User Panel
[#1]
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[#2]
I like the First Samco/IDI/FAB/Mako finger groove grip. The name has changed a few times, but grip remains the same. It fits me like they molded it for my hand. The Magpul MOE grip is a close second for fit and traction. The only A2 grip I kept is on my M16A2 clone. The rest got sold for junk.
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We President now!
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[Last Edit: EVR]
[#3]
Originally Posted By JJREA:
LOL, you must like em thin.... Or who knows how that thing is shaped. I know my RRA ones are definitely not the same width as my Colt. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By JJREA:
Originally Posted By EVR:
I've never cared about grips much, and had no particular angst about the A2, but I tried the cheapo Tapco SAW grip and promptly got rid of most of my others. I like that thing. I originally wanted to try an FNFAL-type grip on an AR but there were none out there. So I got this thing thinking it might be close. As it turns out, it isn't really, but has become my favorite grip for field shooting which is what I do all year long. |
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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God? Sed libera nos a malo.
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[#4]
Well if it is fatter, maybe the people that like Colts would like the TAPCO. Which type are you comparing it to? Because if you're comparing it to some other no name, maybe the TAPCO's have a closer dimension to the Colts...........
Do you have a Colt grip? To set next to the TAPCO to see? |
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[#5]
Originally Posted By JJREA:
Well if it is fatter, maybe the people that like Colts would like the TAPCO. Which type are you comparing it to? Because if you're comparing it to some other no name, maybe the TAPCO's have a closer dimension to the Colts........... Do you have a Colt grip? To set next to the TAPCO to see? View Quote https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1116417866/tapco-saw-style-pistol-grip-ar-15-composite |
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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God? Sed libera nos a malo.
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[Last Edit: mark5pt56]
[#6]
While optics were not really in the picture at the time, I laugh every time you see someone, usually a Marine with an ACOG and that f'ing A2 stock over the shoulder. Yeah, how's that longer stock now? Never cared for it when it cam out. The grip, who cares, while there's better, either A1 or 2 has never bothered me. Nub bother you?-grow some man hands and your middle finger will be below it.
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[#7]
*ring finger
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Distinguished Rifleman #2223
FBHO TK4L "Technique isn't something that can be taught. It's something you find on your own." - Bunta Fujiwara |
[#8]
Originally Posted By mark5pt56:
While optics were not really in the picture at the time, I laugh every time you see someone, usually a Marine with an ACOG and that f'ing A2 stock over the shoulder. Yeah, how's that longer stock now? Never cared for it when it cam out. The grip, who cares, while there's better, either A1 or 2 has never bothered me. Nub bother you?-grow some man hands and your middle finger will be below it. View Quote I do it more to elevate the sight picture up to my eye level, so I don't bend my head quite so low. I have a feeling that's why they do it, especially if using the optics for observation or surveillance, where they will be in that position for extended periods. It beats the hell out of creening your neck into a firing position and holding that for twenty minutes or so. . |
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[#9]
Originally Posted By Gator57:
The A2 stock fits me very well, but I find that I do that sometimes myself, (usually when I'm shooting at distance). I do it more to elevate the sight picture up to my eye level, so I don't bend my head quite so low. I have a feeling that's why they do it, especially if using the optics for observation or surveillance, where they will be in that position for extended periods. It beats the hell out of creening your neck into a firing position and holding that for twenty minutes or so. . View Quote |
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Our motto: Apocalypse Now
NORCAL Nickname: Gadsen |
[#10]
As promised, the only thing better than one A2 grip, is two.
20171013_081213 by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr No nub, sorry. 20171013_081301(1) by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr 20171013_081251 by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr |
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[#11]
NICE. How much did that Troy rear run you?
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Jesus came to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable. - My Pastor
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[#12]
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[Last Edit: Rick_A]
[#13]
20171013_081213 by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr
Got a new front sight and stock. Replaced the old pic. Dual A2 grips=total win It's hard to believe they're the same grip. It looks so different with some minor mods as a VFG. |
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[#14]
Bump
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[#15]
bump
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[#16]
@Coldblue
Any chance you could reupload the picture of the award/trophy your coworkers made for you after designing/building the A2's pistol grip notch? From when "you built the first two (using Bondo) in my shop at Picatin" ? The original image that photobucket nuked direct linking was posted on 11/11/2013 10:37:42 AM EDT page 1 https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Why-did-the-military-go-from-the-A1-pistol-grip-to-the-A2-pistol-grip-/118-626884/ of this thread. That piece of history and your explanation on this thread & eternal question of "why the grip was changed" should not be lost. I saw this thread's title and didn't realize it was a bump, and went hunting for your old post to answer it with a link to the(this) original. To sadly see a cool piece of history and M16/AR design team's history and comradery was gone. Thank you for your explanations and stories in this and many other threads. |
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[#17]
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[#18]
Originally Posted By kudzunc:
@Coldblue Any chance you could reupload the picture of the award/trophy your coworkers made for you after designing/building the A2's pistol grip notch? From when "you built the first two (using Bondo) in my shop at Picatin" ? The original image that photobucket nuked direct linking was posted on 11/11/2013 10:37:42 AM EDT page 1 https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Why-did-the-military-go-from-the-A1-pistol-grip-to-the-A2-pistol-grip-/118-626884/ of this thread. That piece of history and your explanation on this thread & eternal question of "why the grip was changed" should not be lost. I saw this thread's title and didn't realize it was a bump, and went hunting for your old post to answer it with a link to the(this) original. To sadly see a cool piece of history and M16/AR design team's history and comradery was gone. Thank you for your explanations and stories in this and many other threads. View Quote |
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ColdBlue sends...
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[#19]
I believe Mr. Harold Waterman who was the chief M16A2 program engineer at Colt's built this for me. He also held the patent on how the identical round halves of the A2 handguards would fit into either a round or triangular handguard caps.
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ColdBlue sends...
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.40 S&W Supreme Leader & Dictator for Life
FL, USA
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[#20]
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End the Political Establishment
Communists/Socialists aren't people |
[#21]
Originally Posted By Miami_JBT:
I wish Colt and other folks made the Canadian contract "Court/Short" Stock. https://i.imgur.com/SIWcjxr.jpg An A1 length built to A2 specs. Live mine. View Quote |
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[#22]
I've been using an A1 on my A2 because it feels better. But last week I swapped it back out. For giggles. Man the extra 5/8" feels like 7". Blaaaaaaaaa. It just unhits that sweetspot. Part of my issue with the A1 on there is it's the wrong material and looks wrong with the A2. I guess maybe I am sort of a cloner at heart.
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Jesus came to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable. - My Pastor
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[Last Edit: C6H12O6]
[#23]
Originally Posted By Miami_JBT:
I wish Colt and other folks made the Canadian contract "Court/Short" Stock. https://i.imgur.com/SIWcjxr.jpg An A1 length built to A2 specs. Love mine. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By Miami_JBT:
I wish Colt and other folks made the Canadian contract "Court/Short" Stock. https://i.imgur.com/SIWcjxr.jpg An A1 length built to A2 specs. Love mine. I wish either Colt or someone else would produce these. How hard could it be? Originally Posted By JJREA:
I've been using an A1 on my A2 because it feels better. But last week I swapped it back out. For giggles. Man the extra 5/8" feels like 7". Blaaaaaaaaa. It just unhits that sweetspot. Part of my issue with the A1 on there is it's the wrong material and looks wrong with the A2. I guess maybe I am sort of a cloner at heart. |
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[#24]
"...I use A1s on my A2s & A4s but w/ A2 buttplates..."
All part of the original plan... |
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ColdBlue sends...
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[#25]
Originally Posted By Lerch641:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/Black_Hawk_169/20180329_211900_zps8smzwjma.jpg The best versions on the right View Quote |
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[Last Edit: EVR]
[#26]
At this point ,I just want somebody to make a duplicate FAL grip for the AR.
On a whim, I replaced my A2 grips with cheap Tapco SAW grips...and found them to be my favorites. I'd like to try a twin of this: https://www.apexgunparts.com/fal-pistol-grip-black-plastic.html |
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So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you." St John 6:53
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[#28]
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[Last Edit: HighpowerRifleBrony]
[#29]
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Distinguished Rifleman #2223
#FreeBradders "Technique isn't something that can be taught. It's something you find on your own." - Bunta Fujiwara |
[#30]
Read the damn thread. He covered this, and not the Marines' fault for once.
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I'm the lucky son-of-a-gun who married FW_wife.
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[#31]
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So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you." St John 6:53
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[#32]
Originally Posted By JJREA:
You're missing the point. You can tell the difference between the material of the stock between a genuine A1 and an A2........ I also use A2 buttplates on my A1. It sticks to the shoulder better. A2 material: https://i.imgur.com/M6Rrt4A.jpg A1 Material: https://i.imgur.com/XAzRgt4.jpg It's got that more.... fiberglass look to it. I know I know... who cares. View Quote I’m aware of the differences between A1 & A2 stocks. Trust me, I’d much prefer to use an A1-length stock made of A2 material. I just couldn’t justify keeping the (3) CS stocks I had. And an A1 looks close enough to an oiled-up A2 for me. |
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[#33]
Don't see a stock length issue when you can easily exchange and A1 stock with an A2 as long as you have an A1 buttstock screw. Now the A1 stock material will not be DuPont Zytel like the A2, but what friggen difference does that make to 99% of us never falling on our rifles...? The A1 takes a paint job better as well...
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ColdBlue sends...
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[Last Edit: iac1]
[#34]
@ ColdBlue,
Excellent reply to 'I just hold over' re, why M16s now have adjustable sights. Plus my 2 cents. 1- US Military rifles have had adjustable sights since at least the Civil War. But we should go back wards with ARs ?? 2- Many Italian M1891 Carcano rifle/carbines were made with fixed sights too, as the Soldier would just 'hold over'. Realizing their error, the Army returned to adjustable sights with the last model ! Semper Fi 84-88, IAC. |
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[#35]
Originally Posted By coldblue: The Colt test rifle (designated as M16A1E1 for this project) had a 1:7 twist barrel, adjustable rear sight (i.e., the very early version with the range reading peep hole at the rear of the carrying handle)... View Quote |
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Put down the Optic! Learn how to shoot the REAL way!
*************************************** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ligUEAJH25E |
[#36]
Was not for range finding, just reading the dial number through a hole in the rear of the handle vs the left side in the final design.
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ColdBlue sends...
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Off the record, I love your new bangs, Mrs. Obama
OR, USA
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[#37]
This thread lives on...
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"The only thing more boring than shooting groups is looking at other people's groups on the internet." -erud
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[#38]
Originally Posted By Miami_JBT:
I wish Colt and other folks made the Canadian contract "Court/Short" Stock. https://i.imgur.com/SIWcjxr.jpg An A1 length built to A2 specs. Live mine. View Quote Surplus A1 stocks are harder to find, and weaker than the A2 (which is 8 times stronger)! Considering that the receiver extension / stock of the AR is its achillies heel, I view strength here has important. Currently, I use Cav Arms A1 stocks. Not quite as sturdy or solid as A2s but still stronger (and lighter) than fiberglass A1s since the Cav's are made with a modern polymer. |
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Put down the Optic! Learn how to shoot the REAL way!
*************************************** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ligUEAJH25E |
[#39]
Col Lutz,
Another question re, the A2's 1/7 barrel twist. You state the twist was chosen due to a collegue thinking towards the future; rather than just go with 1/8. Are you then saying that the 1/7 wasn't chosen due to the often used reason that it was needed to stabalize the longer M856 Tracer round ? Thanks & Semper Fi, IAC. |
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[#40]
Oh well, still a mystery !
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[#41]
@coldblue
See the above two posts. Thanks, sir! |
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[Last Edit: HighpowerRifleBrony]
[#42]
Berger's twist calculator shows 1:7 twist spinning 1.1"-long 0.224" bullets with an SG of ~1.3.
1.0 is absolute minimum, 1.5 is preferred for full B.C. So I'd say 1:7 was needed for M856. |
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Distinguished Rifleman #2223
#FreeBradders "Technique isn't something that can be taught. It's something you find on your own." - Bunta Fujiwara |
[#43]
Originally Posted By HighpowerRifleBrony:
Berger's twist calculator shows 1:7 twist spinning 1.1"-long 0.224" bullets with an SG of ~1.3. 1.0 is absolute minimum, 1.5 is preferred for full B.C. So I'd say 1:7 was needed for M856. View Quote |
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[#44]
Sorry this took awhile:
1:7 vs 1:9 rifling twist discussions and decision were not significantly influenced by the twist rate recommended for the M856 tracer. First off, the M249 SAW, which was to be the 90%+ user of tracers, maintained the 1:7 twist. Rifle use was considered, but 1:9 was considered “good enough” for tracer. But what really had the dominate element was that the new tracer round was to be the new NATO “dim to brighter” tracer. And when we tested it in the daylight, one could barely see any trace when sighting through the rifle sights. Whereas in side by side testing, the then current M196 Tracer was the hands down “winner control,” in the eyes of the troops because your eye picked of the brighter trace much closer to the muzzle. Another was the potential cost savings by significantly reducing the quantity of 20-round boxed tracer for rifle use as it was not used very much at all. And the ammo guys saw reducing the tracer load-outs in Landing Force ammo stored aboard amphibious ships as a way to reinstate the rifle pack-out of ball ammo (1680 per case) that was being displaced by just 800 rounds of M249 SAW ammo in the exact same size wire bound wooden crate. This 1680 vs 800 rounds (in the same cube) was also the reason a large element of our Logistic Command wanted the M16A2 to be semi-auto only—and they had significant program direction leverage as they were funding my Improved Service Rifle program. So when I found the 3-round burst control trigger mech, and ran this up the flag pole and got it approved, this allowed the M16 auto sear to stay in the lower. |
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ColdBlue sends...
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[#45]
Originally Posted By coldblue: And the ammo guys saw reducing the tracer load-outs in Landing Force ammo stored aboard amphibious ships as a way to reinstate the rifle pack-out of ball ammo (1680 per case) that was being displaced by just 800 rounds of M249 SAW ammo in the exact same size wire bound wooden crate. This 1680 vs 800 rounds (in the same cube) was also the reason a large element of our Logistic Command wanted the M16A2 to be semi-auto only—and they had significant program direction leverage as they were funding my Improved Service Rifle program. View Quote |
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Married the most eligible woman on ARFCOM.
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[#46]
Its funny how we discuss the A1 vs A2 grip..
And the Beretta ARX160 did exactly the same thing.. the bump was added on the A2 version based on users experience |
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[#47]
Originally Posted By backbencher: Do you think the 1680/800 round count/box impacted the recent decision by the Marines to withdraw the M249 from the squad and replace it w/ the HK? View Quote |
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"--you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."
Heinlein NRA Life Member Glock Certified Armorer Certified AR15 Armorer Certified M1911 Armorer |
[#48]
Originally Posted By GHPorter:
I don't know what ColdBlue will say, but it looks like the weight and complexity of the 249 compared to the AR-based HK gun had a large impact on the decision. The only parts similarity between the M16-family weapons and the 249 is that the 249 (theoretically) can use M16 magazines... The HK 416-based M27 has a huge parts commonality with the M16 family. View Quote The HK handles the same way an M16/M4 does, so a guy fresh out of RT doesn't have to think hard about loading, stoppages, etc.... |
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[#49]
Originally Posted By JJREA:
I've been using an A1 on my A2 because it feels better. But last week I swapped it back out. For giggles. Man the extra 5/8" feels like 7". Blaaaaaaaaa. It just unhits that sweetspot. Part of my issue with the A1 on there is it's the wrong material and looks wrong with the A2. I guess maybe I am sort of a cloner at heart. View Quote kwg |
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[#50]
There are at least three or more major factors that doomed the M249 SAW in the Marine Corps. First and foremost was the dropping of the mandatory Division SAW Gunners Schools too soon after the initial fielding was completed. Such Schooling should have remained in place. Second maybe was the total lack of linked blank ammo during the first several years of fielding for training which forced the very unreliable use of rifle magazines loaded with blanks so the SAW gunners could play war. But this caused SAW gunners to lose reliability confidence in the weapon.
Due to manpower issues, most fire teams did not have full four Marines it was designed for. And because the SAW and its ammo load was the heaviest, it was assigned to the lowest ranking junior guy the team. This was contrary to when the older fire team’s BAR man was the second senior guy in the teams—literally the assistant fire team leader. I also remember one newsreel from Iraq that showed a SAW gunner wielding a sledge hammer—again—the junior guy getting the heaviest load. Another was the total lack of increased logistic transport capability, i.e., more jeeps and trailers, at the organic infantry company level necessary to support the new 27 LMGs in each company. I mean that replacing 27 rifles with 27 belt-fed LMG’s were never complemented with appropriate motor transport at the company or battalion level. In reference to the M27, numerous articles addressing its strengths and weakness are out there for you to glean an opinion on. However,I found it very ironic that when we might have rightfully expected to see massed human wave attacks coming across the North Korean border, we dumped a belt-fed for a box magazine fed. But then you also had some died-in-the-wool M16 haters (with an agenda) that saw a way to replace direct impingement rifles with those using pistons. However, there were live fire and maneuver deadly training incidents with the SAW that were being blamed of the open bolt firing nature of the weapon. This led to SAW gunners being required to completely unload numerous times during individual, 2-man, and team rushes; and thus a “requirement” for a “closed bolt” automatic rifle that was inherently “safer” while on safe and loaded with a round in the chamber during fire and maneuver than the LMG was thought to be. |
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ColdBlue sends...
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