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Posted: 10/7/2009 5:57:11 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
Probably the most common complaints I hear about these particular configurations is "it's too unbalanced forward" and "just too damn heavy". Since mine is purely a range plinker the weight doesn't bother me that much and it seems to make offhand shooting a bit easier. I realize that the HBAR isn't all that popular any more, but anyobody still prefer (or at least tolerate) that extra heft? My 16" HBAR still shoots great. It is heavy, but with a jp trigger, it is hard to beat. Only it and the AR10 will never be sold. unless I find something better. 
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Posted: 10/7/2009 6:17:30 PM EDT
[#2]
I really like my 20" heavy. Cuts down on muzzle flip and hangs better for off hand target work. Just plain nice to shoot. As I like the fun and challange of shooting off hand with open sights it fits the bill for me. One of the advantages of the AR platform is you can have it about any way you want it.
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Posted: 10/7/2009 7:44:21 PM EDT
[#3]
I like the increased sight radius, better accuracy, and it shoots softer. However, at 9 lbs vs 6.5 lbs for my 16" M&P15, it's my "stand and fight" gun, not my "on-the move buggin'-out" gun.
If I bring my HBAR to a shoot, it's only there as a backup, and unless I've had a barrel blow up, I'd probably just part it out to get my main lighter AR back in action. 
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Posted: 10/7/2009 8:42:29 PM EDT
[#4]
I really like the 20" A2 HBAR for target shooting.
It is probably my favorite AR for range shooting standing, kneeling, and sitting. It is great slung up in those positions to... either hasty or deliberate. |
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Posted: 10/7/2009 8:58:11 PM EDT
[#5]
people always whine about things being too heavy.
To me a rifle should have some solid weight to it. Not as much as the BAR my grand daddy carried through Europe, but some weight. A2 20'' feels perfect to me. |
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Posted: 10/7/2009 9:32:56 PM EDT
[#6]
For target work they are great, but my truck rifle and my closet carbine are lightweights.
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Posted: 10/7/2009 10:24:05 PM EDT
[#7]
Now that I've taken a liking to garands, anyone who thinks an AR15 20'' hbar (the rifle I grew up on) is heavy needs to go to the gym.
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Posted: 10/7/2009 11:23:22 PM EDT
[#8]
20 inchers are fine rifles for open country. Here is my 20 inch hbar with Daniel Defense rail. It runs 3 different sights, iron, scope or red dot.
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Posted: 10/8/2009 1:37:43 AM EDT
[#9]
I still enjoy shooting a 20" HBAR with iron sights.
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Posted: 10/8/2009 2:04:09 AM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
Now that I've taken a liking to garands, anyone who thinks an AR15 20'' hbar (the rifle I grew up on) is heavy needs to go to the gym. I hate this "hit the gym" comment. I pump iron AND work in the steel mill lugging plenty of heavy structural steel. I still find that HBAR sucks. A Garand is not muzzle heavy like an HBAR. Besides, if you think we should have modern rifles weighing as much as a rifle designed and fielded 70+ years ago, you are wrong. BTW, GIs in WWII did not enjoy lugging around Garand, but that was the best rifle they got. Now that technology have advanced and fighting tactics have changed, it is silly to think that a modern rifle should weigh as much as an old, outdated rifle. Also, AR series rifles were designed to be light weight weapons - if you want something weighing 9 LBS bare boned, you should look at other weapon systems. |
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Posted: 10/8/2009 2:12:29 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Now that I've taken a liking to garands, anyone who thinks an AR15 20'' hbar (the rifle I grew up on) is heavy needs to go to the gym. I hate this "hit the gym" comment. I pump iron AND work in the steel mill lugging plenty of heavy structural steel. I still find that HBAR sucks. A Garand is not muzzle heavy like an HBAR. Besides, if you think we should have modern rifles weighing as much as a rifle designed and fielded 70+ years ago, you are wrong. BTW, GIs in WWII did not enjoy lugging around Garand, but that was the best rifle they got. Now that technology have advanced and fighting tactics have changed, it is silly to think that a modern rifle should weigh as much as an old, outdated rifle. Also, AR series rifles were designed to be light weight weapons - if you want something weighing 9 LBS bare boned, you should look at other weapon systems. Still should be able to carry an HBAR AR |
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Posted: 10/8/2009 2:42:17 AM EDT
[#12]
I have a 20" NM rifle that I hope to eventually use in High Power matches. Added ~2# of weight in the buttstock to balance it, bringing overall weight to ~13#. I wouldn't want to carry it much, but it shoots beautifully.
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Posted: 10/8/2009 3:06:46 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Now that I've taken a liking to garands, anyone who thinks an AR15 20'' hbar (the rifle I grew up on) is heavy needs to go to the gym. I hate this "hit the gym" comment. I pump iron AND work in the steel mill lugging plenty of heavy structural steel. I still find that HBAR sucks. A Garand is not muzzle heavy like an HBAR. Besides, if you think we should have modern rifles weighing as much as a rifle designed and fielded 70+ years ago, you are wrong. BTW, GIs in WWII did not enjoy lugging around Garand, but that was the best rifle they got. Now that technology have advanced and fighting tactics have changed, it is silly to think that a modern rifle should weigh as much as an old, outdated rifle. Also, AR series rifles were designed to be light weight weapons - if you want something weighing 9 LBS bare boned, you should look at other weapon systems. Still should be able to carry an HBAR AR I could, but why should I when I have the option of carrying an AR that is 6.5# with a flashlight and an optic? What is the advantage of a 20" HBAR as a defensive / SHTF rifle Vs. a carbine or a gov't profile 20" barrel? Am I missing something here? ETA: I am going to sleep. "See" you all tomorrow. |
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Posted: 10/8/2009 3:15:48 AM EDT
[#14]
It's a great mid range weapon. I keep my configured bone stock. I use it for BRM training........
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Posted: 10/8/2009 3:29:18 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
Now that I've taken a liking to garands, anyone who thinks an AR15 20'' hbar (the rifle I grew up on) is heavy needs to go to the gym. This , put your purses down ladies for fuck sake. Fuck AROCK and Obama Edit: I take it you pussies were never MGs or SAW gunners for the military if you're bitching about HBAR ARs. |
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Posted: 10/8/2009 4:02:29 AM EDT
[#16]
Sold mine, never have wanted another one. If I don't care about weight I'll grab the Garand.
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Posted: 10/8/2009 4:12:43 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Sold mine, never have wanted another one. If I don't care about weight I'll grab the Garand M1A. Sold mine to my brother, with a YHM BUIS, MI Free Float rail, B-Square mount, 3-9X Burris scope, the original carry handle, and a Harris 9"-12" bipod.....for $600. Hey, at least he got the BRD, so I have someone to bench shoot with. |
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Posted: 10/8/2009 4:25:39 AM EDT
[#18]
A true rifleman will like a 20" HBAR as they are accurate and very ammenable to position shooting - in particular off hand and rapid fire sitting positions. The weight differnece compared to a normal barreled A2 clone is just not that significant unless you have to carry it all day.
A true end of the world is comming wanna be will take a lightweight 16" carbine for running and gunning where actual precision shooting ability is not the first priority. I have a 20" bull with a 6.5-20x50mm scope for varmint hunting - it is not fun to carry due to excessivce length, and weight as well as poor balance. But it is exceptionally accurate. I also have a 16" bull that is quite portable and makes a good general purpose rifle/carbine, It has most of the accuracy and sustained fire capability of the 20" bull with a lot less weight and lenght and yet still has a freefloat handguard that will tolerate high sling pressures. It will in short do pretty well at anything you ask it to do with the only real change needed being the addition or removal of optics. For tactical matches my go to carbine is a near clone of the 11.5" XM177E2 carbine but with a heavy under the handguards barrel. The short heavy barrel is stiff, accurate, and capable of sustained high rates of fire, yet is still reasonably lightweight and very fast handling but with just enough weight forward to make it track moving targets extremely well and to allow solid and stable off hand shooting. So in any given barrel lengt I am likely to lean toward a heavier barrel, but I also tend to take care to not have more barrel length than I really need as the lenght tends to hurt the handling sooner than the weight. |
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Posted: 10/8/2009 4:37:46 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Really? The "change in tactics"and the obvious advancement in technology with the AR series does not explain why the M14 is now back in widespread issue in Iraq and Afganistan to make up for the lack of long range accuracy and stopping power in the AR. For an overweight and overly long 55 year old direct decendent of the the Garand, it is sure proving hard to replace in the current combat theaters.
Besides, if you think we should have modern rifles weighing as much as a rifle designed and fielded 70+ years ago, you are wrong. BTW, GIs in WWII did not enjoy lugging around Garand, but that was the best rifle they got. Now that technology have advanced and fighting tactics have changed, it is silly to think that a modern rifle should weigh as much as an old, outdated rifle. Also, AR series rifles were designed to be light weight weapons - if you want something weighing 9 LBS bare boned, you should look at other weapon systems. If you gave the average grunt in WWII the choice between a Garand and an M4, I'm willing to bet most of them would have chosen the Garand due to the greater stopping power. Troops in short range combat situations would have chosen the M4 over the M1, but then again they were pretty well served by the M1 Carbine, M3 and Thompson SMG so the comparison is better made bewteen the M1 Carbine and the M4 than between the M1 Garand and the M4. And lets be honest, many people are hanging so much tacticool crap on M4's and M4 clones that the weight difference is not as much as the base weight of the M4 would suggest. |
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Posted: 10/8/2009 5:14:02 AM EDT
[#20]
20" HBAR for me. I also shoot a Springfield M1A, so nobody can tell me an HBAR AR is "too heavy."
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Posted: 10/8/2009 5:19:24 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Now that I've taken a liking to garands, anyone who thinks an AR15 20'' hbar (the rifle I grew up on) is heavy needs to go to the gym. This , put your purses down ladies for fuck sake. Fuck AROCK and Obama Edit: I take it you pussies were never MGs or SAW gunners for the military if you're bitching about HBAR ARs. Just becaus someone may have carried a heavier weapon in the mil doesn't mean the weight is desirable & is doesn't make them a p****y. I for one prefer the lightest rifle possible while still maintaining my needs. Grow up. |
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Posted: 10/8/2009 5:32:19 AM EDT
[#22]
Like many people here, my rifle's primary duty is SHTF/home defense, and the first thing I replaced was the 20" HBAR with a 16" LW.
True, I could go to the gym, eat my Wheaties and reach the point where I can maneuver an HBAR rifle as quickly as I can the LW. But I would still be faster with the LW. It's mass that needs to be accelerated from one place and decelerated when it gets to another, and the lighter and shorter hunk of metal will always win that race. |
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Posted: 10/8/2009 5:52:49 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
people always whine about things being too heavy. To me a rifle should have some solid weight to it. Not as much as the BAR my grand daddy carried through Europe, but some weight. A2 20'' feels perfect to me. I agree..."Its too heavy, waa...." I love my 20 inch and shoot it more then my 16 inch, If i could only have one i'd go with my 20..... I grew up on 20's...first one in military in 1970 and owned my first in 1983....all these new 16 inch or shorter full dressed is still sorta odd to me. I guess i'm a kept it simple, practical sorta guy. 
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Posted: 10/8/2009 6:05:02 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Now that I've taken a liking to garands, anyone who thinks an AR15 20'' hbar (the rifle I grew up on) is heavy needs to go to the gym. This , put your purses down ladies for fuck sake. Fuck AROCK and Obama Edit: I take it you pussies were never MGs or SAW gunners for the military if you're bitching about HBAR ARs. Just becaus someone may have carried a heavier weapon in the mil doesn't mean the weight is desirable & is doesn't make them a p****y. I for one prefer the lightest rifle possible while still maintaining my needs. Grow up. To each their own, I just don't understand the complaint. If you like a lighter AR that's fine and by no means qualifies anyone as a pussy. Although on a serious note there are plenty of weapons that are much heavier, and if someone is honestly whining about the weight of an Hbar.... well they might need to hit the gym. I like light ARs, I like heavy ARs, but my heaviest AR is still lighter than other weapon systems I have. And lighten the fuck up after all it is the interwebs, the term pussies is in jest I assure you. 
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Posted: 10/8/2009 6:11:26 AM EDT
[#25]
I just bought doesnt seem to heavy or off balance. How much could the extra steel weigh 4-6 oz?
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Posted: 10/8/2009 6:28:11 AM EDT
[#26]
I have a 16" HBAR carbine and like that one because it does still balance pretty well. However when I tried a 20" HBAR, it did feel unbalanced to me. No problem with the weight per se, just didn't seem to naturally point and swing well to me. No problem though, I went with a RRA predator pursuit which is still a very accurate but thinner taper 20" barrel which feels alot more balanced to me.
ARs come in all lengths and weights so something for everyone. The real challenge is resisting the urge to "collect em all". Course this economy is doing a good job of controlling that urge for me 
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Posted: 10/8/2009 6:28:47 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
I just bought doesnt seem to heavy or off balance. How much could the extra steel weigh 4-6 oz? I'd like to know the weight difference between a 20" HBAR and Govt profile if someone has the numbers handy. |
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Posted: 10/8/2009 6:35:08 AM EDT
[#28]
I don't have numbers in front of me but I recall it was more like a pound of difference between them. Someone will surely come along shortly who knows the actual numbers. I just know the predator pursuit was one of the lightest 20" barrel setups.
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Posted: 10/8/2009 9:22:14 AM EDT
[#29]
Some of you guys have been sucking too hard at the testosterone tit. This isn't high school any more, boys. Grow up.
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Posted: 10/10/2009 4:06:02 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
20" HBAR for me. I also shoot a Springfield M1A, so nobody can tell me an HBAR AR is "too heavy." I used to shoot M1A also - it's not just a matter of weight - it is how the weapon is balanced. |
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Posted: 10/10/2009 4:29:36 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
I still enjoy shooting a 20" HBAR with iron sights. As do I. |
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Posted: 10/10/2009 8:25:44 PM EDT
[#32]
4 - AR's (A2, M4, M4 - 6.8 & AR-10) and all are 20" medium weight. By far the AR-10 is the heaviest. The remainder are a dream to carry, in the field, compared to my other full length bolt rifles. Oh... and I like the forward weight, because it help me hold the target better (smaller figure 8's). That said... a light weight 16" is in my future, just because
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Posted: 10/10/2009 8:41:55 PM EDT
[#33]
i have a 20" hbar barrel and like shooting it. it is coupled with a double star lower, which is a sloppy fit. i let other people shoot it and they like shooting better than their own non-hbar guns. plus, it only cost be $225.
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Posted: 10/10/2009 9:56:41 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I just bought doesnt seem to heavy or off balance. How much could the extra steel weigh 4-6 oz? I'd like to know the weight difference between a 20" HBAR and Govt profile if someone has the numbers handy. I didn't have the numbers handy, but I bought a cheapo Sunbeam scale today at Walmart today, so what the hell.... I'm sure some people here may find it funny. I have a stripped 20" HBAR and a stripped 20" Govt profile. The HBAR was 2 lbs. and the Govt profile was 1 lb. . I am confident that this scale isn't accurate at such small weights, but for what it's worth, the Sunbeam claims the HBAR to be twice the weight of the Govt barrel. Looking at them side by side, there is quite a bit more mass to the HBAR. I'm not sure about twice the mass, but it has to be close to that. Enjoy, call BS, weigh some your damn self, or laugh your ass off.... I don't mind 
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Posted: 10/11/2009 12:31:13 AM EDT
[#35]
Like many, I have a LW 16" middy and my A4 HBAR 20". I like both but for different types of shooting. For longer range stuff 200-400yds, the nod goes to my 20" both because of the HBAR and it's got a 12X scope on it. For closer in shooting at the range or for walking in the woods, my middy gets the nod. If I could only keep one it would be the 20" HBAR.
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Posted: 10/11/2009 3:14:00 AM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Now that I've taken a liking to garands, anyone who thinks an AR15 20'' hbar (the rifle I grew up on) is heavy needs to go to the gym. This , put your purses down ladies for fuck sake. Fuck AROCK and Obama Edit: I take it you pussies were never MGs or SAW gunners for the military if you're bitching about HBAR ARs. yea, I was such a wuss for 15 years, I needed a Huey to carry my M60D around, along with the 1,000 rnd box-o-ammo,,,,,,,
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Posted: 10/11/2009 6:44:08 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
You have, in one sentence, identified the major problem with this entire website.
Like many people here, my rifle's primary duty is SHTF/home defense, and the first thing I replaced was the 20" HBAR with a 16" LW. There are way too many wannabees seeking the perfect "quality" tacticool AR for SHTF scenarios that are never gonna happen, or home defence scenarios that are never gonna happen (and would be better addressed with a different firearm) and not nearly enough people who actually shoot and knbw how to really shoot. 16" LW or 20" HB (and you can insert chrome lined,nonchrome lined, colt, non-colt whatever) won't matter. T person who knows how to shoot and practices often is going to be far more likley to win regardless of which one he or she has. |
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Posted: 10/11/2009 7:21:24 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
Quoted:
You have, in one sentence, identified the major problem with this entire website.
Like many people here, my rifle's primary duty is SHTF/home defense, and the first thing I replaced was the 20" HBAR with a 16" LW. There are way too many wannabees seeking the perfect "quality" tacticool AR for SHTF scenarios that are never gonna happen, or home defence scenarios that are never gonna happen (and would be better addressed with a different firearm) and not nearly enough people who actually shoot and knbw how to really shoot. 16" LW or 20" HB (and you can insert chrome lined,nonchrome lined, colt, non-colt whatever) won't matter. T person who knows how to shoot and practices often is going to be far more likley to win regardless of which one he or she has. Ditto that! Besides if I have a home invasion ,or on my property, I'm grabbing my .45 and shotgun. |
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Posted: 10/11/2009 7:39:34 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I just bought doesnt seem to heavy or off balance. How much could the extra steel weigh 4-6 oz? I'd like to know the weight difference between a 20" HBAR and Govt profile if someone has the numbers handy. I didn't have the numbers handy, but I bought a cheapo Sunbeam scale today at Walmart today, so what the hell.... I'm sure some people here may find it funny. I have a stripped 20" HBAR and a stripped 20" Govt profile. The HBAR was 2 lbs. and the Govt profile was 1 lb. . I am confident that this scale isn't accurate at such small weights, but for what it's worth, the Sunbeam claims the HBAR to be twice the weight of the Govt barrel. Looking at them side by side, there is quite a bit more mass to the HBAR. I'm not sure about twice the mass, but it has to be close to that. Enjoy, call BS, weigh some your damn self, or laugh your ass off.... I don't mind
I did a similar weight test I weighed my 20" Hbar W A2 handle and stock it weighed in at 8.8oz less mag.My 16" m4 with ACS stock and flashlight weighed 7.6oz . Not much difference if you ask me . Also helps if you exercise with your firearm, example as I watch survivor I hold my rifle in the offhand shooting position for 5min increasing the time after each commercial break
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Posted: 10/11/2009 7:43:04 AM EDT
[#40]
There are Highpower rifle shooters who have added weight to their 20" HBARs. In addition to the free-float handguard, they have lead in the butt and in the forarm. Some of these rifles weigh-in at more than 14 lbs. If you think that the standard 20" HBAR is too muzzle heavy (which it can be) try adding a bit of weight to the buttstock. The balanced rifle will seem to weigh less and be more stable. I find that a whispy shotgun or rifle, although quick to point, is actually harder to shoot accurately––-even on moving targets.
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Posted: 10/11/2009 8:36:23 AM EDT
[#41]
i like heavy guns. two of mine are 24 inch bull barrels. just a preference. my shtf gun will be the first weapon of any kind i can wrap my hand around that will get the job done. im not going to be picky.
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Posted: 10/11/2009 8:51:14 AM EDT
[#42]
There are way too many wannabees seeking the perfect "quality" tacticool AR for SHTF scenarios that are never gonna happen, or home defence scenarios that are never gonna happen (and would be better addressed with a different firearm)
Wow, so true. I roll my eyes ever time I see a post with 'SHTF' in the title.
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Posted: 10/11/2009 8:54:26 AM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
Quoted:
You have, in one sentence, identified the major problem with this entire website.
Like many people here, my rifle's primary duty is SHTF/home defense, and the first thing I replaced was the 20" HBAR with a 16" LW. There are way too many wannabees seeking the perfect "quality" tacticool AR for SHTF scenarios that are never gonna happen, or home defence scenarios that are never gonna happen (and would be better addressed with a different firearm) and not nearly enough people who actually shoot and knbw how to really shoot. 16" LW or 20" HB (and you can insert chrome lined,nonchrome lined, colt, non-colt whatever) won't matter. T person who knows how to shoot and practices often is going to be far more likley to win regardless of which one he or she has. ^this |
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Posted: 10/12/2009 12:10:08 PM EDT
[#44]
I have a bushmaster 20 in. hbar that balances great for me when it's held just in front of the delta ring. It does get a little heavy for extended offhand shooting, but I'm just target shooting.. my arm gets tired, I stop for a bit, or just move to the bench. I think they're awesome. You want light, get a carbine.
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Posted: 10/12/2009 12:51:37 PM EDT
[#45]
I enjoy the balance of rifles and carbines that have government profile barrels. They feel handier, quicker. For me it is not really the weight, it is the balance.
I actually put a weight in the stock of my varmint AR (26" heavy barrel) to get it to balance better. A 20" HBAR barrel weighs 3.5 pounds and an A2 barrel weighs 2.5 pounds. For those of you not good at math, that is a one pound difference. 
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Posted: 10/12/2009 1:53:52 PM EDT
[#46]
I bought a "post-ban" 20" Colt Match Target Competition HBAR from a buddy of mine back in 2000 when he was tight on cash.
Soon after the ban expired, it went off to ADCO for debanning and a Gov't profile on the barrel. Nothing against the HBAR, but I prefer the new(er) setup. |
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Posted: 10/12/2009 2:09:37 PM EDT
[#47]
Okay, I weighed my 20" .223 Wylde on a digital scale. It came in at 7 lbls. 3 oz. with no optics. Weapon is Spikes M4 upper and complete carbine lower (includes Dan Young NM BCG and JP 3.5 trigger) with Lothar Walther Var/Tac heavy SS barrel. Forearm is Hogue FF tube w/4-rail picatinny cuff. When I add the Nikon Monarch 4.5 x 16 w/Burris PEPR mount it comes in at 8 lbs. 11oz. IMHO the weight is just fine considering it's flexibility, superb accuracy and the fact it's semi auto. It's a delight to carry compared to my Savage Model 12 .223 with Nikon 5.5 x 20 @ 10 lbs. 1 oz. with a 26" barrel.
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Posted: 10/12/2009 2:36:39 PM EDT
[#48]
Wow what a thread. To bad I missed it last night when i was drinking. I could have pissed on the fire with the rest of you fire eaters.
I started with the HBAR then to the AR-2 Govt. carbine and a SP-1. I still have the HBAR bone stock (as well as both carbines) and went a little farther by buying a SPR with a 20 barrell and Leopold. As far as them being unweildy and muzzle heav y . Maybe to some but i have tagged many a TX jack rabbit, coyote and prarie rat with mine sitting still and on the run. Who gives a shit what the next guy thinks you should have. |
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Posted: 10/12/2009 3:03:13 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
Who gives a shit what the next guy thinks you should have. This, hell shoot what you want, if one is to heavy pull a different one out of the safe. |
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Posted: 10/12/2009 3:16:09 PM EDT
[#50]
Quoted:
There are Highpower rifle shooters who have added weight to their 20" HBARs. In addition to the free-float handguard, they have lead in the butt and in the forarm. Some of these rifles weigh-in at more than 14 lbs. If you think that the standard 20" HBAR is too muzzle heavy (which it can be) try adding a bit of weight to the buttstock. The balanced rifle will seem to weigh less and be more stable. I find that a whispy shotgun or rifle, although quick to point, is actually harder to shoot accurately––-even on moving targets. Back when I had a HBAR extra weight in the buttstock did indeed make it feel better because of the correct balance. IIRC I put somewhere between 2 and 2.5 lb of lead weight in the butt. Total weight was around 11 lb but other than a couple of local small time matches I never shot it. I ended up selling it to my best friends boss since he was dying for a AR during the Obamination panic. |
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