I was talking to a marine about different slings, and he began describing some stance related techniques such as "tuck this elbow while allowing the other to sharply angle out, etc." ... I can't remember some of what he said, and was wondering if anyone who has attended some of the tactical training camps could give a few tips on stance and gun handling.

I'm new to the AR and have only shot mine once, but I found myself having trouble reacquiring the target after each prior shot (the small amount of muzzle rise and kick was enough to toss my aim off for the following shot).  I'm really interested in learning a stance and handling combination that will allow me to acquire and stay on target throughout controlled single shot bursts (quick trigger pulls).  I have a feeling to do this I may have to figure out the right sling to accompany technique as well.  

Anything anybody could tell me will be greatly appreciated- I'm looking for a starting point to build on...

If you're near Greensboro/Burlington area, I can give you a class.

I was a Unit Armorer for 2 years, and gave many classes on how to properly employ the M16A2 at the range and also Close Quarters drills (MOUT training), as well as briefings during CLFX exersizes and rotations to JRTC.

In other words, I've got lots of useless knowlage about training, and plenty of free time, so if you want, I'm available.

Remember, I know the Army way, and also the quote "There's the right way, the wrong way, and the Army way..."

He was teaching you offhand target shooting stance.  Not CQB stance.  People call sticking your elbow out "chicken winging" and it has several negative effects.

You must be bladed, thus sideways and not able to move well.
You are sideways and expose both lungs to a single shot coming from your target.
Your elbow will catch door frames becasue its sticking way out.
Your elbow will be exposed prematurely when turnuing a corner on your weak side.
Your elbow up means if you have armor on your shoulder to cover the hole in the side of your vest there is a direct shot to your vitals exposed.
Blading to taget takes rifle plates and turns them away from your target.

There are other negatives but you get the idea. He was showing you how ot have to most accuracy at a distance with a fixed stock M16A2 in the standing position for individual fired shots.




For CQB you will be more sqare to the target, pull the stock further to centerline, keep both elbows down, lean forward into the gun, etc.  Much less accurate at long range but better recoil control, lower profile, easier to move, etc.

BAD





GOOD

5th picture above w/ the AR-15: WRONG.

6th & 7th - correct.

See the difference in the shooters' LEFT hand placement?

Don't grab the forward grip or the magazine like its a handle bar or a steering wheel. That is incorrect.

The proper grip can be seen here from a top tactical trainer who has trained military headed to Iraq:

http://www.shootingusa.com/PRO_TIPS/JARRETT2/jarrett2.html

I use thumb up, other use thumb wrapped because they put their light on that side.  I dont think one is right or wrong, just personal preference.

Stand square to the target.

With your strong foot, take about a half step back; your feat should about shoulder width apart

Slightly bend your knees and lean forward. (fighting stance)

With your strong hand, pull the grip into your shoulder while tucking your elbow down into your body. (you will fell the 'toe' of the slide up a little into a pocket between your peck and shoulder)

With your support hand grip the forearm (or vert grip, what ever you have) and pull the weapon back into your body while tucking your elbow in under the rifle into your body.

Now, while doing the above, you are going apply an isometric 'twisting' force with your hands...think of it like you are wringing out a towel, while pulling in the weapon to your body.

With nose to charge handle fire and hold the trigger back (do not release it) then EASE the trigger forward until you hear/feel a click, then squeeze the trigger again and fire.  This is called "ease to reset" and with practice you can fast accurate follow-up shots.

The point of the described position is that all of the recoil energy is being applied perpendicular into your body and thus mitigating muzzle rise.  This position also allows you to move in all directions while maintaining an accurate, stable shooting platform.


When I say pull, apply tension etc...I am not talking about applying all your strength, just a tight not overstraining flex.



For sling I say get a single point.  At Gunsite every guy who showed up with a 3 point had a single point on his weapon by day 2 or 3.  While it sacrifices a little bit on rigidity, it more than makes for it in maneuverability and versatility.


Edited for 8 billion spelling errors.

Per AMU, as I remember my class:

Standing, facing target at an angle or sideways.

For right handed shooter:
Left elbow cocked into side of belly, hand open cradleing handguard with loose tension. No death grips...adds instability.
Buttstock set in right shoulder high, almost resting on the shoulder blade. Shooting arm down, tucked loosely into the side.

The right arm-elbow should only be in the upper condtion with larger calibers like a Garand or '03 Springfield.

Also, it needs to be a firm position, feet comfortably spread apart for a stable base. I've also heard a litle back lean is a good thing..to get the center mass weight of the gun more in line with your legs, rather than hanging off the front in a possible "stoop-over" position.

The AMU puts out a good competitor's guide as does the CMP folks. Lotsa' Highpower info on-line. "Tactical Stance" just isn' seen at most high-power competitions. And the guys winning often look like they've gotten their positions in place with protractors and levels!

Good info here...thanks.

One question...I'm 6'2" and I really like my A2 stock until I try to get square to the target.  Is this directly attributable to the longer stock or is this not enough info to make a decision?  I've been thinking of getting an A1 to shorten the LOP.

Any thoughts?

The A2 stock is pretty much too long for 95% of people in any stance except for prone...where is where that stock came from (competition shooters).

Fixed stocks are obsolete IMO anyway, so if you can you should upgrade to an adjustable...I wish Magpul was still doing the 93.

The stance I was describing is for fast, close (maybe 100 and in), dynamic shooting.  Some call it CQB stance.  But I use it out to 200 all the time so YMMV.

ETA: Here is one pic of me shooting 200 yard poppers  at Gunsite, using the described position.  My arms are as tucked as far ascan be because of all the gear and crap on my body.  I know it is a poor picture but I will look around for a better one.




Maybe this one is better?

Quoted: 5th picture above w/ the AR-15: WRONG. 6th & 7th - correct. See the difference in the shooters' LEFT hand placement? Don't grab the forward grip or the magazine like its a handle bar or a steering wheel. That is incorrect. The proper grip can be seen here from a top tactical trainer who has trained military headed to Iraq: http://www.shootingusa.com/PRO_TIPS/JARRETT2/jarrett2.html

It's not WRONG. It is simply different from Jarret's style. Of all of the combat experienced soldiers and Marines I've seen who use a VFG, I've never seen any of them use the hold Jarret is using. The VFG hold Todd is using is simply adapted from the support hand pistol grip he uses on his race guns. There is a BIG difference in the techniques used by professional shooters running 20 second courses shooting steel plates, and the tactics employed by professional warriors who have had been in many hours of armed combat.



Notice that Jarret is using a "race" type carbine. C-More sight, compensator, etc. He also appears to have a A.R.M.S. type A2 pistol grip VFG which is angled sharply forward. This type of VFG is largely eschewed for the straight "Swiss" style which works much better with the natural angles of the hand, wrist, and arm.

I don't think any stance is right or wrong as long as its effective and you make your target w/o hurting yourself of anyone.  

Quoted: I don't think any stance is right or wrong as long as its effective and you make your target w/o hurting yourself of anyone.

+1 on that, but some things can and will improve your shooting when it comes to stances but it is not a rigidly set forth stance you must use tho.

Typically most tactical schools teach keeping your elbows tucked in close to your body as that allows you to move around in tight spaces more easily. It is still very accurate and stable if done properly.

As far as forward grips go, gripping the magazine is a bad idea.

But gripping the magazine well.....that is perfectly acceptable, and can even help you get rid of a magazine quicker.

As far as stocks go, I like the standard A2 stock. It mounts the best for me. Smaller folks or folks with shorter arms may prefer adjustables.

Originally posted by DM1975

+1 on that, but some things can and will improve your shooting when it comes to stances but it is not a rigidly set forth stance you must use tho.

And that right there is the the key. I use different stances based on what type of shooting I'm doing. If I'm shooting the Ole' M1A on a CMP course with a Heavy shooting jacket, I'm using the bladed stance  and my right elbow is extended straight out to form a Pocket for the stock.

I'f I'm doing more Dynamic close in style shooting I use more of a fighting stance with the elbows down pulling the weapon in with my feet shoulder width a part.

Don't get locked on anyone as the bible. A smart shooter has ALOT of tools in his/her tool box. Learn them so you can use them when you need to.






Here's a shot that shows a squared up stance. notice I lead with my left foot a little. Elbows down and I'm pulling the weapon straight back to manage the recoil.



Heres more of s side view. Notice I'm not totally squared up, I lead with my left foot a little, But I'm bending at just above the hip to maintain good center of gravity. You can engage easily out to 100m's in this stance and with a little practice out to 200M  But a better tool past 100 would be down in the prone which is more stable then reverting to a classic Bladed stance using the "chicken wing" method.

No right or wrong, just some tools to use and thing about.

Hold that weapon in the way that best lets you hit what you are shooting at. (within reason)

If you're out trying to have fun... who cares?

The old saying goes... "When the shooting is over, 10 years from now, will anyone care what stance you used, what optics were on the gun, or how many rounds you fired? No. All that matters is winning at all costs."

I work at what I consider to be a "top training center", on par or in some cases beyond the larger names like Blackwater and Gunsite. I also work with "Top trainers" who, in a combative shooting scenario with bullets coming back, are as good or better than Mr. Jarrett.  We too have trained many folks headed for the box including DoS, DoD, and civilians.

You need to remember these things about your stance, first. Comfortable, mobile, and flexible. Try to find the position from the waist up that is the best. You'll be using it for pistol and rifle, probably shotgun as well.

The squared off position works for a couple of reasons. The first is body armor. The plates are on the front (and back) and that's what you want in between you and the person shooting at you. Secondly, having the stock more on your chest and not in the shoulder pocket will allow you to properly manage recoil, even in FA mode. Finally, the body armor, gear, and other myriad crap that you must carry certainly requires a collapsible stock for you to get the best cheek to stock weld possible.  That is one of the reasons collapsible stocks are popular, not just because they look cool. Besides, when you're at creep speed, almost any stance will work. When you're darn near running, this one I'm talking about is the only way I've found that will allow you to still put rounds on target, constantly.

Shooting in a bladed stance, with your elbow up, isn't wrong. It is intended for an entirely different situation. Find what works for you and improve on it regularly. If I can offer assistance to you or others, offline, please don't hesitate to pm or email me, whichever I've set up for use here.

I can't thank you guys enough for all the info posted up, this is exactly what I was hoping for!  I tried a couple things while I was shooting for the first time, but after reading through everyones info and considering some technique/situation differences, theres a good likelihood I'll be able to develop a solid starting point.  I really hope to one day attend some civilian classes just for the sake of learning, but for the time being this info helps me out a ton.  Thanks again for all the replies!

another cudos! good thread.. I've never had any training hand or rifle. I've somehow managed to fall into the proper stance(s) out of practice. good stuff to try next time out as I just added a vertical grip and have yet to use it.