HBAR vs. Gov't profile barrel

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - HBAR vs. Gov't profile barrel

Posted: 2/15/2017 10:19:10 PM EDT

I've recently acquired an AR15 A2 style rifle. The upper is a Bushmaster HBAR. I've read that the Gov't profile barrel is 16 oz's lighter than an hbar.
I scaled it the other day with a loaded 20 rnd. mag, and it weighed in around 9 1/2 lbs.

The weight would be fine for a range rifle, but I plan on using it also for a little hunting, and that's where the weight would make a difference.
What I'm asking is, would it be worth it to have the barrel turned down to a Gov't profile... would there be much accuracy loss? It's pretty accurate now. I shot two, three rnd. groups last sat. that were around three quarters of an inch at 50 yds.

I can get this job done by a friend that is a very good gunsmith, at a good price. I know I could buy another barrel, but would cost over twice as much than the re-contour.

I'm not sure it would be worth it... what do ya'll think.

Posted: 2/15/2017 10:41:39 PM EDT

[#1]

As long as you do not exceed minimum dimensions, I do not see any problems.
I had ADCO do one for me about 3 yrs ago. No change in accuracy whatsoever.

General guidelines to consider:

Posted: 2/15/2017 11:02:41 PM EDT

[#2]

Right. I don't want to exceed the min. dia.
I've been trying to find the dia. specs on the A2 Gov't profile, and haven't come up with much. Does anyone know what they are? I read where one guy said it was .675 from the chamber taper, to .600 near the FSB.

One thing that concerns me is how much the heat treatment of the barrel would be effected from the lathe cutting.

I was going to send it to ADCO, but in needing to use my gunsmith's tools to pull the barrel, he said he could do it for less... he did try to talk me out of doing it, though. He believes it would loose accuracy.

Posted: 2/16/2017 9:30:41 AM EDT

[#3]

Rather than pay a gunsmith to turn down a perfectly good barrel. Why don't you sell the upper and replace it with one that has a govt. profile barrel?

Posted: 2/16/2017 11:37:57 AM EDT

[#4]

Quote History

Quoted:
Rather than pay a gunsmith to turn down a perfectly good barrel. Why don't you sell the upper and replace it with one that has a govt. profile barrel?

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I would not sell the upper. If anything, have someone who knows what they are doing (like ADCO) re-profile the barrel to the Gov't contour and re-parkerize it. ADCO has been re-profiling barrels for years and has an excellent reputation. It will not hurt any real value to have the original barrel re-profiled. Personally, I would try to keep as original as you can. The old Bushmasters are excellent ARs.

Posted: 2/16/2017 11:39:02 AM EDT

[#5]

I'd keep it all together & reprofile it
- there's something nice about a full factory gun, and the bushamster colors might not always match on the receivers

That said, I'd keep it as a Hbar too, its heavier for sure, but it doesn't bother me much.

Oh and a big +2 on ADCO, they do outstanding work!

Posted: 2/16/2017 7:18:47 PM EDT

[#6]

No, I'm not going to sell the upper.

Thanks for the replies.... believe I'll keep it as it is... for now.

Posted: 2/16/2017 9:12:48 PM EDT

[#7]

I too have a BM HBAR, I striped it down to a bare barrel and had a friend who is a CNC machinist cut 10 flutes under the handguards. Measuring the depth of opposing flutes there is still .800" of barrel with the flutes starting just past the chamber and stopping short of the handguard end cap. It's the barrel in my avatar.

Posted: 2/16/2017 10:09:56 PM EDT

[#8]

Did it retain the same accuracy after the flute cuts, and how many ounces did it loose.

Posted: 2/16/2017 10:12:51 PM EDT

[#9]

I haven't weighed it but it is better balanced, took 2nd place in the 2012 Mid-South Guard and Reserve rifle match with it if that answers the accuracy question.

Posted: 2/16/2017 10:28:35 PM EDT

[#10]

Again, ADCO does this service everyday.
And no loss in accuracy on mine. It'll shoot moa with good ammo and focus.

Posted: 2/16/2017 11:38:23 PM EDT

[#11]

Quote History

Quoted:
I haven't weighed it but it is better balanced, took 2nd place in the 2012 Mid-South Guard and Reserve rifle match with it if that answers the accuracy question.

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Sounds like it didn't loose a bit of accuracy, SSgt

Tig, good to hear that ADCO did good job on your barrel contour. MOA shooting with irons is great. Are you using 69 grn. Fed. match.

Posted: 2/17/2017 8:42:42 AM EDT

[#12]

Quote History

Quoted:

Sounds like it didn't loose a bit of accuracy, SSgt

Tig, good to hear that ADCO did good job on your barrel contour. MOA shooting with irons is great. Are you using 69 grn. Fed. match.

View Quote

I'm using Hornady Custom .233/55 gr. My bbl is 1-9" twist so I am somewhat limited.

This bbl no longer wears irons, I run a Nikko-Stirling 6-24x56 Targetmaster on it. Coyote killer.
Most of my shots are >200 yrds and almost all are head shots.

I will tell you, before I changed things up, this bbl shot the same as before the reprofile. I could not see any change whatsoever. And ADCO reparked it nicely.

Posted: 3/22/2017 1:18:39 PM EDT

[#13]

I've got an HBAR barrel and it was an easy sub MOA. I would definitely not mess with it and leave it as is. OP, if you want a Gov profile barrel, just go out and buy another barrel or upper.

My SA20 barrel with the HBAR for comparison:

Posted: 3/22/2017 8:26:45 PM EDT

[#14]

Years ago I had Kurt from KKM (RIP) re-profile a HBAR carbine Bushmaster barrel to government profile. Lighter and handy, no effect on accuracy.

Posted: 3/22/2017 8:39:48 PM EDT

[#15]

turn it down to a Gov't profile

Posted: 3/22/2017 8:50:46 PM EDT

[#16]

Government profile all the way!!! HBAR is heavy as hell and not really useful.

Posted: 3/22/2017 9:00:09 PM EDT

[#17]

Quote History

Quoted:
Government profile all the way!!! HBAR is heavy as hell and not really useful.

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I agree.

I bought a Colt HBAR in '91 thinking I would love it. It's muzzle heavy and a poorly balanced gun. Shoots great but is akward as hell.

Last spring I built a flat top with a Govt profile barrrl and it's a very accurate, balance rifle. It's become my favorite.

Govt profile for all around, general use.

HBAR if you have a specific need it satisfies.

Posted: 3/22/2017 9:17:11 PM EDT

[#18]

Quote History

Quoted:

I would not sell the upper. If anything, have someone who knows what they are doing (like ADCO) re-profile the barrel to the Gov't contour and re-parkerize it. ADCO has been re-profiling barrels for years and has an excellent reputation. It will not hurt any real value to have the original barrel re-profiled. Personally, I would try to keep as original as you can. The old Bushmasters are excellent ARs.

View Quote

yep

Posted: 3/23/2017 12:42:52 AM EDT

[#19]

If you're going to have it custom profiled, why pick the most bass-ackwards barrel profile ever invented?

I'd suggest something on the order of .700 under the handguards, and .650~.680 in front of the FSB.

Posted: 3/23/2017 8:13:33 AM EDT

[#20]

Quote History

Quoted:
If you're going to have it custom profiled, why pick the most bass-ackwards barrel profile ever invented?

I'd suggest something on the order of .700 under the handguards, and .650~.680 in front of the FSB.

View Quote

This…. I'm planning the same thing for a Colt HBAR upper that I recently picked up. Similar to the the "Special Purpose profile" highlighted above.

Posted: 3/23/2017 3:28:40 PM EDT

[#21]

Quote History

Quoted:
If you're going to have it custom profiled, why pick the most bass-ackwards barrel profile ever invented?

I'd suggest something on the order of .700 under the handguards, and .650~.680 in front of the FSB.

View Quote

Cuz it's light. And it still works. Just as an A1 profile works. Does it really matter that's it's a bit heavier in front of the handguards? I'm not saying it's the most awesome profile ever, but the profile you are suggesting will still be heavier than a govt' profile. Obviously. I think in a shorter barrel a medium profile is a good way to go. But any way you slice it, a govt' 20" barrel is a heck of a lot handier than an HBAR 20"er. Blaaaaah. Unless you're just going to shoot from a rested position. Or shooting HiPower.

Posted: 3/23/2017 7:33:09 PM EDT

[#22]

Quote History

Quoted:
Rather than pay a gunsmith to turn down a perfectly good barrel. Why don't you sell the upper and replace it with one that has a govt. profile barrel?

View Quote

This is what I did. Replaced my Colt Hbar barrel with a Gov profile barrel. Works just as well.

Posted: 3/24/2017 1:19:25 AM EDT

[#23]

You'd be money ahead to sell what you have and buy what you want. 0.75" at 50 yards is about 1.5 MOA, which isn't impressive at all for an AR barrel. You should determine what it can really do if you're interested in keeping it. It should be able to do much better. If not, you should definitely sell it.

I like government profile barrels. HBARs are good for benchrest (if they're precise), CMP style competitions, and as LMG barrels (if 4150CV and chrome lined). That's it. Lighter barrels are more versatile.

If you compare the A1 barrel to the A2 government profile, just think of it as adding a little weight on the end. If you're going to add just a little weight, that's where you want it. It aids in marksmanship by giving better offhand balance. Testing also showed the forward weight to slightly aid controllability in full auto. The difference in mass isn't great enough to do anything for LMG use.

And of course, everyone knows you can't mount your M203 on a HBAR.

Unless it's a LMT M203-2003, or you've got a M320 or something.

Cloners 'gonna clone.

Posted: 3/24/2017 8:34:47 AM EDT

[#24]

Quote History

Quoted:
If you're going to have it custom profiled, why pick the most bass-ackwards barrel profile ever invented?

I'd suggest something on the order of .700 under the handguards, and .650~.680 in front of the FSB.

View Quote

I know it's popular to jump onto the government profile hate train, but it has two things going for it:

1.) Muzzle-weighted barrels tend to be more steady offhand (AKA a "running boar barrel", many biathlon barrels are muzzle-weighted).
2.) Arguably, the most important part of a barrel is the last part, where the bullet exits the barrel. I would rather have the stiffest part of the barrel in the last several inches instead of the first several inches.

Posted: 3/24/2017 9:15:45 PM EDT

[#25]

Quote History

Quoted:
You'd be money ahead to sell what you have and buy what you want. 0.75" at 50 yards is about 1.5 MOA, which isn't impressive at all for an AR barrel. You should determine what it can really do if you're interested in keeping it. It should be able to do much better. If not, you should definitely sell it.

I like government profile barrels. HBARs are good for benchrest (if they're precise), CMP style competitions, and as LMG barrels (if 4150CV and chrome lined). That's it. Lighter barrels are more versatile.

If you compare the A1 barrel to the A2 government profile, just think of it as adding a little weight on the end. If you're going to add just a little weight, that's where you want it. It aids in marksmanship by giving better offhand balance. Testing also showed the forward weight to slightly aid controllability in full auto. The difference in mass isn't great enough to do anything for LMG use.

And of course, everyone knows you can't mount your M203 on a HBAR.

Unless it's a LMT M203-2003, or you've got a M320 or something.

Cloners 'gonna clone.

View Quote

Since when is 1.5 MOA bad shooting?

Posted: 3/24/2017 10:19:13 PM EDT

[#26]

It isn't bad for ball ammo, but if you want to know the capabilities of a barrel, it should be fired supported with match-grade ammo. Otherwise you won't be proving anything. The odds of finding another barrel capable of 1.5 MOA are great, 1 MOA less so, 0.8 MOA even less.

Posted: 3/25/2017 8:15:32 PM EDT

[#27]

Quote History

Quoted:

I know it's popular to jump onto the government profile hate train, but it has two things going for it:

1.) Muzzle-weighted barrels tend to be more steady offhand (AKA a "running boar barrel", many biathlon barrels are muzzle-weighted).
2.) Arguably, the most important part of a barrel is the last part, where the bullet exits the barrel. I would rather have the stiffest part of the barrel in the last several inches instead of the first several inches.

View Quote

I'm not sure where this thread was ever a government profile "hate train" thread. The guy has a high quality barrel with tons of material to play with…. he can have it turned down to suit his specific needs for a nominal price. I see that as an opportunity… not a hinderance.

I'm not who you are arguing with in regard to "2." I do appreciate the laugh though. Cheers!

Posted: 3/25/2017 8:18:38 PM EDT

[#28]

Quote History

Quoted:

Since when is 1.5 MOA bad shooting?

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Ever since Internet Commandos have been rocking sub 1 MOA through their gov't profile barrels using M885 ammo!

Posted: 3/26/2017 10:49:41 AM EDT

[#29]

Windham Weaponry is the answer you seek. They are "old" Bushmaster. I recently built a 20" upper using the gov't profile barrel. Good stuff. Keep the upper you have, use WW to build yourself a new gov't profile upper that has the pedigree of old Bushmaster.

Posted: 3/26/2017 4:55:31 PM EDT

[#30]

Quote History

Quoted:
....
I'm not who you are arguing with in regard to "2." I do appreciate the laugh though. Cheers!

View Quote

Not everybody will notice it.

Posted: 3/26/2017 6:08:50 PM EDT

[#31]

Quote History

Quoted:

Ever since Internet Commandos have been rocking sub 1 MOA through their gov't profile barrels using M885 ammo!

View Quote

And an RDS at 100 yards. Yeah OK.

Posted: 3/26/2017 10:15:26 PM EDT

[#32]

FYI, you absolutely need to EXCEED MINIMUM dimensions. I.E. taking the area under the hand guard down to around 0.700 inches.

Paladin

Posted: 3/28/2017 8:53:12 PM EDT

[#33]

I shot this group at 100 yds. off the bench the other day. Mil spec trigger, 55 grn. Federal value pack.

I don't know that I could do any better than this with irons. I probably could with a scope, but I'm not mounting one on a carry handle.

Posted: 3/28/2017 11:19:27 PM EDT

[#34]

Great shooting!!!! Looks like 3" maybe???

I don't mind a carry handle optic. I've gotten some good groups before with one up there. Not awesome, but decent.

Posted: 3/30/2017 9:16:34 PM EDT

[#35]

Quote History

Quoted:
Great shooting!!!! Looks like 3" maybe???

I don't mind a carry handle optic. I've gotten some good groups before with one up there. Not awesome, but decent.

View Quote

Thanks,

It's a 2 1/2 " group. Would of been 2" if I hadn't of had those two low ones.

Posted: 4/3/2017 8:28:21 AM EDT

[#36]

Quote History

Quoted:
I shot this group at 100 yds. off the bench the other day. Mil spec trigger, 55 grn. Federal value pack.

I don't know that I could do any better than this with irons. I probably could with a scope, but I'm not mounting one on a carry handle.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb120/IMR_2007/HPIM6727_zpsgpmgrckp.jpg

View Quote

With handloads that group could be tighter.

Posted: 4/6/2017 9:55:50 AM EDT

[#37]

Quote History

Quoted:
I'd keep it all together & reprofile it
- there's something nice about a full factory gun, and the bushamster colors might not always match on the receivers

That said, I'd keep it as a Hbar too, its heavier for sure, but it doesn't bother me much.

Oh and a big +2 on ADCO, they do outstanding work!

View Quote

That makes no sense. Are you or are you not reprofiling? It wont be factory if you reprofile as you would likely loose the factory markings. Cant have the cake and eat it too!
Now on to logic. I would imagine that the price for reprofiling then refinishing would approach the price of a new barrel. Seems to me, sell the barrel, kick in a few dollars and get the one you want. Versus throw alot more than a few bucks into this endeavor.
Something to note. Reprofiling changes harmonics. Just the heat from cutting sets up new types of stresses within the metal itself. Is your freind going to restress relieve after turning. Yet another expense making the project completely financially foolish.
Even though you heard of a guy that did this with "no change" in accuracy, that is far from the norm. Dont be surprised when it does not work out that way for you.
Imagine if a government profile barrel could give the same accuracy as an HBAR? Wouldnt all the guys shooting the national matches at Camp Perry (600 yards IRON SIGHTED!!) feel stupid!!!
Thats sarcasm for "HBAR will always out perform gov profile in accuracy and heat tolerance.

Posted: 4/6/2017 10:04:05 AM EDT

[#38]

Sinse when has the guard allowed a non rack grade not in their inventory rifle compete in their events?

quote]Quoted:
I haven't weighed it but it is better balanced, took 2nd place in the 2012 Mid-South Guard and Reserve rifle match with it if that answers the accuracy question.[/quote

Posted: 4/6/2017 12:42:51 PM EDT

[#39]

Gov't profiled and un-banned by ADCO 16SEPT04.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - HBAR vs. Gov't profile barrel

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