Guys,

Working on a 723 "BHD" build and have been studying this photo...

I've seen this weapon listed as a 653, but considering the fact that Dan Schilling was one of the planners of the operation, I would think that he might have had access to the 723 and 733s purchased COTS.  Furthermore, there are a few things that make me think that it's a 723 not a 653... First, the use of a delta ring rather than a slip ring.  Second, the stock appears to be synthetic (fiberlite) as it lacks the gloss of the vinyl coated aluminum stocks common on the 653.  And finally, it has a small round button FA, which I don't think was produced during the 653's run.

The only thing that keeps me from being 100% on it being a 723 is the A1 grip....were these ever used on the 723?

Here's a pic from a Colt catalogue I think. The 723 has an A2 grip and a C7 upper

I patterned my 723 clone on that pic

There's also a 1985 catalog that shows an A1 upper (without the bump).

From what I have seen, the A2 grip is just about the only thing consistent about factory RO723 carbines besides the 1/7 barrel twist.  

While everything else about them was remarkably flexible and subject to great variety, I've never seen one confirmed as an RO723 that did not have an A2 grip from the factory.  

On the other had, as an AF guy, who's to say what that lower started its life as?  I know you've been back and forth in the GAU/GUU threads on Retro about AF mixmaster carbines - and there's little to say that it couldn't be an RO723 upper on an R653 or heck, even R604 lower.  Fiberlite stocks wouldn't be too uncommon, and it's not difficult to switch them out - and as far as the delta ring is concerned... well, if he could have his handguards installed sideways because he felt it was somehow advantageous, who's to say he couldn't demand the "new" style slip (delta) ring, too?  

I would say that it's most likely legacy lower.  Or - who knows, you could be right and it was a factory RO723, but he, like so many others, might not have liked the A2 pistol grip with the finger bump, and replaced it with an A1 - but if that's the case, it would have left the factory with an A2.  

~Augee

Augee, you may be right about the upper being a 723 on a 653 lower...I thought I had remembered reading that the 75th boys had 727s built on 653 lowers in Somalia, so it's within the realm of possibilities.

The upper is def. not a 653 IMHO...too many "late" features.  You can even make out an A2 ejection port door.

Probably a 653 in that pic, they were still floating around at that time, especially with AF units.   rebuilt mix master, or a newer upper on a older lower.  Most of the pics of the CAG guys show later 723s with the stepped M4 barrels, but the pics of Paul Howe all show him with a lightweight profile barreled carbine with a 203, so either he was carrying a legacy 653 or the lightweight barreled 723s were still around.

700 series would have A2 grips, A2 flash suppressors, and 1/7 rifling.

Good catch on the Delta Ring vice flat slip ring and large round button fwd assist, hadn't noticed those before in that pic.

Lots of the 700 series from that time frame (723s and 727s) were built on A1 forging lowers marked M16A2.

the lower in the above picture is an A1 forging

That rumor about 75th INF replacing 653 uppers with 727 or XM4 (720?  725?) uppers has been all but dispelled - caused by a poor understanding of Colt commercial carbines and the XM4 - and the fact that the term "M4" may have been used for a little bit before the M4 was in fact adopted.  

The principal causes of the confusion were that the lowers in photos were clearly A1 profile, and reported to be automatic.  

The assumption was initially that since the RO727 was the M16A2 Carbine, A1 lowers were inappropriate and must be explained.  Furthermore "XM4s" could be expected to have been in BURST configuration, rather than AUTO.  Some would therefore believe that XM4 uppers were retrofitted to existing R653 lowers, explaining both the A1 profile lowers and fully automatic fire control group.  

However, the same elements that you pointed out about this particular carbine conspired to make that doubtful.  For starters, it's become abundantly clear that it was not at all uncommon for commercial M16A2s of any configuration to be built on A1 forgings.  

Furthermore, all photos of RO727s indicate A2 pistol grips and fiberlite CAR stocks.  One would expect that if they were XM4 uppers retro-fitted to R653 lowers, at least some would have retained the vinyl acetate stocks and/or A1 grips - like many Air Force carbines.  

As such, while 75th INF may have conducted some field testing with the XM4, it is quite unlikely that a) if they had, they would have been allowed to either keep the uppers after testing to install on their own lowers, or b) field test a complete weapon system, but discard half of the whole weapon.  Rather, it is more likely that as was the habit at the time (when no M16 carbine had been type-classified since the XM177E2) that entire carbines were purchased COTS.  If they purchased R653 COTS, why would they not purchase RO727s COTS as well when the ammunition standard changed to 1/7 twist barrels?  Especially since, at the time, 75th INF was not a 100% carbine equipped force, but rather carbines were issued only to certain individuals determined by rank and position (much like the issue of the M4A1 CQBR now - not ever soldier receives one).  

What makes that particular carbine harder to pin down is the fact that it's not an Army weapon, but an Air Force weapon, probably a GUU-5P.  As such, the lower could have come off of just about anything since the R604 and built into a carbine for AFSOC.  Stocks and pistol grips are much more commonly switched out and on the "wrong" lowers - like the 601 based carbine posted in Retro not so long ago with an A2 pistol grip.  

One thing is certain, if it was being used in Gothic Serpent in 1993, it almost certainly has a 1/7 twist barrel - not a 1/12.  But that still doesn't tell us what it started out as.  It could be an entire replacement upper, it could be a factory upper, it could be a replacement barrel and delta ring.  

Again, I've posted pictures myself of an Air Force carbine that was basically an R653 - but with an RO723 barrel (.625 diameter, 1/7 twist).  It also had an A2 pistol grip, but A1 flash suppressor and lock ring.  That was as late as 2007/8.  Other more recent photos show even more oddities.  It's almost impossible at this point to determine what that carbine was unless Dan Shilling were to tell us himself - "I got it new from the factory and decided the only changes I'm going to make are the pistol grip and the handguards" or if we had the serial number and a close-up of the receiver markings.  Short of that, he may know no more than "I got a GAU / GUU / CAR-15."  

~Augee

Good points...I'm just curious if this was, in fact, an AF carbine.  Dan was one of 10 CCTs involved in the events of Oct 3, and I'm sure there were Several PJs as well...I was under the assumption that these guys would have fallen under the auspices of  Delta or the Rangers and would have drawn weapons from Delta/Ranger stores.

Don't know how it was done in '93, but in my experience, if you get an attachment from AFSOC like that, they usually come with their own weapons.  

That doesn't preclude drawing another from your gaining unit, of course - there's a picture of a CCT in the MK12 thread using a Mod 0 that I suspect came from his ODA.  

I don't see any reason that his "home" unit wouldn't have provided him with his own GUU-5P, though.  No reason not to, you never know how many spare weapons your gaining unit is going to have, and an AFSOC carbine is/was "functionally identical" to anything anyone else was using.  

Hard to say, nevertheless, but .625 M16A2 carbines seem to have been relatively limited to the CT groups, while 75th INF and NSW are almost exclusively seen with .750 barreled 723s and 727s.  AFSOC, again, thanks to the mix-master nature of their weapons had all sorts of "non-factory" configurations.  Plus, having installed the handguards sideways intentionally, who knows what else he might have had done to that weapon, whatever it started as, he clearly wasn't satisfied with "stock."  

Among the other things that might have helped ID the carbine would have been if we could see the flash suppressor, but no such luck in that photo.  

One thing that points to it being an "older" or "6xx-series" lower is that it doesn't appear to have a selector tic, which 7xx-series carbines would have.  

~Augee

That makes sense...Good eye!  Didn't think to look for the selector tic.  

Thanks again for your service Augee!  I always enjoy your photos & reading your posts...keep 'em coming!

Augee:
One thing I would like to point out on this picture of the weapon in question.  I carried the USAF GAU for a few years.  In that short time, In only saw one with a forward assist.  The soldier in the grainy picture is carrying a carbine with a forward assist.  I don't think that this was a USAF upper reciever.

Edit:

One more thing is that the optic mounted is on a rail that attached to the carry handle.  The few times we used the standard 4X Power scopes on our M16S we used a scope with a build in drilled hole with threads that a bolt inserted from under the carry handle screwed directly into the scope.

Txsgar15a2, thanks for your service!

No doubt the vast majority of GAU/GUUs were slicksides, but I believe the AF does have some 653s in their arsenal...There are a few photos of airmen carrying FA equipped weapons;





I've also come across a couple photos of FA equipped carbines being used in a USAF training exercise...will see if I have those saved.

Someone may have already said it, but the grip on the rifle in the OP looks like a Lonestar grip.

Not my photo:

I thought the Lonestar grips had a finger groove like an A2, and a pronounced swelling to the back side as well?

Looks like there are two types.

There are different types of Lonestar grips, however, I have to say, based on that photograph, I'm still inclined to say that it's a standard A2 grip, not a Lonestar Ordnance part.  Just IMHO, but it looks like it has a "straight" not arched backstrap.  

Txsgar15a2 - as others have said, while many GAU/GUUs have been built on 604 and/or other slickside uppers, there's good evidence that the Air Force had COTS R653s in the inventory, then converted to 1/7 twist barrels when the switch was made from M193/196 to M855/856.







I photographed this GUU-5P being used by an Air Force 2LT in Afghanistan in late 2007/early 2008.  Marked "M16A1" with commercial rollmarks on the lower receiver, as well as all typical R653 parts, except for the 1/7 twist RO723 barrel assembly.  

~Augee

Are you talking about the grip on the rifle in the OP, Augee? That can't be an A2 grip. No finger bump. It does look to me, however, that it has the arched backstrap of the Lonestar grip.

I think he meant A1...I'm inclined to agree, I have a mid 70's A1 off my SP1 that has a gentle arc.

Here's another photo of a forward assist carbine (653?) take from the AF website...you can just make out the teardrop FA button

Here's a higher definition photo of Schilling...you can pretty clearly see the optic is an Aimpoint 3000, the use of a wire sling adapter & M1 sling, the A1 lower, and it looks to me like its definitely an A1 grip.  Stock looks to me to be a fiberlite (rib on front edge of the stock is narrower than the aluminum stocks).  Since 653s were not originally fitted with fiberlite stocks, I think its safe to assume it may very well be an AF rebuild.

Also note that you can even see the forge marks on the upper receiver...can't make out what they are, but they're there.

To further muddy the waters.

Between the summer of 1986 and the summer of 1991 I did regularly see and interface with elements of the 3/1 S.F., 2/75 RANGER and USAF TACP (ROMAD) on FT. Lewis and Yakima Firing Center equipped with with the following: XM177 types and variations followed by skinny (A1 contour) then later "heavy" (I.E. A2 contour)14.5" barreled carbines.

ROMADS were with us quite often. By '89 the ROMADS had replaced their legacy weapons, mostly XM177 types and variations, with the GAU5 (insert alphabet suffix) that we just called GAU5's. They were A1 profile, 14.5" barreled carbines with fiberite stocks.

I should have taken notes.


Edit To Add

The sideways hand guard trick is to redirect sidewards, the heat mirage generated by a hot barrel, from rising straight up in line with the optic of your choice.

We did this in the very late 70's and early 80's with our CAR 15's. I highly doubt we were the first.

B44T,

Were the AF carbines 1-7 twist or 1-12?

What mods are required to do this?
Ralph

The Colt "727" type carbines that I saw in ARSOF and NAVSOC use were all auto.

Commerical "M16a2" markings.

Sorry, I did mean "A1 grip" not "A2 grip," the photo just doesn't look like a Lonestar profile to me.

Stottman - I think you might find these photos interesting, not sure if you saw them in the Armory thread on the CQBR, but it seems a lot of those 723 and 727 lowers are still in service, like this CQBR on an RO727 (I presume) lower:





The poster reported that this was one of several he had seen, and confirmed that they retained their original two position receiver extensions.  

~Augee

Neat. I am assuming Navy.

Navy EOD had 727s in 2001, right before 9/11....

That was my first thought as well, but the OP is saying Group SF (ODA).  

He's also saying the ODA is using Sig P226s as sidearms...

All signs point to NSW, but he's pretty insistent, and I'm going to file it under "reported to be" rather than grill him with too many gray side of OPSEC/PERSEC questions when he's trying to be helpful.  Anyways, it's not impossible, plus, I can think of at least one reason NSW guys might be travelling as an ODA, there may be more.  

Here's the original thread link:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_51/353394_Building_an_M4_CQBR__some_questions.html&page=4&anc=3250751#i3250751

~Augee

Quite possible they came from the JOS warehouse (SOCOMs loaner closet).

Allot of the SOCOM specific stuff comes out of there.

Like I said, definitely not impossible, and not reasonable to grill the poor guy.  It doesn't really affect my research whether they're NSW or USASOC weapons.  It reinforces the fact that 10.3" uppers are issued as M4A1 CQBR accessory upper receiver groups for use on existing lowers, not as MK18 weapon systems to SOF.  

As for the OP and Shilling's rifle, I'm still voting either an AF rebuild from a rifle with a 723 upper, or a rebuilt 653.  The high contrast photo seems to confirm that the selector lever is a "no tic" selector which wouldn't be present on a factory 723 and would almost certainly not be something that anyone (except us retro freaks ) would worry about changing, unlike pistol grips, handguards, sliprings, stocks, optics, ect.  Particularly with high contrast, when even the upper receiver forge codes are showing up, a nice, deep "tic" in the selector like those used by Colt on A2 series rifles would have at least shown up as a smudge.  

Could also possibly be a rebarreled XM upper - the FA could have been changed at some point in time for whatever reason... could "explain" the delta ring.  Suffice to say, by the time the photo was taken, any and all parts would be "in the inventory."  I think almost the only conclusive statement I would make is that it should be a 1/7 barrel.

~Augee

Dang Augee, love reading your posts!  After seeing the higher contrast photo, I'm inclined to agree with the assessment of it being a rebuilt 653.  

Do you have any more info on AF COTS 653's?  I know you posted pics of a re-barreled one in the sand box a while back...

Seen a few rebuilt 653 types over the years as well.

The one I fondled was commercial "M16A1" marked. No GUU5 markings, etc.

It simply had its pencil barrel replaced with an M4 barrel. Some had plastic stocks, other metal.

This was 1997, in the hands of AF Air controllers attached to 3ID. Back when an M4 was a status symbol.

Stottman, thanks for your service and the info...makes sense that the AF would rebuild them to updated M855 compatible spec.  

Your sightings of AF COTS 653's is right in line with Augee's sightings...cool stuff!

Without sounding like a complete noob......how can you ID a 653 lower receiver?  I think I might have handled a commercial M16A1 marked lower that was converted to GUU-5/P.....

-Rico

If it had commercial M16A1 markings, it's almost definitely an R653 lower.  

Converted rifle lowers will have either U.S. Prop markings or be of much older (pre-604) vintage.

Pre-653 lowers might have many combinations of commercial markings as well, but "late-style" commercial M16A1 rollmarks wouldn't be common.  They could also be R654s but I don't think they were very common, if the USAF in fact purchased any at all.  We've seen many 654 "configured" carbines, but it's hard to say whether or not they came from the factory that way.  Existing photos make it hard to determine, and almost all would have been converted to GUU-5/P specs by now with 1/7 barrels, hard to determine their provenance without going back and checking serial numbers - and for commercial models, I don't know if even Colt's records are detailed enough - and I think they charge for that in-depth research.  

RO723s would have been marked either "M16A2" or "M16A2E/M4" if the AF had any, which again, I'm not certain of.  M16A2 marked lowers could still be A1 forgings, however.  On the other hand, I've never seen an M16A2E/M4 marked lower on anything other than an A2 forging.  They are in service, however, as I've seen a .750 barreled 723 marked M16A2E/M4 in Afghanistan as late as 2008 - but it was in Army use.  

~Augee

I have a pic of the GUU I worked on wih the commercial M16A1 markings.   Apparently it had its barrel changed to an M4 profile barrel sometime in its lifetime.  I'll post a pic when I get a chance.

OK, not sure if this "is" a commercial/export Colt 653, but this particular GUU stood out from the rest of the GUU-5/P's I've inspected in the past.....











-Rico

That looks like what I'm getting

Is that a "D" "K" forge code?

Appears to be.  The DK uppers were replacement uppers contracted by the US, not Diemaco as some have believed in the past.

Yeah, I had a Bushmaster rifle with that same forge code.....

Almost certainly an R653 lower - but that's really an interesting interesting carbine in the small details.  At a first glance it looks like nothing too spectacular, but the small parts make you do a double take.  

As others have mentioned, the "D K" marked upper is a contract replacement - teardrop FA, A1 style port door, fiberlite stock, flat slip ring.

Looks like an A2 comp, but I can't really tell?  

In many ways, it almost looks more like a typical IDF carbine than a typical GUU-5/P.  

~Augee

Whittle clearance notch for gas tube at 90 degrees of usual position. if heat shields interfere toss them.

I do not know.

Most of the GUU-5/P's I've inspected were 1x7 (both with M4 and A1 profile barrels).  About the only 1x12 twist barrels I've seen were old M16 barrels and an old GAU-5A barrel.  I have yet to see a 653 barrel on a GUU upper.....

-Rico