I'm excited to see how it all works once I have all the components in, it's going ot be expensive when it's all modified and added up.   What I'm looking for is essentially perfect symbotic pairing with my plate carrier (Ferro Concepts FCPC V5).   I do like the aluminum frame and although the Spec Ops Recon Ruck Ultra is 1000D I'm happy to take the added weight for the durability of being able to toss it on an ATV and beat the living crap out of it year after year.  

I just found the TT Super Ergo hip pad/belt for it an ordered it off Ebay.   So, I've got all the main components and now I'm just waiting for the ruck itself to come in.  I've got a few local shops in mind to take it too once I want to add my webbing and grommets, hoping one of them will be willing to take the job (one has done work for me before, but nothing this extensive).  

I'll see if I can get some pics up of it all after I've got it all put together and have had an opportunity to use it.  

Right on, it is "A way of doing things.  If you want bomb-proof and are willing to suck up the weight.  This is where I was at a few years back.  Not saying right or wrong, just where you are at.  

I've had some dickhead tell me at SHOT that NO polymer frame would EVER work in a military application; and I've seen polymer frames shit the bed.  But I've also seen them work quite well.  Especially where the heavier metal frames wear you the fuck out.  So it's kinda a balancing act.

Well, with the polymer frames you can get flex under heavy loads that is not always welcome.   I also get a little paranoid about plastics in extremely cold temps especially when you've got other people handling your packs like the Hulk hands with retard strength they can sometimes treat things with.  

The new 1606 and 1603 polymer frames from DownEastInnovations  are greatly changed from the original MOLLE frame which certainly did have some problems.  They claim the design, and most importantly, the polymer, are much improved.

Complaints about the original black MOLLE I frames were definitely heard.  Since the upgrading of the frames, not nearly so much. Model number of these frames is on the lower horizontal cross member but may be obscured somewhat by the waistbelt--use a light.

The 1606 AC and MC frames have some slight differences.  From pix, I suspect the 1606-MC fame to be more rigid than the 1606-AC frame.  FWIW, I used the 1606-AC frame when constructing my "Mule" rig because it was already lying around.  Otherwise, I might have used the (presumably) more rigid MC frame.

Yeah the polymer frames have come a long way.  Very similar to the P-mags.  Various additives are now being used to strengthen the matrix, just as chromium and molybdenum strengthen steel.  Along with different ways of molding it.  I know this was an on-going process in aerospace as stealth technology pushed the envelope for strengthening non-metallic structures.  I think this is trickling down into other industries as well.  

But some folks can never get past their failures and will probably always use metal frames.  It worked for grand-dad so it's good enough for them.  

The amount of twisting or torquing is a subjective thing; the metal frames don't do it at all, which sounds good in theory, but ends up beating the hell out of you.  The polymers will do a fair amount, which again sounds bad in theory, but usually works well in practice. At least that has been my experience.  I think the polymer frame gives you the perfect balance between an internal and external framed-ruck.  

As to the polymer frames that shit the bed up in Norway, I would submit them Jarheads could tear up a steel ball, so sometimes you gotta keep that in mind.  But yeah, artic weather had an effect on early polymers.  Hot-molded polymers would sometimes become brittle in sub-zero temps.

I have an early gen Recon Ruck.  It doesn't have a claymore pouch and no sleeves behind the pouches, and no radio pouch.  They called it the evolution of the ALICE, but I think they took 2 steps back.  Hopefully they have fixed that.

I have an older TT Malice pack and while the upgrades are cool there are two problems regarding the change from USGI “pack cloth” to Cordura.  One is that Cordura is actually a heavier weight fabric adding ounces, the second is that the looser weave of Cordura doesn’t secure stitching as well so seams and reinforcing points are actually weaker in the long term.  I’ve seen stress points give much faster in Cordura unless they are double reinforced.  I actually think the pack cloth wears better and resists abrasion better too.

Well, yes and no.  Yes, in that 500d (or less) usually works better as a "pack cloth", it is not inherently stronger than 1,000d cordura, in fact it is weaker.  If 1,000d cordura shit the bed before a lighter denier, then the construction techniques were to blame, not the material.  But yes, 500, 320, etc is a much better choice for pack cloth because it's much lighter and usually has enough strength to handle the load.  So weight is the key issue.  In our attempt to make things "bombproof" back in the day, we all went with 1,000d because we thought it would be so much better.  But the weight penalty is substantial, so most folks have returned to lighter materials.  

On a related note, I talked to one of the Gregory's, back when they had a brick n mortar store in San Diego.  The Teams were using Lowe Alpine rucks at the time, which were 320 packcloth, but the seams were busting when thrown from helos, at about 70".  So they went looking for other rucks, and ended up at Gregory's.  The issue wasn't the strength of the materials, rather the way in which the joints were reinforced.  The Gregory's made a stronger joint by double-needle sewing 1" binding tape on all the seams, and this made all the difference.  

By way of explanation, before FAST ropes, they used GI static line ropes, doubled up for personnel, and single ropes for equipment.  When the guys rappelled out, the crew chiefs would toss the rucks.  This was more for jungle penetration rather than speed, so the heights were much higher.  And bags would go SPLAT.  Sort of an extreme example but illustrates the point.  How you make something can be just as important as what materials you selected.  And don't stand under the helo after you rappel down.

Since I tried my hand at making my own PLCE, I’m considering trying to make my own pack.  Similar to the NI patrol pack, but covered with MOLLE/PALS on the outside.  Kinda similar to the modified Alice pack on the previous page.  I would just prefer an internal frame, short back style pack.  The NI pack is about as close as I have come to what I want.  Just a bit unsure on how to make the back panel and what materials to use.

Right on dude!  I'm gonna say this and you're gonna roll your eyes and say yeah right, but, it's just a big damn pouch!  No really I mean it.  There is absolutely nothing different from building a pouch vs building a pack bag.  It's just on a much bigger scale, and maybe has few more bits n bobs.  PM me for any brilliant insights, and I'll pass that right along to someone who knows what he's talking about.  Most packs today are seriously over-complicated, and I think that's just to impress the other pack makers, as much as it is for you.  

Take the NA pack completely apart, pattern it, and re-assemble.  Make any short-cuts you deem necessary (like taking un-needed seams out of panels).  Re-use any aluminum stays available.

Re-use the suspension as-is, or go after it as well.  The padding can be re-used; just fill any sewing holes with Barge cement to re-construct, and put it back together.  Or if it's too trashed just replace with your own closed cell foam.  

Work in small, bite-sized chunks of construction; don't try and do the whole damn thing at once.  Do all the little sub-assemblies and slowly build up.  

Double stitch all seams, them tape them and double stitch again.  

Post pics so we can all ooh and ahh.

Yeah, the addition of the claymore pouch and sleeves behind the pouches are unfortuantely things that I will not remedy with the custom work I want done to it.   I really, really wish that Tactical Tailor did a medium MALICE pack.  If I had a more talented seamstress I probably would see about adding a claymore pouch and even redoing the pouches to allow for the sleeve space, but I'm already going to be pushing my luck just asking for them to add on the PALS webbing and grommets that I want added.   Sadly, I don't have cool shops like General Jackson's near me that do this kind of work and will have to make due with what I've got (a local shop that does shoe repair and seamstress work).

What's the best type of bonded Nylon thread to use to stitch PALS webbing onto 1000D?  

Fil-Tec 16oz Tex 135 Size 138 Gov FF Berry Compliant milspec thread A-A-59826A bonded (Type II) nylon thread coyote brown, would that work?

Apparently it is rated at 22 lb breaking strength.

Tex70 #69 bonded nylon is the lightest thread you should use for .mil equipment, its also the thickest you can likely fit in a #16 or #18 needle used in a household machine.    Its what most Mfg use for basic gear manufacturing.

A Tex 90 #92 bonded nylon is the next grade

Then Tex 135 #138 is next.

#33 Tex 30 and #46 Tex 45 are for sewing clothing and head wear.

Some specs call for a thicker grade thread, such as lift support equipment, parachute harnesses, STABO harness etc.

The Thread Exchange is a good source for various Tex grade threads in majority of the military spec colors from Olive Drab to Desert Tan to Foliage Green 504(Castor Grey alternate) for UCP;  Coyote (brown) #498 for MarPat;  and Tan499 for OCP/Multicam

Rockywoods.com
Jontay.com
wtfidea.com all carry mil spec thread.  Jontay has some import mixed in.

You can find some deals on ebay but some of it is import, non spec.   Stick to A&E and Fil Tec until you can separate the good from the import  junk.

@KaerMorhenResident   @cap6888

It may be worth considering designing one's pack around a pre-made frame sheet which also includes pre-installed (and bendable) frame stays.  SpecOps offers one such, and IIRC other tac gear mfrs also offer them.  In most cases, a thin "compartment" for such frame sheets is necessary to encapsulate the frame sheet for best effect.

Spec Ops Frame sheet

This site explains how to make your own frame sheet:  HERE

GI frame sheet and foam pad HERE

Such a "Frame Sheet compartment" can also include some thin closed cell foam  placed between the frame sheet and user's back and/or a ballistic soft-armor panel.  Again, the pack would need to be designed around the "unalterable" soft armor insert.

Most of the stress point seam failures I see on the lightweight pack cloth look like straight rips along the stitch line and almost like a longer stitch width would solve them as they tear almost like a shipping envelope’s perforated opening.  The failures that I see in the heavier denier stuff is slmost like the weave of the fabric, being made up of thicker thread, cannot hold stitches as well and the stitching actually pulls small holes in between the weave which then loosens and eventually gives out. This also seems to come with degradation of the fabric coatings which must play some role in the integrity of the fabric itself.

It all comes down to what fails first; the stitching or the base material.  The trick is to match the strength of the sew pattern with the weave of the base material.  PPM (Poynter's Parachute Manual) vol 1 had a complete listing of various sew patterns and their applications.  For instance, to join 1" webbing (-337 or equivalent) to 1,000D cordura, with an industrial machine (Juki 8700 or equivalent), with a no. 21 needle, and "E" or no. 69 thread, nylon bonded, sew an "X" pattern of a minimum of 1 1/4", with 6-7 spi (stitches per inch).  This gives approx 1,000 lbs tensile strength, which means the webbing will tear before the stitch pattern gives way. But there's more to it.  In order for the base material to hold up as well, it must be reinforced with additional layers, and/or "doublers" behind the webbing.  Ideally, you use a webbing doubler behind the cordura, so it's sandwiched between them, but lighter binding tape works as well.  The idea is to engage as much of the base material as possible, so the stress is absorbed over the largest possible area.  This is why for join dissimilar materials such as webbing and rolled goods, you want a longer sew pattern of stitching, vs a bar tack, concentrated in one area, which coincidently is precisely why over-perforating one area with stitching actually weakens it.  And also why a continuous piece of webbing is usually preferred to a short piece, if at all possible.  

Many companies in the trade pay no attention to parachute rigging practices and their gear shows it.  If stitching or webbing is pulling out of the actual weave of the fabric, then you haven't reinforced the fabric well enough to take the load.  If a fabric "zippers" along a stitch line, that usually means the needle and thread used was not matched to the material (too big and too heavy).  

So it is the matching of webbing, material, thread, and sew pattern which balances everything out.  Not so much whether we're using 500 or 1,000D.  Military parachute fabric was sewn in a way to withstand opening shock.  The spec used to be 6,000 lb test.  The way they did it was with no. 69 nylon thread (which has a tensile strength of 11lbs, but stretches under load), and putting binding tape in seams, with 4 continuous sew lines.  Between this stretch and a wide enough area, the opening shock can be absorbed.  It's the same principle.  

When I worked at Lockheed, I got to pull test all my common sew patterns and verified Poynter's work.  It was spot on.

Better in some ways, worse in others, also they weren't made from pack cloth...



Contrary to commonly held belief, genuine ALICE LC1 & LC2 OD rucksacks were not made from nylon "pack cloth".  The specific material used was "420 Denier, High Tenacity, Type 6.6 Nylon fabric", sometimes called "420D Parapack" due to the history of the fabric having been originally developed for use in US military parachute deployment bags. The more commonly available/popular 420D pack cloth is made from 'Type 6 Nylon' which is; easier to dye consistently & evenly, less expensive, less densely woven, has a lower melt point, and isn't nearly as abrasion or puncture resistant.

420D "Parapack" fabric has better tear strength than 1000D Cordura and similar puncture resistance as well, all at a much lighter weight per square yard. It's also a smoother fabric than Cordura, so it attracts less dirt & debris allowing for easier an quicker cleaning / decontamination.
But it does fall short in a few areas, such as it's abrasion resistance which is lower than both 1000D & 500D Cordura.  Also it is tends to be more difficult to get consistent coloring via the dyeing process, and it also tends to costs more as there are fewer places offering it.

Now as for the LOWE Alpine packs, I could be mistaken but if I remember correctly then those were made from a 430 Denier (type 6 nylon) fabric in 8oz per square yard weight.  Which is a much weaker fabric with a lower melting point by 70f degrees, less abrasion resistance, less tear & puncture resistance, and last but not least it's also heavier than the 420D "Parapack 6.6" fabric... but it's much cheaper & easier to dye.

Rockywoods was selling milspec 420D parapack as a “pack cloth” stating it was the fabric used in ALICE packs.  I still have a few yards, it was listed as a lightweight pack cloth.  The name parapack even sounds like a branding in the vein of calling tool black “dulite”.  You guys know more than I do though, that’s why I asked about the failures I’ve seen in both issue gear and enhanced private sector gear. Thanks for the clarifications.

Just a heads up for anyone wanting modded ALICE packs, I'd be interested in trying to mod the pack, depending on what you want done.

I have a Lowe pack, made of rather "thin" materials which has some webbing on dorsal side of pack "pulling-through" from base fabric.  Likely this could have prevented by including an "extra-cost" internal reinforcement.

I believe that Lowe made packs to "specified" Mil Specs.  I am guessing that experts within Lowe org may have had their doubts, but proceeded with Military contract, nonetheless.  All this is just a guess.

I've come to think that webbing doesn't play super well attached to a single layer of 500d or (especially) thinner fabric (without internal reinforcements).  It seems to do ok with 1000d if sewn correctly.

I always thought Gene who used to own HSGI had the best ALICE mods.