Intrepid Freed From NYC River Mud

By RICHARD PYLE
The Associated Press
Tuesday, December 5, 2006; 3:55 PM

NEW YORK -- Finally pulled free from the Hudson River bottom, the historic aircraft carrier USS Intrepid was on the move again Tuesday, passing majestically through New York Harbor, bound for a long-awaited overhaul at a New Jersey shipyard.

Just getting the 900-foot vessel to budge was a triumph _ and a relief _ for the Intrepid's owners, who scrubbed an attempt a month ago when the floating military museum's rudder and four giant propellers got stuck in the mud at the pier that had been the ship's home for the past 24 years.

"This old baby is moving!" exulted Bill White, president of the Intrepid Foundation.

This time, there were no politicians, military bands or other trappings _ just officials, journalists and former crewmen on deck, some of whom cried and gave each other high-fives and hugs as about 200 people ashore cheered.

"I'm 18 again. And I have my beautiful broad right here, my ship Intrepid," said Felix Novelli, who served during World War II.

Three weeks of dredging removed nearly 40,000 cubic yards of muck from under the ship. As happened on Nov. 6, the blue water was churned dark brown Tuesday as powerful tugboats strained to haul the giant vessel from its longtime home.

"If she doesn't move, we are going to jump in and push her," said 84-year-old Joe Cobert, a former crewman.

The engineless carrier was towed stern-first past the Statue of Liberty on a five-mile trip to Bayonne, N.J., where it will undergo a $60 million renovation.

In addition, its pier will be demolished and rebuilt, and some of the carrier's 20-plus vintage aircraft will be restored. Several of the planes, some of them shrink-wrapped, remained on deck as the ship made its way downriver.

As the Intrepid passed the World Trade Center site, about 20 former crewmen unfurled a 50-by-90-foot American flag and stood in a silent tribute.

Residents who had come to know the Intrepid as a permanent gray presence paused to watch from sidewalks, cars and skyscraper windows.

"I love that ship. I live nearby and I have seen it every day for years," said Norm Jacob, an actor.

The Intrepid survived five kamikaze attacks and lost 270 crewmen in the last two years of World War II in the Pacific. It also served off Korea and Vietnam and as a recovery ship for astronauts after their space capsules splashed down at sea.

Decommissioned in the late 1970s, it was destined for the salvage yard when developer Zachary Fisher transformed it into a military museum that opened in 1982, recently drawing upward of 700,000 visitors a year.

PHOTOS
The historic aircraft carrier USS Intrepid is towed down New York's Hudson River, Tuesday, Dec. 5, 2006, a month after a failed attempt. The aircraft carrier-turned-museum was being towed, still backward, down the river toward New York Harbor for a five-mile trip to a shipyard in Bayonne, N.J., where it will undergo renovations. (AP Photo/Richard Drew) (Richard Drew - AP)









A fleet of tugboats work unsuccessfully to free the USS Intrepid (CV-11) from its muddy footing at Pier 86 on the west side of Manhattan, Monday, Nov. 6, 2006 in New York.

The World War II era aircraft carrier, which became the Intrepid Sea, Air & Space Museum in 1982, will eventually be towed to a drydock in Bayonne, N.J. where it will undergo an extensive refurbishment. The carrier is expected to return to Manhattan in 2008. (AP Photo/Jason DeCrow)

Famous Warship Museum Stuck in the Mud
By PAT MILTON, Associated Press Writer
1 hour ago

NEW YORK - The USS Intrepid, the aircraft carrier that survived World War II bomb and kamikaze attacks, got stuck in the mud in the Hudson River on Monday as a fleet of tugboats tried to pull it from its berth for a $60 million renovation project.

The ship _ a huge floating military museum that draws hundreds of thousands of tourists a year _ was supposed to be towed across the river to a dry dock in Bayonne, N.J.

Six tugs pulled with a combined 30,000 horsepower but moved the Intrepid only about 15 feet. Not even an unusually high tide could free the 27,000-ton, 872-foot-long ship from the ooze.

"We had the sun, the moon and the stars in alignment, and it was just a very disappointing day for us," said Bill White, president of the Intrepid Sea, Air & Space Museum.

White said he was unsure whether officials would try again to move the ship, or refurbish the carrier where it sits. The ship was not blocking the Hudson's busy shipping lanes.

The next high tide is Dec. 6, but that will be about a foot lower than Monday's, White said.

The Intrepid has been moored at a pier on Manhattan's West Side for 24 years, during which time silt accumulated as much as 17 feet deep around its keel. The decommissioned ship no longer has engines, but it does still have its four propellers, each about 15 feet in diameter, and they got stuck in the mud.

The Intrepid, launched in 1943, helped bring about the naval defeat of Japan. It suffered seven bomb attacks, five kamikaze strikes and one torpedo hit, losing 270 crewmen.

It also served during the Korean and Vietnam wars and was used to recover Mercury and Gemini astronauts after their space capsules splashed down at sea. The FBI used it as an operation center after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

___

Associated Press Writer Richard Pyle contributed to this report.

... If you ever get the chance, go see that museum. Pretty damn cool.

Actually I am not surprised. cruise ships docked on the opposite slipway and when they would back out into the Hudson the tugs facing out and the engines of the cruise ships in reverse used to throw up quite a bit of mud/silt right up agianst her. I always just assumed they dredged it out periodiclly to prevent her keel from bieng covered.
I would imaginge that there is not much in the way of ballast they could remove either since there is no fuel or engines on board now. so what do they do, get a bigger tug?

tag

They're going to need a really big shoehorn to free that bitch.

Somebody better get out and lock the hubs....

Well this certainly puts a damper on my plans to drive up there to see it next summer

November 08, 2006

Source: Navy experts to help free Intrepid

By Mark D. Faram
Staff writer

Navy salvage experts will join the existing team of military and civilian experts trying to pull the retired aircraft carrier Intrepid from mud in New York Harbor, a Navy official said.

The aged World War II veteran had not been moved from its Manhattan berth in 24 years.

A team of salvage experts from the Navy’s Supervisor of Diving and Salvage, in Washington, D.C., has been dispatched to New York to help determine how best to get the ship unstuck, a Navy official confirmed to Navy Times.

“The Intrepid Museum has asked for our help,” said an official familiar with situation. “We will perform a hydrographic survey of the harbor bottom around the ship to help them determine the best course ahead.”

That survey will map the bottom around the ship and tell experts just what must be moved before the ship will come free.

Six tug boats with a combined 30,000 horsepower attempted to move the ship from her berth Monday.

Though reports say the ship did move 10 feet, it became stuck as the Intrepid’s massive 16-foot diameter screws dug into the harbor bottom and prevented the 27,000-ton ship from getting underway.

The tow was attempted right after a ceremony was conducted to send the ship off on a two-year, $60 million overhaul.

According to the Associated Press, the tugs pulled from the stern for 90 minutes while others pushed from the bow, but could not budge the ship.

It’s not like the problem wasn’t anticipated, either.

The museum had actually dredged 15,000 cubic yards of mud from the bottom and hoped the ship could be pulled easily from its berth into that 35-foot dredged hole, which would have taken it out into open water.

Intrepid, a World War II-era Essex-class aircraft carrier, saw action in the Pacific and survived multiple kamikaze attacks during the war. The worst attack took place Nov. 25, 1944, when two suicide planes ripped through the ship, destroying the flight deck and killing 64 of its crew. The ship was knocked out of action for three months.

Intrepid returned to fight off Okinawa in 1945 before being decommissioned for the first time in 1947. The ship was again decommissioned in 1952 for modernization and then recommissioned in 1954. It survived as an active ship until being decommissioned for the final time in 1974.

New York builder Zach Fisher acquired the ship in the 1970s and transformed it into a museum honoring all who served in the armed forces.

Big military items always cost lots of money. Forever.

They got a Concorde? (Looking at picture)

NTM

It probably wouldn't make a difference, but tell those people to get off the deck!

150 lbs x 30 adds up.

But I doubt it would make a difference

so I assume it's still stuck.
I was there on opening day and half the planes had a ton of Bondo on it

I guess it's a little better to be a civvie and do this to a carrier.

Article 110—Improper hazarding of vessel


Text.

“(a) Any person subject to this chapter who willfully and wrongfully hazards or suffers to be hazarded any vessel of the armed forces shall suffer death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.

(b) Any person subject to this chapter who negligently hazards or suffers to be hazarded any vessel of the armed forces shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.”

Elements.

(1) That a vessel of the armed forces was hazarded in a certain manner; and

(2) That the accused by certain acts or omissions, willfully and wrongfully, or negligently, caused or suffered the vessel to be hazarded.

Explanation.

(1) Hazard. “Hazard” means to put in danger of loss or injury. Actual damage to, or loss of, a vessel of the armed forces by collision, stranding, running upon a shoal or a rock, or by any other cause, is conclusive evidence that the vessel was hazarded but not of the fact of culpability on the part of any particular person. “Stranded” means run aground so that the vessel is fast for a time. If the essel “touches and goes,”she is not stranded; if she “touches and sticks,” she is. A shoal is a sand, mud, or gravel bank or bar that makes the water shallow.

(2) Willfully and wrongfully. As used in this article, “willfully” means intentionally and “wrongfully” means contrary to law, regulation, lawful order, or custom.

(3) Negligence. “Negligence” as used in this article means the failure to exercise the care, prudence, or attention to duties, which the interests of the government require a prudent and reasonable person to exercise under the circumstances. This negligence may consist of the omission to do something the prudent and reasonable person would have done, or the doing of something which such a person would not have done under the circumstances. No person is relieved of culpability who fails to perform such duties as are imposed by the general responsibilities of that person’s grade or rank, or by the customs of the service for the safety and protection of vessels of the armed forces, simply because these duties are not specifically enumerated in a regulation or order. However, a mere error in judgment that a reasonably able person might have committed under the same circumstances does not constitute an offense under this article.

(4) Suffer. “To suffer” means to allow or permit. A ship is willfully suffered to be hazarded by one who, although not in direct control of the vessel, knows a danger to be imminent but takes no steps to prevent it, as by a plotting officer of a ship under way who fails to report to the officer of the deck a radar target which is observed to be on a collision course with, and dangerously close to, the ship. A suffering through neglect implies an omission to take such measures as were appropriate under the circumstances to prevent a foreseeable danger.

Hopefully this wasn't involved too

Article 111–Drunken or reckless operation of vehicle, aircraft, or vessel

Note: The requirements of this offense were changed by President George Bush, by Executive Order 12473, on October 14, 2005. Specifically, the blood-alcohol limits were changed from 0.10 to the levels shown in subsection b, below.

Text.

“Any person subject to this chapter who—

(1) operates or physically controls any vehicle, aircraft, or vessel in a reckless or wanton manner or while impaired by a substance described in section 912a(b) of this title ( Article 112a(b)), or

(2) operates or is in actual physical control of any vehicle, aircraft, or vessel while drunk or when the alcohol concentration in the person's blood or breath is equal to or exceeds the level prohibited under subsection (b), as shown by chemical analysis, shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

Subsection b:

(1) For purposes of subsection (a), the applicable level of the alcohol concentration in a person's blood or breath is as follows:

     (A) In the case of the operation or control of a vehicle, aircraft, or vessel in the United States, the level is the blood alcohol concentration prohibited under the law of the State in which the conduct occurred, except as may be provided under paragraph (b)(2) for conduct on a military installation that is in more than one State, or the prohibited alcohol concentration level specified in paragraph (b)(3).

     (B) In the case of the operation or control of a vehicle, aircraft, or vessel outside the United States, the level is the blood alcohol concentration specified in paragraph (b)(3) or such lower level as the Secretary of Defense may by regulation prescribe.

(2) In the case of a military installation that is in more than one State, if those States have different levels for defining their prohibited blood alcohol concentrations under their respective State laws, the Secretary concerned for the installation may select one such level to apply uniformly on that installation.

(3) For purposes of paragraph (b)(1), the level of alcohol concentration prohibited in a person's blood is 0.10 grams or more of alcohol per 100 milliliters of blood and with respect to alcohol concentration in a person's breath is 0.10 grams or more of alcohol per 210 liters of breath, as shown by chemical analysis."

(4) In this subsection, the term "United States" includes the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, Guam, and American Samoa, and the term "State" includes each of those jurisdictions."

Elements

(1) That the accused was operating or in physical control of a vehicle, aircraft, or vessel; and

(2) That while operating or in physical control of a vehicle, aircraft, or vessel, the accused:

     (a) did so in a wanton or reckless manner, or

     (b) was drunk or impaired, or

     (c) the alcohol concentration level in the accused's blood or breath, as shown by chemical analysis, was equal to or exceeded the applicable level provided in subsection b above.

(3) That the accused thereby caused the vehicle, aircraft, or vessel to injure a person.

Explanation.

(1) Vehicle. See - 1 U.S.C. § 4.

(2) Vessel. See- 1 U.S.C. § 3.

(3) Aircraft. Any contrivance used or designed for transportation in the air.

(4) Operates. Operating a vehicle, aircraft, or vessel includes not only driving or guiding a vehicle, aircraft or vessel while it is in motion, either in person or through the agency of another, but also setting of its motive power in action or the manipulation of its controls so as to cause the particular vehicle, aircraft or vessel to move.

(5) Physical control and actual physical control. These terms as used in the statute are synonymous. They describe the present capability and power to dominate, direct or regulate the vehicle, vessel, or aircraft, either in person or through the agency of another, regardless of whether such vehicle, aircraft, or vessel is operated. For example, the intoxicated person seated behind the steering wheel of a vehicle with the keys of the vehicle in or near the ignition but with the engine not turned on could be deemed in actual physical control of that vehicle. However, the person asleep in the back seat with the keys in his or her pocket would not be deemed in actual physical control. Physical control necessarily encompasses operation.

(6) Drunk or impaired. “Drunk” and “impaired” mean any intoxication which is sufficient to impair the rational and full exercise of the mental or physical faculties. The term drunk is used in relation to intoxication by alcohol. The term impaired is used in relation to intoxication by a substance described in - Article 112(a), Uniform Code of Military Justice.

So how much does it cost rent a rowboat and buy a simple fishfinder depthfinder?    There are numbers on the ship that say much further it goes down.  If that's deeper than the water, you shouldn't try to tow the ship through it.  

I wonder if the Tugmaster, Towmaster and Pilots are properly licensed and if their insurance will cover this.  And if not, wanna bet on when they will next get a job in their career field?

I heard Mr Dutton wrote a nice book, that these guys oughta read in their soon to be extensive spare time

Those guys at the stern are standing in a very good place to get killed. I once had a 2.5" tow wire break on me while towing a jackup and the shockline on the rig's end whipped it right up into the jackup's bow leg.

that wasn't very pretty....

on another tug one time we had the towline(synthetic, not wire) snap and wrap itself around the bridge.

Funny I was thinking the same, thing...lucky they didn't break that hawser... I didn't see much of a "fleet" of tug boats. I see two with any serious HP.  I'm surprised Bouchard would even bother helping out... I'm sure he charged a pretty penny either way.

Quoted: They got a Concorde? (Looking at picture) NTM

Yes, they have a Concord.
They pulled the A-3 (and a couple other aircraft, the A-5 Viggi is one) they had on the deck to make room for the Concord.

Go figure, they pulled the second A-3 ever made (XA3D-1), (the Navy's first purpose built nuclear attack aircraft), from the deck of the USS Intrepid, where the A-3 used to operate from and replaced it with a civilian jet aircraft.

What's worse is that while the Concord sits, never to fly there are still 8 operational A-3's serving our country with L-3 Communications 54 YEARS after its first flight.

bump for info

Quoted: They got a Concorde? (Looking at picture) NTM

A-5 Vigilante

ETA: Oh shit nevermind. Didn't see the first pic.

Pics of naval warships are cool and seeing them in person are even more cool.

"In addition, its pier will be demolished and rebuilt, and some of the carrier's 20-plus vintage aircraft will be restored. Several of the planes, some of them shrink-wrapped, remained on deck as the ship made its way downriver."


How in the world do you shrink wrap an airplane?

Quoted: "In addition, its pier will be demolished and rebuilt, and some of the carrier's 20-plus vintage aircraft will be restored. Several of the planes, some of them shrink-wrapped, remained on deck as the ship made its way downriver." How in the world do you shrink wrap an airplane?

same way they do it in the desert at Davis

Quoted: Quoted: "In addition, its pier will be demolished and rebuilt, and some of the carrier's 20-plus vintage aircraft will be restored. Several of the planes, some of them shrink-wrapped, remained on deck as the ship made its way downriver." How in the world do you shrink wrap an airplane? same way they do it in the desert at Davis

A whole bunch of plastic wrap and a blow torch...

Where did the sr-71 or a-12 or whatever it was go?

Quoted: Quoted: They got a Concorde? (Looking at picture) NTM Yes, they have a Concord. They pulled the A-3 (and a couple other aircraft, the A-5 Viggi is one) they had on the deck to make room for the Concord. Go figure, they pulled the second A-3 ever made (XA3D-1), (the Navy's first purpose built nuclear attack aircraft), from the deck of the USS Intrepid, where the A-3 used to operate from and replaced it with a civilian jet aircraft. What's worse is that while the Concord sits, never to fly there are still 8 operational A-3's serving our country with L-3 Communications 54 YEARS after its first flight.

Raytheon (I think) operates a small fleet of A-3's out of Van Nuys in southern california.  Every time I fly into there I park next to one of them.

-Gator

The Blackbird is still aboard.....look close at the pics.

Quoted: Where did the sr-71 or a-12 or whatever it was go?

Oh, the A-12 is hiding there in the shadows!

Here's a shot of Intrepid I took from the top of Rockefellar Center back in April...

That's no Concorde,  but there's an SR-71 on the deck.


I'm pretty sure that no SR-71 actually did carrier operations.   While I think a museum
that can get a Blackbird is very lucky,  I think that a carrier museum should carry only
aircraft that are carrier qualified.     And ideally,  would only represent types that were on
that carrier during its service life.


CJ

Quoted: That's no Concorde,  but there's an SR-71 on the deck. I'm pretty sure that no SR-71 actually did carrier operations.   While I think a museum that can get a Blackbird is very lucky,  I think that a carrier museum should carry only aircraft that are carrier qualified.     And ideally,  would only represent types that were on that carrier during its service life. CJ

Intrepid has a number of different aircraft that it did not carry.  Such as the F16 and F14.

I've been to Intrepid no less than 6 times, from the summer it first opened, to last year.  

Quoted: That's no Concorde,  but there's an SR-71 on the deck. I'm pretty sure that no SR-71 actually did carrier operations.   While I think a museum that can get a Blackbird is very lucky,  I think that a carrier museum should carry only aircraft that are carrier qualified.     And ideally,  would only represent types that were on that carrier during its service life. CJ

Actually, that's the second production A-12 Blackbird, similiar to the SR-71, but not the same (AR-15 to AR-10, for example).  It's a common mistake.

List of all A-12's

I find it very hard to believe the -71 managed to land on a carrier, or even take off....some info would be neat to have if it was true...

Quoted: I find it very hard to believe the -71 managed to land on a carrier, or even take off....some info would be neat to have if it was true...

Don't try to belive.  

Ever heard of a crane???  

ETA: From Intrepid Sea, Air & Space Museum web site:

The The Intrepid Museum maintains an extensive aircraft collection spanning the history of flight in the second half of the twentieth-century, from World War II to the latest supersonic jet fighters. The hangar deck has an original TBM Avenger torpedo bomber (on long term loan from the National Museum of Aviation) of the type that originally flew from the Intrepid during World War II. On the flight deck and portside aircraft elevator, America’s modern military cutting edge is represented by a Navy F-14 Tomcat (on long term loan from the National Museum of Naval Aviation), an Air Force F-16 Fighting Falcon (on long term loan from the National Museum of the United States Air Force), a Marine Corps aV-8C Harrier (on long term loan from the United States Marine Corps Air-Ground Museum), and an A-12 Blackbird spy plane(on long term loan from the National Museum of the United States Air Force) formerly in service with the CIA. During your visit, you’ll also find international air power on display with a British F-1 Scimitar (on long term loan from the National Museum of Naval Aviation, Royal Navy of Great Britain), a French Entendard IV-M, and a Polish MiG-21. The Intrepid’s helicopter collection includes two Vietnam-era UH-1 Hueys, a Marine Corps AH-1J sea Cobra (on long term loan from the United States Marine Corps Air-Ground Museum), and a fully restored Army AH-1G Cobra gunship. You can browse through selections from our collection using the drop-down menu (above to the left, or below) — but to truly appreciate their beauty and design, and the history of military aviation, you’ll have to pay us a visit and see for yourself!

whats the size of the intrepid compared to our modern carriers? Looks smaller to me.

Quoted: whats the size of the intrepid compared to our modern carriers? Looks smaller to me.

Much smaller.

My mistake, I thought that they had put the Concorde on the flight deck.

I will have to go check that out when it returns.

Quoted: whats the size of the intrepid compared to our modern carriers? Looks smaller to me.

USS John C. Stennis CVN 74
Nimitz class aircraft carrier
Overall Length: 1092 ft  
Waterline Length: 1040 ft
Extreme Beam: 252 ft  
Waterline Beam: 134 ft
Maximum Navigational Draft: 42 ft  
Draft Limit: 41 ft
Light Displacement: 78453 tons  
Full Displacement: 103300 tons
Dead Weight: 24847 tons
Propulsion: Steam turbines, 2 A4W reactors, 4 shafts, 280,000 shp, 30+ knots

USS Intrepid CV 11 (CVA 11 - CVS 11)
Essex class aircraft carrier
Overall Length: 899 ft  
Waterline Length: 820 ft
Extreme Beam: 192 ft  
Waterline Beam: 103 ft
Maximum Navigational Draft: 31 ft  
Draft Limit: 31 ft
Light Displacement: 29600 tons  
Full Displacement: 41900 tons
Dead Weight: 12300 tons
Propulsion: Steam turbines, 8 565 psi boilers, 4 shafts, 150,000 shp, 33+ kts

So they finally unstuck the old bitch, eh?

Cool!

Quoted: My mistake, I thought that they had put the Concorde on the flight deck. static.flickr.com/45/180821212_4f738a45a0_b.jpg

That sub is the USS Growler, on the north side of the pier.  I took a tour of that, and then wondered what all the hub-bub about cramped quarters on a sub was all about.  

Quoted: Quoted: My mistake, I thought that they had put the Concorde on the flight deck. static.flickr.com/45/180821212_4f738a45a0_b.jpg That sub is the USS Growler, on the north side of the pier.  I took a tour of that, and then wondered what all the hub-bub about cramped quarters on a sub was all about.

Because you can't leave the sub when it's underway. Imagine being in the same tube for weeks on end and NOT seeing the outside environment. Hell, even when you can see the outside world you still get sick of seeing the same motherfuckers day in and day out.

You may think you're cramped in a rig, and you are. However, it's nothing compared to being on month four of a deployment.

I need to take my girlfriend there.  I have always wanted to tour that thing.

Max

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: My mistake, I thought that they had put the Concorde on the flight deck. static.flickr.com/45/180821212_4f738a45a0_b.jpg That sub is the USS Growler, on the north side of the pier.  I took a tour of that, and then wondered what all the hub-bub about cramped quarters on a sub was all about.   Because you can't leave the sub when it's underway. Imagine being in the same tube for weeks on end and NOT seeing the outside environment. Hell, even when you can see the outside world you still get sick of seeing the same motherfuckers day in and day out. You may think you're cramped in a rig, and you are. However, it's nothing compared to being on month four of a deployment.

I've had to share my normal living space in the truck with students for months on end.  I can very easily understand how it would be underway.

I remember in the movie "Crimson Tide"  Gene Hackman announced that any member of his crew who disagreed with their orders to launch could leave "right now"

I don't recall anyone taking him up on that, though.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: My mistake, I thought that they had put the Concorde on the flight deck. static.flickr.com/45/180821212_4f738a45a0_b.jpg That sub is the USS Growler, on the north side of the pier.  I took a tour of that, and then wondered what all the hub-bub about cramped quarters on a sub was all about.   Because you can't leave the sub when it's underway. Imagine being in the same tube for weeks on end and NOT seeing the outside environment. Hell, even when you can see the outside world you still get sick of seeing the same motherfuckers day in and day out. You may think you're cramped in a rig, and you are. However, it's nothing compared to being on month four of a deployment. I've had to share my normal living space in the truck with students for months on end.  I can very easily understand how it would be underway. I remember in the movie "Crimson Tide"  Gene Hackman announced that any member of his crew who disagreed with their orders to launch could leave "right now" I don't recall anyone taking him up on that, though.

My father-in-law used to have student drivers as well.

The difference is you can walk away at a stop and just get away from that person. Now imagine if you had 150 students that everytime you walked away from one you'd run into 5 others.

Not only that, but in a rig you can see further than, say, 20 feet. You can't do that on a sub too much.

Hell, aboard DANIEL WEBSTER, the longest distance I saw without a periscope was about 125 feet, and that was the Missile Compartment. When we first stepped out of the boat in Lisbon and looked across the bay, we actually got a bit dizzy.

Quoted: Not only that, but in a rig you can see further than, say, 20 feet. You can't do that on a sub too much. Hell, aboard DANIEL WEBSTER, the longest distance I saw without a periscope was about 125 feet, and that was the Missile Compartment. When we first stepped out of the boat in Lisbon and looked across the bay, we actually got a bit dizzy.

Did you ever find yourself walking down the pier after an underway deployment and walking as if the pier was acting like the deck?

Come to think of it, a bubblehead spent a lot less time rolling on top of the waves.

Quoted: Quoted: Not only that, but in a rig you can see further than, say, 20 feet. You can't do that on a sub too much. Hell, aboard DANIEL WEBSTER, the longest distance I saw without a periscope was about 125 feet, and that was the Missile Compartment. When we first stepped out of the boat in Lisbon and looked across the bay, we actually got a bit dizzy. Did you ever find yourself walking down the pier after an underway deployment and walking as if the pier was acting like the deck?

Oh hell yes!