I can wear shorts, a tshirt and flip flops or a tux and not print
Dressing up or down has little to do with printing

 
Lol.


Except like not at all. I can carry more freely here than I could visiting Texas.

Short of government buildings, I can carry wherever the hell I want to.

The first few times I carried I worried about printing too, because I tend to wear clothes that aren't as baggy or long. If I looked down at my waist I could clearly see the grip of my 19, but looking straight into a mirror couldn't see anything at all. Once I got over that, its no big deal.

As someone mentioned above, IMO its more about attitude and carrying yourself when armed. The less attention you bring to yourself in general, the better. If someone is paranoid about carrying, it generally shows in their actions. I only feel weird now when Im NOT wearing a holster.

in Oklahoma, until the recent open carry passed the legislature - printing could be determined to be "brandishing" a firearm and criminal charges filed- which did occur on more than one occasion.

I'm waiting to see what Illinois ends up being.  The law is written as "mostly concealed". The intent of this wording was to protect people who are reaching for something on a high shelf and similar things that may cause a shirt to lift up.  However, most people are interpreting this as over 50% of the gun must be concealed.  The law says nothing about printing.  Most holsters cover more than 50% of the gun, the holster isnt part of the gun....and you can see where this could lead.  

My way of thinking is that as long as most of the gun AND holster are concealed, you're good.  

If I don't have a concealed carry license and I print I can get arrested for carrying a concealed weapon but if I have a concealed carry license and I print I'm brandishing?  Something like that?

^  Does Ohio have some kind of "printing" law

+1   There's no legal problem with printing in my area, but still I'd rather avoid it. Kind of like underwear, I see it as nobody else's business. People who don't know me really don't want to be visually informed about my underwear. And even with people who do know me, I don't see a reason to flash my underwear at them.

This is probably the best way to describe it.

Im sure everyone is wearing underwear, just not my concern.

I don't care if I print, but I prefer not to a group and try my best not to, just not to invite trouble.

One of my jobs would have fired me if I had been found carrying. Not illegal, but they had a no-gun policy.



I carried at my college for well over a year before SB 707 made it illegal on 1/1/16. I had been caught it would have been a problematic, regardless of legality.



CA also has a rather loosely-defined"brandishing" law that a cop (or school administrator) could use to really fuck you over if he felt like it. Fortunately most cops in CA are actually pretty pro-carry, at least where I live/work (Sac and El Dorado counties).



 

1) I live in Massachusetts.
2) I'm a service tech and a lot my my customers would not be too happy.
3) I don't really want any attention.

There are a lot of reasons why I don't want to print, most have already been stated.

Besides the fact that I'm new to it, this. For example, it's legal to carry in a movie theater here in OH (unless posted). But if I printed badly and someone notices can you imagine the panic given recent events?

But yes, in general people obsess over printing more than necessary. Like some have said, demeanor while carrying is usually more important than where your shirt is sitting.

I could care less if I print.

You say you aren't talking about work but more like when pumping gas...

How many hours a week are you at work?
How many hours a week are you pumping gas?

When you really carry all the time, then minimizing printing matters. I'm not talking being obsessed but considering it and keeping it to a minimum.

I am my own boss, but as a doctor it is a big deal. I live in a small town, if a parent notices me carrying when I am seeing their kid then freaks out plasters that all over facebook. How do you think that will affect my business?

I ignore signs that say no guns allowed. If they notice me carrying there, they can ask me to leave. If I don't I'm trespassing.

If you go visit a friend or family member who either themselves or their spouse is uncomfortable with someone having a loaded gun on them in their house. Just avoid the drama. Keep it hidden.

I don't carry for attention. I don't want to talk to everyone about how it is my right and they need to get over it. I just want to carry my gun and be prepared to use it defense of life and limb without any unnecessary drama. I have managed to do that for the last 7 years without being made.

Well said, I feel the same way. All sorts of people feel differently about firearms, and its not my job to convince them of anything or to change their stance on them. Best to keep it out of sight and out of mind(to others), and hopefully never have to use it.

If you live near a college campus like I do printing is an issue,that's why I switched back to snubbie cause my g19 wouldn't conceal very well without having to wear multiple layers.

"Near" as in ON campus? Otherwise why would it be an issue, its only illegal on campus property correct?

If you wear sack suits like a furniture salesman, sure.  If you wear clothing that is tailored then no.

For me, the concern is that someone else knows I have a gun. It's not their business to know only mine. Concealment means that someone is unable to tell. It's my advantage.

Cover is just that - cover. Example: I throw a shirt over it. There is an obvious bulge on your side or behind your hip. If you reach up, your shirt reveals it. If you bend over, your shirt gets hung up on it. There is a clear outline of the grip discernible to an observer.

At that point, you may as well open carry. If I've lost the advantage of surprise, I may as well gain the advantage of quicker access. Get the shirt out of the way and carry in a good OWB set-up. I have a Bianchi 57 I really like, but there is no active retention. I have a Safariland 7TS for that.

Up until January 1, "printing" was specifically illegal in Texas.  The Legislature last fall adjusted the statute to exempt "accidental" disclosure of a concealed pistol, but until then, printing could have gotten me arrested AND had my carry license suspended or even pulled.

Still today, with the corrected statute and with open carry legal in Texas, I do not want to advertise when I'm carrying.  It can make others uncomfortable (and being a nice guy I don't want to do that), and it's contrary to the concept of "concealed carry."  If the bad guys can figure out I'm carrying because my pistol is visible, they might target me or my family around me.

Generally yes. Here in Idaho, you are allowed to carry on campus with an Idaho enhanced permit. (With the exception of a few buildings on campus)

Even though it is legal, it frowned upon when a gun is printing because it is such a touchy subject. No need to get people riled up for no reason. Especially since colleges tend to be very liberal, its just not worth the stress that goes along with it. That's my look on it anyways.

Depends on the situation, 98% of the time I do not care or think about printing and just strap on a full size pistol with light OWB. With that said I do own a shield and carry it IWB when need be.

x2

I did worry about it 10-15 years ago. Now with proper gun belt, IWBH, clothes that hide well, no worries. Daily carry a G-21 or M&P 9 Pro inside waist band when in pants/polo/dress shirts. Jeans/shorts with a Columbia HeatnGear OWB sometimes. My friends can never tell when I am carrying. Our social group assumes you are carrying. Spare mag carrier and one in the mag holder pocket on Propper pants.

I'm glad your state's laws are cool with that - some states want "concealed" to be "secret."

It's a bad use of the terms.  From a military perspective "cover" is something that both hides you from observation and provides protection against incoming rounds, while concealment is just protection from observation.

But I get where you're going.  

The bolded portion is an extreme example as might be the case with a tight fitting, stretchy shirt like a rash guard used to conceal the handgun, as you point out it really isn't concealing anything.

On the other hand a very brief, slight and indistinct bulge under your shirt when you turn or bend isn't that big a deal as the average person isn't going to recognize it at all, let alone for what it is.

To someone what knows what to look for the belt loops of clips from an IWB holster are a dead giveaway, unless the short also fully covers them.

Then you have that guy who thinks he "concealing" his hand gun under a jacket or vest in weather that is too warm for a jacket or vest. Again it's a dead giveaway.

A variant on that is Mr. Tacticool, who wears your basic operator cap and shades along with a T-shirt with a logo that leaves little doubt that he's probably carrying.    

----

Concealment is important for two reasons.  First, it offers a tactical advantage by hiding the fact that you are carrying a handgun.  More importantly however, it prevents other people from knowing you are carrying a handgun, and that saves you a lot of trouble personally and as a community of CCW individuals it saves us all a lot of unwanted attention and social pressure.  Simply put, some people are uncomfortable with other people who carry guns, and that discomfort becomes a motivator for anti-gun politics.  It's all avoided if you just take proper care to fully conceal your hand gun, and at the same time not look like a guy who is packing.  

A well designed holster that is both low profile and keeps the butt of the handgun tucked in tightly to your hip, side, etc, goes a long way toward accomplishing that.

Similarly, resisting the temptation to select a handgun like you're about to go into combat helps a lot too.   You don't need 15 rounds of full size double stack 9mm handgun (or worse said handgun and with two spare 15 round magazines) or a 5" 1911 to defend yourself.  A compact or micro sized 9mm or .380, or a J frame revolver will get the job done just fine, given that about 99% of self defense shoots are over in done with in 5 rounds or less, and given that fully half of all "stops" are psychological stops where the assailant just getting shot is enough o put off the attack.  For everything else, five rounds of well chosen 9mm, .38 or .380 self defense loads will still get the job done.

     

So you're saying it's advantageous to look exactly the same as 100% of the people that will be victimized by a violent criminal?  FACT: Everyone that will be mugged or robbed today look basically no different than a person carrying a concealed weapon.  If your goal was to lure a mugger in so you could have the joy of shooting him and then dealing with the aftermath, concealed carry is just the ticket.  Why?  Because surprise is an offensive maneuver, not a defensive one.  Surprise is what the mugger will use on you- while what you're calling surprise is better defined as 'damage control' or the act of trying to fight your way out of a bad situation.  I've watched countless videos of store robberies and I have NEVER seen even one where the robber walks in and carefully checks the customers for bulges and printing before committing the deed.  Have you?

Sadly, some of the people who are uncomfortable with guns are other gun owners that post stuff like this in forums.  I have a solid decade of open carry, the bulk of which was done when I lived in the most crime infested city in the Pacific Northwest.  In ten years and thousands of interactions with the public, I have seen only TWO people that objected to fully open carry; one who wanted to debate private firearms ownership (she believed only the police should even own a gun) and one who was angry at the dispatcher for telling her they were not going to dispatch a police officer to investigate lawful carry.  I have had countless of supportive and positive encounters though; so I have to ask, from where are you drawing your data to support your belief?

I agree with most of this part with a big BUT....

I flew four-engine jets for 20 years in the AF.  We would never take off with an engine out, however we always planned for an engine to fail on takeoff roll.  Plan for the worst and hope for the best; it's a concept that carries over into all aspects of our lives, including self-defense plans.  What I "need" is of little relevance to my decision making process.  I shoot bigger guns much better.  I don't carry 9mm because it's the minimum acceptable caliber for self-defense, and why carry the minimum when better options are available?  So I prioritize my needs- and concealment, because it doesn't matter here, is placed much lower on the list than effectivity or reliability.  
     
It's been mentioned several times in this thread already; 99% of the people will never notice the bulge (or even the full print) of a handgun on your belt.  Of the few that do, they aren't going to care.  If they do; so what?  as long as my behavior is lawful I don't need to worry.  Concealed carry is a lawful activity here (as is open carry) and I do not have to answer police questions for any lawful activity.  

I carry indifferently; my handgun is no different (personally or legally) than any other accessory I put on when I get dressed.  Wallet, keys, hat, gun, all are the same under the law for any place I might go on a given day.

I think your conclusion above is a bit of a stretch.

Concealing the fact that I'm carrying a handgun and telegraphing the body language of a victim are two completely different things.

Visible gun or not, the criminal predator is far less likely to go after someone who's head is up and aware of their surroundings and carries themselves in a physically strong manner
than an oblivious, eyes down ready made victim.

Simple truth is, you're aware of your surroundings or not.  And if your not, open carry doesn't really bring a benefit to the table.
There are numerous cases of OC guy being relieved of his weapon by a thug.
Likely what they telegraphed to the predator was "I'm not paying attention, and there's a really big score on my hip"

Can you cite the claim that someone openly carrying was relieved of their firearm?  I think there were two or three cases and at least two of them tuned out to be phony.  

This isn't a thread about open carry though, it's about printing.  I used open carry as an extreme example.

You've introduced an straw-man argument with 'body language' and awareness.  The fact that there is a bulge on my hip under my shirt has absolutely ZERO impact on my awareness or body language.  

My claim is true; when we carry concealed we look exactly the same as anyone who is not carrying.  If you insist on breaking it down:
Concealed carry with good situational awareness looks exactly the same as any victim who is unarmed exhibiting the same good situational awareness.
Concealed carry with poor situational awareness looks exactly the same as any victim who is unarmed exhibiting the same poor situational awareness.

pretty derp to say what a person 'doesn't' need as far as firearms, sounds like the guys who say one does not need a 30 round 'clip'. I always say carry what you practice with and are proficient with, Have you tried taking a 3 days class going through 1500 rds with a micro gun? I'd rather have 18+1 in my gun then a j frame even if I only needed 2 rounds to diffuse one situation

That's SOP for that user and others who will not be named. I've gotten flamed, called an "operator," and "spiteful" for simply mentioning the G19 as a possible option for a carry gun.

ETA: Toned it down a bit...

Right.  Take it out of context, twist the meaning, and then blame me for a statement that makes no sense in the entirely different context you created for it.

Bonus points for trying to take a common sense approach to an individual decision on a concealed carry pistol and trying to turn it into a political statement against high capacity magazines.   Apparently you've had some success pushing people around with your flawed logic and hyperbole, but it's given you a skewed impression of how things really work.

-----

No, as a matter of fact, I wouldn't take a Kimber Micro or a J-frame through a 1500 round pistol class - particularly, a class intended for an entirely different application than concealed carry.

I also wouldn't base my concealed carry decision based on the fact that I took a large frame high capacity 9mm Para or .45 ACP pistol through a 1500 round tactical pistol class either.

Both courses of action would be pretty stupid.

-----

The point you are trying real hard to miss is that it's a good idea to select the optimum tool for the job, and for concealed carry where lightweight and concealability need to be balanced against magazine capacity, controllability and accuracy, you're going to select a handgun that's some where in the middle.  If you're smart, you're going to actually consider the magazine capacity required, rather than bringing more than you need.  

For example, I've seen guys show up at pin shoots with extended magazines.  Dumb idea and a great example of selecting the wrong tool for the job. Why? Because the people who are competitive in pin shoots are people who shoot fast but don't miss - a fast miss is still a whole lot slower than a slow hit, or worse a bad hit that gets the pin spinning on the table.  Bringing an extended magazine is not only planning to miss, it's also increasing the potential to miss because you're adding weight and mass in all the wrong places on the pistol.   You're also probably increasing the potential for a malfunction given the greater weight the magazine has to lift in the fixed slide over run time available.

As another example I have a Remington 700 set up as a precision rifle that will shoot 1 MOA all day long.  It's the ideal rifle for long range shooting, but it's heavy, the rate of fire is slow, the magazine capacity is limited, the field of view through the scope is limited, and it's not very agile in terms of handling, so it's a poor choice for a tactical rifle match where speed in target acquisition, rate of fire, magazine capacity and handling matter more than accuracy - a place where a light, fast handling, semi -auto capable of only 2-3 MOA accuracy is much better suited to the task at hand.  

Now...I'm pretty sure.you wouldn't recommend a Rem 700 in a light tactical rifle match as it is the wrong tool for the job.  Yet you're more than willing to put forward a large frame high capacity pistol for concealed carry, when it involves serious compromises in weight, comfort and concealability - and may well not be the best tool for the job for the OP given the priorities involved and how he may decide to weight those competing priorities.

This is the part you continue to miss.  A gun's ability to be concealed is prioritized very low by many people, and some don't really care if it's concealed poorly.

If I am indifferent to how well my gun is concealed, then I can carry the "optimal" gun, which for most people is a full sized gun.  The higher capacity is just a side benefit.

Now, YOU may prefer to carry 'more' concealed, or you may be required by law to carry more concealed, so you may want or need to prioritize differently.  Nevertheless, we aren't all you.

Concealed means "obscured from view" it does not mean undetectable.

I selected the guns I carry specifically because (until recently) Texas' CCW laws required "complete hiding" of a concealed handgun - printing, even innocently, was considered under the same section as "brandishing a weapon," and I was certainly not going to give anyone a chance to accuse me of doing do.  With that said, there are some pretty small and "concealable" pistols out there that stay hidden even with 15 round magazines.  My biggest problem has been my gut (and the kind of clothes I wear), which makes some carry choices unworkable.

It's in your post in plain English, either way not getting into a dick measuring contest, but if your not running your daily carry gun through 'tactical' classes your doing it wrong, I wouldn't carry a gun I haven't run through its paces and most pocket guns would fail at this. I conceal a full framed 'combat' pistol and just dress around the gun knowing that it is a gun I have run hard and can trust my life to.


A small very concealable gun is of no use if you can't shoot worth a shit with it.

All other argument BS aside, I will agree with this. I daily carried a G19 until I bought my smaller 43 and started carrying it. I love the size and slim profile, but I flat out cannot shoot it as well. Im currently trying to decide what to replace it with, that I can shoot as well as my 19, which I have gone back to carrying daily.

That being said, often I carry a bodyguard .380 with a spare reload(or two, depending on the situation). I can flat out shoot that little pocket gun better than the G43 any day of the week, and have run it through defensive drills and train with it every time I go to the range.

I will agree with you that many are very likely guilty of not training with their pocket pistols, and I do feel that its a mistake.

Unless you work for the Psychic Friends  Network or can tell the future, then you don't know what someone will or won't "need"!



The whole point of CCW is to be as prepared as possible for a worst case & horrible scenario.  What to carry for such a situation should be based on several criteria.  And while almost anyone can make recommendations, NO ONE can say with 100% certainty what another person will encounter or what they'll need when they do.  Feel free to make recommendations based on what are the most probable events, but don't try & tell anyone what they will or won't definitively encounter or need to survive it!

Hope for the best, but plan & prepare for the worst (within reason).