![Bravo Company BCM](/images/2016/banners/sticky/BCM_StickyBarAd_225x40.gif)
![Login](/images/2016/spacer.gif)
Posted: 6/28/2008 9:23:43 PM EDT
What do ya'll think? AR15 or AR10? Educate me please, as I know nothing about SPR's or any type of precision AR. Pictures of your set up is a plus. Thanks guys!!!
![]() |
|
|
|
|
When I was deciding on my varmint build, I figured I would need to do a ton of shooting with my rifle to master it and get up to sniper quality. Then I would have to shoot regularly to maintain that level of consistency.
With 6.8mm and .308 this was not financially worthwhile. However, I hope to get a 6.8mm upper just to keep around the house and in case I want to hunt heavier game. The low recoil allows fast target acquisition and quick follow-up shots. I also enjoy the ability to put a Ciener kit in the rifle and shoot .22 for practice and possibly squirrel hunting. Aguila SubSonic Sniper 60gr .22 ammo is perfect for my 1/9 twist and is very quiet, and can be made even quieter than the hammer falling with a suppresser. This seems to be a strong tactical advantage in my opinion. The Ciener with SSS allows for even faster follow up shots, and I can fairly easily shoot 20-30rds into a 6in area in only a few seconds at 50 yards. The recoil is non-existent. I prefer shooting my .223 Ar-15 over my M14, but I do not have any experience yet with the 6.8mm |
|
What's that hand grip you've got on there? Looks comfy as heck. |
|
|
I lean towards the AR-10 setup for long range work unless you are only shooting at paper targets. Will a 5.56mm reach out there? Sure, they've been sucessfully using it in matches for years and even in the Marines you are shooting out to 500 meters on the KD course. However, while the 5.56mm may reach out that far, what kind of damage it does at those ranges is another story and why I prefer a 7.62mm rifle. Now you have an accurate round plus the power to reach out there as well as do some damage to targets made out of more than paper.
|
|
That looks like a Badger Ordnance Stabilizer. |
|
|
![]()
+1 for AR10. |
|
|
![]()
The pistol grip is one I made myself. |
||
|
![]()
Could you give us the specs on both of those. |
|
|
|
|
I would build something in 6.5 or 30 cal. I'm thinking:
6.5 Grendel 260 Rem 308 300WSM 260 Rem and 300 WSM are my favorites of those. Both require an AR 10 platform. The 260 might work out best because you can use a standard AR10 BCG. Key pieces for this kind of build would be(in order): US Optics scope Weight - Yes nothing helps you hit at long range like weight. The rifle with scope should weight ~13 - 15 lbs complete with scope and accesories. Lilja or Krieger stainless barrel blank with extension fit to your bolt and other machining by a top quality gunsmith - 24+" Tactical Intervention Specialties sling Magpul stock - you will probably need to customize this to add enough weight here. Smooth bottom forend for sand bags and/or a bipod. |
|
![]()
+1 |
|
|
|
If you go with the .308 over the .223 on the premise that you will get longer range out of it be sure your scope will accomodate the added distance.
My .223 Ar15 scope has 80 moa elevation adjustment. So I have a 40 up and 40 down adjustment range. If my ballistics calculations are correct thae I can adjust it out to ~750 yards. That is pretty close to the max range anyone would ever want to shoot with a .223. I just ran a quick ballistics calculation on the .308 and with my scope it will only accomadate ~1000 yards with a 175gr bullet at 2800fps. Without more adjustment range or a slanted rail I would only get about 200 yards more out of a .308. Granted the .308 will hold up to the wind better, all factors considered I havn't been disappointed in going with the .223. I if I want more range, I will slap on a Bohica .50cal upper and I am good to go lol |
|
|
![]()
That is just pure BADD ASS!!!! ![]() |
|
|
![]()
just wanted to say...beautiful rig! ![]() |
|
|
Without a doubt, probably the most informative reply on what most noobs need to know about the ar difference from bolts. These are the outlying differences and the pros and cons on any situation always take place. One a call, I would always pick My ar for many reasons, the main one being follow up shots. If you train properly, you can send 30 rounds down range in a moa group in less than a minute. Try doing any part of that equation with a bolt. In my book, never trust one round to take down any thing. Plinking, varminting, or flat out judgement calls on criminal, never trust one round.
![]()
|
|
|
Thanks.
BTW - that AR I built up is basically an homage to DM1975's beautiful rig which I'm still jealous of. |
|
![]()
Just to keep facts as facts... a 168 grain Sierra .30 bullet traveling at 2750 from the barrel and the 77 grain .223 round both with a muzzle velocity of 2750 do not have the same wind drift as was stated. The 77 grain ammo has 40% more wind drift. If you compare 168 grain at 2650 and 77 grain at 2750 the 77 grain ammo has 27.8" wind drift at 500 yards with a full value 10mph wind. The 168 at 2650 has 21.8" at 500 yards so that would be 27% more wind drift. 27-40% more wind drift is not "the same" at all. Additionally the .223 is not a lot flatter shooting comparing 168 grain to 77 grain ammo. Sure there is a TINY advantage inside 100 yards but by before 200 yards the slower 168 grain ammo has already dropped less. These are unalterable facts. Just becasue someone is mistaking a height over bore being greater as much flatter shooting (or is unintentionally misrepresenting that fact is the difference instead of the ammo) does not make it so whether they are a LE sniper or not. The advantage for a .223 AR is MINISCULE under 200 yards when you compare 77 grain ammo to 168 grain .308 ammo. The .308 has less drop at 200 yards and all further ranges in this scenario as well and it becomes a bigger difference the further the shot. Over penetration? Use 155 AMAX. For 200 yards and beyond .308 rules .223 from a ballisitcs perspecitve both externally and terminally. This comparison I quoted read oddly because of the height over bore differences for the two guns. a .308 AR would have been superior to the .223 AR but the height over bore issues allowed for less elevation clicks and the false appearance of less drop. The windage was never the same. |
|
|
![]()
Actually the Army just adopted a semi auto sniper rifle based on the Knights SR25. I use a GAP AR10 in 308 as my sniper rifle. Semi auto sniper rifles have a lot of advantages over bolt guns. Bolt guns still maintain a accuracy edge but their are many roles a semi auto sniper rifle does much much better. The day of all sniper rifles being bolt guns has long since passed. Pat |
|
|
![]()
ETA - full version... Knights M110 Sniper Rifle - Future Weapons Full Version of Episode Enjoy! Sakic #19 ![]() |
||
|
![]()
Love the rifle |
|
|
|
![]()
Um - thanks. I guess the fact that me and the guys I was at the school with were sitting there on the line comparing what we had to dial in for the present wind conditions has nothing to do with your "facts" - but it is what happened. Also, as stated in my post (which you apparently read with an eye toward your precious ballistics tables instead of what i was actually saying), almost all LE sniping is done withing 50 yards. Please feel free to shit talk me at will while puffing up your chest to make yourself feel important. Great work. I'll still take my AR on callouts, and you can still sit there and crunch your numbers on your home computers. |
||
|
![]()
6.8 SPC: ![]() |
|
|
![]()
Yeah, it is a awesome rig, and yes- I have shot it...but not as well as DM did. ![]() |
|
|
![]()
+1 I got it.....Thanks ![]() |
|||
|
![]()
That 6.8 you have is the reaon for me wanting to change mine out. Very nice rifle and it shoots GREAT... |
||
|
![]()
Wow. I just checked out Fulton's .308's. Nice rifles and I like that they take DPMS mags, they seem to be the cheapest and best option out there for .308 mags at the moment. Are the lowers alone actually going for 700 or can they actually be had for less than MSRP like most other guns? |
|
|
![]()
Like I said you are confusing height over bore with what the bullet actually does. A .308 AR will drop less than a .223 AR with the same optic height. What you saw in your come ups was strictly due to height over bore. With a 155 grain AMAX the 77 grain .223 loading does not even have a reduced amount of drop even from the barrel. It wont yaw so late it cant fragment in smaller statured people or peripheral shots like 77 grain 5.56, has over twice the permanant cavity, etc. The only drawback is recoil which you stated was a reason for choosing the 5.56 load and its a reasonable decision. As I said I just wanted the facts to be clear for everyone who is reading. You made it seem as though 5.56 had some sort of ballistic advantage... it does not. Its not as flat shooting and does not do as well in the wind. |
|||
|
|
![]()
Maybe not on paper - but I still think I'll stick with the 77grain round based upon my personal experiences with it - not what I've read on a ballistics table. Your argument with my post has nothing to do with real world shooting - it seems purely based on paper. That - to me - doesn't represent "fact" at all. Sorry - I'll stick with what is working for me. I think it's a safer option, and does the job just fine. |
|
|
![]()
where did you get the mono pod for the buttstock, I must have one. |
|
|
![]()
Just out of curiosity how many times have you actually used that rifle? PHX is a pretty big city and I can't even remember the last time a sniper did anything but watch what happens through his glass. I don't mean to be disrespectful, or even to insinuate anything bad, but devl is correct on this. I do understand your point though, it's just that it's a misrepresentation of the ballistic facts and you are touting your vast experience as an LE sniper as proof that we should listen to you. So I'm asking you, are one of the few LE snipers in the country that have actually pulled the trigger, or are you mostly long range recon with a lot of paper experience? |
||
|
![]()
Real ammo, real can, real upper on an M16 lower. And for something else nostalgic you havent seen: ![]() Dont worry about the hijack, that was already done by a bunch of folks who dont know what they are talking about ![]() |
|
|
![]()
Again, I must be missing where I touted my vast experience. I am just saying I have had some experience, and made decisions based upon those experiences. I gave the reasons why. Do what you want with it. I'm not trying to mislead anyone as you seem to think I am. I'll just say this - it's none of your business whether I've shot anyone or not. Even though you claim not to intend any offense, you are basically doing the internet version of squaring off with me. You're calling me out. Sorry - not going to play your game. I think if you were actually interested, you would have posed the question quite differently. I hope what I posted helped some of you out there and gives you food for thought. |
|||
|
![]()
Actually My questions were exactly what I said they were, just an attempt to find out where you are coming from. You were giving info that is slightly misleading when compared to my "PAPER" knowledge of balistics which jives with what devl said. You seem to easily take offense when your opinion is questioned, and claim that your LE status is all we need to know to believe you. I think I'm well within the rules of info gathering to find out why that LE experience should change my mind about my paper experience. How stupid would I be to just believe it because "You Say SO". This is how the sharing of knowledge and discussion happens. I say to you that a Chevy 1500 is the truck you should buy and you say to me "Why? What experience do you have with that truck that should give your opinion weight?" Again, I meant no offense, I just wanted to know why I should stick your info in my very beat up grey matter file system. |
|
|
Relying on paper ballistics without verifying them under real world conditions is a mistake. You would be amazed at how different a bullet can behave from what the charts say. SPDSNYPR thanks for the post, and you are right, it will take a huge lawsuit where an agency pays millions because a 168 overpenetrated before they will consider changing caliber or even bullet weight.
|
|
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.