OK so a question has come up locally pertaining to long term storage.

GI Ammo cans will be used with seals but wondering about a little " extra protection " because cans may be stored in non-climate controlled areas all year long.

Is there any reason to NOT USE one of the commercial  food vacuum sealers to seal up the ammo before putting it in the cans?

Any precautions that might need to be taken?

Thanks !!!!!



ETA:  Found an archived thread - think my question has been answered ..... maybe!  

If done right shouldn't hurt.  You can also throw in the cans some of those discentdent (sp) packs.  I would first inspect your cans, check the rubber seal along the top of the can and then lube with proper lube (brain lock on type at moment, but clear jell type).  Baby powder (talc powder) will also keep the rubber supple and prevent dry rotting.


CD

I've never heard of anyone doing this but I can't think of a reason vacuum packed ammo would hurt anything.  Probably not a bad idea actually for long term storage.

its stupid and a waste of time/money



 

Not if you vacuum seal each round individually.


and MOST IMPORTANT:
wear gloves while sealing the rounds, you don't want any oils from your fingers to contaminate the brass.

Well I spoke with a few people and they said it might be a good idea considering the fact that the storage buildings are not climate controlled and the climate extremes can get crazy. Humidity around here is a huge problem.

In my basement alone I can pull 10+ gallons of water out of the air with a dehumidifier in 24 hours.

But I have a neighbor who wants to store stuff in an outbuilding on his property.

I like the idea of using good GI ammo cans ...... packing in a room where humidity is low ( 30% or less ) ..... toss in a desiccant pack and close to up.

Doesn't Russia ship ammo in vacuum sealed " sardine cans? "

Like this .......

( or is there no vacuum )

No vacuum in those Commie spam cans.  It's just sealed so it doesn't get soaked.

Vacuum sealing adds nothing to the longevity of stored ammunition.  It wastes your time working on sealing it up, and takes time to un-seal it.  And a quality steel ammo can with a good seal on it not only works just fine, but it's easier to close and open.

I've tried vacuum sealing ammo using FoodSaver brand bags.  The bags lose the vacuum over time.  I think it's unnecessary. Just stick it in an ammo can and be done with it.

Is it needed? No, can't say it is needed for most people.
Does it hurt anything? Has never hurt any ammo that I sealed.
Is it a waste of time and money? Not to me, but I put all most of my ammo in cans anyway.

12-15 years ago we bought several semi-commercial vacuum sealers and boxes of heavy bags, I think it came out to $0.20 per bag (thought bags cost more but we bought bulk boxes).
It takes me 1-2 minutes to bag'em and pull'em down- then 6 seconds to seal a bag. I usually toss a small desicant pack in mine.
They do not pull an absolute vacuum, I just pull everything down to what I consider enough and seal the bag.

I still have some that were sealed 10+ years ago still holding tight, but not as hard as at first. Still the desicant packs show zero dampness.
I always pulled a few smaller packs for hunting, and tossed packs of my handgun and rifle ammo in my backpack and 4wheeler box. I never had one come apart and my ammo was always fresh when I got to it. Much of this ammo rode around in the pack for months as it was put through a lot of rough handling. To me, I proved it's worth.

Why others are so down on it does not matter a bit to me. All I care is that it works, is my time, my money. Hell I waste $20k or more a year pissing it away on toys, another dollar and few minutes has never hurt me. Besides, I seem to love to do things that really piss people off (if they are close minded - or ignorant).

Does it hurt anything? Hasn't for me. But, it offers less protection than an ammo can, but damned if I'm going to toss an ammo can in my backpack. I already had the vac sealer and bags, really cost me almost nothing but a few minutes of time. I did bag up several bags of handloads a couple months back, all that ammo will be fine whenever I get around to open it. Am sure others do stuff I think is stupid (like always  posting negative replies to everything asked).

Edit to add--> I do not bag milsurp ammo, nor bulk ammo- that all goes in cans (with desicant). I live on the coast with salty, humid air all around. I usually only bag up my handloaded hunting ammo, since it is rarely carried around in cans. It has it's place (to me). You'll have to weigh if it is worth the minimal cost and time for your needs.

That all said, it's your time, your money- ultimately, do you really care if others approve? I know I don't. We aren't talking big money, just pocket change. And I still have cans.

what it "works"



does it make it last longer than having it in a ammo can?



 

Reading comprehension is a big plus. See above post (or for you, I'll requote)-

Does it hurt anything? Hasn't for me. But, it offers less protection than an ammo can, but damned if I'm going to toss an ammo can in my backpack.

Not all my ammo stays in cans, some goes out in the deserts, mountains, woods- wherever I hunt that year. I hunted a lot right on the Mexican border for 3 years, I kept an emergency "stash" of ammo in my backpack- that ammo is stored in vacuum packed bags. It hurts nothing. I have 40+ ammo cans stuffed with ammo, the seals appear fine. One more layer of protection hurts what? I have ammo I loaded in the 60s-70s that have been in cans, I know most of the cans hold up well, am not disputing that, and I stated cans offer the most protection. Sorry that you consider everyone else stupid, I do not try to conform to your standards.

Your application is apparently considerably different from what the OP seems to be talking about.  For LONG TERM storage, ammo cans beat all other options.  Your application isn't long term storage, it's more like "bug out prep," and for that, vacuum sealing is a good approach - for the amount of ammunition you plan on packing in your backpack, anyway.

I used my example as one reason I find it is not a waste of time, nor cost- which both are low.
The ops question I saw others answer as a waste of time/money was  "Is there any reason to NOT USE one of the commercial food vacuum sealers to seal up the ammo before putting it in the cans?"

He received several responses saying it is a waste (or stupid). I still say it is not a waste of time nor money (to me), but the can is still the most important part of the equation. A lot of the ammo I bagged before Y2K is still perfect, and I can take out a bag whenever I want, need- without any of what is left in the can being exposed to humidity. I usually bagged anywhere from 75-200 rounds per bag, and it is another way to keep the lots together, yet segregated.

My response was harsh, seems some folks think anything they don't do is wrong for everyone else. If someone wants to do something, I try to see positives. Why do some always seem to answer in condescending methods? If someone wants to burn money, it's their business- that is a waste. A few minutes and the small change cost to do this really is not wasted, it is one more level of protection in case the can seal allows leakage (some do not seal 100%). How does one know the can seals 100% without doing a leak test?

This place allows folks to ask questions without being belittled, or at least it should. You answer the questions with data and opinion, nothing wrong with that. Even when you disagree, you do so professionally,

I tend to agree to disagree with some quite often. Does not mean both sides are wrong.  

It would be easier, cheaper and more effective to just make certain that the seals in the ammo cans are good.  Buy new cans and inspect the seals before use.  If you want to do more, test the seals also.

Dessicant can't hurt as long as the seals are good.  I use one of these in each can.  The moisture indicator lets you know if there is a problem.  They can be recharged.

I really do not understand the part you said (in red). How would it be cheaper?  What cost's so much in using bags inside the cans?

I have always been very picky on my ammo cans, have bought several pallets of near new cans directly off bases, and hand picked cans from these. Seals look fine on all the cans I keep.

Do you actually do leak checks and look for bubbles? Have you ever opened an ammo can that has been in storage for years to find rusty insides and tarnished ammo, I have twice. I was still able to use this ammo. I also saw pallets of ruined Chilean ammo that had been stored (poorly) but in new cans- that ammo was trashed.
I have used mostly indicating desicant in mine for many years, have had no problems since. Luckily, the 6000 rounds I had stored (in the 90's) was in bags, inside the cans (not vacuum sealed bags, just tie wrapped). Still was a terrible feeling finding my cans had rusted on the inside, while looking new on the outside.

So, can you explain how it would be cheaper and more effective to just use cans? How do you check your seals, visually? How do you do a 100% leak check? I don't need to. That's what failed on mine. I have never used Vaseline on the seals, I just bag some.. It's not as expensive as some make it out to be. Your seals could well be leaking and unless checked pretty regularly (which defeats the seal also) the desicant can soak up leakage and become more of a detriment than help.

Personally, I have no worries how you store yours. Many cans are not as leak proof as you think, ask the people who found this out after hurricanes- I live right on the Texas coast. My ammo that is sealed in bags, inside of my cans will be dry, and the cost is not much. Do store yours how you like, and I will store mine

What you want to do is put some VCI chips or pieces of VCI plastic in the cans. Check out some of the sites that sell them. I've used Zerust before, many types of VCI items, good prices. I'm not affiliated with them(disclaimer).

For me, long term storage means a stash I don't touch, not cans I tap for some rounds now and then.  My "long term" stuff stays closed from the time I packed it up.  When I open it, it's no longer in "long term storage."

I will point out that I don't put desiccant in my ammo cans, even though it can get quite humid here.  I open the cans almost exclusively INDOORS, where my humidity is controlled.  Quality brass isn't all that sensitive to "normal" atmospheric humidity, and while I don't think using desiccant is a problem, I don't bother with it.  

Vacuum sealing ammunition is also not detrimental, but typical food-quality bags are not tough enough to handle pointy bullets, sharp stripper clips, and other features of ammunition that can interact with the bag.  The level of vacuum from a FoodSaver is also hot particularly high, or it would squish your steak instead of just pulling the air out of the bag around the steak.  It DOES remove most of the moisture out of the bag, which is probably the point, but too many people think this level of vacuum is the same as industrial vacuum sealing, which it ain't.

GI ammunition lasts for decades in plain old ammo cans without a vacuum pulled on them, without special atmospheres, and with cardboard in the box (gasp!!!).  GI 9mm ammunition is packed in standard 50-cal sized cans with plain old corrugated cardboard sheets as spacers to keep the boxes from shifting around, despite the fact that "everyone knows" that cardboard rots brass because it holds moisture...  Not if you use dry cardboard and pack the can in a controlled environment.

If you are certain that your cans are sealed, there is no point in vacuum sealing the ammo in bags.  So, you save the expense of the sealing machine and sealing bags.  You also save your time, which is worth money to most people.

The only way that ammo can be damaged by water is if the seal is bad, the seal is not aligned properly with the can, the can has a hole in it, or you allow water to enter the can before closing the lid.  I make sure that none of these conditions exist.

I have never had any problem with any ammo stored in an ammo can.  I have purchased used cans that had seals that appeared good but failed the test that I do on questionable cans.  I throw them away.

My test is to fill the ammo can 10 - 20% with boiling water, close the lid and give it a good shake.  I listen for leaks and then turn the can upside down and look for leaks around the seal.  The hot water heats the air in the can and significantly increases the internal air pressure so leaks are easily observed.  If the can passes the test, I towel dry the can and lid.  I then let the lid air dry in a clean, low humidity environment for about a week to make sure that all the water drains or evaporates from the cavities inside the lid.  Lately, I just buy new cans, visually inspect, and avoid the leak test.  For extra long storage, I lightly lubricate the seal with Dow Corning Silicone Valve Lubricant & Sealant, which is less likely to react with the seal material or the ammo than a petroleum product.

To add value, the bag materials would have to be barrier film. That typically includes trade names like Aclar unless it carries a specification number that means it is barrier film.

Vacuum per se isn't the thing you want if the contents need to stay dry, but there is such a thing as a dry nitrogen purge that we use for things that must stay dry. (Small Arms Ammo isn't one of the things we worry about being that dry...)

You can use an ammo can with a good seal and be just fine for long term ammo storage on the order of many decades. If the cans will be poorly stored where temperatures will cycle above and below dew point in the cans, then the only good choice is a nitrogen purge and a hermetic seal.

The posters who test the seals on used cans and use seal grease are on the right track. Small Arms Ammo has been stored like this for more than 40 years in many instances and has survived poor storage conditions just fine. Too many examples of piles of materials from 1945 to 1950 being opened up when we went through the Balkans and it was all just like new.

If you are really paranoid and need to bag things, the bag material just needs to be a water barrier film material or I would agree it is only helping to keep things organized and clean, but they won't stay dry in terms of many years storage.

Privi packs there ammo in 200 round plastic bags I took those and then stored those bags in ammo cans. While the privi is not vac u sealed its the same concept. So why not vac u seal. Won't hurt.

"Privi packs there ammo in 200 round plastic bags I took those and then stored those bags in ammo cans. While the privi is not vac u sealed its the same concept. So why not vac u seal. Won't hurt."


Because pulling a vacuum on a poly bag just causes the humidity to diffuse into the bag faster and doesn't get rid of it either = does hurt.

Using a barrier film bag means water doesn't get through any time soon.
Using a barrier bag and a dry gas purge means the dew point of the storage conditions also no longer matter.
The vacuum isn't what adds value here if water in the package is the OP's concern.
The bags you see in those photos just keep the ammo organized and clean, not dry.

Getting the dew point in the bag way down, and then making sure there is a hermetic seal on a barrier film bag is what makes the concept work, not the vacuum.

Vacuum is used on wet foods to reduce the amount of saturated air in the container, thus limiting the O2 available for oxidation.
If you really want to prevent ammo from getting wet in storage, you have to get rid of the water inside the packaging. A good N2 purge will do that but a crummy vacuum won't.

Many of us use a very special 78% nitrogen purge. I guess my bags are barrier bags, they work well and do not allow moisture to penetrate.
I have never pulled a complete vacuum, nor do I even try. I do take mine down to less than atmospheric pressure then it goes in cans till needed.
Many people will find fault with everything others do, it does not matter what it is. If you like it, and prove it, many are going to condemn that choice. I see this every day, whether it is Colt, Noveske, KAC, Geisselle, or whatever, even chili/beans .
Negativity drives many people, read replies on this site and say I'm wrong- name one example everyone see's alike, people try hard to see negatives.

When I pull my bags down, I allow the machine to evacuate much of the atmosphere that was in with my ammo, then I seal it.
I was given another vac machine and hundreds of regular bags, they were all total crap- that must be what people are talking about when so negative, and talk about time wasted.
The bags I use must be some of these high dollar barrier bags, I don't remember (they didn't cost that much). I told the company (when I bought all the machines), I wanted good, heavy bags that would hold up for years. I did not really even care about cost, nor do I consider cost (when I have a goal in mind). But since I was spending quite a large sum, they sent thousands of bags. I sold many of these to coworkers (who all were impressed also). We all found these were not your basic cheap vac sealers, and bags were sturdy- great to work with. When people say their time is too valuable, I laugh. You must not be doing things right, my time is worth a lot- but so are my goals (and my ammo).

That all said, I still have 99%  most of my ammo in fat 50 cans, all with visual checks of the cans/seals. I am not going to do leak checks, I have read just about everything you guys have, a lot of what is written is bullshit and passed on by many. I do put most of mine in cans, but only pull down and seal some of my more valuable handloads. I do not baby my ammo, nor is my goal any different than yours. But to get advice from people who do not know coastal humidity is funny. And all my ammo is an investment, so I want it to last. Yep, ammo in cans is a great idea. Cans alone are not foolproof, again, I am not doing individual leak tests (nor need to). I rely on the cans to work, but I do put desiccant in.

I bought tens of thousands of rounds (mostly 7.62, 5.56, 45acp) from a gun show seller (back in 80's/90's) he always sold it bulk in 50 cal. cans. At one point , I bought 6k LC 5.56 from him, all in cans, but all bagged. I put this in long term storage, but like the OPs question, this was stored in my barn (about 1 mile inland from salt water). While building this house, I moved much of my stuff to a boat barn storage facility, a metal building. A few years later I decided to rotate some of my ammo, and decided to use the LC. I pulled a can, shiite, the can looked great externally, but rusty as crap inside. I then opened the remaining cans, another one was similar (seals appeared fine), moisture had got in the can, not in the ammo. The bags had saved the ammo from extensive damage, but was tarnished- still shot ok. I am not sure, but we had a couple hurricanes that year, the building may have flooded. I had plenty of excess work every time we have tropical storms or hurricanes, what was in storage was not even thought about for quite a while.

So, again. Thanks for you guys opinions, but I will ignore all much of it. I'll continue using my 78% N2 purge, desiccant, and my bags. It has proven to work (I know that must chap your ass), but it proves itself (to me) every time I grab a can. Would it be fine without being bagged? Maybe/maybe not. I may go bag up more ammo today, even if that pisses you off more. I don't care It is my time, my money, and my ammo. Go stick your head in the sand, I'll keep doing what works for me. I'll not take anything with me when I die, but I hope my ammo is safe and able to be used by the grandkids. It is one more layer of protection THAT I CHOOSE to use. All I care about is my choices, not yours. Theories sound good, proof is in the experience. Your advice is trumped by my experience, I see this daily.

Edit for typing mistakes and to say once again, you guys are more than welcome to ignore my experience since I damned sure ignore much of your advice (I will look into the VCI chips/paper more tho), several pistols are wrapped in it out there.

Link to a DewPoint map - -Dew Point Map of US I'm in a humid area (Galveston county), not the best for ammo storage. What type humidity do you fight?

Your welcome.

However, since you didn't ask for any opinions, not sure why you are angry.

The OP asked specifically if there was any reason NOT TO vacuum seal his ammo.
The only responses regarding not doing it is simply that it is not needed and/or a waste of time.

I lived in Corpus Christi most of my life and never vacuumed packed any ammo.
I have stored ammo for years in their original cardboard boxes , in a metal cabinet, in a non-climate controlled garage and never had any issues.

That is simply my experience and why I don't see the need to vacuum pack ammo.
YMMV - and apparently it has.

I don't think anyone cares whether people choose to vacuum pack ammo or not,
and no one has said it hurts anything to do it.

but the OP asked, and people were simply giving him their opinions, based on their experiences.

I have packed ammo in ammo cans with and without desiccant,
several years later, the ammo looks the same packed either way.
I have concluded that desiccant is not needed, either.

again,
YMMV.

Yeah, I had that coming. I APOLOGIZE FOR BRING AN ASS.

A quote from my first reply:
Is it needed? No, can't say it is needed for most people.
Does it hurt anything? Has never hurt any ammo that I sealed.
Is it a waste of time and money? Not to me, but I put all  most of my ammo in cans anyway.

I rarely post anything due to conflicts, or perceived conflicts of opinion. In my case, I think it may be the opposite of others, due to conditions we each face.
If I thought the conditions were the same for someone in California, I'd say, yes it is needed. I have seen lots of California, nothing there like our hurricanes nor humidity.
I have been to Maryland,  have felt their humidity, it can be pretty brutal.
And, lots of ammo was ruined in the Jersey hurricane from what I was told. Sh!t happens. I have also seen lots of wasted ammo when the Chilean 7.62x51 stuff arrived ruined (in cans).

My work here is done, we have freedom to choose. I still say bagging ammo is cheap insurance, vacuum sealing it offers little, but has not hurt my time, billfold, nor ammo.
I hate throwing stuff out, had to trash about 10# of powder this year, my storage conditions are not great. My ammo still looks pristine.

My bad

My worry about vacuum sealing is this: my vacuum sealer will pull a hard enough vacuum to boil water at room temp. I know it will because I've done it out of curiosity. It is a professional unit that I bought for sou vide cooking.

Since the ammo is manufactured at (or near) sea level air pressures I would be worried that a hard enough vacuum could cause a bullet to unseat from the case. If it is enough to change the OAL of just a small % of the cartridges, that would be a problem, I would think. And if you aren't going to really vacuum seal them, then why bother? Just use ammo cans and desiccants.

Or what about the dry-ice method I have heard about? Fill your storage container, then put a chunk of dry ice into the container and loosely lower the lid. As the dry ice sublimates the cold CO2, being denser than air, will displace the atmospheric gasses from the container. Once the dry ice is gone, you seal the container up and Bob's your uncle. It should now, theoretically, be filled with dry inert gas. Of course I've never gone through the trouble myself. I just keep all my ammo in boxes on the floor, the better to stub my toes with.

A full vacuum pulled on a 223 will generate less than 1 pound of force on the projectile because all that is available in terms of pressure is 14.7 psi. Really trivial forces unless there is some leverage or other problem. So, vacuum forces won't harm your 223 round.

The bag sealers for parts (not food) use vacuum to pull off the bulk (billowing or inflation) caused by the purge gas. It is the super low dew point and inert chemistry of the purge gas that did the trick, not the vacuum per se.
Nothing wrong with vacuum, and nothing wrong with letting the bags balloon up either. Just depends on the rest of the packaging requirements.

To avoid things like hurricane flood damage, or loss of power in blizzards, etc., the Belts & Suspenders would be to carefully portion the ammo into small batches and seal into purged barrier film bags, then protect with ammo cans which are also gas purged.

The vacuum doesn't hurt anything if the saturated air is removed and replaced with gas that has a dew point well below any temperature you can expect, and as long as the bags are barrier film. Breaking into smaller batches is insurance if there is violence or much transport vibration that might cut or wear through the cans, seals, or some of the bags. Some may get compromised but with luck not all of it.

This was how we protected humidity (corrosion) sensitive weapon system components that had to travel between the poles, deserts, and swamps of the world, not just the ammo.

I hope nothing I have said or added here is taken to be a criticism of anything anyone else likes or has said. My intent is to point out two important concepts, low dew point and oxygen in the package, and barrier film bagging to keep it that way because polyethylene and nylon bags do nothing to keep out water in the long term. Nothing more, nothing less. You folks are all the best in my book and I certainly don't want anyone feeling slighted in any way.

http://memecrunch.com/meme/4RE1/i-see-i-ve-been-schooled/image.jpg

And this is why I like this forum. Thanks for the perspective.

The funny thing is your explanation has nothing to due to the OPs question (hence my question). That reading comprehension thing, might want to get that checked out.



I was trying to find out what you meant, in which case has nothing to do with the OP, as I assumed.

This was the OPs question and conditions-

GI Ammo cans will be used with seals but wondering about a little " extra protection " because cans may be stored in non-climate controlled areas all year long.

Is there any reason to NOT USE one of the commercial food vacuum sealers to seal up the ammo before putting it in the cans?


Hey Taylor,
Maybe I took you and your way of responding wrong.
I'll send you an IM, will try not to sidetrack the OPs thread any more than I already have.
Maybe I am not understanding you correctly I may need to work on my reading comprehension.

I still disagree with your answer as being right for all needs, but that's ok. Remember, the OP qualified his question with the first statement- this is where I had cans fail.

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Re-edit to add-- Twice I have typed out an apology to you all, then deleted those before posting. I was taught better than what my actions showed, was taught to treat everyone with respect- but I fail sometimes, there is
that proof. I actually have respect for Taylor, even tho often I am on the other side of opinions from his- that is no problem. I don't agree with some methods used by some expressing their opinion. That too, is fine.
If asked a question, I do not agree that your actions are stupid just because I do things different from you. Some things may be a waste of money (I'm guilty of this), or a waste of time (I'm guilty of
wasting time sometimes).But, I do take offense if being called stupid, as the saying "stupid is as stupid does", (I think was coined by Forest Gump). If my actions cause no losses, it's just a choice,  a decision I made.

Whether anyone decides to bag their ammo or not, is just a choice to make,  I fully agree it is not needed most of the time- still why should it be considered stupid?  Each of our experiences should be learned and not repeated when
bad things happen. When one does any action and gets a result (whether positive or negative) something should be learned. Most people in this country have better storage conditions (weatherwise) than coastal areas of the
east and gulf, making it hard for a one-size fits all answer for anything (in outside long-term storage). I exceeded terrible conditions for a period of time, storing my ammo in a rented boat storage building. That is when my
trusted cans leaked, but that ammo was bagged inside of cans. 2 cans on bottom leaked. Storing it there was stupid maybe, but I didn't know. Now, still, not all my bulk ammo is bagged, it is
canned, most is not on the ground. Sh!t happens. I owe you guys and Taylor an apology for being a jerk. I try not to post often but I will try to remember lessons I learn. I truly believe we all make mistakes- at times.