Colt 5.56 77gr bthp

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Colt 5.56 77gr bthp

Posted: 5/29/2013 1:27:34 PM EST

Any one have experience with this ammo. From what I can tell it looks failry new. I picked up a few boxes on Midway but I would like to hear some opinions. It is loaded by Black Hills also which is interesting. Im debating stocking up. Thanks

Posted: 5/29/2013 1:37:45 PM EST

[#1]

Black Hills has been making this stuff, which is normally called MK 262 Mod 0 or 1, depending on which 1 you have, for a long time. Mod 0 does not have a cannelure, and Mod 1 does....they've sold tons of this to the military to use in MK 12 SPR's, and some shoot it well in M4 carbines as well. These are both 77 grain BTHP bullets. It can be duplicated with the proper components if you reload, which I've done up several hundred of them and they're sitting in the ammo cans for a rainy day

. Hope this helps!

Posted: 5/29/2013 2:28:24 PM EST

[#2]

I thought the BH MK 262 mod 1 and 2 both used the OTM and not the BTHP round though?

Posted: 5/29/2013 2:30:22 PM EST

[#3]

I bought 4 boxes (that's the max they'd let me buy). Shipped yesterday.

Posted: 5/29/2013 2:36:07 PM EST

[#4]

Im sure its some good stuff. I have been reading Molon's post on the 77gr rounds that he has tested but havent seen the Colt's ammo being tested yet. THe SSA 77 gr round is intreging me also and I picked some of that so I will compare the two when it comes in. But it wiouldnt even be on par with Molons testing....

Posted: 5/29/2013 5:26:22 PM EST

[#5]

Quoted:
I thought the BH MK 262 mod 1 and 2 both used the OTM and not the BTHP round though?

Same thing.

Posted: 5/29/2013 5:37:52 PM EST

[#6]

Quoted:
I thought the BH MK 262 mod 1 and 2 both used the OTM and not the BTHP round though?

OTM = Open Tipped Match; BTHP = Boat Tail Hollow Point. They're the same bullet.

Sierra Matchking bullets are BTHPs, but the military uses the OTM designation (evidently, they didn't like the hollowpoint name).

I suspect that the Colt offering is the same as the Black Hills Mk262. Same matchking bullet, same Lake City annealed casings.

I also picked up several boxes since I can't find any Black Hills Mk262 at the moment.

Posted: 5/30/2013 8:40:07 AM EST

[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I thought the BH MK 262 mod 1 and 2 both used the OTM and not the BTHP round though?

OTM = Open Tipped Match; BTHP = Boat Tail Hollow Point. They're the same bullet.

Sierra Matchking bullets are BTHPs, but the military uses the OTM designation (evidently, they didn't like the hollowpoint name).

I suspect that the Colt offering is the same as the Black Hills Mk262. Same matchking bullet, same Lake City annealed casings.

I also picked up several boxes since I can't find any Black Hills Mk262 at the moment.

No, they (the US Military) can't use hollow points in international warfare.

Taken from Wikipedia:

"The Hague Convention of 1899, Declaration III, prohibited the use in international warfare of bullets that easily expand or flatten in the body.[3] This is often incorrectly believed to be prohibited in the Geneva Conventions, but it significantly predates those conventions, and is in fact a continuance of the St. Petersburg Declaration of 1868, which banned exploding projectiles of less than 400 grams, as well as weapons designed to aggravate injured soldiers or make their death inevitable. NATO members do not use small arms ammunition that is prohibited by the Hague Convention."

So, Colt is making ammo now? I might have to buy some just because

ETA: I see now, relabeled BH Stuff. I might snag a couple boxes anyway.

Posted: 5/30/2013 9:29:41 AM EST

[#8]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I thought the BH MK 262 mod 1 and 2 both used the OTM and not the BTHP round though?

OTM = Open Tipped Match; BTHP = Boat Tail Hollow Point. They're the same bullet.

Sierra Matchking bullets are BTHPs, but the military uses the OTM designation (evidently, they didn't like the hollowpoint name).

I suspect that the Colt offering is the same as the Black Hills Mk262. Same matchking bullet, same Lake City annealed casings.

I also picked up several boxes since I can't find any Black Hills Mk262 at the moment.

No, they (the US Military) can't use hollow points in international warfare.

Taken from Wikipedia:

"The Hague Convention of 1899, Declaration III, prohibited the use in international warfare of bullets that easily expand or flatten in the body.[3] This is often incorrectly believed to be prohibited in the Geneva Conventions, but it significantly predates those conventions, and is in fact a continuance of the St. Petersburg Declaration of 1868, which banned exploding projectiles of less than 400 grams, as well as weapons designed to aggravate injured soldiers or make their death inevitable. NATO members do not use small arms ammunition that is prohibited by the Hague Convention."

So, Colt is making ammo now? I might have to buy some just because

ETA: I see now, relabeled BH Stuff. I might snag a couple boxes anyway.

Open Tipped Match =/= Hollow Point.

Posted: 5/30/2013 10:15:05 AM EST

[#9]

Sierra Matchkings and other OTMs are not hollow points. The opening at the tip is a by product of the way the jacket is applied during production. This is why they are landwarfare legal. The hollowpoint look is completely superficial.

SMKs do not equal hollowpoints.

OTMs do not equal hollowpoints

Hornaday's 75gr BTHP in their TAP line is not a hollowpoint, although it is called one.

OTMs are essentially FMJs with very thin jackets, hence their fragmenting behavior. None of them mushroom or expand.

Posted: 5/30/2013 10:58:29 AM EST

[#10]

So Black Hills is making it under the Colt logo? I have one 1:7 AR and I would flat love to get some of that 77gr. It shoots great with PRVI 75gr OTM. I have a 4X ACOG on it. Fortunately I had sense enough to get a small supply of the PRVI before the SHTF. It also shoots 62gr fine, but to a different point, so I'm sticking with the 75-77gr for that one and saving the 62gr for my Colt 1:9 (6721).

Posted: 5/30/2013 1:38:03 PM EST

[#11]

Muad, I beg to differ on your post and reference...the US military has been using the MK 262 Mod 0 & Mod 1 ammo for many years now. I've got good friends who have used it and it does as advertised. The taliban and other muslims are not a standing army from a recognized country is how they are able to use it, but I think it can be used anyway. Just as the M852 7.62 NATO BTHP for sniper rigs, and also the MK 318 stuff that is a 62 grain bonded hollow point as well. It puts the targets on the ground quick, if the shooter does his job. These friends are using Colt M4A1's, HK 416, and the referenced MK 12 SPR rifles. Hope this helps the OP..also, I don't think Colt has ever produced any ammo in the last 100 yrs or more. Black Hills might be referencing the Colt logo or something, as I haven't been to the website to look at them.

Posted: 5/30/2013 1:59:06 PM EST

[#12]

Quoted:
Muad, I beg to differ on your post and reference...the US military has been using the MK 262 Mod 0 & Mod 1 ammo for many years now. I've got good friends who have used it and it does as advertised. The taliban and other muslims are not a standing army from a recognized country is how they are able to use it, but I think it can be used anyway. Just as the M852 7.62 NATO BTHP for sniper rigs, and also the MK 318 stuff that is a 62 grain bonded hollow point as well. It puts the targets on the ground quick, if the shooter does his job. These friends are using Colt M4A1's, HK 415, and the referenced MK 12 SPR rifles. Hope this helps the OP..also, I don't think Colt has ever produced any ammo in the last 100 yrs or more. Black Hills might be referencing the Colt logo or something, as I haven't been to the website to look at them.

Read Dave's explanation. It's accurate.

Posted: 5/31/2013 5:51:32 AM EST

[#13]

Quoted:

Muad, I beg to differ on your post and reference...the US military has been using the MK 262 Mod 0 & Mod 1 ammo for many years now. I've got good friends who have used it and it does as advertised. The taliban and other muslims are not a standing army from a recognized country is how they are able to use it, but I think it can be used anyway. Just as the M852 7.62 NATO BTHP for sniper rigs, and also the MK 318 stuff that is a 62 grain bonded hollow point as well. It puts the targets on the ground quick, if the shooter does his job. These friends are using Colt M4A1's, HK 416, and the referenced MK 12 SPR rifles. Hope this helps the OP..also, I don't think Colt has ever produced any ammo in the last 100 yrs or more. Black Hills might be referencing the Colt logo or something, as I haven't been to the website to look at them.

That's fine, and I'm fully aware of the SMK "OTM" projectiles that are used in loads by US forces. As Davetrader pointed out, they are not "hollow points".

I was simply pointing out to Jimbo412 why the military can't use the term hollow points, and they refer to them as OTM.

Posted: 5/31/2013 1:47:55 PM EST

[#14]

You are right the military likes to whitewash its terminology in all aspects. WTF are "sunshine units". However, they can not use the term "hollowpoint" because the ammo is not. The Mil is correct and Hornady and other manufactures are wrong, more likely its done not to confuse consumers although boattail match might be a better term.

The Mil only fields one true hollow point that I can think of, the 70gr Barnes load known as BrownTip Optimized or some other nonsense. This load is only use by Special Forces who are exempt from the treaty.

Posted: 5/31/2013 2:01:59 PM EST

[#15]

Quoted:
You are right the military likes to whitewash its terminology in all aspects. WTF are "sunshine units". However, they can not use the term "hollowpoint" because the ammo is not. The Mil is correct and Hornady and other manufactures are wrong, more likely its done not to confuse consumers although boattail match might be a better term.

The Mil only fields one true hollow point that I can think of, the 70gr Barnes load known as BrownTip Optimized or some other nonsense. This load is only use by Special Forces who are exempt from the treaty.

Considering that the U.S. never sign the Hague Convention they technically are all exempt. They also issue 147gr JHP’s in 9MM for NCIS/CID personal.

Posted: 5/31/2013 3:43:50 PM EST

[#16]

Just received my order of Colt branded 5.56mm 77gr SMKs.

Initial Observations: The bullet is definitely a 77gr Sierra Match King. The brass have the WCC and NATO cross headstamps. The brass has the annealing consistent with the Mk262 brass.

I have no doubt these rounds are identical to the red box 77gr OTM (Mk262) rounds manufactured by Black Hills.

Only problem is that they sell for $5 more per 100 over the cost of Black Hills boxed rounds. And since they're sold by Midway, your order is limited to 5 boxes of 20 (or 100 rounds).

Posted: 5/31/2013 5:22:56 PM EST

[#17]

Quoted:
Just received my order of Colt branded 5.56mm 77gr SMKs.

Initial Observations: The bullet is definitely a 77gr Sierra Match King. The brass have the WCC and NATO cross headstamps. The brass has the annealing consistent with the Mk262 brass.

I have no doubt these rounds are identical to the red box 77gr OTM (Mk262) rounds manufactured by Black Hills.

Only problem is that they sell for $5 more per 100 over the cost of Black Hills boxed rounds. And since they're sold by Midway, your order is limited to 5 boxes of 20 (or 100 rounds).

Where are you finding Black Hills right now?

Posted: 5/31/2013 6:07:24 PM EST

[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Just received my order of Colt branded 5.56mm 77gr SMKs.

Initial Observations: The bullet is definitely a 77gr Sierra Match King. The brass have the WCC and NATO cross headstamps. The brass has the annealing consistent with the Mk262 brass.

I have no doubt these rounds are identical to the red box 77gr OTM (Mk262) rounds manufactured by Black Hills.

Only problem is that they sell for $5 more per 100 over the cost of Black Hills boxed rounds. And since they're sold by Midway, your order is limited to 5 boxes of 20 (or 100 rounds).

Where are you finding Black Hills right now?

That's the problem...you can't find any Black Hills at most places. The Colt offering is an alternative to the red box offering and the Colt boxes are clearly marked that they're loaded by Black Hills.

You can get these at Midway (5 box limit).

Colt Match Ammo 5.56X45mm NATO 77 gr SMK

Posted: 6/1/2013 3:35:37 AM EST

[#19]

Quoted:
You are right the military likes to whitewash its terminology in all aspects. WTF are "sunshine units". However, they can not use the term "hollowpoint" because the ammo is not. The Mil is correct and Hornady and other manufactures are wrong, more likely its done not to confuse consumers although boattail match might be a better term.

The Mil only fields one true hollow point that I can think of, the 70gr Barnes load known as BrownTip Optimized or some other nonsense. This load is only use by Special Forces who are exempt from the treaty.

Actually dave you are incorrect in your explanation but clearly know the difference in the two designs. You are associating the term hollow point with expanding hollow point and not concidering the two the same in your mind. While in design, they look the same, in function clearly different. An expanding hollow point is one that is DESIGNED to reliably expand adding to it's lethality where as a match hollow point is one that is a product of design. Both are absolutely true hollow points and correctly described as such. From your explaination this is something you obviouslly understand but for clarification to others I have explained.

P

Posted: 6/1/2013 10:28:23 AM EST

[#20]

Quoted:

Quoted:
You are right the military likes to whitewash its terminology in all aspects. WTF are "sunshine units". However, they can not use the term "hollowpoint" because the ammo is not. The Mil is correct and Hornady and other manufactures are wrong, more likely its done not to confuse consumers although boattail match might be a better term.

The Mil only fields one true hollow point that I can think of, the 70gr Barnes load known as BrownTip Optimized or some other nonsense. This load is only use by Special Forces who are exempt from the treaty.

Actually dave you are incorrect in your explanation but clearly know the difference in the two designs. You are associating the term hollow point with expanding hollow point and not concidering the two the same in your mind. While in design, they look the same, in function clearly different. An expanding hollow point is one that is DESIGNED to reliably expand adding to it's lethality where as a match hollow point is one that is a product of design. Both are absolutely true hollow points and correctly described as such. From your explaination this is something you obviouslly understand but for clarification to others I have explained.

P

You are 100% correct.
We are reaching a problem of semantics vs terminology that conveys information to the end user.
May i present the Monolithic Non-Expanding Flat Base Non-Toxic Hollow Point.

Posted: 6/1/2013 11:46:34 AM EST

[#21]

Damnit I was hoping that no one else would catch on to this. Yes it is MK262 mod1 and I have been ordering a little at a time. I guess it will all be gone soon now.

Posted: 6/1/2013 4:44:53 PM EST

[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:
You are right the military likes to whitewash its terminology in all aspects. WTF are "sunshine units". However, they can not use the term "hollowpoint" because the ammo is not. The Mil is correct and Hornady and other manufactures are wrong, more likely its done not to confuse consumers although boattail match might be a better term.

The Mil only fields one true hollow point that I can think of, the 70gr Barnes load known as BrownTip Optimized or some other nonsense. This load is only use by Special Forces who are exempt from the treaty.

Actually dave you are incorrect in your explanation but clearly know the difference in the two designs. You are associating the term hollow point with expanding hollow point and not concidering the two the same in your mind. While in design, they look the same, in function clearly different. An expanding hollow point is one that is DESIGNED to reliably expand adding to it's lethality where as a match hollow point is one that is a product of design. Both are absolutely true hollow points and correctly described as such. From your explaination this is something you obviouslly understand but for clarification to others I have explained.

P

You are 100% correct.
We are reaching a problem of semantics vs terminology that conveys information to the end user.
May i present the Monolithic Non-Expanding Flat Base Non-Toxic Hollow Point.
http://nitroexpress.info/ezine/CptCurlFiles/BigBoreRifles/Drew_Jaeger/Projectile_Performance/P8090234.jpg

Do tell!

I bet that hog would disagree with your "non-lethal" description.

P

Posted: 6/1/2013 7:42:40 PM EST

[#23]

I bought some a couple of weeks ago, and Midway shows the Velocity and Energy is the same as the Mk262 Mod1. Looks the same as some that I have, it's just more expensive per round, and comes in boxes of 20 vs 50. Both were currently in Stock at Midway last I checked.

Posted: 6/2/2013 7:09:04 AM EST

[#24]

Black Hills is currently in stock as is Colt.

Posted: 6/2/2013 11:22:58 AM EST

[#25]

Quoted:

Quoted:
You are right the military likes to whitewash its terminology in all aspects. WTF are "sunshine units". However, they can not use the term "hollowpoint" because the ammo is not. The Mil is correct and Hornady and other manufactures are wrong, more likely its done not to confuse consumers although boattail match might be a better term.

The Mil only fields one true hollow point that I can think of, the 70gr Barnes load known as BrownTip Optimized or some other nonsense. This load is only use by Special Forces who are exempt from the treaty.

Actually dave you are incorrect in your explanation but clearly know the difference in the two designs. You are associating the term hollow point with expanding hollow point and not concidering the two the same in your mind. While in design, they look the same, in function clearly different. An expanding hollow point is one that is DESIGNED to reliably expand adding to it's lethality where as a match hollow point is one that is a product of design. Both are absolutely true hollow points and correctly described as such. From your explaination this is something you obviouslly understand but for clarification to others I have explained.

P

You may or may not agree with this . Most if not ALL Hollow point projectiles for rifle caliber's have BONDED jackets. The lead core and the copper jacket are bonded to help it expand and not fragment.
ALL OTM projectiles are NOT bonded. This is to help them fragment and NOT expand. The cannalure in the MK 262 MOD 1 also helps the projectile to fragment.
I load my own.

Posted: 6/2/2013 1:17:07 PM EST

[#26]

Quoted:

You may or may not agree with this . Most if not ALL Hollow point projectiles for rifle caliber's have BONDED jackets. The lead core and the copper jacket are bonded to help it expand and not fragment.
ALL OTM projectiles are NOT bonded. This is to help them fragment and NOT expand. The cannalure in the MK 262 MOD 1 also helps the projectile to fragment.
I load my own.

Ah, still don't get it then huh.

What ever your talking about is not help it do anything. and the cannelure is their to give the case crimp something to bite into nothing else.

The designers of the Sierra match king sat down to design a match bullet with a bottom drawn jacket. It only has a open tip due to the ease of manufacture versus a pointed meplat. The lack of bonding is ONLY is only because its useless in a match type bullet. The jacket is thin because a match bullet doesn't need anything more then that. Again nothing you mentioned was done to help the bullet fragment or be lethal.

It's pure unadulterated coincidence it makes for a good defensive/offensive round.

And sorry but loading your own doesn't make you an expert on what Sierra thought of when coming up with the SMK. Or military history.

Posted: 6/2/2013 1:32:58 PM EST

[#27]

Bonded or not bonded has nothing to do with it. And non-cannelured heavy OTM's fragment just like the cannelured versions.

Posted: 6/2/2013 2:16:42 PM EST

[#28]

Quoted:

Quoted:

You may or may not agree with this . Most if not ALL Hollow point projectiles for rifle caliber's have BONDED jackets. The lead core and the copper jacket are bonded to help it expand and not fragment.
ALL OTM projectiles are NOT bonded. This is to help them fragment and NOT expand. The cannalure in the MK 262 MOD 1 also helps the projectile to fragment.
I load my own.

Ah, still don't get it then huh.

What ever your talking about is not help it do anything. and the cannelure is their to give the case crimp something to bite into nothing else.

The designers of the Sierra match king sat down to design a match bullet with a bottom drawn jacket. It only has a open tip due to the ease of manufacture versus a pointed meplat. The lack of bonding is ONLY is only because its useless in a match type bullet. The jacket is thin because a match bullet doesn't need anything more then that. Again nothing you mentioned was done to help the bullet fragment or be lethal.

It's pure unadulterated coincidence it makes for a good defensive/offensive round.

And sorry but loading your own doesn't make you an expert on what Sierra thought of when coming up with the SMK. Or military history.

I never said the cannalure was ONLY to help the projectile fragment. Fact of the matter is you DON'T need the cannalure to crimp and for that matter with the proper neck tension there is no need for a neck crimp at all. If you want to believe that the cannalure will not help the projectile to fragment at lower velocity's go right ahead. So you think that bonded jackets will give the same terminal performance as NON bonded will ? If so then carry on I don't think we have any more to talk about.

By the way being a reloader only makes me a reloader that 's all. You really should learn not to make assumptions about people.

Posted: 6/2/2013 6:15:07 PM EST

[#29]

are you loading to the same pressure/velocities as the mk262 and doing so with or without crimped primers?

Posted: 6/2/2013 6:42:19 PM EST

[#30]

Quoted:

I never said the cannalure was ONLY to help the projectile fragment. Fact of the matter is you DON'T need the cannalure to crimp and for that matter with the proper neck tension there is no need for a neck crimp at all. If you want to believe that the cannalure will not help the projectile to fragment at lower velocity's go right ahead. So you think that bonded jackets will give the same terminal performance as NON bonded will ? If so then carry on I don't think we have any more to talk about.

By the way being a reloader only makes me a reloader that 's all. You really should learn not to make assumptions about people.

Ok, I'll try again.

You're making claims that the construction of the Sierra match king bullet was done to enhance fragmentation.

Nothing could be further from the truth. It's all coincidence that the construction of a match bullet like the SMK works well as a meat punch.

I am not and have not made any comment about bonded vs non. And neck tension is nice for a guy who can hand load but for commercial ammo that needs to be grunt proof a crimp in a cannelure is the only way to go. Again it was only requested by the DoD to insure against setback, Sierra didn't want to do it.

Posted: 6/2/2013 6:54:33 PM EST

[#31]

Just ordered some, but 20$ to ship it. Damn it!

Posted: 6/3/2013 1:42:43 AM EST

[#32]

Quoted:
are you loading to the same pressure/velocities as the mk262 and doing so with or without crimped primers?

Mine are loaded on once fired lake city brass. The primer pockets have been swaged. I have no idea what pressures they are reaching. But they are with in about 100FPS of factory ammo. The load was worked up by another reloader who belongs to the same club as me. So I can take no credit for that. The primers are getting some what flat. Which is another reason the primer pockets are swaged and not reamed. As a side note I only use the CCI #41 primer which is a MIL-SPEC primer . It is also a magnum small rifle primer.

Posted: 6/3/2013 1:53:54 AM EST

[#33]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I never said the cannalure was ONLY to help the projectile fragment. Fact of the matter is you DON'T need the cannalure to crimp and for that matter with the proper neck tension there is no need for a neck crimp at all. If you want to believe that the cannalure will not help the projectile to fragment at lower velocity's go right ahead. So you think that bonded jackets will give the same terminal performance as NON bonded will ? If so then carry on I don't think we have any more to talk about.

By the way being a reloader only makes me a reloader that 's all. You really should learn not to make assumptions about people.

Ok, I'll try again.

You're making claims that the construction of the Sierra match king bullet was done to enhance fragmentation.

Nothing could be further from the truth. It's all coincidence that the construction of a match bullet like the SMK works well as a meat punch.

I am not and have not made any comment about bonded vs non. And neck tension is nice for a guy who can hand load but for commercial ammo that needs to be grunt proof a crimp in a cannelure is the only way to go. Again it was only requested by the DoD to insure against setback, Sierra didn't want to do it.

Its not so much the construction but the alloys of the materials used. The fact that a true hollow point and a OTM projectile share one of the same forming processes ( from base to the tip ) is were it ends. The alloys used by far in a whole control what the terminal ballistics will be.

Posted: 6/4/2013 12:59:13 PM EST

[#34]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I never said the cannalure was ONLY to help the projectile fragment. Fact of the matter is you DON'T need the cannalure to crimp and for that matter with the proper neck tension there is no need for a neck crimp at all. If you want to believe that the cannalure will not help the projectile to fragment at lower velocity's go right ahead. So you think that bonded jackets will give the same terminal performance as NON bonded will ? If so then carry on I don't think we have any more to talk about.

By the way being a reloader only makes me a reloader that 's all. You really should learn not to make assumptions about people.

Ok, I'll try again.

You're making claims that the construction of the Sierra match king bullet was done to enhance fragmentation.

Nothing could be further from the truth. It's all coincidence that the construction of a match bullet like the SMK works well as a meat punch.

I am not and have not made any comment about bonded vs non. And neck tension is nice for a guy who can hand load but for commercial ammo that needs to be grunt proof a crimp in a cannelure is the only way to go. Again it was only requested by the DoD to insure against setback, Sierra didn't want to do it.

Its not so much the construction but the alloys of the materials used. The fact that a true hollow point and a OTM projectile share one of the same forming processes ( from base to the tip ) is were it ends. The alloys used by far in a whole control what the terminal ballistics will be.

Reef
Quit while you're ahead...or at least not further behind

. Danno is 100% correct.

"true hollow point"??? as opposed to the otm which is not a "true hollow point" or do we call it the fake hollow point, other hollow point. Yikes

. Do some research.

P

Posted: 6/4/2013 4:21:39 PM EST

[#35]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I never said the cannalure was ONLY to help the projectile fragment. Fact of the matter is you DON'T need the cannalure to crimp and for that matter with the proper neck tension there is no need for a neck crimp at all. If you want to believe that the cannalure will not help the projectile to fragment at lower velocity's go right ahead. So you think that bonded jackets will give the same terminal performance as NON bonded will ? If so then carry on I don't think we have any more to talk about.

By the way being a reloader only makes me a reloader that 's all. You really should learn not to make assumptions about people.

Ok, I'll try again.

You're making claims that the construction of the Sierra match king bullet was done to enhance fragmentation.

Nothing could be further from the truth. It's all coincidence that the construction of a match bullet like the SMK works well as a meat punch.

I am not and have not made any comment about bonded vs non. And neck tension is nice for a guy who can hand load but for commercial ammo that needs to be grunt proof a crimp in a cannelure is the only way to go. Again it was only requested by the DoD to insure against setback, Sierra didn't want to do it.

http://]
Its not so much the construction but the alloys of the materials used. The fact that a true hollow point and a OTM projectile share one of the same forming processes ( from base to the tip ) is were it ends. The alloys used by far in a whole control what the terminal ballistics will be.

Reef
Quit while you're ahead...or at least not further behind

. Danno is 100% correct.

"true hollow point"??? as opposed to the otm which is not a "true hollow point" or do we call it the fake hollow point, other hollow point. Yikes

. Do some research.

P

Really

Have you ever heard of Winchester Power MAX bonded in .223. Its a true hollow point , it expands like most people would expect a hollow point to do.

http://www.winchester.com/products/rifle-ammunition/Advanced/Power-Max-Bonded/Pages/default.aspx

This premium 223 Rem ammo is perfect for hunting white tail deer and wild boar due to the reliable expansion, penetration, and weight retention!

This "protected" hollow point projectile is bonded to prevent jacket/core separation to ensure that its full mass is retained on impact to ensure sufficient penetration for quick, clean kills.

Then tell me that if Sierra wanted to make the 77grn OTM expand and not frag that they couldn't have made changes in the alloys used to keep it from fragmenting. Like a harder lead core and thicker jacket. Or have made it a bonded projectile Like I said you may or may not agree. But to think like Danno that Sierra just put together some materials to make a match projectile with out any concern of its terminal ballistics

Do you think they didn't test it and make some changes along the way to get were its at now ? Come on

Mind you this is just my opinion based on things I have learned from people that are in the business of making ammo. Not just someone on the interweb.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=86

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPH1UpHlC9s It would seem I'm not the only one who thinks that the cannalure aids in the fragmentation of the projectile either. Oh and so you don't try to read to much into that too. As a reloader I know that is NOT the main reason for the neck crimp. It is of benefit though all the same .

Posted: 6/4/2013 5:27:34 PM EST

[#36]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I never said the cannalure was ONLY to help the projectile fragment. Fact of the matter is you DON'T need the cannalure to crimp and for that matter with the proper neck tension there is no need for a neck crimp at all. If you want to believe that the cannalure will not help the projectile to fragment at lower velocity's go right ahead. So you think that bonded jackets will give the same terminal performance as NON bonded will ? If so then carry on I don't think we have any more to talk about.

By the way being a reloader only makes me a reloader that 's all. You really should learn not to make assumptions about people.

Ok, I'll try again.

You're making claims that the construction of the Sierra match king bullet was done to enhance fragmentation.

Nothing could be further from the truth. It's all coincidence that the construction of a match bullet like the SMK works well as a meat punch.

I am not and have not made any comment about bonded vs non. And neck tension is nice for a guy who can hand load but for commercial ammo that needs to be grunt proof a crimp in a cannelure is the only way to go. Again it was only requested by the DoD to insure against setback, Sierra didn't want to do it.

http://]
Its not so much the construction but the alloys of the materials used. The fact that a true hollow point and a OTM projectile share one of the same forming processes ( from base to the tip ) is were it ends. The alloys used by far in a whole control what the terminal ballistics will be.

Reef
Quit while you're ahead...or at least not further behind

. Danno is 100% correct.

"true hollow point"??? as opposed to the otm which is not a "true hollow point" or do we call it the fake hollow point, other hollow point. Yikes

. Do some research.

P

Really

Have you ever heard of Winchester Power MAX bonded in .223. Its a true hollow point , it expands like most people would expect a hollow point to do.

http://www.winchester.com/products/rifle-ammunition/Advanced/Power-Max-Bonded/Pages/default.aspx

This premium 223 Rem ammo is perfect for hunting white tail deer and wild boar due to the reliable expansion, penetration, and weight retention!

This "protected" hollow point projectile is bonded to prevent jacket/core separation to ensure that its full mass is retained on impact to ensure sufficient penetration for quick, clean kills.

Then tell me that if Sierra wanted to make the 77grn OTM expand and not frag that they couldn't have made changes in the alloys used to keep it from fragmenting. Like a harder lead core and thicker jacket. Or have made it a bonded projectile Like I said you may or may not agree. Mind you this is just my opinion based on things I have learned from people that are in the business of making ammo. Not just someone on the interweb.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=86

Reef
Your whole premise is off. You said that the SMK was designed to fragment, THAT IS TOTALLY INCORRECT. The SMK was designed to shoot accurately enough to WIN 600 and 1000 yard matches, PERIOD! By design the SMK is SIMPLE. Bonding, either chemically or thermally adds processes that will effect an already very accurate bullet. Sierra has several GKHP, and has for years, that are very reliable bullets that are not bonded. Other than the Power Max I can not thin of another bonded hp in a rifle bullet. SMK are very unreliable fragmenters as well. They typically act like a fmj at most rifle distances due to velocity. Again, do some research.
Oh and also the bonding keeps the lead core and copper jacket from seperating. The skiving in the jacket is what causes the bullet to expand reliably.

P

Posted: 6/5/2013 2:24:24 AM EST

[#37]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I never said the cannalure was ONLY to help the projectile fragment. Fact of the matter is you DON'T need the cannalure to crimp and for that matter with the proper neck tension there is no need for a neck crimp at all. If you want to believe that the cannalure will not help the projectile to fragment at lower velocity's go right ahead. So you think that bonded jackets will give the same terminal performance as NON bonded will ? If so then carry on I don't think we have any more to talk about.

By the way being a reloader only makes me a reloader that 's all. You really should learn not to make assumptions about people.

Ok, I'll try again.

You're making claims that the construction of the Sierra match king bullet was done to enhance fragmentation.

Nothing could be further from the truth. It's all coincidence that the construction of a match bullet like the SMK works well as a meat punch.

I am not and have not made any comment about bonded vs non. And neck tension is nice for a guy who can hand load but for commercial ammo that needs to be grunt proof a crimp in a cannelure is the only way to go. Again it was only requested by the DoD to insure against setback, Sierra didn't want to do it.

http://]
Its not so much the construction but the alloys of the materials used. The fact that a true hollow point and a OTM projectile share one of the same forming processes ( from base to the tip ) is were it ends. The alloys used by far in a whole control what the terminal ballistics will be.

Reef
Quit while you're ahead...or at least not further behind

. Danno is 100% correct.

"true hollow point"??? as opposed to the otm which is not a "true hollow point" or do we call it the fake hollow point, other hollow point. Yikes

. Do some research.

P

Really

Have you ever heard of Winchester Power MAX bonded in .223. Its a true hollow point , it expands like most people would expect a hollow point to do.

http://www.winchester.com/products/rifle-ammunition/Advanced/Power-Max-Bonded/Pages/default.aspx

This premium 223 Rem ammo is perfect for hunting white tail deer and wild boar due to the reliable expansion, penetration, and weight retention!

This "protected" hollow point projectile is bonded to prevent jacket/core separation to ensure that its full mass is retained on impact to ensure sufficient penetration for quick, clean kills.

Then tell me that if Sierra wanted to make the 77grn OTM expand and not frag that they couldn't have made changes in the alloys used to keep it from fragmenting. Like a harder lead core and thicker jacket. Or have made it a bonded projectile Like I said you may or may not agree. Mind you this is just my opinion based on things I have learned from people that are in the business of making ammo. Not just someone on the interweb.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=86

Reef
Your whole premise is off. You said that the SMK was designed to fragment, THAT IS TOTALLY INCORRECT. The SMK was designed to shoot accurately enough to WIN 600 and 1000 yard matches, PERIOD! By design the SMK is SIMPLE. Bonding, either chemically or thermally adds processes that will effect an already very accurate bullet. Sierra has several GKHP, and has for years, that are very reliable bullets that are not bonded. Other than the Power Max I can not thin of another bonded hp in a rifle bullet. SMK are very unreliable fragmenters as well. They typically act like a fmj at most rifle distances due to velocity. Again, do some research.
Oh and also the bonding keeps the lead core and copper jacket from seperating. The skiving in the jacket is what causes the bullet to expand reliably.

P

Federal Fusion has skiving and is also bonded. It would seem that Winchester has come up with another way of getting those results. Is it true that Nosler has also been a supplier of projectiles for the MK262 ? In the mean time I will agree with you that the accuracy of the projectile was their 1st concern. Which is not to say that a projectile that was just as accurate could not have been made or is not made , that has far different terminal ballistics. Your statement about them being unreliable fragmenters is wide open. Every gel test I have seen they have come apart in. Meaning the jacket separated from the core. I don't think I have seen them all and how long the barrel was would have a big affect on that too.

Posted: 6/5/2013 3:34:41 AM EST

[#38]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I never said the cannalure was ONLY to help the projectile fragment. Fact of the matter is you DON'T need the cannalure to crimp and for that matter with the proper neck tension there is no need for a neck crimp at all. If you want to believe that the cannalure will not help the projectile to fragment at lower velocity's go right ahead. So you think that bonded jackets will give the same terminal performance as NON bonded will ? If so then carry on I don't think we have any more to talk about.

By the way being a reloader only makes me a reloader that 's all. You really should learn not to make assumptions about people.

Ok, I'll try again.

You're making claims that the construction of the Sierra match king bullet was done to enhance fragmentation.

Nothing could be further from the truth. It's all coincidence that the construction of a match bullet like the SMK works well as a meat punch.

I am not and have not made any comment about bonded vs non. And neck tension is nice for a guy who can hand load but for commercial ammo that needs to be grunt proof a crimp in a cannelure is the only way to go. Again it was only requested by the DoD to insure against setback, Sierra didn't want to do it.

http://]
Its not so much the construction but the alloys of the materials used. The fact that a true hollow point and a OTM projectile share one of the same forming processes ( from base to the tip ) is were it ends. The alloys used by far in a whole control what the terminal ballistics will be.

Reef
Quit while you're ahead...or at least not further behind

. Danno is 100% correct.

"true hollow point"??? as opposed to the otm which is not a "true hollow point" or do we call it the fake hollow point, other hollow point. Yikes

. Do some research.

P

Really

Have you ever heard of Winchester Power MAX bonded in .223. Its a true hollow point , it expands like most people would expect a hollow point to do.

http://www.winchester.com/products/rifle-ammunition/Advanced/Power-Max-Bonded/Pages/default.aspx

This premium 223 Rem ammo is perfect for hunting white tail deer and wild boar due to the reliable expansion, penetration, and weight retention!

This "protected" hollow point projectile is bonded to prevent jacket/core separation to ensure that its full mass is retained on impact to ensure sufficient penetration for quick, clean kills.

Then tell me that if Sierra wanted to make the 77grn OTM expand and not frag that they couldn't have made changes in the alloys used to keep it from fragmenting. Like a harder lead core and thicker jacket. Or have made it a bonded projectile Like I said you may or may not agree. Mind you this is just my opinion based on things I have learned from people that are in the business of making ammo. Not just someone on the interweb.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=86

Reef
Your whole premise is off. You said that the SMK was designed to fragment, THAT IS TOTALLY INCORRECT. The SMK was designed to shoot accurately enough to WIN 600 and 1000 yard matches, PERIOD! By design the SMK is SIMPLE. Bonding, either chemically or thermally adds processes that will effect an already very accurate bullet. Sierra has several GKHP, and has for years, that are very reliable bullets that are not bonded. Other than the Power Max I can not thin of another bonded hp in a rifle bullet. SMK are very unreliable fragmenters as well. They typically act like a fmj at most rifle distances due to velocity. Again, do some research.
Oh and also the bonding keeps the lead core and copper jacket from seperating. The skiving in the jacket is what causes the bullet to expand reliably.

P

Federal Fusion has skiving and is also bonded. It would seem that Winchester has come up with another way of getting those results. Is it true that Nosler has also been a supplier of projectiles for the MK262 ? In the mean time I will agree with you that the accuracy of the projectile was their 1st concern. Which is not to say that a projectile that was just as accurate could not have been made or is not made , that has far different terminal ballistics. Your statement about them being unreliable fragmenters is wide open. Every gel test I have seen they have come apart in. Meaning the jacket separated from the core. I don't think I have seen them all and how long the barrel was would have a big affect on that too.

If I'm not mistaken Berger is the only company willing to play with this issue, trying to improve upon the lethality of their match bullets for hunting purposes. The general consensus is that if you want to have little groups at 1000+ yards you need a simple bullet that is very consistent. What Berger has done is basically said to not hit bone and run as high a velocity as you can to attain some sort of bullet upset. The rest of the industry, as well as most experienced hunters, have pretty much frowned on their assertions that their match bullet is suitable for hunting. Bottom line is the same thing the ballistic experts have found and that is that otm's are unreliable expanders at rifles distances, 100+ yards.
Barnes has produced a variant of this but went a different route. Monolithic copper/bend. Very consistent which means it is very concentric which leads to great long distance accuracy. They have adjusted their skiving, blends and petal thicknesses to acheve more consistency over a great velocity curve.
I have never personally shot the Power Max or Fusion but have heard the accuracy is just ok, 1 1/2 moa. Certainly no where near that of the otm's. There are several very accurate very lethal bullets; NBT, NAB, TSX, etc. but they are twice to three times the price of otm's.

P