And for those of you who have never had the "pleasure" of serving in a unit that has "lost" a sensitive item like........ say...... a carrying handle for an M-4, let alone a laser or pair of NVD's, let me tell you, the military will stop heaven and earth, lock down what ever geographic area that the item used to be or may be, and then they go through EVERY THING with a fine tooth comb until they find it.  

I once stayed in the back 40 of Ft Campbell for an extra week along with the entire 3rd BDE of the 101st because some dip-shit thought it would be cool to try to grab a pair of PVS-7's off a guy's assault pack and cache' them in the wood-line.  Lets just say that when CID probes your anal cavity, they find the shit they are looking for eventually.  

I would be willing to bet that almost 80%+ combat arms types have had a very similar experience, so to say that someone is stealing these things is just ignorant of the actuality of the situation.

Oh man, your bringing back horrible memories.......especially about the back 40 of Campbell (where I'm at now).....we had a guy STEAL an M4 and put it in the trunk of his car.......we were on lockdown for 4 days, before CID interviewed him, and he cracked under pressure.

Yeah, I remember those days all too well.  Hell, we had about a 6 hour lock down one time looking for a damn CARRYING HANDLE.  That was back when the M-4 first came out, around 98' or so.  People have NO idea just how crazy it gets, and really, there are good reasons for those actions.  I really don't think that a half dozen SAW's out MIA is in the best interest of general society, and commanders have the responsibility to safeguard the property of the US, and they will NOT allow the COC inventory to be short a serial numbered item.  

However, that being said, there is NO reason that a person, of military age, sound of mind and body, with minimal to no criminal record should be denied the RIGHT to purchase whatever ARMS that any common MILITIA member is issued, to include the means to accurately and competently fire them 24 hours a day.  We all agree and understand that hi powered lasers are dangerous to the eyesight of animals to include humans, however, the laser is a means to deliver a projectile at a very rapid velocity to said eye........ Now, if coyotes or crooks are robbing you at night, you have the right to defend yourself, 24 hours per day.  Who gives 2 shits if they were blind when that 77grain hollow point slammed into their eye socket at 2700 fps??  Really, give me a break!

not only that, but people arent going to shell out 2k+ for a fancy laser just to go around blinding people.

Lol so 99.9% of military lasers on the market are stolen? You don't say......

Isn't that  like saying 99.9% of military weapons on the market are stolen? It looks to me like you're being deliberately disingenuous.

If there are so many stolen IR lasers out there, why not post a PDF or some other document listing all the serial numbers listed as stolen or inexplicably missing and presumed stolen.  Then when surfing ebay or gunbroker or wherever, we could reference that list and avoid stolen units.  This seems like it would be considerably more logistically sensible than emailing a serial number and hoping that the reply is not somehow affected by whether or not whoever checks out the serial number is of the opinion that civilians have no business owning them.  A list of that sort would solve A LOT of problems, and would be incredibly simple.  Open the document, hit "control F," type the serial number in question and if it pops up then put as much distance between yourself and the seller as possible.  Problem solved!

+100

A website that extracts data from the property database would be good too. type in the SN and NSN/model  and it will tell you if it's registered as military property. Granted, that can't be 100%, as there are items that don't exist on property books for one reason or another, but it'd be a start.

There is such a list, it's called FEDLOG and it has EVERY serialized item of government property in it, and just exactly who is supposed to have it.  It would take someone at the appropriate level of administration to find ANY PEQ, PAQ, PVS, M-XX item about 5 minutes to tell you it's exact disposition.  That, combined with the inevitable database that companies like Insight keep of SN items they have sold......... there is no way that the above listed item is stolen, that DSI agent is just spouting off at the mouth.

Hey, I contacted L-3 Insight and provided this serial number, 999527. They could not identify the purchaser of this unit and did not tell me why. As far as I'm concerned, it was not stolen from the U.S. Government. I apologize for the slow response. I don't think running serial numbers is a priority for L-3 as they need to run a business. I've asked for lists of all serial numbers from many manufacturers and they would rather be send them each request individually. I'd rather have it a different way but that's just the way it is. From all the service members we've interviewed they are saying that the IR lasers they have been brining back from overseas deployments are not officially issued and thus not on the books. One soldier said that they were cleaning out a Connex container full of them from the outgoing unit and believed that everything in the container was free for the taking. Another pair of soldiers (wife and husband) said that their NCO had thrown a bag of goodies at the soldiers and everyone was free to take what they wanted. Several service members have stated that they received their B.E. Meyers GLARE MOUTS in roadside kits that were never inventoried.

There seems to be a lack of common sense. If the Government pays a lot of money for something, it cannot be diverted for an individual's personal use. Soldier after soldier has expressed surprise when we bring this up. Some even give the excuse that they didn't know it was U.S military property even though the items they took came out of a connex container used by U.S. troops. The problem is so large that my unit is planning briefing military commands to get the point across that this stuff isn't for the taking. In the Middle East a connex container of 20,000 glocks was found empty. A entire shipment of night vision goggles that the Army was giving to Honduras disappeared and later turned up in Alaska, far from its original destination. Those that can't believe soldiers are stealing military property need to wake up.

***EDIT***
10/12/2011 - I spoke with L-3 Insight today and inquired about the PEQ-15 on gunbroker S/N 999527 (the last communication was over e-mail). I asked specifically why they couldn't give me the purchaser of that unit. I was told that when a customer makes a very large purchase the batch of serial numbers goes through a separate process and sometimes doesn't get entered into their electronic database. Not being in the electronic database it would have required them to do digging manually through paperwork so they told me they couldn't get that information. So that solves the mystery of S/N 999527.

 

K, sorry if my last post may have been a little krass, it wasn't really well thought out.  

As for the original argument of ALL peq type lasers being stolen, well, here is one example of how many on various on-line auctions?  The point is, they ARE legal to own, legal to operate (with common sense laser protection measures), and legal to sell (as long as you are not a manufacturer).  The FDA can pound sand as far as their regulations are concerned because they only regulate the manufacturers.  But, then again, I think most of us here already figured that one out.  

Now, how do we get around the FDA measures to keep Insight from selling them?  I still think Canada is the answer.

Well thats my point. There should be a "window" into FEDLOG that allows anyone to run a SN to see it's disposition. Whether it's IR lasers, weapon sights, weapon lights, radios, night vision, etc...

A list of missing or stolen items would be severely incomplete due to human error, oversight, or dishonesty.

You could always upgrade the power yourself, if the companies left the internals exposed. Problem is, most of these companies pot their circuits.

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the burden of proof lie with the government?  Since there is obvious doubt as to the disposition of one of these things, then there is a doubt as to the legal standing of all of them.  So, should an item not be able to be traced to the government, and there is a possibility to obtain one legally, how could one be confiscated by mere possession?  

Let's just say a person picked up a PEQ-2a at a gun-show with no serial number......... how could anyone PROVE that it was stolen gov property?  There is no law that I am aware of preventing a dremal tool from removing marks from a piece of plastic.........

I was thinking the same thing earlier, just forgot to include it in my post, good call!  At least that is how it should be...

im playing devils advocate here, because i agree with you, but isnt there serial number also inside the case, and it could be confiscated because of "reasonable suspicion", and then they crack open the case to see the SN? either way its fucked since they probably broke it trying to get it open.

If it is like other high end items, I would imagine that the serial number would indeed be a various internal locations also.  But yeah, by that point the thing is likely destroyed, won't be fixed by its company of origin, and likely you will get a "thanks for your time, and thanks for paying taxes," but no compensation.

yeppers.

I don't know, does insight put SN's on the inside of their products?  It would make sense, but, if they don't..........  Besides, who's to say that what ever a police officer sees is actually an insight item and not some airsoft copy?

But really, all of this is a moot point, my main concern was the legality of the SN item on GB cause I am considering spending the 3k on a questionable item.  Since a competent law enforcement authority says it isn't stolen gov property, I am thinking about busting some hard earned treasure on it....

It would appear that someone on the EE has already been hit by this situation.  Check out the Lights and Laser section of the EE, I hope for the seller's sake that everything works out ok

i dont see anything?

ah, i see it now. im interested in what the post was. you cannot see any serial #s in the photo. odd since there are other peqs in that section of the EE.

It's a locked thread about 8 lines down in lights & lasers section of EE.

Elray's post.

eta.....you can see a SN....or really, where there used to be an SN.  Dude is good to go, I don't think he did it.

Back to 18BE3V's posts.....so he just happened to find that 00.01% PEQ15 for sale?  I thought they were all stolen?

did you see what was posted before it got locked down?

I didn't.  But look at the 2nd picture, right below the elevation knob, on the bottom of the PEQ.  See something amiss?

eta - you can still see the "A" from the last part of the SN

Can't tell if he actually got busted or if the fed guy ad stomped him by saying something like "99.9% chance that's illegal."

but what he can he be busted for? having a grinded out serial #? that still proves nothing since unlike a firearm its not illegal to remove a serial # from a laser, just like its not illegal for someone to take a serial number from a surefire 961.

also, i cant tell if the serial has been purposely blurred out or if it was removed. the serial number is stamped into the plastic, youd have to grind pretty good to remove it and i would think it would look pretty noticeable.

lol, that is noticeable

yeah, now that i put my glasses on i guess it does kinda look like a dremel drum was taken to it.

i had to stare at the 2nd pic for about 10 minutes before i saw what you were talking about.

gotta admit, that is pretty hinky.

i agree.  he's a good dude though, I doubt he did it.  I can't speak for that PEQ, but I wouldn't buy it.

The fact remains, there definitely are legal ones out there.  B18 proved that with the -15 he showed us all earlier.

Well, while I will likely be investing some duckets on an IR laser in the future, all our friendly special agent said was that he couldn't prove that it was stolen gov property.  That don't mean it's so.........  I still think there HAS to be a way to get one out of Insight legally, like buy one in Canada and have someone ship it here??  There are EXPORT regulations, but import........ well, that would be a little different....... especially since it was manufactured here?  I don't know really.  Besides, how many people does anyone know who has been sent to the "grey bar motel" for buying one of these things?  F*** the "MAN"!  LOL

hey guys....thanks for some of you attesting to my character

first,this unit came from another respected and trusted member here.

second,no sn# was present on the outside case,and no sn# was removed by me.
honestly,i didnt even notice there was no sn# till it was brought to my attention.

third,i have a flawless feedback record here,and value my relationship with the ee community,
and would never sell anything i believed to be stolen,or misrepresent an item to my favor.

there were quite a few of these units that were brought to market about a year ago.
i do not believe 99.9% of these ir units(peq-2a) are stolen.

I hope no one thinks that Elray here is a thief. He purchased the item from someone else so obviously he didn't steal it in the first place. One point that I'd like to touch upon is that just because you bought a laser from a reputable user doesn't mean that the device isn't stolen. The good intentioned and honest forum member could easily be deceived by the original seller. I've seen this time and time again where a seller will advertise a laser with a declaration that "it was purchased legally" and the buyer of the unit will later list it for sale himself stating the same thing as if it was fact. In reality, the buyer did not verify if the unit was legally purchased or not. For the sake of assisting people in verifying this, here's the biggest clue: legitimate sales will always be accompanied by documentation. If someone claims to have gotten it from DRMO (DRMO doesn't release these, but say they made a mistake) then they will have a receipt along with an end-use statement stating that the can't export the article. If a person claims it was from a Law Enforcement agency (again, only if the agency royally screws up) then there will be paperwork showing the sale of the items to the PD. Furthermore, all legitimate sales should have intact serial numbers. For something this expensive and this controversial it is your responsibility to get the paperwork when purchasing a laser otherwise you have no one to blame but yourself when law enforcement seizes it. If someone claims that they misplaced the paperwork then they are most likely lying to your face.  

I am still searching for the mythical non-stolen lasers. If you own one please speak up in this forum. Fear not, I won't take your lasers. I merely want to get an idea of how many there are so that I can adjust my figures accordingly. Right now I'm stating that 99.9% of lasers on the market are stolen. Your assistance will help adjust that figure and provide credibility as so many people do not believe in the number. To qualify as having a non-stolen laser you must show me the documentation from DRMO or a LE agency that I mentioned above.

Thank you!

MESSAGE REMOVED

That's a neat idea. :) I don't know if the Canadians have the same IR laser restrictions but I assume so. Importing the laser into the U.S. would require the correct import permit. If the seller mismanifests the device and/or devalues it to slip under the radar then that is commiting Customs fraud. No import permit would be granted for a non-Governmental agency so I don't think it would legally be possible to import a laser.  

 

Jack Bauer is walking down the street when he notices a a man hauling a live stinger missile strapped to his bicycle. Jack stops the man and tells him that he has stolen Government property and needs to return it.

Jack: Stop, CTU! That is stolen Government property, you can't have that.
Suspect: What? How could this be the case? I can't believe this is stolen! How do you know its stolen?
Jack: Are you a representative of a military agency?
Suspect: No.
Jack: well, those stinger missiles are only sold to the military. They cannot be sold at Government auctions and must be destroyed if decommissioned. You are not with the Government so there's no way you could have obtained that legitimately.
Suspect: But, hypothetically, what if someone in the military made a mistake and accidentely released one of these into the public? Or maybe someone stole a unit from the manufacturer? That wouldn't count as stolen Government property now would it?
Jack: Er, I suppose hypothetically, if the planets were in alignment it could happen, because accidents do happen, but very, very unlikely for military surplus to do that. As for stealing it from the manufacturer, sure, it's not stolen GOVERNMENT property but still stolen property.
Suspect: Ah hah! So there is a chance!  
Jack: Wow, you're really grasping at straws.
Suspect: Don't you see? There's a chance this stinger missile wasn't stolen. You have to prove that its stolen before I turn it over to you. Look here, the serial number was dremeled off. You can't prove anything!
Jack: You serious? You're dealing in contraband, buddy because regulations prohibit the sale of such items to civilians. Do the cops have to prove that the pot they find on someone was legally purchased with a medical marijuana license before they seize it? No, the person in possession has to prove that they can legally possess it because the item is inherently contrabrand.
Suspect: Well, dope and stinger missiles are different. Dope has actual laws stating that possession or sale of is illegal. I don't know of any laws like that for missiles.
Jack: You're a clever bastard, aren't you? There's no law making possession illegal because missiles are a niche market and the manufacture and sale of such devices are so locked down that there's no way one of these could make it into the civilian market without breaking some sort of law anyways.
Suspect: But earlier you said there was a chance.
Jack: I was speaking hypothetically earlier and now I'm speaking realistically.
Suspect: But you said there's a chance...
Jack: *sigh* Fine. I can seize that missile because I have probable cause to believe it is stolen Government property. I don't have to prove it to seize it. I don't even need the serial number.
Suspect: I'm not tracking...
Jack: My God, are you serious?!? If the missile is only sold to the military, and you're not the military then obviously I can reasonably suspect that you aren't the rightful owner. Use logic, man!
Suspect: I don't believe in logic. I don't believe anything you say. My cousin Vinny told me something different. Why should I believe you?
Jack: *whips out gun and shoots himself in the head*

What about the one from gunbroker?

LOL



Side note:
I believe it is technically legal to possess a stinger missile as long as you pay the $200 DD tax stamp. Don't quote me on that.

I think you may be correct.  I know it's legal to own a 40mm HEDP, but once again, it's a 200$ tax stamp each.  How many DOD contractors ala' blackwater or triple canopy are allowed to buy these things, and then, subsequently sell them?  I am not saying that is where they are coming from, but my point is, I can poke about a dozen or so holes in your "99.9%" rule that you are clinging to because you want it to be so.  How in the hell did the first challenge to it comeback at best a maybe?  Really?  

Look, I am not trying to pick a fight, but I have very little time for people who don't know or understand the laws they are trying to enforce.  I am a simple man, and have a basic HS education.  I can read a document, written by lawyers, in a language that any person with a 5th grade education can read, understand, and apply.  It clearly states that my right to keep, and bear arms shall not be infringed.  Your "only enforcing the law" only goes so far.  At some point, you have to ask yourself if what you are enforcing is in fact right.  To say that somehow a person in mere possession of something you can't prove was stolen because you THINK it is, is you overstepping your authority under the 5th amendment.  Try getting a warrant first, I am sure you will make whatever argument you are currently making to a judge who knows jack shit about what you are talking about in the first place, and who will subsequently sign it.  I know more than one person with M-1911 pistols marked "Government Property" or something similar that were purchased through various programs and or gun dealers.  I also know that people own M-16A1's marked similarly, all legal on form 4's and everything.  How can you say that because "they only sell to the government", these things are government property?

Since you are making the argument that these lasers are arms, and I would be inclined to agree, then WHY THE HOLY HELL CAN I NOT BUY ONE?  Guns are instruments that KILL!  Lasers at best will blind!  I can buy fucking QUAD M2 HB machine guns and mount them on a damn half-track legally, but I can't aim my carbine at a coyote at night because the FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION says so?  That is like the Education Department regulating speed limits because they say the signs have to be read in English?  DUH!

Hey, I appreciate your response. Perhaps someone who works in military contracting procurement can chime in because I am no expert in that area. All I know is that of the several hundred IR lasers that we have seized thus far none of them were traced back to a Government contractor. That's all I can base my statements on. A contractor would still be bound by regulation to prevent the unauthorized sale of the devices to civilians so perhaps they are just better at keeping their stuff in order prevent it from happening because, unlike the Government, their finances are limited and they don't want to or can't afford to pay huge fines.

Obviously my probable cause reasoning for seizing the lasers would apply differently to other things like M4's and 1911's. Those devices aren't restricted like lasers. In fact, I can't think of any other industry as heavily restricted as lasers are. They really are in their own little world only in this world will the "its only sold to the Government and you're not in the Government" logic be valid. Obviously probable cause is more than just "thinking". You must be able to articulate it. 1) Lasers only sold to LE and Military 2) There is no mechanism for the devices to be sold to civilians legally; any sale to a civilian would have occurred through negligence or fraud. 3) Every device recovered was traced back to the DOD. It seems that the number of devices that weren't stolen from DOD is quite small. 4) devices often have the serial numbers removed, the removal of serial numbers is consistent with stolen property in general. Know that if you have PC, you can get a warrant. Trust me though, getting your house search by law enforcement is no fun. We go through everything and all your possessions, and thus secrets are revealed so I would not be so quick to ask us to go that route. No one enjoys them, cops or suspects.

As for the PEQ-15 on Gunbroker, I don't know why Insight couldn't give me the end user. Perhaps Insight never sold it because it was lost. Or maybe the records weren't properly maintained. Who knows. I can't rule out that it is NOT stolen property but there is enough doubt that it would not sit right with me to seize it. Speaking for myself, if I do seize a laser only to find that it wasn't Government owned (haven't yet, but maybe one day) there are other options which I cannot post publicly...:)

Anyways, you brought up some good points. Please keep the dialog going. I enjoy being able to interface directly with the public. I think a lot of Government needs to be more transparent (especially Congress).

EDIT: Since my original statement is a bit unclear, "there are other options which I cannot post publicly" referred to options for the return of the device to the buyer, not options to seize the laser as some had mistakenly assumed. Furthermore, Insight informed me why they told me they couldn't give me the purchaser of the PEQ-15 on GB. I updated my original post to reflect the new information.

MESSAGE REMOVED

MESSAGE REMOVED

The "law" that you're looking for is in the FDA regs. Basically, the exemption, or variance that allows these lasers to be sold is tied to the end user. When you read the label on B.E. Meyers lasers it says "This device is exempt from FDA regulation blah blah". That exemption is only valid for the authorized enduser. The manufacturers requiring the end users to sign a contract stating that they will properly dispose of the units and won't sell them is to remain in compliance with the FDA. It's more than a "dealership agreement" which implies that it is voluntary. It's not voluntary at all but mandatory. The FDA does have special agents that do have criminal arrest powers and do use them so I wouldn't dismiss them too lightly.

With body armor, I know that civilians can legally purchase those. You would truly need to get a serial number and trace it to the purchaser to be able to seize one of those. I don't know of law enforcement targeting those.

Forgive me if I read this statement incorrectly, but are you saying here that even if you discover that the laser was not a stolen item, you would explore other options in order to prevent it from getting back to the person from which it was seized?  I hope not, but if so, that is wrong, period.

Anyway, back to the FDA thing (the original purpose of this thread), what do you guys think of this section of CFR 21?
CFR 21 part 1010.5
If I am reading it right, wouldn't it seem that these units are exempted from FDA regulations (as long as the exception is current, which it would be) and therefore beyond the scope of the FDA?  At no place in there does it say that people outside of those for whom its use was intended cannot own one.  It says "solely or predominantly by a department or agency of the United States," keyword predominantly.  Again, though, I think this is pertaining to the manufacturer anyway, just thought it was interesting.  This is all provided that you can find a laser w/ documentation behind it.

If you know where we can find the regulation that specifically says this, PLEASE PLEASE post a link to it.  I'm not even saying that sarcastically, if I see a concrete statute and/or promulgated regulation that explicitly prohibits someone outside of the government or other "intended end-user" from owning one, I will give up using my free time to read regulations in the hopes that one day I can own one w/o fear of it being seized and just buy a Class 1 Dbal.  In the mean time, my POS red unimax will have to suffice, not dropping that kind of $$ on a Class 1 until I know its the ONLY OPTION.