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Posted: 9/30/2013 12:42:39 PM EST
Prototypes for the AN-94 Soviet AN-94 assault rifle.
http://alternathistory.org.ua/eksperimentalnye-i-opytnye-obraztsy-oruzhiya-izhevskogo-mashinostroitelnogo-zavoda |
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Posted: 9/30/2013 12:46:43 PM EST
[#1]
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Posted: 9/30/2013 12:49:55 PM EST
[#2]
Never heard of such a thing! Are those mostly polymer? Ugly as hell but interesting!
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Posted: 9/30/2013 12:59:00 PM EST
[#3]
Very interesting! I think its a fascinating gun, and if combined with their quad stack magazines would be a very formidable weapon.
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Posted: 9/30/2013 1:03:34 PM EST
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Never heard of such a thing! Are those mostly polymer? Ugly as hell but interesting! This was the Soviet SALVO program,it was a way to make a weapon controllable in auto,ths one fires two shots in one pulse,it fires te first shot with the barrel front and as it recols,the barrel slides back to strip/chamber/fire the second shot,the weapon is complicated,the longer ejection port is so cases can be ejected when it fires with the barrel fron and back as the barrel feeds the second shot...it all started in the 1960s with a prototype that fired 3 shots using a sliding barrel... 
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Posted: 9/30/2013 1:08:16 PM EST
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This was the Soviet SALVO program,it was a way to make a weapon controllable in auto,ths one fires two shots in one pulse,it fires te first shot with the barrel front and as it recols,the barrel slides back to strip/chamber/fire the second shot,the weapon is complicated,the longer ejection port is so cases can be ejected when it fires with the barrel fron and back as the barrel feeds the second shot...it all started in the 1960s with a prototype that fired 3 shots using a sliding barrel... http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090517015336/guns/images/f/fd/AO-62.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Never heard of such a thing! Are those mostly polymer? Ugly as hell but interesting! This was the Soviet SALVO program,it was a way to make a weapon controllable in auto,ths one fires two shots in one pulse,it fires te first shot with the barrel front and as it recols,the barrel slides back to strip/chamber/fire the second shot,the weapon is complicated,the longer ejection port is so cases can be ejected when it fires with the barrel fron and back as the barrel feeds the second shot...it all started in the 1960s with a prototype that fired 3 shots using a sliding barrel... http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090517015336/guns/images/f/fd/AO-62.jpg Kinda similar to my franchi 48 |
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Posted: 9/30/2013 1:12:27 PM EST
[#6]
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Posted: 9/30/2013 1:22:28 PM EST
[#7]
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Posted: 9/30/2013 1:25:56 PM EST
[#8]
They fielded them with one Regiment in 1984 according to my sources. Not sure what the results were after that, other than the USSR and Russian Federation have preferred to stay with a Kalashnikov design.
The idea behind the An-94 is to send 2 projectiles within a fraction of a second of each other into the same spot on a target to defeat armor. Personal pics: 
VAL & VSS: 
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Posted: 9/30/2013 2:01:57 PM EST
[#9]
I dont know but i think this was a atempet to make the Kalashnikov controllable in auto...
"Experimental AK with balanced automatics" 
" Take a look on this experimental gun with balanced automatics - it was designed to decrease butt kickback and increase accuracy of hits. It never made its way into the Army though." ...i think that as the piston/rod moves back,it operates a wheel (?) in a compartment were the gas tube normaly is,i think the idea was to create a gyroscopic effect to keep the barrel down when firing in auto,note that the carrier is machined... http://kalashnikov-weapons-museum.ak47-guide.com/ch5.html |
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Posted: 9/30/2013 3:45:27 PM EST
[#10]
Here is a good video of Trey Knight and Larry Vickers talking about the AN94.
They start talking about it at 4:40 minutes. Trey Knight interviews Larry Vickers Search youtube for videos of it firing. The whole upper receiver and barrel reciprocates... Here is one video The first two rounds go off at 1800rpm, the second round leaves the barrel before its affected by the recoil from the first shot. Larry calls it 'hyper fire' in the interview. |
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Posted: 10/1/2013 12:33:20 AM EST
[#11]
The weapon is the result of the Abakan project,it is a new weapon that uses the same ammo and magazine as it is more practical then all the ones that came out from the Special Purpose Individual Weapon and Advanced Combat Rifle projects.
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Posted: 10/1/2013 4:04:00 PM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The weapon is the result of the Abakan project,it is a new weapon that uses the same ammo and magazine as it is more practical then all the ones that came out from the Special Purpose Individual Weapon and Advanced Combat Rifle projects. http://www.firearmsworld.net/usa/r/acr/5924684.jpg Funny how the ACR is the only one that looks like a real gun in that picture. 
~Augee |
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Posted: 10/2/2013 3:09:38 AM EST
[#13]
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Posted: 10/2/2013 3:25:53 AM EST
[#14]
Awesome thread.
I never got to see the guts of one, interesting. |
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Posted: 10/2/2013 5:00:12 AM EST
[#15]
As the bolt moves back,for the second shot,it makes the cable move a rammer front so it conects with a cafe (from the rear) so it parcialy strips the case out of the magazine so it can be chambered by the rear moving barrel,for the second shot...it makes sence,something as to strip the case out of the magazine for the second shot as this is when the barrel is moving back with the bolt all to the rear,the weapon looks as ti does as it is a prototype making something new,the next ones may be more simple...at one time,the Maxim MG was seen as a "light" and simple weapon,not because it was but because of its capacity,and this is what it is,a new weapon with a new capacity...the magazne is tilted to the right side...
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Posted: 10/2/2013 5:09:40 AM EST
[#16]
cool!.............a cross between a rifle and a garage door cable/spring system.
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Posted: 10/2/2013 5:28:43 AM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
cool!.............a cross between a rifle and a garage door cable/spring system. ...find a simpler way to make the rammer operate with the bolt,patent it,go to the Russian federation,and get them to buy the patent...  ...get them to pay with caviar...
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Posted: 10/2/2013 6:41:03 AM EST
[#18]
Ive read a few articles on the AN94 before this, and seen some video....but it wasnt until this thread that I noticed the mag is slightly offset
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Posted: 10/2/2013 6:46:46 AM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ive read a few articles on the AN94 before this, and seen some video....but it wasnt until this thread that I noticed the mag is slightly offset This is why we exist,its all in the detail... 
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Posted: 10/2/2013 7:15:08 AM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
...find a simpler way to make the rammer operate with the bolt,patent it,go to the Russian federation,and get them to buy the patent... ...get them to pay with caviar...Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
cool!.............a cross between a rifle and a garage door cable/spring system. ...find a simpler way to make the rammer operate with the bolt,patent it,go to the Russian federation,and get them to buy the patent... ...get them to pay with caviar...Assuming they needed mag compatibility, a simpler solution would have been to use two barrels and a double carrier that stripped two rounds out of the mag at once. That Rube Goldberg pulley contraption just reeks of mechanical inefficiency. |
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Posted: 10/2/2013 8:29:47 AM EST
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Assuming they needed mag compatibility, a simpler solution would have been to use two barrels and a double carrier that stripped two rounds out of the mag at once. That Rube Goldberg pulley contraption just reeks of mechanical inefficiency. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
cool!.............a cross between a rifle and a garage door cable/spring system. ...find a simpler way to make the rammer operate with the bolt,patent it,go to the Russian federation,and get them to buy the patent... ...get them to pay with caviar...Assuming they needed mag compatibility, a simpler solution would have been to use two barrels and a double carrier that stripped two rounds out of the mag at once. That Rube Goldberg pulley contraption just reeks of mechanical inefficiency. ...like the SALVO rifle... 
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Posted: 10/2/2013 8:48:17 AM EST
[#22]
I hate to run threads off topic, but since you brought up teh Salvo, here, you can buy a stock http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=368375099
That should keep you busy finding the rest of the pieces. Back on topic, it strikes me that one could reasonably produce a fascimile of the AN94 with an AR-180 and some bondo. |
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Posted: 10/2/2013 9:26:43 AM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not exactly. The whole point of the AN94 was to deliver two rounds at almost the same time to the same point of aim. They tried to do this by having what amounted to a "machine gun inside a machine gun," so to speak. The salvo rifle is just two FALs welded together, more or less; even if those two rounds somehow leave the barrels with the same trajectory, they're still going to hit the target about an inch apart. What I'm talking about is a rifle with a single barrel and two bores that are very close together, with an action that chambers and fires the two rounds slightly apart. Not trying to derail the thread, the pictures of those rifles are fascinating. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
cool!.............a cross between a rifle and a garage door cable/spring system. ...find a simpler way to make the rammer operate with the bolt,patent it,go to the Russian federation,and get them to buy the patent... ...get them to pay with caviar...Assuming they needed mag compatibility, a simpler solution would have been to use two barrels and a double carrier that stripped two rounds out of the mag at once. That Rube Goldberg pulley contraption just reeks of mechanical inefficiency. ...like the SALVO rifle... http://www.humanevents.com/images/SalvoRifle01.jpg http://www.humanevents.com/images/SalvoRifle02.jpg http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Salvo_Rifle_01.jpg http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Salvo_Rifle_11.jpg http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Salvo_Rifle_10.jpg http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Salvo_Rifle_07.jpg http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Salvo_Rifle_02.jpg http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Salvo_Rifle_03.jpg http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Salvo_Rifle_05.jpg http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Salvo_Rifle_06.jpg http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Salvo_Rifle_08.jpg http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Salvo_Rifle_12.jpg Not exactly. The whole point of the AN94 was to deliver two rounds at almost the same time to the same point of aim. They tried to do this by having what amounted to a "machine gun inside a machine gun," so to speak. The salvo rifle is just two FALs welded together, more or less; even if those two rounds somehow leave the barrels with the same trajectory, they're still going to hit the target about an inch apart. What I'm talking about is a rifle with a single barrel and two bores that are very close together, with an action that chambers and fires the two rounds slightly apart. Not trying to derail the thread, the pictures of those rifles are fascinating. yes,having the two shots coming out one barrel get closer then from two side by side barrels,but then again the dference from the two shots in thr salvo (horintaly fired) bay be similar to the one from the two shots on the an94,the two shots fired from the sigle barrel dont have the same exact line and there may be a minimal up movement from the barrel,i think. |
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Posted: 10/2/2013 10:03:27 AM EST
[#25]
Odd looking Russian prototypes for sure.
The U.S. developed a proto back in the 80's that fired 2 rounds almost simultaenously. Had a chamber that rotated around a transverse axis. Not sure if it was related to the Advanced Combat Rifle pictured above. I know one of the protos with the rotating chamber used caseless ammo, which seemed to be the weak point. The idea was the first round was not even out the barrel before the second was firing. Or somethin like that |
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Posted: 10/2/2013 10:23:35 AM EST
[#26]
That was the AAI ACR,and on the SPIW, think they had that type of drum chamber mechenism back in the days of the SALVO prototypes,it is a logical way to get the job done,the other way is to have two bullets insde one single case,Colt used it on the ACR rifle prototype
RECORDS OF THE SPRINGFIELD ARMORY : Records of the Research and Engineering Division Rotary SALVO Gun, Caliber .22 Mechanism in Locked Position (Mock-Up) 21-160 
...the cases are inside a rotor chamber,i could be a getling type mechenism but with the drum rotating on a single barrel... Colt ACR 
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Posted: 10/2/2013 11:09:38 AM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Odd looking Russian prototypes for sure. The U.S. developed a proto back in the 80's that fired 2 rounds almost simultaenously. Had a chamber that rotated around a transverse axis. Not sure if it was related to the Advanced Combat Rifle pictured above. I know one of the protos with the rotating chamber used caseless ammo, which seemed to be the weak point. The idea was the first round was not even out the barrel before the second was firing. Or somethin like that Are you maybe thinking of the G11? 
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Posted: 10/2/2013 4:00:27 PM EST
[#28]
That appears to be it. Did not recall a salvo of 3, but rather two. But my memory is far from perfect. Some branch of U.S. military was evaluating and tweaking it from the way it sounded.
Supposedly the two rounds were not guaranteed to make the same hole; But statistically you would be much more likely to get hits on a man-sized target at longer ranges than with a quick follow up shot from any conventional weapon tested. Interesting idea. Part of the system depended on the caseless ammo, and IIRC electric ignition. The caseless ammo was susceptible to moisture and rough handling. Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Odd looking Russian prototypes for sure. The U.S. developed a proto back in the 80's that fired 2 rounds almost simultaenously. Had a chamber that rotated around a transverse axis. Not sure if it was related to the Advanced Combat Rifle pictured above. I know one of the protos with the rotating chamber used caseless ammo, which seemed to be the weak point. The idea was the first round was not even out the barrel before the second was firing. Or somethin like that Are you maybe thinking of the G11?  http://youtu.be/MdErfyYeJeU |
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Posted: 10/3/2013 11:38:59 AM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Supposedly the two rounds were not guaranteed to make the same hole; But statistically you would be much more likely to get hits on a man-sized target at longer ranges than with a quick follow up shot from any conventional weapon tested. Interesting idea. Part of the system depended on the caseless ammo, and IIRC electric ignition. The caseless ammo was susceptible to moisture and rough handling. IIRC, part of the whole point of the various ACR designs was a 100% increase in hit probability over the M16, hence the duplex rounds, and other multiple projectile solutions. It's an interesting idea, but I'm inclined to think we dodged a bullet (pardon the pun) by not going with that kind of setup - given the way history played out and with U.S. forces soon thereafter playing a lot of "policeman" and peacekeeper in low-intensity conflict areas, if we had gone into these situations with duplex rounds or other similar multiple projectile designs, it would have proven to be a much bigger liability with multiple stray rounds. ~Augee |
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Posted: 10/3/2013 11:52:09 AM EST
[#30]
Aug, You are dead on. The whole salvo idea is crawling with collateral issues from the get-go. Your post put my vague feeling of "what's wrong with this picture" into words.
Kudos. One of the few times I have seen the word 'liability' used in legal/moral sense in a technical discussion. Quote HistoryQuoted:
IIRC, part of the whole point of the various ACR designs was a 100% increase in hit probability over the M16, hence the duplex rounds, and other multiple projectile solutions. It's an interesting idea, but I'm inclined to think we dodged a bullet (pardon the pun) by not going with that kind of setup - given the way history played out and with U.S. forces soon thereafter playing a lot of "policeman" and peacekeeper in low-intensity conflict areas, if we had gone into these situations with duplex rounds or other similar multiple projectile designs, it would have proven to be a much bigger liability with multiple stray rounds. ~Augee Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Supposedly the two rounds were not guaranteed to make the same hole; But statistically you would be much more likely to get hits on a man-sized target at longer ranges than with a quick follow up shot from any conventional weapon tested. Interesting idea. Part of the system depended on the caseless ammo, and IIRC electric ignition. The caseless ammo was susceptible to moisture and rough handling. IIRC, part of the whole point of the various ACR designs was a 100% increase in hit probability over the M16, hence the duplex rounds, and other multiple projectile solutions. It's an interesting idea, but I'm inclined to think we dodged a bullet (pardon the pun) by not going with that kind of setup - given the way history played out and with U.S. forces soon thereafter playing a lot of "policeman" and peacekeeper in low-intensity conflict areas, if we had gone into these situations with duplex rounds or other similar multiple projectile designs, it would have proven to be a much bigger liability with multiple stray rounds. ~Augee |
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