about weed. Most states have either medical or recreational already. I don't think its much of an issue anymore. Desantis just had a press conference last week stating that it will be everywhere and smell like weed (I already smell it all the time) if the weed amendment in Florida passes. Dumbasses should lay off the anti-weed thing. Plenty of other shit is legal that's just as bad/worse for you. ...murder though is not in the same universe as the reefer as far as I'm concerned though. I agree with you. It sucks to smell it, when your at a restaurant or about to eat. Absolutely disgusting smell. |
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CT, USA
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Posted: 4/11/2024 12:48:03 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By macros73: I had written, then erased, the concept of a "grandfather" clause (pun intended) to cover your example but I thought it would be obvious. Personhood, once conferred, is assumed until death is pronounced. You're talking about a clump of cells that has achieved consciousness and now has equal protection under the law versus a clump of cells that has not. Your "future" argument also requires religious belief for validity. In the future, all that lies ahead of every single one of us is death. If there is no life after death then you will not remember any part of life, beautiful or not. I find your viewpoint so dark it would fit a solid definition of evil. Which....I guess makes my point. We are still on the same page. |
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CT, USA
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Posted: 4/11/2024 12:58:38 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By victorgonzales: Someone asleep has a brain capable of conscious thought. Someone in a coma has a brain capable of conscious thought. Someone brain dead, no neurons firing living on machines keeping blood flowing to their organs, does not. You alonf with others are completely sidestepping that most of us believe until the brain is formed and capable of having a conscious thought a person HAS NEVER EXISTED yet. We are operating on linear time why others are operating on an idea of all time existing all at once. We believe you can't kill a person who hasn't existed yet. You believe it a chain of events becomes a person the chain of events is a person. We believe a house is a house. You believe a pile of lumber is a house. We believe a car is a car. You believe a bunch of metal and plastic is a car. For most people it takes a religious mindset and the idea of predetermined fate to hold your view. This is why only the religious states are adamant about first trimester bans. They don't care about science or objectively determining where consciousness exists. I'm running out of ways to explain this simple concept but if you want abortion bans to exist in the first trimester you will have to change a majority of peoples perception of time and what makes you a person. None of the arguments any of you are making are doing that and the ones who choose to just yell baby killer are actually pissing off people and likely encouraging them to vote harder against you. It's kinda like when the left calls us racists for wanting less government. You know your logic is sound and has nothing to do with skin color and it pisses you off when they falsely accuse you of it. If there is no intrinsic value in a person's future, there can be no intrinsic value in their past. You say "so what?" to my argument that the child has a future, I say "so what?" to your argument that the child has no past. "We believe a house is a house. You believe a pile of lumber is a house. We believe a car is a car. You believe a bunch of metal and plastic is a car. For most people it takes a religious mindset and the idea of predetermined fate to hold your view. This is why only the religious states are adamant about first trimester bans. They don't care about science or objectively determining where consciousness exists." If a pile of lumber was forming itself into a house with 99% certainty, it does not become unreasonable to consider aspects of home ownership when you look at said pile of lumber. And if you decide to soak said pile of lumber in gasoline and toss in a match, you are attempting to prevent the formation of a house. Then you start tossing out such arguements as "a house there would block my view", "I can't afford the taxes on a house", "someone dropped off that pile of lumber that was forming into a house on my property and I didn't want it". All statements that acknowledge the house, not the pile of lumber. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 4/11/2024 1:01:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: macros73]
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By vectorsc: I have to have a religous bent in order to enjoy life? Because there may be no life after death, this is all pointless and I guess it makes sense to just kill ourselves the second things get difficult? I find your viewpoint so dark it would fit a solid definition of evil. Which....I guess makes my point. We are still on the same page. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By vectorsc: Originally Posted By macros73: I had written, then erased, the concept of a "grandfather" clause (pun intended) to cover your example but I thought it would be obvious. Personhood, once conferred, is assumed until death is pronounced. You're talking about a clump of cells that has achieved consciousness and now has equal protection under the law versus a clump of cells that has not. Your "future" argument also requires religious belief for validity. In the future, all that lies ahead of every single one of us is death. If there is no life after death then you will not remember any part of life, beautiful or not. I find your viewpoint so dark it would fit a solid definition of evil. Which....I guess makes my point. We are still on the same page. You can enjoy life without a religious bent. You have to have a religious bent to argue that a future potential to momentarily enjoy a life that you won't remember absent an afterlife is reason to ban aborting an embryo that hasn't achieved consciousness. By evil, do you mean in the religious sense or the secular sense? Darkness isn't good or evil. It just is. What you bring into it, or into the light, might be good or evil. From an objective viewpoint, there are two reasons not to kill yourself: if there is no afterlife, once you die, it'll be as you never lived, and you'll have no memory of any suffering of your life. You have nothing to gain by exiting early. The other reason is, you could always be wrong and the GD version of God will be there, waiting with every dog you ever knew in your life, and will say to you: "Yeah dude, you could've spent eternity playing with these guys, but fuck you for not doing what I knew you wouldn't do when I told you to do it. Instead, you'll spend eternity in chili-without-beans land." |
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Posted: 4/11/2024 1:22:44 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CypressCity: Abortion and weed are the two things that keep Republicans out of office. Such a stupid fucking hill to die on. What next after people who strongly oppose abortions concede on the issue? I mean if it's gonna be okay to murder tiny, helpless human beings... where does the next step of civilized devolution go from there? Do I think that many of children born into horrible inner city situations where they're almost guaranteed to grow into a life of crime? Yep. Do I think that snuffing them out before they've grown up and chosen to be predators is Minority Report pre-crime shit? Yep. |
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Posted: 4/11/2024 1:27:53 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Red_Label: What next after people who strongly oppose abortions concede on the issue? I mean if it's gonna be okay to murder tiny, helpless human beings... where does the next step of civilized devolution go from there? Do I think that many of children born into horrible inner city situations where they're almost guaranteed to grow into a life of crime? Yep. Do I think that snuffing them out before they've grown up and chosen to be predators is Minority Report pre-crime shit? Yep. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 4/11/2024 1:32:09 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Red_Label: What next after people who strongly oppose abortions concede on the issue? I mean if it's gonna be okay to murder tiny, helpless human beings... where does the next step of civilized devolution go from there? Do I think that many of children born into horrible inner city situations where they're almost guaranteed to grow into a life of crime? Yep. Do I think that snuffing them out before they've grown up and chosen to be predators is Minority Report pre-crime shit? Yep. 
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Posted: 4/11/2024 1:46:09 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By vectorsc: Your idea that personhood is conferred upon the act of conscious thought is no different a presumption than mine. You just choose to put it in a different place on a spectrum and then claim that you stand on the moral high ground. VICTORY! If there is no intrinsic value in a person's future, there can be no intrinsic value in their past. You say "so what?" to my argument that the child has a future, I say "so what?" to your argument that the child has no past. "We believe a house is a house. You believe a pile of lumber is a house. We believe a car is a car. You believe a bunch of metal and plastic is a car. For most people it takes a religious mindset and the idea of predetermined fate to hold your view. This is why only the religious states are adamant about first trimester bans. They don't care about science or objectively determining where consciousness exists." If a pile of lumber was forming itself into a house with 99% certainty, it does not become unreasonable to consider aspects of home ownership when you look at said pile of lumber. And if you decide to soak said pile of lumber in gasoline and toss in a match, you are attempting to prevent the formation of a house. Then you start tossing out such arguements as "a house there would block my view", "I can't afford the taxes on a house", "someone dropped off that pile of lumber that was forming into a house on my property and I didn't want it". All statements that acknowledge the house, not the pile of lumber. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By vectorsc: Originally Posted By victorgonzales: Someone asleep has a brain capable of conscious thought. Someone in a coma has a brain capable of conscious thought. Someone brain dead, no neurons firing living on machines keeping blood flowing to their organs, does not. You alonf with others are completely sidestepping that most of us believe until the brain is formed and capable of having a conscious thought a person HAS NEVER EXISTED yet. We are operating on linear time why others are operating on an idea of all time existing all at once. We believe you can't kill a person who hasn't existed yet. You believe it a chain of events becomes a person the chain of events is a person. We believe a house is a house. You believe a pile of lumber is a house. We believe a car is a car. You believe a bunch of metal and plastic is a car. For most people it takes a religious mindset and the idea of predetermined fate to hold your view. This is why only the religious states are adamant about first trimester bans. They don't care about science or objectively determining where consciousness exists. I'm running out of ways to explain this simple concept but if you want abortion bans to exist in the first trimester you will have to change a majority of peoples perception of time and what makes you a person. None of the arguments any of you are making are doing that and the ones who choose to just yell baby killer are actually pissing off people and likely encouraging them to vote harder against you. It's kinda like when the left calls us racists for wanting less government. You know your logic is sound and has nothing to do with skin color and it pisses you off when they falsely accuse you of it. If there is no intrinsic value in a person's future, there can be no intrinsic value in their past. You say "so what?" to my argument that the child has a future, I say "so what?" to your argument that the child has no past. "We believe a house is a house. You believe a pile of lumber is a house. We believe a car is a car. You believe a bunch of metal and plastic is a car. For most people it takes a religious mindset and the idea of predetermined fate to hold your view. This is why only the religious states are adamant about first trimester bans. They don't care about science or objectively determining where consciousness exists." If a pile of lumber was forming itself into a house with 99% certainty, it does not become unreasonable to consider aspects of home ownership when you look at said pile of lumber. And if you decide to soak said pile of lumber in gasoline and toss in a match, you are attempting to prevent the formation of a house. Then you start tossing out such arguements as "a house there would block my view", "I can't afford the taxes on a house", "someone dropped off that pile of lumber that was forming into a house on my property and I didn't want it". All statements that acknowledge the house, not the pile of lumber. We aren't voting to kill babies we are voting for government to stay out of your decisions. Until you guys fully acknowledge that and find a way to chance our perception of when a bunch of dividing cells be imes a person you'll just lose. I at least acknowledge you believe it's a person even if I disagree. When I argue this with you I focus on changing your perception to consciousness and the definition of a person. Pro lifers just tend to call people baby murderers because you have nothing solid to convince me or others that we should change our perception. You'd have to sell us on a spiritual belief in fate. That's a much harder sell so you'll probably keep losing this battle forever. Mentioned earlier if you really care about reducing abortions you'll focus efforts on reducing the reasons women make that choice rather than trying to use government violence to stop them. |
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CT, USA
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Posted: 4/11/2024 2:51:04 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By victorgonzales: Iat the end of the day most of us believe a person doesn't exist until it exists and define that as a functioning brain in the case of a fetus. We vote against government controlling what you do with your own body right up until we believe there's another person involved in your choice. We aren't voting to kill babies we are voting for government to stay out of your decisions. Until you guys fully acknowledge that and find a way to chance our perception of when a bunch of dividing cells be imes a person you'll just lose. I at least acknowledge you believe it's a person even if I disagree. When I argue this with you I focus on changing your perception to consciousness and the definition of a person. Pro lifers just tend to call people baby murderers because you have nothing solid to convince me or others that we should change our perception. You'd have to sell us on a spiritual belief in fate. That's a much harder sell so you'll probably keep losing this battle forever. Mentioned earlier if you really care about reducing abortions you'll focus efforts on reducing the reasons women make that choice rather than trying to use government violence to stop them. Its a scientific fact that a fetus will become a person. No fate. No religion. No theory. You have to twist your mind into a shape that indicates that there will be no future and all time will end in a few moments. Which is far more of a religious jump to suggest that such a thing will happen. You are changing the future for this clump of cells from a) a person who experiences the wonder of life to b) a dumpster. All you have to do to force my position into a religious one where there is nothing of the sort is ignore completely the concept of how the human animal works. And causation. And time itself. Listen, its OKAY to feel like killing babies is cool. Just own it. Don't do an olympic gymnastic routine mentally and then shovel that pile of steaming horseshit onto my plate like its some sort of 5 star restaurant special. Hell, I love abortion. 1st trimester, 3rd trimester, 12th trimester, 207th trimester. And that's for one simple reason - I'm fucking evil. I hate all of you and you should all die. The only thing I appreciate about God is that he killed every person I ever asked him to. Some of them just don't know it yet. And almost all of them died in the slow painful manner we refer to as aging. I'm gonna kick Hitler off Margret Sanger, start railing that puss, and thus will begin my reign when I finally get to hell. It's your hilarious contortions that offend my sense of personal responsibility and intellectual honesty. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 4/11/2024 2:57:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: macros73]
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By victorgonzales: Mentioned earlier if you really care about reducing abortions you'll focus efforts on reducing the reasons women make that choice rather than trying to use government violence to stop them. You know the answer. They don't care about the babies or the women. Not really. They care about whether they can imagine God smiling down upon them or not. |
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OK, USA
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Posted: 4/11/2024 4:04:28 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sebastian_MacMaine: I too love losing my gun rights, massive inflation, and leaving the country's borders wide open, fellow antiabortion enthusiasts. Conservative Republicans' choice of dying on this hill is why I left years ago |
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Posted: 4/11/2024 4:29:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: victorgonzales]
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By vectorsc: Its a scientific fact that a fetus will become a person. No fate. No religion. No theory. In order for you to consider it murder you have to hold a belief that fate has determine that person must come into existence. I don't believe that. I don't believe you have to right to force a woman to grow a fertilized egg into a person. She should be able to choose not to until 15 weeks when it becomes a person. |
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Posted: 4/11/2024 5:06:07 PM EDT
[#15]
It's such a satanic cuck comment to refer to saving the unborn as a hill to die on. Don't let the twisted words of these satanic cucks trick you.
Saving unborn children is a hill to live on, in the eternal life God gives us. This human life will end regardless, being pro-life is a hill to LIVE on. |
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SC, USA
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Posted: 4/11/2024 5:09:05 PM EDT
[#16]
embryos are not people.
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Posted: 4/11/2024 5:11:50 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sierra-def: Depends where you live. In my parts it snowed last week. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sierra-def: Originally Posted By azjeeper: I've lived here for close to 50 yrs. The over population, congestion, crime and increased cost of living....not to mention the summer heat, have me questioning why I'm still here. Depends where you live. In my parts it snowed last week. It absolutely does depend, which is why I question why I'm still here. |
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Posted: 4/11/2024 5:27:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: piccolo]
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Chaingun: Leave it to the states. The people in each state are deciding. In AZ and want an abortion, go to a neighboring state This. I'm SURE that if Suzie Creamcheese wants to get scraped out I'm SURE there will be no shortage of volunteers willing to drag her sorry ass across the border to California where they have abortion mills 50 feet across the border that runs daily specials. Half off and we throw in lunch! All this and more for $29.95. Act now! You rape 'em, we scrape 'em. No fetus can beat us. |
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Posted: 4/11/2024 5:29:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: piccolo]
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jDrexler: The moment marriage became a tax status the clock started ticking. If the only arguments you can muster are religious ones, the law changing is inevitable. the correct answer on gay marriage was repealing all laws that recognize marriage as a legal status that grants any benefits. Should have remained a religious tradition. It’s one reason I encourage people to stop quoting scripture in political debates. It’s a losing hand. This. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/11/2024 5:44:32 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By zentradi: It's such a satanic cuck comment to refer to saving the unborn as a hill to die on. Don't let the twisted words of these satanic cucks trick you. Saving unborn children is a hill to live on, in the eternal life God gives us. This human life will end regardless, being pro-life is a hill to LIVE on.  |
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CT, USA
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Posted: 4/11/2024 5:58:50 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By victorgonzales: Become a person when the brain grows and activates yes. Let me repeat that BECOME. a person. Not IS a person or ever HAS BEEN a person. You are trying to use government force to make sure a fetus becomes a person. Not to save a person. You just said it yourself. In order for you to consider it murder you have to hold a belief that fate has determine that person must come into existence. I don't believe that. I don't believe you have to right to force a woman to grow a fertilized egg into a person. She should be able to choose not to until 15 weeks when it becomes a person. "Personhood" has no intrinsic moral sanctity that isn't also possessed by an early stage gestating human. As for using state force, hey as long as I can use whatever force I want against people who are doing things I don't like, I have no compunction against them being governmentally permitted to do things I don't like. The double standard does seem to offend me though. It's okay to own it. It's murder. For the convenience of the few. The only thing I'm down on with abortion is I don't get to watch even more people die. Slowly. Killed one day at a time by the most awful horror story in the universe - old age. 20 or 50 or a hundred agonizing years of watching your end creep closer. The idea of murdering someone who pissed you off - talk about rank amateurism. If you really hate them, leave them the fuck alone and just watch. All of you just got minutes closer to the eternal darkness and you spent that invaluable time arguing with me on the internet.  Tortoise - Cyanide & Happiness Shorts |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 4/11/2024 6:04:11 PM EDT
[#22]
Is a flower, not a flower until it blooms?
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Posted: 4/11/2024 6:30:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: victorgonzales]
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By piccolo: This. I'm SURE that if Suzie Creamcheese wants to get scraped out I'm SURE there will be no shortage of volunteers willing to drag her sorry ass across the border to California where they have abortion mills 50 feet across the border that runs daily specials. Half off and we throw in lunch! All this and more for $29.95. Act now! |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 4/11/2024 6:42:17 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By piccolo: This. I'm SURE that if Suzie Creamcheese wants to get scraped out I'm SURE there will be no shortage of volunteers willing to drag her sorry ass across the border to California where they have abortion mills 50 feet across the border that runs daily specials. Half off and we throw in lunch! All this and more for $29.95. Act now! You rape 'em, we scrape 'em. No fetus can beat us. This might sound great until AZ pulls a Texas and deputizes citizens to go after people who do just what you described. |
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Posted: 4/11/2024 6:46:25 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ThornBooger: Satanic. |
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Posted: 4/11/2024 7:22:06 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Villafuego: This right here ..... seems to be a difficult concept for many to grasp Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Villafuego: Originally Posted By PTR32Sooner: Originally Posted By Ajek: Yeah, God forbid people have principles and stand by them. Might as well just vote Democrat. Afterall, Democrat positions from 10 years ago are currently a big part of the current GOP platform. Giving in to the other side has worked out great. Principles mean jack shit if you don't get elected to office. You're at home with your principles while the liberal that got elected is making law. This right here ..... seems to be a difficult concept for many to grasp Getting elected to office don't mean shit if you don't stand by your principles. Seems to be a difficult concept for many to grasp |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/11/2024 9:48:11 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By crashburnrepeat: I am anti abortion, but good grief the timing on this is retarded. They riled up the baby killers RIGHT before the election. so stupid. The baby killers are ALWAYS riled, the polls say the number one issue among voters is immigration. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/11/2024 9:49:36 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CypressCity: Abortion and weed are the two things that keep Republicans out of office. Such a stupid fucking hill to die on. Abolition and segregation are the two things that keep Republicans out of office. Such a stupid fucking hill to die on. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/11/2024 9:50:50 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By PTR32Sooner: Principles mean jack shit if you don’t get elected to office. You’re at home with your principles while the liberal that got elected is making law. If a politicians principles mean jack shit, why the hell would I support said politician? |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/11/2024 9:54:03 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CypressCity: Maybe I'm reading it wrong on the Arizona ruling but it looks like it will not protect women needing an abortion if their health is in jeopardy. I believe women should be able to cancel their pregnancy if their health or the baby's health is a major concern. I do not support abortion if it's just to terminate a pregnancy. Either way, this ruling will just help elect more democrats. You let women have abortions for "their health" then every woman that wants an abortion will find a willing abortionist to certify that their "health", mental or otherwise, is at risk. Kinda like "medical" marijuana has turned out. Unless some type of strict standard for such exceptions is codified in the law. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/11/2024 9:58:17 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By StaccatoC2: Yes and I still will call my self a constitutional conservative. So? Caitlin Jenner calls himself a "woman" - doesn't make it so. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/11/2024 10:00:29 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BombCrater: I have an idea on how we can get the Left and Right together on this: We will outlaw abortions, but all of the people who are against abortion will be charged to raise the children through 18 years old since you are forcing someone to have a child against their will. How 'bout dat? You people are acting like Liberals thinking you are so noble forcing others to pay for your morals. As pregnancy is a foreseeable consequence of engaging in vaginal sex, if the woman wasn't raped, how do you get "forcing someone to have a child against their will"? She bought the ticket - she takes the ride. |
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CT, USA
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Posted: 4/11/2024 10:17:00 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rick-OShay: As pregnancy is a foreseeable consequence of engaging in vaginal sex, if the woman wasn't raped, how do you get "forcing someone to have a child against their will"? She bought the ticket - she takes the ride. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rick-OShay: Originally Posted By BombCrater: I have an idea on how we can get the Left and Right together on this: We will outlaw abortions, but all of the people who are against abortion will be charged to raise the children through 18 years old since you are forcing someone to have a child against their will. How 'bout dat? You people are acting like Liberals thinking you are so noble forcing others to pay for your morals. As pregnancy is a foreseeable consequence of engaging in vaginal sex, if the woman wasn't raped, how do you get "forcing someone to have a child against their will"? She bought the ticket - she takes the ride. I actually love BombCraters idea. I just need a slight modification - and that is that the new parent gets to shoot the people who said they didn't want their kid. Their choice. Reasonable, and it ensures that everyone takes the matter seriously. |
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Posted: 4/11/2024 10:25:02 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Red_Label: What next after people who strongly oppose abortions concede on the issue? I mean if it's gonna be okay to murder tiny, helpless human beings... where does the next step of civilized devolution go from there? Do I think that many of children born into horrible inner city situations where they're almost guaranteed to grow into a life of crime? Yep. Do I think that snuffing them out before they've grown up and chosen to be predators is Minority Report pre-crime shit? Yep. Better to let them grow up to be ‘teens’ and ‘yutes’ so we can joke about their ‘fathers’ being angry when they act ‘rich and vibrant’ or when they finally ‘FAFO’. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/11/2024 10:26:10 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By -Sabot42-: Fuck anyone who kills a baby and fuck anyone willing to win an election by ignoring baby killing. |
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Posted: 4/12/2024 9:19:47 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rick-OShay: If a politicians principles mean jack shit, why the hell would I support said politician? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rick-OShay: Originally Posted By PTR32Sooner: Principles mean jack shit if you don’t get elected to office. You’re at home with your principles while the liberal that got elected is making law. If a politicians principles mean jack shit, why the hell would I support said politician? See, this is the problem. The meaning went clear over your head. You can have all of you morality principles that you want, but if you dont get elected to office, they mean shit in the grand scheme of things because the person that did get elected to office gets to make the legislation while you are at home bitching about it. Republicans harp on banning abortion, that is a losing strategy and it's been proven time and time again. It's the same reason that Democrats don't campaign on gun control. They saw what happened last time they did something major with that (hint: they got destroyed in the next election). |
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Posted: 4/12/2024 9:37:15 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By PTR32Sooner: See, this is the problem. The meaning went clear over your head. You can have all of you morality principles that you want, but if you dont get elected to office, they mean shit in the grand scheme of things because the person that did get elected to office gets to make the legislation while you are at home bitching about it. Republicans harp on banning abortion, that is a losing strategy and it's been proven time and time again. It's the same reason that Democrats don't campaign on gun control. They saw what happened last time they did something major with that (hint: they got destroyed in the next election). The first step in correcting that, is not further compromising on moral principles. Think about that...the left has us so scared of losing elections half of the right is ready to "compromise" for a hope to win an election, that they also say is hopeless to win because the left will steal it anyways. They also complain "the overton window is shifting left". Once the right is ready to so easily abandon principles...where does it end? "Well, we can't ban child sex reassignment surgery cause we will lose the election" and on and on it goes. |
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Posted: 4/12/2024 1:56:52 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By trapsh00ter99: Na...imo you got it backwards. Losing elections isn't the disease, it's just a symptom of the disease. Only focusing on hiding the symptom (winning the election) does zilch to fix the underlying disease which is the erosion of moral and virtuous behavior in our society that the foundation of the Constitution was based on. The first step in correcting that, is not further compromising on moral principles. Think about that...the left has us so scared of losing elections half of the right is ready to "compromise" for a hope to win an election, that they also say is hopeless to win because the left will steal it anyways. They also complain "the overton window is shifting left". Once the right is ready to so easily abandon principles...where does it end? "Well, we can't ban child sex reassignment surgery cause we will lose the election" and on and on it goes. You still don't get it. The key is getting elected. I'm not saying to compromise, just dont campaign on it. The same way the Dems don't campaign on gun control. Abortion is a losing issue in elections. The fact that Republicans cant figure that out is why they will continue to lose winnable elections. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 4/12/2024 2:33:26 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By trapsh00ter99: Na...imo you got it backwards. Losing elections isn't the disease, it's just a symptom of the disease. Only focusing on hiding the symptom (winning the election) does zilch to fix the underlying disease which is the erosion of moral and virtuous behavior in our society that the foundation of the Constitution was based on. The first step in correcting that, is not further compromising on moral principles. Think about that...the left has us so scared of losing elections half of the right is ready to "compromise" for a hope to win an election, that they also say is hopeless to win because the left will steal it anyways. They also complain "the overton window is shifting left". Once the right is ready to so easily abandon principles...where does it end? "Well, we can't ban child sex reassignment surgery cause we will lose the election" and on and on it goes. Politics is downstream of culture. As long as the left dominates public education, higher education, & big media (the culture factories) the moral debasement will continue on like the value of a federal reserve note. |
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Posted: 4/12/2024 2:35:30 PM EDT
[#40]
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Posted: 4/12/2024 2:58:54 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By osprey21: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/766/Life_is_Short-2640820.jpg This is GD, It's what we do. |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 4/12/2024 3:16:26 PM EDT
[#42]
Here's my take: I don't regard the left as my countrymen, and many of them are outright demonic (ironically for supporting stuff like this)
Therefore, as long as good moral people are forced to cohabitate with them, abortion for them (and other blocks of people who vote overwhelmingly left wing) ought not only to remain legal, but it ought to be praised and encouraged at every turn. They're demons who will raise their demon children to kill you and yours. Abort away, why the hell would I care for them? The only thing better than abortions for them is sterilization. They need to be bred out. MEANWHILE All of us should have no less than 5 kids, even if it means using welfare or other public assistance. You have no higher calling than to make more footsoldiers for our future struggle for survival. When my kids are fighting to avoid getting cattle car'd in the future, every aborted lefty baby is one less antifa commissar trying to genocide my children. This is the textbook definition of "Don't interrupt your enemy when they're making a mistake". They are not my nation, they are not my people. We have to win first. Allowing them to destroy their own demographics is how you do that. If your tribe is so weak you need your host nation to keep your daughters from killing your grand-babies, you have failed to impart any morals, much less your culture, onto your children. Abortion is for the other. YOUR people don't do that kind of thing, EVER. And you shouldn't need Caesar to do it for you. Once we have our own country-- absolutely ban abortion. But that's not where we are right now. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/12/2024 3:26:00 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ajek: Yeah, God forbid people have principles and stand by them. Might as well just vote Democrat. Afterall, Democrat positions from 10 years ago are currently a big part of the current GOP platform. Giving in to the other side has worked out great. How absurdly myopic. It's not giving in, it's evolving with society, and STEALING THEIR THUNDER. Steal the emotionally driven popular votes out from under them. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/12/2024 3:30:38 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rollpin: If not acknowledging the reality of the murder of innocent children as an evil to be banned is what it costs to “win” elections, then the election was never won since the entirety of the “win” is predicated on tolerating child murder. That’s… not a win. It’s a call to heaven for vengeance. To stay intellectually consistent, you should now cut off your nose to spite your face. |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 4/12/2024 3:45:52 PM EDT
[#45]
If abortion is the keystone that saves the republic, then burn it the fuck down.
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Posted: 4/12/2024 3:46:13 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Tao: How absurdly myopic. It's not giving in, it's evolving with society, and STEALING THEIR THUNDER. Steal the emotionally driven popular votes out from under them. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Tao: Originally Posted By Ajek: Yeah, God forbid people have principles and stand by them. Might as well just vote Democrat. Afterall, Democrat positions from 10 years ago are currently a big part of the current GOP platform. Giving in to the other side has worked out great. How absurdly myopic. It's not giving in, it's evolving with society, and STEALING THEIR THUNDER. Steal the emotionally driven popular votes out from under them. 
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Posted: 4/12/2024 4:46:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: rollpin]
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Tao: To stay intellectually consistent, you should now cut off your nose to spite your face. How many of your children, or my children, or any children, would you give to modern Aztecs or Moloch worshippers to “keep” the country (hint: you won’t anyway)? If you’ll flop on murdering the innocent for a semblance of “freedom”, what else will you flop on? Anyone who compromises on baby murder is a gelatinous metaphysical blob of immoral shit. Not even a clump of cells. They’ve given up their claim to personhood in denying it to others. At least be honest and repeat after me: “I’m ok with murdering babies if it keeps the crops good and rain clouds forming. Hail Moloch.” |
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Posted: 4/12/2024 5:55:35 PM EDT
[#48]
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Posted: 4/13/2024 2:49:42 PM EDT
[#49]
 WATCH: @KariLake FULL @FoxBusiness Interview On The Issue of Abortion |
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Posted: 4/28/2024 2:54:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: zentradi]
[#50]
Saw this tweet and it reminded me of this thread. The pastor nailed it. The only coherent pro-life position is that life begins at conception and all life is inherently valuable. If you make exceptions to this rule, your argument loses all consistency and credibility. Christians who compromise on abortion are cowards, frauds, or fools. |
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