User Panel
Excellent thread!!
Can anyone explain the odd stepped edge on some recent production bayo's? |
|
Job 7:1 "Militia est vita hominis super terram"... John 6:35; And Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
|
Originally Posted By EVR: Excellent thread!! Can anyone explain the odd stepped edge on some recent production bayo's? View Quote I have never been able to find a definitive answer for that feature. Joe Poyer, in his book The AK-47 and AK-74 Kalashnikov Rifles and Their Variations, speculates they might be blood grooves and that they were easier to machine than a fuller. Until I had read that, I had always thought they were added to lend lateral structural rigidity to the blade, in much the same way ridges are added to flat metal to prevent bending under stress, and that they were easy to machine by just flipping the blade on the mill. Soldiers tend to use bayonets for all sorts of things, including prying and I figured the Russians were addressing that. |
|
|
Originally Posted By CarlosC: I have never been able to find a definitive answer for that feature. Joe Poyer, in his book The AK-47 and AK-74 Kalashnikov Rifles and Their Variations, speculates they might be blood grooves and that they were easier to machine than a fuller. Until I had read that, I had always thought they were added to lend lateral structural rigidity to the blade, in much the same way ridges are added to flat metal to prevent bending under stress, and that they were easy to machine by just flipping the blade on the mill. Soldiers tend to use bayonets for all sorts of things, including prying and I figured the Russians were addressing that. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By CarlosC: Originally Posted By EVR: Excellent thread!! Can anyone explain the odd stepped edge on some recent production bayo's? I have never been able to find a definitive answer for that feature. Joe Poyer, in his book The AK-47 and AK-74 Kalashnikov Rifles and Their Variations, speculates they might be blood grooves and that they were easier to machine than a fuller. Until I had read that, I had always thought they were added to lend lateral structural rigidity to the blade, in much the same way ridges are added to flat metal to prevent bending under stress, and that they were easy to machine by just flipping the blade on the mill. Soldiers tend to use bayonets for all sorts of things, including prying and I figured the Russians were addressing that. I handforge knives, bolos, parangs, billhooks and other hand tools so stuff like this is always of interest. I have for many years used (left and right handed) chisel grinds for many of my bolos and parangs I do not agree with Poyer. The whole "blood groove" business is IMO nonsense. I think you are closer to the mark or maybe right on it. I've wondered if it was actually to discourage the bayonet being used as a knife for general cutting purposes as it certainly tends to do so. The British in designing the No 4 Lee-Enfield spike bayonet specifically chose to make a bayonet that could not be used as a general tool for camp chores. That is cited in some material I read years ago. I do not recall the specific reasoning tho. Maybe frequent breakage of their No 1 bayonets when abused for chores they were simply not up to performing? (Interestingly, later, they went whole hog on a general utility knife for their L85 as did we with our M16 bayonets. Learned a lesson?) The chisel grind itself could very well be design feature for simplification of production. They are also easier to sharpen as they need only be sharpened on one side and then just laid flat on the whetstone, file or rock to clear the feather edge on the other side. But that weird step in the end is quite unique and truly a mystery. Anyway, fantastic thread here. Thanks very much for putting it together!! |
|
Job 7:1 "Militia est vita hominis super terram"... John 6:35; And Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
|
Another excellent collection!!
You are right on the money on British (what to call it?) doctrinal chaos vis a vis bayonets. I have many books on this subject and a few nations {notably US and UK} are just all over the map about what a bayonet is supposed to be. Personally I always liked the US bolo bayonets a few of which got issued in the Philippines. At least somebody had the idea the thing might serve some sort of practical purpose cutting firewood and clearing brush!! The Finn's w/ their, as you aptly call it, "steaknife", "Puukko"-style bayo probably found the simplest and frankly, best approach. A decent field knife that will serve for practical chores which let's face it, is the most likely use that 99% of bayonets can ever hope to see. |
|
Job 7:1 "Militia est vita hominis super terram"... John 6:35; And Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
|
Carlos:
Thanks so much for taking the time to provide us with this excellent summary report on the AK bayonet. Please leave the memes in GD. dryflash3 |
|
|
Great presentation on the radical, ever-influential Kalashnikov bayonet. Found this thread externally through a search engine.
Maybe you can answer some questions. 1. What is the general blade material/composition/type of steel? -- sources differ as to whether the Type I, II AKM bayonets are carbon steel left "in the white", stainless steel, chrome plated carbon steel or plated with another material? 2. Can you rate them highest to lowest quality (in your opinion)? I would vote the East German at or near the top. 3. Out of all the AK/AK clone bayonets in your possession, how many of them have been sharpened to a knife edge? Many say, erroneously, that all bayonets ever devised were meant to be dull and only marginally sharp at the tip for thrust penetration. But with the introduction of the AK Type I, II knife bayonets it ostensibly means they intended it to be a combat, utility, jack of all trades knife bayonet. I'm not saying they pioneered the knife-tool-bayonet concept however, they just popularized it. All of the wire cutting AK bayonets seem to have a real attempt at a factory bevel and comes with either a factory created sharp edge or is left to the end user to grind and hone. Can they take an edge like a normal knife? Again, folks around the interwebz say they do not and do not make a halfway decent camping or survival knife. Only good for poking, they say. I only have one petty concern. With the fine documentation presented here I was sad to see cosmoline and grime on those blades. |
|
|
Global Warming Hoax Skeptic before it was cool
WA, USA
|
Originally Posted By Oppressor: Great presentation on the radical, ever-influential Kalashnikov bayonet. Found this thread externally through a search engine. Maybe you can answer some questions. 1. What is the general blade material/composition/type of steel? -- sources differ as to whether the Type I, II AKM bayonets are carbon steel left "in the white", stainless steel, chrome plated carbon steel or plated with another material? 2. Can you rate them highest to lowest quality (in your opinion)? I would vote the East German at or near the top. 3. Out of all the AK/AK clone bayonets in your possession, how many of them have been sharpened to a knife edge? Many say, erroneously, that all bayonets ever devised were meant to be dull and only marginally sharp at the tip for thrust penetration. But with the introduction of the AK Type I, II knife bayonets it ostensibly means they intended it to be a combat, utility, jack of all trades knife bayonet. I'm not saying they pioneered the knife/tool bayonet however. All of the wire cutting AK bayonets seem to have a real attempt at a factory bevel and comes with either a factory created sharp edge or is left to the end user to grind and hone. Can they take an edge like a normal knife? Again, folks around the interwebz say they do not and do not make a halfway decent camping or survival knife. Only good for poking, they say. I only have one petty concern. With the fine documentation presented here I was sad to see cosmoline and grime on those blades. View Quote Glad your search led you here. |
Selling agent for Algores carbon credit scam.
Shooting and Reloading, one hobby feeds the other. |
Originally Posted By dryflash3: Yes this is a high quality thread, and why I have the Archive toggle set. (keeping it out of the archives) Glad your search led you here. View Quote YES, you are doing good work here and I am well informed that you have "toggled" the thread for the benefit of all. Fine work, sir. |
|
|
Global Warming Hoax Skeptic before it was cool
WA, USA
|
Originally Posted By Oppressor: YES, you are doing good work here and I am well informed that you have "toggled" the thread for the benefit of all. Fine work, sir. View Quote As a mod, I see an icon next to a thread title on the main page of the forum. Team members and members don't see this icon, so no way for you to know unless you happen on my post in the thread where I state I toggled this thread. That's a nit pick I bring out to Goatboy every so often. |
Selling agent for Algores carbon credit scam.
Shooting and Reloading, one hobby feeds the other. |
Originally Posted By Oppressor: Great presentation on the radical, ever-influential Kalashnikov bayonet. Found this thread externally through a search engine. Maybe you can answer some questions. 1. What is the general blade material/composition/type of steel? -- sources differ as to whether the Type I, II AKM bayonets are carbon steel left "in the white", stainless steel, chrome plated carbon steel or plated with another material? AK47: H-84019 carbon steel. AKM Type 1 & Type 2: H-85023 tool steel. Not sure about the 6X5 or the odd samples. All the bayonets are left in the white except for the 6X5s, which are hard chrome plated. 2. Can you rate them highest to lowest quality (in your opinion)? I would vote the East German at or near the top. Hard to say because the Europeans (including the Russians) are all pretty much the same good quality, except the later Romania Type 1s, which feature crap handle material. The Chinese bayonets are pretty nice as well. The only ones that stand out as low quality are the Egyptian Type 1s with glue oozing all around the bayonets. Even that is not a given though as I have Egyptian AKM bayonets that are as nice as anything made in Europe. 3. Out of all the AK/AK clone bayonets in your possession, how many of them have been sharpened to a knife edge? None that I can tell Many say, erroneously, that all bayonets ever devised were meant to be dull and only marginally sharp at the tip for thrust penetration. But with the introduction of the AK Type I, II knife bayonets it ostensibly means they intended it to be a combat, utility, jack of all trades knife bayonet. I'm not saying they pioneered the knife-tool-bayonet concept however, they just popularized it. All of the wire cutting AK bayonets seem to have a real attempt at a factory bevel and comes with either a factory created sharp edge or is left to the end user to grind and hone. Can they take an edge like a normal knife? Again, folks around the interwebz say they do not and do not make a halfway decent camping or survival knife. Only good for poking, they say. I only have one petty concern. With the fine documentation presented here I was sad to see cosmoline and grime on those blades. View Quote My responses are in italics. Any cosmoline you see is because I have tried to leave the bayonets as untouched as possible. Any grime/grease is from actual use/storage long before I bought them. I clean them a little to prevent decay, but I don't make them shiny presentation pieces by any means. Oh, I have recently moved so my house is in chaos, but once it is sorted out, I'll update the original post since I've added a few more samples: one CZ Type 2, another Egyptian Type 2, a Lithuanian camo frog (still looking for another Lituanian bayonet to go with it), one more Romanian rare thin grip, and an updated hanger for my current Romy thin grip. |
|
|
And to EVR...I have added the final missing Tri-Tech M9 bayonet to the collection, so I have one from each manufacturer: Phrobis, Tri-Technologies, OKC (M9 and OKC-35), and LanCay, plus a Pedro Medrano (Lugang, Taiwan. Made by Qantas Products of Taipei) and a Schrade (bad ass knife).
To anyone else interested, I also have the following M1903/M1 bayonets: M1905 Springfield Armory (1915) and RIA (1908) with 16" blades. An Oneida Limited 1942 16" blade (1 of 150k) and a Mk1 training bayonet, also with a 16" blade. A RIA (1906 - first year made with no serial number!) shortened to 10" Bowie. UFH, UC, PAL, AFH, all 10" uncut originals. Two more UCs with 16" blades cut down to 10", one a spear point, one a Bowie point. Foreign M1 bayonets include: Italy, Greece, Norway, Denmark, Japan, and Holland. I like HK G3 bayonets as well and have: Danish 7-groove Type 3, Iranian 12-groove, Norwegian Model 1968, Pakistani made in 1969 (serial number 567), Swedish Model 1965 6-groove by Bahco, Swedish 7-groove made by Eichorn, Turkish made by MKE, West German 2nd version 12-groove full-notch cross piece, West German 2nd version 13-groove (only sample I've ever seen) half-notch cross piece, West German 3rd version 7-groove half-notch made by A. Eichorn prior to the German reunification. Others bayonets: CETME, South African FAL and UZI, Kar 98k cof43 (matching scabbard), E. Pack & Sohn dress bayonet (373mm long version), Lee-Enfield N04 Mk II, Lee-Enfield 1907 1915 Wilkinson, two M-N 91-30 bayos, Yugo M1948 bayo. Glock field knives (no saw teeth) 12161 black, 17278 olive drab, 17578 sand. Glock survival knives (with saw teeth) 17281 black, 17181 sand, 17378 olive drab, 39179 flat dark earth, 39180 grey, and 39180 battlefield green. Bundeswehr M1220. A few other knives and bayonets. |
|
|
Any further stickers you've got I'm sure folks like me will be happy to see them!
Thanks for a great thread. |
|
Job 7:1 "Militia est vita hominis super terram"... John 6:35; And Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
|
I would love to see those other bayonets you have, albeit in their respective forums perhaps, since they are not Kalashnikov bayonets.
Is there a specific 'general bayonets' subforum? I'm still a newb and ar15 is vast. Your presentation standards and quality photography are second to none, at least here on the site. |
|
|
FYI, I have acquired five new AK bayonets since my last update about a year ago and added new pics to my original post. These new additions include: a Czech Type 2, more typical Egyptian brown handle AKM Type 2, Lithuanian woodland camo theme AKM Type 2, Bulgarian-made but Polish issued 6x2, and another rare Romanian thin grip AKM Type 1.
If there are any pics any of you want that perhaps better illustrate differences among several similar items or provide more detail, let me know. ETA 7/1/24: I may soon be posting three new bayonets, depending on whether my source in Russia can deliver. They'll be another super-rare Russian AKM Type 2 reduced pommel and a Russian AKM Type 1 square back. |
|
|
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.