FN P90 Belgium my as...Hill submachine gun prototype...H&K G11 and H&K LMG11

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - FN P90 Belgium my as...Hill submachine gun prototype...H&K G11 and H&K LMG11

Posted: 1/29/2013 4:51:51 AM EDT

Hill Submachine Gun, 9mm

"RECORDS OF THE SPRINGFIELD ARMORY : Records of the Research and Engineering Division
Hill Submachine Gun, 9mm Left Side View Showing Large Capacity Magazine"

http://ww2.rediscov.com/springar/VFPCGI.exe?IDCFile=/springar/details.IDC,SPECIFIC=18210,DATABASE=BIBLIO,

"RECORDS OF THE SPRINGFIELD ARMORY : Records of the Research and Engineering Division
Hill Submachine Gun, 9mm Top View Showing Turnable Feed with Bolt in Cocked Position"

http://ww2.rediscov.com/springar/VFPCGI.exe?IDCFile=/springar/details.IDC,SPECIFIC=18213,DATABASE=BIBLIO,

"RECORDS OF THE SPRINGFIELD ARMORY : Records of the Research and Engineering Division
Hill Submachine Gun, 9mm Close-Up of Bolt Going Forward, Feeding Round into Chamber"

http://ww2.rediscov.com/springar/VFPCGI.exe?IDCFile=/springar/details.IDC,SPECIFIC=18216,DATABASE=BIBLIO,

"RECORDS OF THE SPRINGFIELD ARMORY : Records of the Research and Engineering Division
Hill Submachine Gun, 9mm Bolt Starting Forward-Rotation Completed-Round Chambered and Firing Initiated"

http://ww2.rediscov.com/springar/VFPCGI.exe?IDCFile=/springar/details.IDC,SPECIFIC=18219,DATABASE=BIBLIO,

John L. Hill patentes:

http://www.google.com/patents/US2624241?printsec=drawing#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.google.com/patents/US2773325?printsec=drawing#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.google.com/patents/US3064382?printsec=drawing#v=onepage&q&f=false

Posted: 1/29/2013 5:06:43 AM EDT

[#1]

Interesting

Posted: 1/29/2013 5:33:39 AM EDT

[#2]

Old news.

Brick

Posted: 1/29/2013 6:25:54 AM EDT

[#3]

Neat!

Posted: 1/29/2013 7:34:31 AM EDT

[#4]

It sure would be nice if you could get a P90 in an effective cartridge like 9mm, . 40, or .45. 10mm would be badass.

Posted: 1/29/2013 7:52:09 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
It sure would be nice if you could get a P90 in an effective cartridge like 9mm, . 40, or .45. 10mm would be badass.

7.62x25 - the length is right.

Posted: 1/29/2013 8:11:30 AM EDT

[#6]

MP-40 barrel looks like.

Posted: 1/29/2013 9:58:52 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
It sure would be nice if you could get a P90 in an effective cartridge like 9mm, . 40, or .45. 10mm would be badass.

Don't tell anyone hit by a 5.7mm round that it is not effective.

I got to handle a dealer sample gray trigger pack and went through 5 fifty rounders in no time at all.

Very devastating weapon platform and caliber.

Only compact device that scares me more than that would be a 556 out of a 10" 1x14 barrel.

I never knew about the retro top feeder, thanks for that!

Posted: 1/29/2013 11:08:09 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
Old news.

Brick

Your point? With the exception of GD, probably 99% of everything on ARFCOM was talked about or mentioned before which would make it "old news".

OP, thanks for posting that. Never knew anything like that existed. I always thought the P90 was a new revolutionary design.

Posted: 1/29/2013 12:02:07 PM EDT

[#9]

It "failed" probably because the feed system wasn't there yet to what comes to reliability,the FN patent (U.S. Patent 4,905,394) for "Top mounted longitudinal magazine" by Rene Predazzer makes the obvious reference to John L. Hill "MAGAZINE AND CARTRIDGE CONTAINER ASSEMBLY" and "TUBULAR COMBINED CARTRIDGE CONTAINER AND MAGAZINE UNIT".
This was a prototype as one can see for the MP40 barrel,better engineering made it possible and reliable for practical use.
Just imagine if all the data and photographic material from the springfield Armory was available,all those sleepless nights and wet dreams.

Rene Predazzer "Top mounted longitudinal magazine" patent.

http://www.google.com/patents/US4905394?dq=4,905,394&hl=pt-BR&sa=X&ei=QjYIUc61PMiYhQephYCYDQ&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA

http://www.google.com/patents/US4905394?printsec=drawing&hl=pt-BR&dq=4,905,394&ei=QjYIUc61PMiYhQephYCYDQ#v=onepage&q=4%2C905%2C394&f=false

Posted: 1/29/2013 12:08:07 PM EDT

[#10]

Thanks OP, was not aware of that

Posted: 1/29/2013 12:13:02 PM EDT

[#11]

In the Hill Submachine Gun,the disk is in the receiver as the bolt feeds through the it as in the FN P90 the disk is in the magazine as the bolt feeds from it,it is basecly the same but the last one is more practical then the first one,Hill would have probably got to the same mechenism is he had worked on it for few more years,at the time this was probably just a new mechenism seen by most just as a prototype as to something with a practical aplication.

Posted: 1/29/2013 3:26:37 PM EDT

[#12]

It does not use a hammer as it fires from a opn bot,the ejection is vertical as it is ejected down as handling of the weapon was probably uncomfortable as there is not much space front or rear of the ejection port.
Is as a metal receiver structure inside that is screwed to the wood stock,it uses the barrel structure from a MP40.
The magazine is made out of transparent plastic,for display purposes probably.
It is a relatively simple mechanism that makes for a beautiful and compact assembly.

Posted: 1/29/2013 7:55:14 PM EDT

[#13]

Thanks for posting this.

Like the old saying: "Nothing new under the sun."

Many of the "new" designs are improvements or even revivals of old ideas.

YMMV

Posted: 1/30/2013 6:01:45 AM EDT

[#14]

FN P90 prototype

http://fnforum.net/forums/fn-ps90/15080-p90-prototype.html

"Development of the P90 began in 1986"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_P90

Posted: 1/30/2013 8:47:24 AM EDT

[#15]

Looks like a cordless sawzall to me...

Posted: 1/30/2013 11:31:15 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Looks like a cordless sawzall to me...

Maybe a "state of the art" toilet plunger?

Posted: 1/30/2013 1:39:27 PM EDT

[#17]

Maybe the designer of the P90 proto in the photo just watched Dune.

Posted: 1/30/2013 1:46:49 PM EDT

[#18]

The H&K G11 also used a disk to feed from the magazine but it worked more like the Hill as it is part of the firing mechenism working inside the receiver as to the FN P90 one that works from the and as part of the magazine,the top magazine as the ammo facing up but it is a weapon of a different class,obviously.

http://www.hkpro.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=23:the-g11-caseless-military-rifle

Posted: 1/30/2013 2:08:20 PM EDT

[#19]

I could make a smart alack comment about the Ares FMG and Magpul.

Posted: 1/30/2013 2:23:09 PM EDT

[#20]

Mauser G11

"The G11 project was created by Mauser GmbH in the 1960's. The Mauser G11 fired 4.75 caseless rounds from an internal 10-round magazine. It was trailed and rejected by NATO, but the project was overtaken by Heckler and Koch shortly afterward."

http://guns.wikia.com/wiki/H%26K_G11

"The rifle is noted for its use of caseless ammunition. A triple barrel light machine gun variant also existed under Patent 3954042."

http://www.google.com/patents/US3954042?printsec=drawing#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.google.com/patents/US4034644?printsec=drawing#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_G11

Posted: 1/31/2013 5:19:54 AM EDT

[#21]

The H&K G11 as the magazine on top as to the MAUSER G11 that as the ammo in the butstock but H&K did a LMG in the same way,the H&K LMG11 as the ammo on the butstock as the MAUSER G11.

H&K G11

H&K LMG11

http://www.hkpro.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=23:the-g11-caseless-military-rifle&catid=11:rare-prototypes&Itemid=5

http://www.hkpro.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=24:the-lmg11-caseless-mg&catid=11:rare-prototypes&Itemid=5

Posted: 2/1/2013 6:31:43 AM EDT

[#22]

H&K G11 prototype stage,rifle and sight

Page 1

Page 2

"Action-Fotos"

From " Wolfgang Seel: Die G 11-Story" book

Posted: 2/1/2013 11:27:54 AM EDT

[#23]

It was a nifty concept, but there were a couple idiosyncrasies.

The cyclic rate sped up as it fired, so the last 2 rounds in the burst were at a faster rate of fire than the first 2. And, since there were no cartridge cases, there was no vehicle to get heat out of the mechanism. Turns out the brass case sucks up a lot of heat and throws it out of the weapon thus keeping it cooler than the caseless concept which dumps all the heat into the barrel and bolt.

Posted: 2/1/2013 12:18:37 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
It was a nifty concept, but there were a couple idiosyncrasies.

The cyclic rate sped up as it fired, so the last 2 rounds in the burst were at a faster rate of fire than the first 2. And, since there were no cartridge cases, there was no vehicle to get heat out of the mechanism. Turns out the brass case sucks up a lot of heat and throws it out of the weapon thus keeping it cooler than the caseless concept which dumps all the heat into the barrel and bolt.

And with no ejection port there is no way to see if there is a round in the chamber.

Posted: 2/1/2013 1:01:52 PM EDT

[#25]

"Shoulder arm with swivel breech member"
H&K G11 bolt mechenism by Dieter Ketterer

http://www.google.com/patents/US4348941?printsec=drawing#v=onepage&q&f=false

Posted: 2/1/2013 1:14:56 PM EDT

[#26]

"Automatic or semi-automatic small arm"
Tilo Moller

http://www.google.com/patents/US4078327?printsec=drawing#v=onepage&q&f=false

"Automatic shoulder arm"
Tilo Moller

http://www.google.com/patents/US4024792?printsec=drawing&hl=pt-BR&dq=ininventor:%22Tilo+Moller%22&ei=7zwMUfzWMYqJhQefqYDYCw#v=onepage&q&f=false

Posted: 2/1/2013 4:01:57 PM EDT

[#27]

Interesting stuff, OP. I know others have said the same thing, but I had no clue the P90's magazine was not an original concept.

Posted: 2/2/2013 8:19:34 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
It was a nifty concept, but there were a couple idiosyncrasies.

The cyclic rate sped up as it fired, so the last 2 rounds in the burst were at a faster rate of fire than the first 2. And, since there were no cartridge cases, there was no vehicle to get heat out of the mechanism. Turns out the brass case sucks up a lot of heat and throws it out of the weapon thus keeping it cooler than the caseless concept which dumps all the heat into the barrel and bolt.

I dont have the original list of requirements for the G11 but all the prototypes use caseless ammo can this be because one of them was for the weapon to have full protection from external filt,this may be a understandable reason for the weapon to be covered so with no case there is no need for a ejection port(?).

Posted: 2/2/2013 8:37:07 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

Quoted:
It was a nifty concept, but there were a couple idiosyncrasies.

The cyclic rate sped up as it fired, so the last 2 rounds in the burst were at a faster rate of fire than the first 2. And, since there were no cartridge cases, there was no vehicle to get heat out of the mechanism. Turns out the brass case sucks up a lot of heat and throws it out of the weapon thus keeping it cooler than the caseless concept which dumps all the heat into the barrel and bolt.

I dont have the original list of requirements for the G11 but all the prototypes use caseless ammo can this be because one of them was for the weapon to have full protection from external filt,this may be a understandable reason for the weapon to be covered so with no case there is no need for a ejection port(?).

There needs to be some type of ejection port to clear misfire, else a bad primer takes the weapon out of commission until it can be stripped.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Posted: 2/2/2013 9:51:47 AM EDT

[#30]

http://www.co2air.de/wbb3/index.php?page=Thread&postID=1060836774

Posted: 2/2/2013 9:58:51 AM EDT

[#31]

http://bradsexcellentadventure.blogspot.pt/2010/09/three-museums.html

Posted: 2/2/2013 10:29:26 AM EDT

[#32]

Mauser G11 prototype and experimental mechanism

http://www.runestorm.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=75526&start=120

Does someone have eny info on the experimental mechanism.

Thank you.

Posted: 2/4/2013 5:57:28 AM EDT

[#33]

Caseless ammunition

http://www.google.com/patents/US5243914?printsec=drawing&hl=pt-BR#v=onepage&q&f=false

Posted: 2/7/2013 5:27:38 AM EDT

[#34]

The H&K G11 as a ACR

http://kirito.servegame.com/gunsworld/german/hk/g11/G11.htm#HK%20ACR

http://kirito.servegame.com/gunsworld/usa/r/acr/acr.htm

Posted: 2/7/2013 10:32:29 AM EDT

[#35]

H&K G11 mechenism

http://kirito.servegame.com/gunsworld/german/hk/g11/g11bolt.htm

Posted: 2/7/2013 11:05:43 AM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:

Quoted:
It sure would be nice if you could get a P90 in an effective cartridge like 9mm, . 40, or .45. 10mm would be badass.

Don't tell anyone hit by a 5.7mm round that it is not effective.

I got to handle a dealer sample gray trigger pack and went through 5 fifty rounders in no time at all.

Very devastating weapon platform and caliber.

Only compact device that scares me more than that would be a 556 out of a 10" 1x14 barrel.

I never knew about the retro top feeder, thanks for that!

Okay, fine. Don't tell anyone shot with a .22 CB that it doesn't hurt, either. Let me state this very clearly: No matter what the fanboys say, there is not a single 5.7x28mm load that is as terminally effective as 9mm or other service calibers. I don't believe there ever will be, either.

That said, the real P90 (select fire) is fairly decent for its intended purpose, which is a PDW. It offers a cartridge that is very flat shooting in a package that's easy to operate and it provides better performance against soft armor than pistol cartridges. In semi mode it is easy enough to score hits with and at close range, the full auto somewhat makes up for the lackluster terminal performance. For us regular folks it amounts to a cool toy chambered in an expensive cartridge that you'll absolutely have to reload for.

Posted: 2/7/2013 1:54:10 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:

Quoted:
It sure would be nice if you could get a P90 in an effective cartridge like 9mm, . 40, or .45. 10mm would be badass.

Don't tell anyone hit by a 5.7mm round that it is not effective.

I got to handle a dealer sample gray trigger pack and went through 5 fifty rounders in no time at all.

Very devastating weapon platform and caliber.

Only compact device that scares me more than that would be a 556 out of a 10" 1x14 barrel.

I never knew about the retro top feeder, thanks for that!

Okay, fine. Don't tell anyone shot with a .22 CB that it doesn't hurt, either. Let me state this very clearly: No matter what the fanboys say, there is not a single 5.7x28mm load that is as terminally effective as 9mm or other service calibers. I don't believe there ever will be, either.

That said, the real P90 (select fire) is fairly decent for its intended purpose, which is a PDW. It offers a cartridge that is very flat shooting in a package that's easy to operate and it provides better performance against soft armor than pistol cartridges. In semi mode it is easy enough to score hits with and at close range, the full auto somewhat makes up for the lackluster terminal performance. For us regular folks it amounts to a cool toy chambered in an expensive cartridge that you'll absolutely have to reload for.

Question - why is "flat shooting" a desirable trait in a "personal defense weapon"? One assumes that, at anything over 100m, the best personal defense would be to take cover or run.

I think you hit the mark on your comment on full auto, though. It gives people the ability to do their own personal Death Blossom when things get tight. Which I personally don't think is a very good idea, but I don't make purchasing decisions.

(Because if I did it would be chambered in 7.62x25

)

Posted: 2/7/2013 5:01:51 PM EDT

[#38]

"G11

The G11 was a experimental weapons project started by Mauser GmbH. It was later taken over by Heckler und Koch GmbH.

The G11 project was unique in that it fired caseless rounds.

The original G11 was produced by Mauser.

Very little is known about the Mauser G11 whatsoever, other than it was designed in the 70's, it was chambered to fire a 4.75mm caseless round from ten-round magazines and had a muzzle velocity of 1000 metres per second. The rate of fire is thought to be around 1500 rounds per minute.

The Mauser prototype.

ater models were produced by Heckler and Koch.

These models were all essentially different takes on the same design. The K (Kurz) models were shorter, carbine variants of the P (Prototype) models."

http://poopmeister.wikia.com/wiki/G11