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Posted: 1/22/2015 8:40:40 PM EDT
Searched and couldn't find a thread for this already, so sorry if this has already been covered. That being said;
http://six12.com http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/01/16/crye-precision-six12-bullpup-shotgun/ "Crye Precision debuted their double-action Six12 modular bullpup shotgun. Designed as a safer and more efficient door breacher, the Six12 is a 12-gauge, 6-round cylinder-fed modular shotgun platform. The bullpup layout brings the weight closer to the shooter and allows the Six12 to be as compact as possible. The Six12 attaches to most AR-15 platforms and is also availale in a standalone shoulder fired system which doesn’t require any NFA paperwork, a short barrel platform will be availale that will require NFA paperwork however. The 6-round cylinder accepts 12-gauge shells up to 3? and barrel lengths of 22?, 18? and 12.5? overall will be available." Thoughts? Preliminary speculations? Just curious to see what everyone here has to say about it as both a stand-alone shotgun and a potential under-barrel shotgun module for an AR. |
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Posted: 1/22/2015 8:45:49 PM EDT
[#1]
This was shown last year, so it's already been discussed quite a bit.
However, I do like the collaboration version with SiCo. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/01/21/crye-precision-six12-salvod/ 
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Posted: 1/22/2015 10:29:27 PM EDT
[#2]
Oddly, needs a rear mounted trigger assembly.
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Posted: 1/22/2015 11:09:31 PM EDT
[#3]
Really interested to see how this deploys. Title I and Title II models? SBS and AOW versions?
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Posted: 1/22/2015 11:11:43 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This was shown last year, so it's already been discussed quite a bit. However, I do like the collaboration version with SiCo. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/01/21/crye-precision-six12-salvod/ http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/IMG_9208-660x495.jpg An integrally suppressed, 12-gauge bullpup shotgun. That's really something to behold.... |
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Posted: 1/23/2015 12:44:27 AM EDT
[#5]
Interesting.
Questions: 1) how to reload? The rounds are in an interchangeable magazine for quick reload or it opens like a revolver? 2) the trigger seems to have a short travel. How does the shotgun load the rounds? |
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Posted: 1/23/2015 3:53:55 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Interesting. Questions: 1) how to reload? The rounds are in an interchangeable magazine for quick reload or it opens like a revolver? I believe it's an interchangeable magazine. I need one as it's the closest I'll ever get to a Pancor Jackhammer. |
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Posted: 1/23/2015 6:11:19 PM EDT
[#7]
Mags drop out and are interchangeable. Out of curiosity, does anyone have serious plans to buy one of the non-NFA versions and equip it to their AR? I'm thinking an 18" AR-10 with a variable magnification optic and one of these bolted underneath the barrel (also with an 18" barrel) would make for one hell of a SHTF platform... |
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Posted: 1/23/2015 6:15:19 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Really interested to see how this deploys. Title I and Title II models? SBS and AOW versions? According to the sources I've read, it seems for the civilian market they plan to sell them in the following forms; - Non-NFA platform with 22" barrel and standalone stock module - NFA SBS or AOW version which will be JUST the actual shotgun module with either the 18" or 12" barrel - All three barrel sizes available for sale independently for the end user to configure however they want |
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Posted: 1/23/2015 8:00:08 PM EDT
[#9]
Any projected release date?
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Posted: 1/23/2015 8:09:48 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://www.hausofguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/IMG_9443.jpg Mags drop out and are interchangeable. Out of curiosity, does anyone have serious plans to buy one of the non-NFA versions and equip it to their AR? I'm thinking an 18" AR-10 with a variable magnification optic and one of these bolted underneath the barrel (also with an 18" barrel) would make for one hell of a SHTF platform... Cool! So, it cycles the rounds just like a revolver? Did you try it? How heavy is it? Here in WA SBS are still not allowed so we would have to go with the long barrel, and this would defeat mounting it under the rifle barrel. In that case, I'm not sure I would buy one. The tubes and magazines hold more rounds. However, if SBS are finally allowed here in WA things would change. 
On a side note, it would be very interesting adding an adapter to hold a 10-round magazine. I would definitely consider getting one. |
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Posted: 1/23/2015 9:41:13 PM EDT
[#11]
Everone knows when you shoot a revolver a bunch of hot gas blows out between the cylinder and barrel......... not sure I like have that going on next to my face.
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Posted: 1/24/2015 2:01:13 PM EDT
[#12]
Rossi, I haven't had a chance to get any hands-on time with one of these yet myself, just repeating what I've read from other sources.
I'm not sure why you state that not being able to use the short 12" barrel would defeat the purpose of mounting it to an AR? The last picture in the original post is an example of a completely non-NFA version of how the Six12 could be mounted under an AR. Based on the image it looks fairly practical to me. While yes a much more interesting way to go about it would be getting stamps for both and SBR and an SBS and going with shorter barrels for both the rifle and the shotgun, they do say specifically they've designed it such that you can have it mounted underneath the barrel of a 16" AR, using either the 22" or 18" length barrel for the shotgun, and have the entire platform legally without having any NFA involvement or consideration. Personally, whenever I end up saving up enough money to be able to afford all of it, my plan is to get an 18" AR-10, buy the complete version of the Six12 with 22" barrel and standalone stock module, then get the 18" barrel to swap out when I want it mounted to the AR-10. That gives me the option to run either the AR-10 on it's own, the Six12 on it's own, or bolt the two together and have one badass zombie apocalypse platform - all legally without having constructed either an SBR or an SBS 
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Posted: 1/24/2015 2:10:34 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Everone knows when you shoot a revolver a bunch of hot gas blows out between the cylinder and barrel......... not sure I like have that going on next to my face. I haven't been able to find the technical details in exactly how it's done, but several reports I've read and videos I've watched mention that they've built a mechanism into the trigger pull process that seals the cylinder with the barrel before firing a round - thus keeping the gasses contained and not blowing out in your face. |
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Posted: 1/24/2015 2:51:40 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Rossi, I haven't had a chance to get any hands-on time with one of these yet myself, just repeating what I've read from other sources. I'm not sure why you state that not being able to use the short 12" barrel would defeat the purpose of mounting it to an AR? The last picture in the original post is an example of a completely non-NFA version of how the Six12 could be mounted under an AR. Based on the image it looks fairly practical to me. While yes a much more interesting way to go about it would be getting stamps for both and SBR and an SBS and going with shorter barrels for both the rifle and the shotgun, they do say specifically they've designed it such that you can have it mounted underneath the barrel of a 16" AR, using either the 22" or 18" length barrel for the shotgun, and have the entire platform legally without having any NFA involvement or consideration. Personally, whenever I end up saving up enough money to be able to afford all of it, my plan is to get an 18" AR-10, buy the complete version of the Six12 with 22" barrel and standalone stock module, then get the 18" barrel to swap out when I want it mounted to the AR-10. That gives me the option to run either the AR-10 on it's own, the Six12 on it's own, or bolt the two together and have one badass zombie apocalypse platform - all legally without having constructed either an SBR or an SBS What's the barrel length on this one?
12 or 18in? Don't both require the SBS paperwork? I would use it under a 15. The 10 is already very heavy (compared to the 10) by itself and when you add this shotgun under it be ready to do some weight lifting. 
It looks very sweet and I would definitely get one, though.
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Posted: 1/24/2015 6:09:59 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I haven't been able to find the technical details in exactly how it's done, but several reports I've read and videos I've watched mention that they've built a mechanism into the trigger pull process that seals the cylinder with the barrel before firing a round - thus keeping the gasses contained and not blowing out in your face. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Everone knows when you shoot a revolver a bunch of hot gas blows out between the cylinder and barrel......... not sure I like have that going on next to my face. I haven't been able to find the technical details in exactly how it's done, but several reports I've read and videos I've watched mention that they've built a mechanism into the trigger pull process that seals the cylinder with the barrel before firing a round - thus keeping the gasses contained and not blowing out in your face. Interesting, like a Nagant revolver? I've wanted one of these things since last year, one if the main reasons being that they're apparently made right here in Brooklyn. Which is pretty shocking. |
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Posted: 1/24/2015 10:00:44 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What's the barrel length on this one? http://modernserviceweapons.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/2014-01-19_09.06.36_05.jpg 12 or 18in? Don't both require the SBS paperwork? I would use it under a 15. The 10 is already very heavy (compared to the 10) by itself and when you add this shotgun under it be ready to do some weight lifting.
It looks very sweet and I would definitely get one, though.
I believe the barrel on the Six12 in that photo is the 18" barrel. And no, it doesn't require the SBS paperwork, provided that the barrel is at least 18", and that overall length (in the case of the one pictured, overall length of the shotgun would be measured from the front of the barrel to the rear of the stock on the AR buffer tube) is at least 26", no different from any other shotgun. Now it very well may be that the sample in that particular picture is running the 22" barrel, but it's fairly evident that it's not the 12" barrel, because that barrel makes it look like this; 
That and several articles I've read specifically quote reps from Crye Precision stating that you will be able to mount the shotgun under a 16"+ barreled AR without any NFA involvement. |
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Posted: 1/26/2015 10:56:05 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:I would use it under a 15. The 10 is already very heavy (compared to the 10) by itself and when you add this shotgun under it be ready to do some weight lifting. I think I missed this line the first time reading through but yes that's the conclusion I've come to as well. I'll be picking up an 18" barreled AR-15 when I'm ready, that way the overall platform is lighter and I have ammo cross-compatability between the rifle AR and my AR pistol 
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Posted: 1/29/2015 11:00:51 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think I missed this line the first time reading through but yes that's the conclusion I've come to as well. I'll be picking up an 18" barreled AR-15 when I'm ready, that way the overall platform is lighter and I have ammo cross-compatability between the rifle AR and my AR pistol Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:I would use it under a 15. The 10 is already very heavy (compared to the 10 15) by itself and when you add this shotgun under it be ready to do some weight lifting. I think I missed this line the first time reading through but yes that's the conclusion I've come to as well. I'll be picking up an 18" barreled AR-15 when I'm ready, that way the overall platform is lighter and I have ammo cross-compatability between the rifle AR and my AR pistol Yep. If a 18in barrel is not considered a SBS I'll probably go the same line. Just noticed a clerical mistake in my post.
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Posted: 2/6/2015 2:36:26 PM EDT
[#19]
Someone finally got their hands on video of this thing!
http://www.military.com/video/guns/shotguns/shot-show-2015-crye-precision-six12-modular-shotgun/4003374989001/ Looks incredible to me. Makes me want one even more! At their booth at 2015 SHOT their rep was saying they were putting a little extra time into development of the platform but said early 2016 is their goal for civilian sales. Looking forward to it. That means I have all of 2015 to decide and purchase the rifle I want to mount this thing under...Decisions, decisions
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Posted: 2/6/2015 2:49:16 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Someone finally got their hands on video of this thing!
http://www.military.com/video/guns/shotguns/shot-show-2015-crye-precision-six12-modular-shotgun/4003374989001/ Looks incredible to me. Makes me want one even more! At their booth at 2015 SHOT their rep was saying they were putting a little extra time into development of the platform but said early 2016 is their goal for civilian sales. Looking forward to it. That means I have all of 2015 to decide and purchase the rifle I want to mount this thing under...Decisions, decisions http://www.military.com/video/guns/shotguns/shot-show-2015-crye-precision-six12-modular-shotgun/4003374989001/ |
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Posted: 2/6/2015 2:56:55 PM EDT
[#21]
I'll take two.
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Posted: 2/6/2015 6:05:56 PM EDT
[#22]
Sweeet
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Posted: 2/6/2015 7:22:30 PM EDT
[#23]
I don't like shotguns.
I want this as an SBS with the full kit. |
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Posted: 2/7/2015 10:13:01 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Interesting, like a Nagant revolver? I've wanted one of these things since last year, one if the main reasons being that they're apparently made right here in Brooklyn. Which is pretty shocking. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Everone knows when you shoot a revolver a bunch of hot gas blows out between the cylinder and barrel......... not sure I like have that going on next to my face. I haven't been able to find the technical details in exactly how it's done, but several reports I've read and videos I've watched mention that they've built a mechanism into the trigger pull process that seals the cylinder with the barrel before firing a round - thus keeping the gasses contained and not blowing out in your face. Interesting, like a Nagant revolver? I've wanted one of these things since last year, one if the main reasons being that they're apparently made right here in Brooklyn. Which is pretty shocking. The face of the cylinder has rings/collars around every chamber. When the cylinder rotates lining up the next chamber with the barrel's forcing cone, the cylinder moves forward slightly pushing the ring/collar "into" the forcing cone creating a seal. Unlike a revolver cylinder there is "no gap" when a round is fired. |
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Posted: 2/7/2015 6:02:27 PM EDT
[#25]
So it's a revolver SG then? I dunno. Maybe. I'd need to sample one.
The trigger take up will have to be long enough to cycle the next rd into battery position. My Vepr-12 is probably going to be faster... |
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Posted: 2/7/2015 6:38:02 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So it's a revolver SG then? I dunno. Maybe. I'd need to sample one. The trigger take up will have to be long enough to cycle the next rd into battery position. My Vepr-12 is probably going to be faster... Seems more designed for breaching than 3gun. |
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Posted: 2/8/2015 12:27:52 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The face of the cylinder has rings/collars around every chamber. When the cylinder rotates lining up the next chamber with the barrel's forcing cone, the cylinder moves forward slightly pushing the ring/collar "into" the forcing cone creating a seal. Unlike a revolver cylinder there is "no gap" when a round is fired.  It's a Nagant shotgun?
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Posted: 2/8/2015 1:35:53 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Seems more designed for breaching than 3gun. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So it's a revolver SG then? I dunno. Maybe. I'd need to sample one. The trigger take up will have to be long enough to cycle the next rd into battery position. My Vepr-12 is probably going to be faster... Seems more designed for breaching than 3gun. That's awful lot of dev time/$$$/effort just for a door breecher. |
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Posted: 2/8/2015 11:46:27 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's a Nagant shotgun?Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: The face of the cylinder has rings/collars around every chamber. When the cylinder rotates lining up the next chamber with the barrel's forcing cone, the cylinder moves forward slightly pushing the ring/collar "into" the forcing cone creating a seal. Unlike a revolver cylinder there is "no gap" when a round is fired. It's a Nagant shotgun?That would mean you could use a silencer on it! |
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Posted: 2/8/2015 11:46:57 AM EDT
[#30]
I want one.
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Posted: 2/8/2015 12:18:03 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That would mean you could use a silencer on it! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: The face of the cylinder has rings/collars around every chamber. When the cylinder rotates lining up the next chamber with the barrel's forcing cone, the cylinder moves forward slightly pushing the ring/collar "into" the forcing cone creating a seal. Unlike a revolver cylinder there is "no gap" when a round is fired. It's a Nagant shotgun?That would mean you could use a silencer on it! Did you see the picture of it with the integrated SiCo Salvo? |
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Posted: 2/8/2015 12:45:35 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Someone finally got their hands on video of this thing!
http://www.military.com/video/guns/shotguns/shot-show-2015-crye-precision-six12-modular-shotgun/4003374989001/ Looks incredible to me. Makes me want one even more! At their booth at 2015 SHOT their rep was saying they were putting a little extra time into development of the platform but said early 2016 is their goal for civilian sales. Looking forward to it. That means I have all of 2015 to decide and purchase the rifle I want to mount this thing under...Decisions, decisions http://www.military.com/video/guns/shotguns/shot-show-2015-crye-precision-six12-modular-shotgun/4003374989001/ For those of you who don't want to read through all of the posts in this thread, just watch this video. Yes it is a revolving shotgun. Here are a few slow motion shots that lets you see exactly how it operates, including cylinder and barrel changes. |
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Posted: 2/8/2015 12:46:17 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Someone finally got their hands on video of this thing!
http://www.military.com/video/guns/shotguns/shot-show-2015-crye-precision-six12-modular-shotgun/4003374989001/ Looks incredible to me. Makes me want one even more! At their booth at 2015 SHOT their rep was saying they were putting a little extra time into development of the platform but said early 2016 is their goal for civilian sales. Looking forward to it. That means I have all of 2015 to decide and purchase the rifle I want to mount this thing under...Decisions, decisions http://www.military.com/video/guns/shotguns/shot-show-2015-crye-precision-six12-modular-shotgun/4003374989001/ For those of you who don't want to read through all of the posts in this thread, just watch this video. Yes it is a revolving shotgun. Here are a few slow motion shots that lets you see exactly how it operates, including cylinder and barrel changes. |
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Posted: 2/8/2015 8:22:59 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Did you see the picture of it with the integrated SiCo Salvo? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: The face of the cylinder has rings/collars around every chamber. When the cylinder rotates lining up the next chamber with the barrel's forcing cone, the cylinder moves forward slightly pushing the ring/collar "into" the forcing cone creating a seal. Unlike a revolver cylinder there is "no gap" when a round is fired. It's a Nagant shotgun?That would mean you could use a silencer on it! Did you see the picture of it with the integrated SiCo Salvo? Here's some more pictures from Outdoor Hub -12 Awesome Guns from the SilencerCo SHOT 2015 Booth 
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Posted: 2/18/2015 5:34:23 PM EDT
[#35]
Looks like S&S are looking for T&E from gov and LE agencies. There are some concerns with this type of design, and it certainly has it's drawbacks as a breaching weapon (and the idea of having an under barrel shotgun on a fighting rifle is certainly debated), but there are definite advantages, also.
Either way, I still want the integrated suppressed version, just because it's cool. |
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Posted: 3/6/2015 7:28:28 AM EDT
[#36]
Alright, I thought up an interesting brain teaser for the guys more familiar with SBS/AOW/>26" OAL "Firearms";
Crye Precision has stated they'll be selling the actual shotgun module (with <18" barrel) separate from the standalone stock unit - presumably meaning they'll be selling a version of the gun that has never had a stock attached. Think of this as a "PGO" version of the Six12. Here's my question/head scratcher; If you purchased the PGO/<18" barrel version of the Six12, then mounted it under the barrel of a legally registered AR pistol, assuming that both the OAL from the end of the rifle barrel to the rear-most part of the platform AND separately the OAL from the end of the shotgun to the rear-most part of the the platform were BOTH 26" or more, would the combined rifle/shotgun platform be legally considered a "Firearm", and thus a Non-NFA item? Take for example this picture; 
Imagine for a moment that the AR platform is a legally registered pistol with an SB15 arm brace on the buffer tube, and that the Six12 module was purchased from Crye Precision WITHOUT the standalone stock module ever attached - meaning neither of the two firearms have EVER had a buttstock attached to them. Assuming that the OAL of both the AR pistol AND the Six12 are BOTH 26" or more, wouldn't this legally be considered a "Firearm" and thus not under the purview of the NFA? Thoughts? |
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Posted: 3/6/2015 8:45:51 AM EDT
[#37]
NVM. Misread
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Posted: 3/6/2015 11:52:26 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Alright, I thought up an interesting brain teaser for the guys more familiar with SBS/AOW/>26" OAL "Firearms";
Crye Precision has stated they'll be selling the actual shotgun module (with <18" barrel) separate from the standalone stock unit - presumably meaning they'll be selling a version of the gun that has never had a stock attached. Think of this as a "PGO" version of the Six12. Here's my question/head scratcher; If you purchased the PGO/<18" barrel version of the Six12, then mounted it under the barrel of a legally registered AR pistol, assuming that both the OAL from the end of the rifle barrel to the rear-most part of the platform AND separately the OAL from the end of the shotgun to the rear-most part of the the platform were BOTH 26" or more, would the combined rifle/shotgun platform be legally considered a "Firearm", and thus a Non-NFA item? Correct, as I read it. State laws may vary, however. |
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Posted: 3/6/2015 10:33:50 PM EDT
[#39]
Neat
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Posted: 3/7/2015 2:21:59 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Alright, I thought up an interesting brain teaser for the guys more familiar with SBS/AOW/>26" OAL "Firearms"; Crye Precision has stated they'll be selling the actual shotgun module (with <18" barrel) separate from the standalone stock unit - presumably meaning they'll be selling a version of the gun that has never had a stock attached. Think of this as a "PGO" version of the Six12. Here's my question/head scratcher; If you purchased the PGO/<18" barrel version of the Six12, then mounted it under the barrel of a legally registered AR pistol, assuming that both the OAL from the end of the rifle barrel to the rear-most part of the platform AND separately the OAL from the end of the shotgun to the rear-most part of the the platform were BOTH 26" or more, would the combined rifle/shotgun platform be legally considered a "Firearm", and thus a Non-NFA item? Take for example this picture; http://i.imgur.com/koupuNH.jpg Imagine for a moment that the AR platform is a legally registered pistol with an SB15 arm brace on the buffer tube, and that the Six12 module was purchased from Crye Precision WITHOUT the standalone stock module ever attached - meaning neither of the two firearms have EVER had a buttstock attached to them. Assuming that the OAL of both the AR pistol AND the Six12 are BOTH 26" or more, wouldn't this legally be considered a "Firearm" and thus not under the purview of the NFA? Thoughts? Are you talking about a "legally registered" SBR instead of pistol? Why registering a pistol? Nonetheless, it's a good question. However, would it have to be permanently attached to the host SBR (or pistol) in order to meet the requirement? |
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Posted: 3/7/2015 6:02:24 PM EDT
[#41]
Registered wasn't the right word to use, my apologies. An AR platform that is recognized legally as a pistol rather than a rifle or SBR.
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Posted: 3/7/2015 6:17:45 PM EDT
[#42]
Regarding meeting the requirement for a Non-NFA "firearm" (in this case being a shotgun that has a barrel of less than 18", an OAL of 26" or more, and that had NEVER had a stock attached to it), the host AR can't be anything BUT an AR pistol. Even if the Six12 module you're using has never had a stock attached, if you mount it to an AR with a stock - permanently or otherwise - the stock of the AR now also counts as being the stock of the Six12. And if the Six12 module you mounted has a barrel length any less than 18", that means you've just created an SBS. Even when they're attached, in the eyes of the law you still have two separate firearms, the single stock just counts for both of them - meaning legally speaking you still have an AR with a stock, and separately a shotgun with a stock.
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Posted: 3/7/2015 8:58:48 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Regarding meeting the requirement for a Non-NFA "firearm" (in this case being a shotgun that has a barrel of less than 18", an OAL of 26" or more, and that had NEVER had a stock attached to it), the host AR can't be anything BUT an AR pistol. Even if the Six12 module you're using has never had a stock attached, if you mount it to an AR with a stock - permanently or otherwise - the stock of the AR now also counts as being the stock of the Six12. And if the Six12 module you mounted has a barrel length any less than 18", that means you've just created an SBS. Even when they're attached, in the eyes of the law you still have two separate firearms, the single stock just counts for both of them - meaning legally speaking you still have an AR with a stock, and separately a shotgun with a stock. So, let me see if I understood. We can use a pistol because a pistol does not have a stock. The short barrel shotgun will not be legally a SBS if it does not have a stock. So, if I mount it, even temporarily, to a pistol it still does not have a stock. Therefore, technically we could use it as a non-SBS. Now, how about the grip? I mean a short barreled shotgun that only has a grip is not a SBS? I'm asking this because the AR pistol has a grip. How does it show in the NFA? |
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Posted: 3/8/2015 2:02:29 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So, let me see if I understood. We can use a pistol because a pistol does not have a stock. Correct The short barrel shotgun will not be legally a SBS if it does not have a stock. *If it has never had a stock attached to the receiver, yes - it is legally a "firearm" (firearm being legally defined by the GCA as being 26" or larger in OAL and not designed to be fired from the shoulder), not an SBS, and therefore does not fall under the purview of the NFA. So, if I mount it, even temporarily, to a pistol it still does not have a stock. Therefore, technically we could use it as a non-SBS. Correct, it's still a "firearm". Now, how about the grip? I mean a short barreled shotgun that only has a grip is not a SBS? Yes, because it doesn't have/never had a stock and therefore was never "designed to be fired from the shoulder", a necessary requirement of being legally defined as a shotgun. I'm asking this because the AR pistol has a grip. How does it show in the NFA? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Regarding meeting the requirement for a Non-NFA "firearm" (in this case being a shotgun that has a barrel of less than 18", an OAL of 26" or more, and that had NEVER had a stock attached to it), the host AR can't be anything BUT an AR pistol. Even if the Six12 module you're using has never had a stock attached, if you mount it to an AR with a stock - permanently or otherwise - the stock of the AR now also counts as being the stock of the Six12. And if the Six12 module you mounted has a barrel length any less than 18", that means you've just created an SBS. Even when they're attached, in the eyes of the law you still have two separate firearms, the single stock just counts for both of them - meaning legally speaking you still have an AR with a stock, and separately a shotgun with a stock. So, let me see if I understood. We can use a pistol because a pistol does not have a stock. Correct The short barrel shotgun will not be legally a SBS if it does not have a stock. *If it has never had a stock attached to the receiver, yes - it is legally a "firearm" (firearm being legally defined by the GCA as being 26" or larger in OAL and not designed to be fired from the shoulder), not an SBS, and therefore does not fall under the purview of the NFA. So, if I mount it, even temporarily, to a pistol it still does not have a stock. Therefore, technically we could use it as a non-SBS. Correct, it's still a "firearm". Now, how about the grip? I mean a short barreled shotgun that only has a grip is not a SBS? Yes, because it doesn't have/never had a stock and therefore was never "designed to be fired from the shoulder", a necessary requirement of being legally defined as a shotgun. I'm asking this because the AR pistol has a grip. How does it show in the NFA? Hopefully those explanations help, but I can use an even simpler example. Let's take a well known example of a factory manufactured PGO shotgun. For our purposes, we'll use the Mossberg 500 Chainsaw; 
Regardless of what one might think about the chainsaw-style foregrip, the point is that this is a shotgun that is sold, in factory configuration, as a "pistol grip only" shotgun, the receiver having never had a shoulder stock attached to it. Here's the interesting part; Because it's never had a shoulder stock, and since the OAL is 26" or more, based on the technical legal definition as far as the ATF is concerned, the Chainsaw (and any other factory PGO "shotguns") aren't actually shotguns. The reason? Thanks to the lack of a stock, it was never "designed, intended, or manufactured to be fired from the shoulder", thus it cannot fall under the legal definition of a true shotgun, and instead is lumped into the catch-all designation of "firearm", which are not regulated by the NFA. Even if it is then built to have a shorter barrel than 18" - the legal barrel length minimum for non-SBS true shotguns - as long the the OAL is at least 26", it remains within the designation of a firearm, and isn't regulated under NFA. |
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Posted: 3/8/2015 2:17:49 PM EDT
[#45]
It's difficult to explain all this without diagrams to help with the explanation. I'm probably not doing a very good job
For that reason I should probably put a disclaimer; I am neither a lawyer nor an expert in the ATF, NFA, or GCA. Please do not take my words as legal advice. I maintain no responsibility for legal repercussions any individual may incur from their interpretation of my statements.
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Posted: 3/8/2015 2:48:13 PM EDT
[#46]
NERF has been doing this for years now...glad to see the real gun industry catching up.
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