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Posted: 5/10/2023 6:42:46 PM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ben: Goodness gracious some of you don't have enough patience to make it through March Madness, much less wait through the setup and execution of a legal fight.  https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/72384/Form_1_Submitted-2811829.jpg  Attached File |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 6:55:06 PM EST
[#2]
Lmao! We will be lucky to own semi automatic firearms soon.
Hope I'm wrong obviously! |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 7:16:46 PM EST
[#3]
@ben I’ll chip in $1k if you get me the ability to legally register a full auto, or buy one OTC
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Posted: 5/10/2023 10:03:07 PM EST
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AKaTom: Lmao! We will be lucky to own semi automatic firearms soon. Hope I'm wrong obviously! This is the most ridiculous and hilarious position. We will never, ever lose Semi-Autos, one way or another. If your honest position is that it is possible for us to lose semis without you dying first, then I hope you'd consider taking your spineless self elsewhere. To paraphrase Sam Adams, we want neither your counsel nor arms. |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 10:03:34 PM EST
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By steviesterno16: @ben I’ll chip in $1k if you get me the ability to legally register a full auto, or buy one OTC I'll add you to the list in the GD thread. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/11/2023 1:46:33 AM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ben: I'll add you to the list in the GD thread. Put me down too, my Sten MK6 is worth over 10 grand . This shit is getting ridiculous. |
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Posted: 5/11/2023 1:51:40 AM EST
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By home_alone1: Put me down too, my Sten MK6 is worth over 10 grand . This shit is getting ridiculous. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By home_alone1: Originally Posted By Ben: I'll add you to the list in the GD thread. Put me down too, my Sten MK6 is worth over 10 grand . This shit is getting ridiculous. For 1k? |
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USA
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Posted: 5/11/2023 2:12:43 AM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ben: For 1k? Sure , if you can pull this off you deserve to get paid. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 5/11/2023 2:38:38 AM EST
[#9]
What’s the GD link?
Also are you doing this through that Montana State Guard bill or solely as a private individual? I’d support either, but I think the former if you could get it passed would be significantly more likely. |
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Posted: 5/11/2023 4:30:45 AM EST
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Projectinfinity: What’s the GD link? Also are you doing this through that Montana State Guard bill or solely as a private individual? I’d support either, but I think the former if you could get it passed would be significantly more likely. Link to GD thread. And this is being done solely as an individual. The Home Guard bill was not brought up for a vote by request of the Adjutant General pending some negotiated changes. Those changes were limited and have been made and agreed on, and the bill now has the proper support but must wait til the next session. There is a good possibility the Home Guard will be reorganized provisionally before that though, as the governor currently has the authority to do so unilaterally. |
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Posted: 7/8/2023 3:13:20 PM EST
[#11]
Any updates on this you can share @Ben?
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Posted: 7/8/2023 8:46:35 PM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BourbonBeast: Any updates on this you can share @Ben? Yeah- looking at months before filing. Waiting for a couple pending cases to play out. |
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MP, USA
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Posted: 7/9/2023 9:54:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: JoshNC]
[#13]
We need to focus on lawsuits to get favor court rulings against most of the 68 GCA, 925(d)(3), 922(r), then go after 922(o).
Start with the sporting clause. Submit a Form-6 application to import a European AR15 Rifle. When denied, sue ATF on the grounds that the sporting clause is unconstitutional because the second amendment has nothing to do with sporting arms. Take two identical rifles, one imported, one domestically made. How can the state argue its case that one can’t be imported when the other is available over the counter in any gun shop in the US? Argue that US made ARs are widely available, in common use. Next, go after sbr, sbs, and aow to remove them from NFA regulation. With braced pistols being ruled as SBRs, we have a very favorable setup to argue that SBRs are in common use. Additionally, show a 14.5” barrel colt 6921 SBR and a 16.1” barrel 6920. Argue that one takes a year for approval, the other goes home the same day it’s purchased. Same rifle. Neither is more dangerous than the other. They are identical. It fails criteria of so many prior court decisions. Same with angled fore grips for pistols, they are identical functionally to an aow. Go after the provision of the 68 GCA restricting sales of title-2 firearms to dealers, LE, and gov. Take two identical SBRs, SBSs, and silencers, one group imported, one group domestically made. One legal to own by regular citizens, the other only by dealers, LE, and gov. Go after the NFA transfer tax. The history of the tax was to make the items too expensive for the average man. Taxing a right is unconstitutional. Poll tax is illegal. I think it could won on those grounds. The approval process is also so long as to be unreasonable. We shouldn’t stop until 922(o) the MG ban is ruled unconstitutional in court. |
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Posted: 7/9/2023 9:59:51 AM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JoshNC: We need to focus on lawsuits to get favor court rulings against most of the 68 GCA, 925(d)(3), 922(r), then go after 922(o). Start with the sporting clause. Submit a Form-6 application to import a European AR15 Rifle. When denied, sue ATF on the grounds that the sporting clause is unconstitutional because the second amendment has nothing to do with sporting arms. Take two identical rifles, one imported, one domestically made. How can the state argue its case that one can’t be imported when the other is available over the counter in any gun shop in the US? Argue that US made ARs are widely available, in common use. Next, go after sbr, sbs, and aow to remove them from NFA regulation. With braced pistols being ruled as SBRs, we have a very favorable setup to argue that SBRs are in common use. Additionally, show a 14.5” barrel colt 6921 SBR and a 16.1” barrel 6920. Argue that one takes a year for approval, the other goes home the same day it’s purchased. Same rifle. Neither is more dangerous than the other. They are identical. It fails criteria of so many prior court decisions. Same with angled fore grips for pistols, they are identical functionally to an aow. Go after the provision of the 68 GCA restricting sales of title-2 firearms to dealers, LE, and gov. Take two identical SBRs, SBSs, and silencers, one group imported, one group domestically made. One legal to own by regular citizens, the other only by dealers, LE, and gov. Go after the NFA transfer tax. The history of the tax was to make the items too expensive for the average man. Taxing a right is unconstitutional. Poll tax is illegal. I think it could won on those grounds. The approval process is also so long as to be unreasonable. We shouldn’t stop until 922(o) the MG ban is ruled unconstitutional in court. Honestly, I think right now getting rid of 922(o) is more possible than getting other stuff off the NFA, except maybe SBRs. The whole categorical ban on possession thing is much harder to defend than a tax under current precedent. |
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MT, USA
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Posted: 7/9/2023 10:29:39 AM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ben: Honestly, I think right now getting rid of 922(o) is more possible than getting other stuff off the NFA, except maybe SBRs. The whole categorical ban on possession thing is much harder to defend than a tax under current precedent. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ben: Originally Posted By JoshNC: We need to focus on lawsuits to get favor court rulings against most of the 68 GCA, 925(d)(3), 922(r), then go after 922(o). Start with the sporting clause. Submit a Form-6 application to import a European AR15 Rifle. When denied, sue ATF on the grounds that the sporting clause is unconstitutional because the second amendment has nothing to do with sporting arms. Take two identical rifles, one imported, one domestically made. How can the state argue its case that one can’t be imported when the other is available over the counter in any gun shop in the US? Argue that US made ARs are widely available, in common use. Next, go after sbr, sbs, and aow to remove them from NFA regulation. With braced pistols being ruled as SBRs, we have a very favorable setup to argue that SBRs are in common use. Additionally, show a 14.5” barrel colt 6921 SBR and a 16.1” barrel 6920. Argue that one takes a year for approval, the other goes home the same day it’s purchased. Same rifle. Neither is more dangerous than the other. They are identical. It fails criteria of so many prior court decisions. Same with angled fore grips for pistols, they are identical functionally to an aow. Go after the provision of the 68 GCA restricting sales of title-2 firearms to dealers, LE, and gov. Take two identical SBRs, SBSs, and silencers, one group imported, one group domestically made. One legal to own by regular citizens, the other only by dealers, LE, and gov. Go after the NFA transfer tax. The history of the tax was to make the items too expensive for the average man. Taxing a right is unconstitutional. Poll tax is illegal. I think it could won on those grounds. The approval process is also so long as to be unreasonable. We shouldn’t stop until 922(o) the MG ban is ruled unconstitutional in court. Honestly, I think right now getting rid of 922(o) is more possible than getting other stuff off the NFA, except maybe SBRs. The whole categorical ban on possession thing is much harder to defend than a tax under current precedent. 922(o) has been ripe for plucking a while now - but as you mention it takes the right case to do so. We certainly have a lot of caselaw on the side of removing the dated possession. |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 7/9/2023 11:50:58 AM EST
[#16]
922 as a whole, needs gutted
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MP, USA
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Posted: 7/10/2023 7:36:34 PM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SGT-Fish: 922 as a whole, needs gutted 100%. |
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Posted: 7/13/2023 5:32:25 AM EST
[Last Edit: EagleArmsHBAR]
[#18]
No offense, OP, but what makes you think you can get this done now? Do you know of a certain set of facts that would occur in multiple appellate jurisdictions that could result in a win? Do you already have a lawyer? Are you a lawyer?
For what it's worth, I have long sense held the theory that any machinegun that was owned legally (by govt entities or otherwise legal in some form) prior to 5-19-1986 is transferable, but I don't think that angle has been pushed in the courts yet. 922(o) (2) This subsection does not apply with respect to (B) any lawful transfer or lawful possession of a machinegun that was lawfully possessed before the date this subsection takes effect. Basically, it is my opinion that if you can locate a machinegun that was lawfully owned by anyone (including the US, State, or local governments) prior to 5-19-1986, there is nothing that can prevent the transfer. I also think this would apply to "pre samples". I think that this provision could be the reason that some folks have been approved subsequent to the law taking effect. If the sporting clause of the GCA of 1968 can be revoked, then I think that the "lawful possession" language would apply to imported machinguns and effectively gut the ban as there would be a huge wave of imported pre-1986 guns available. Has anyone ever attempted to force a transfer on a pre sample through litigation? How many pre samples are out there? 922(o) doesn't say anything about pre samples being for dealers only, but maybe that is controlled by the GCA. |
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OR, USA
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Posted: 7/14/2023 3:47:16 PM EST
[#19]
Pretty sure he IS a lawyer. Ben doesn't have to find a lawyer.
There are not just posties or transferrables. There are also pre-samples. NFA is a giant infringement and tax on our rights. Kill it and 922. |
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Posted: 7/14/2023 4:54:43 PM EST
[#20]
Just curious... are there any other situations in US law where something is legal if you pay a tax, but where the authority of an agency to collect that tax is illegal/blocked/refused?
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Posted: 7/14/2023 5:08:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: Jack_Of_Some_Trades]
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jtb33: Just curious... are there any other situations in US law where something is legal if you pay a tax, but where the authority of an agency to collect that tax is illegal/blocked/refused?  ended up getting tossed since you had to self-incriminate to get the stamp to be legal. |
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Posted: 7/14/2023 6:28:12 PM EST
[#22]
So, has that angle ever been truly litigated? Requiring a tax be paid for something, but then refusing to accept the willful payment of that tax?
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Posted: 7/14/2023 10:34:21 PM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Deerhurst: Pretty sure he IS a lawyer. Ben doesn't have to find a lawyer. There are not just posties or transferrables. There are also pre-samples. NFA is a giant infringement and tax on our rights. Kill it and 922. I'm actually not. I completed a political philosophy degree as part of a law track program, then went back on active duty. After active duty I became a federal criminal investigator for a tiny organization most folks have never heard of. So I have a bit of experience with the system from the other side. 
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OR, USA
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Posted: 7/15/2023 2:53:40 PM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ben: I'm actually not. I completed a political philosophy degree as part of a law track program, then went back on active duty. After active duty I became a federal criminal investigator for a tiny organization most folks have never heard of. So I have a bit of experience with the system from the other side. Could have fooled me! Sounds like you know your shit though! |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:37:45 PM EST
[#25]
So, has this pretty much petered out now?
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Posted: 11/15/2023 12:55:19 PM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jtb33: So, has this pretty much petered out now? |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 1:00:38 PM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EagleArmsHBAR: I think so. No updates from OP. Not sure why he thought he could make this happen. It will be interesting to see if he pays everyone that made bets with him. If it is still in process, he needs to post the legal filings that would indicate that something is in the works. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EagleArmsHBAR: Originally Posted By jtb33: So, has this pretty much petered out now? I think Ben was pretty upfront with the fact that this wouldn’t be a quick thing. |
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USA
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Posted: 11/15/2023 1:06:18 PM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ben: I'm actually not. I completed a political philosophy degree as part of a law track program, then went back on active duty. After active duty I became a federal criminal investigator for a tiny organization most folks have never heard of. So I have a bit of experience with the system from the other side. The tiny organization hasn't purged you like the FBI would have by now? Have they even tried? |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 2:52:27 PM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fox2008: I think Ben was pretty upfront with the fact that this wouldn't be a quick thing. |
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MT, USA
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Posted: 11/15/2023 5:49:40 PM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jtb33: Sure... but ~1 year... should there be filings or something tangible at this point? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jtb33: Originally Posted By fox2008: I think Ben was pretty upfront with the fact that this wouldn't be a quick thing. Why's that? Ducks in a row - plus give the man some time to actually get retired and set up in Montana. 
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Posted: 11/15/2023 6:32:11 PM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Third_Rail: Why's that? Ducks in a row - plus give the man some time to actually get retired and set up in Montana. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Third_Rail: Originally Posted By jtb33: Originally Posted By fox2008: I think Ben was pretty upfront with the fact that this wouldn't be a quick thing. Why's that? Ducks in a row - plus give the man some time to actually get retired and set up in Montana. |
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TUN
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Posted: 11/15/2023 7:07:57 PM EST
[#32]
I am rooting for you.
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TUN
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Posted: 11/15/2023 7:11:34 PM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jtb33: Sure... but ~1 year... should there be filings or something tangible at this point? |
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Posted: 11/15/2023 9:11:34 PM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fla556guy: 1 year in legal terms is fassssst Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fla556guy: Originally Posted By jtb33: Sure... but ~1 year... should there be filings or something tangible at this point? Perhaps he did do that, and his attorneys had something come up that necessitated changing the vector of attack... or life came at him and he had to postpone his plans... but he hasn't chimed in on this since July despite posting in other threads, and hasn't really provided any news on plans since he created the thread. Maybe his attorneys have seen all the recent 2A cases moving rather quickly and feel that it's best to let them play out first. Was just hoping for an update, is all...  |
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Posted: 11/17/2023 9:13:55 AM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By steviesterno16: @ben I'll chip in $1k if you get me the ability to legally register a full auto, or buy one OTC |
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Posted: 11/17/2023 11:48:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: Ben]
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jtb33: You missed my point. If he's got to do behind the scenes work, whether that's 1 year, 2 years, 5 years - whatever - preparing and getting the proverbial ducks in a row; get all that done before you make a thread like this to drum up excitement. Perhaps he did do that, and his attorneys had something come up that necessitated changing the vector of attack... or life came at him and he had to postpone his plans... but he hasn't chimed in on this since July despite posting in other threads, and hasn't really provided any news on plans since he created the thread. Maybe his attorneys have seen all the recent 2A cases moving rather quickly and feel that it's best to let them play out first. Was just hoping for an update, is all... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jtb33: Originally Posted By fla556guy: Originally Posted By jtb33: Sure... but ~1 year... should there be filings or something tangible at this point? Perhaps he did do that, and his attorneys had something come up that necessitated changing the vector of attack... or life came at him and he had to postpone his plans... but he hasn't chimed in on this since July despite posting in other threads, and hasn't really provided any news on plans since he created the thread. Maybe his attorneys have seen all the recent 2A cases moving rather quickly and feel that it's best to let them play out first. Was just hoping for an update, is all... I have been in and out of the hospital several (read many) times in the last few months and am dealing with a health issue from a line of duty injury, along with the 2nd and 3rd order effects of that injury, before I move forward on this. I apologize, I thought I'd posted that- things are on hold while I try to focus on this alligator that has already climbed into the boat. I still have several projects going on at once that we're already fully in motion, but I don't have the bandwidth to add another until probably early to mid spring. Ah- I posted it in the GD thread here. Sorry for not posting it both places. |
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Posted: 11/17/2023 12:26:53 PM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ben: I have been in and out of the hospital several (read many) times in the last few months and am dealing with a health issue from a line of duty injury, along with the 2nd and 3rd order effects of that injury, before I move forward on this. I apologize, I thought I'd posted that- things are on hold while I try to focus on this alligator that has already climbed into the boat. I still have several projects going on at once that we're already fully in motion, but I don't have the bandwidth to add another until probably early to mid spring. Ah- I posted it in the GD thread here. Sorry for not posting it both places. |
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Posted: 12/5/2023 10:37:11 PM EST
[#38]
I don't want to derail the thread. But a lot of the people that are saying this could never happen, may or may not have said at one point "Roe v Wade will never get overturned".
Never say never. Good luck OP! I put $50 in the Nolo fund when he tried it. I'd put $50 in your fund if you get the ball rolling in the spring. |
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MP, USA
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Posted: 12/5/2023 11:52:41 PM EST
[#39]
So, does this have anything to do with you, OP?
https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.ca8.107299/gov.uscourts.ca8.107299.804855879.0.pdf |
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Posted: 12/6/2023 10:13:41 AM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JoshNC: So, does this have anything to do with you, OP? https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.ca8.107299/gov.uscourts.ca8.107299.804855879.0.pdf That looks like disorganized drivel, to put it nicely. And predictably was shot down. No. Not me. |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 2/23/2024 8:48:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: JKH62]
[#41]
I hope you prevail.
My PKM / M84 build would be a LOT easier and fun using a form 1. Even a 2nd amnesty would be a step in the right direction. |
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Posted: 2/23/2024 9:17:09 PM EST
[#42]
I got a case of the sads when I saw FPNI was Pete
 Let’s do it for him. And me. My bet still stands. $1k at the BBQ table, |
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Posted: 3/1/2024 10:10:18 AM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JKH62: I hope you prevail. My PKM / M84 build would be a LOT easier and fun using a form 1. Even a 2nd amnesty would be a step in the right direction. An amnesty would be easy and not require a law change |
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Posted: 3/1/2024 3:51:32 PM EST
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By whiskerz: An amnesty would be easy and not require a law change 922(o) was passed after the GCA, so an NFA registration amnesty might not apply to machine guns, since 922(o) doesn't also list an amnesty exception. |
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Posted: 3/12/2024 11:43:03 AM EST
[#45]
Was that you that the armed attorneys on YouTube just did a video about?
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Posted: 3/13/2024 5:33:54 PM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blk99sleekbeak: Was that you that the armed attorneys on YouTube just did a video about? This one? I was thinking the same thing.  New ATF Case Specifically Targets Machine Guns: This is the Case to Watch |
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Posted: 3/13/2024 6:26:58 PM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blk99sleekbeak: Was that you that the armed attorneys on YouTube just did a video about? No, that's a different case. |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 3/14/2024 4:20:04 PM EST
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By whiskerz: An amnesty would be easy and not require a law change Yep. By many accounts the registry is not accurate or screwed up. Having another amnesty to correct the registry should be possible since its happened once already. |
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Posted: 3/14/2024 4:31:12 PM EST
[#49]
Ben's doing the Lords work.
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Posted: 3/15/2024 6:59:31 AM EST
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JKH62: Yep. By many accounts the registry is not accurate or screwed up. Having another amnesty to correct the registry should be possible since its happened once already. I've heard a rumor that many of the registered arms in NFA are of people who would be >100 years old. The only thing is a proper fix probably wouldn't be in the form of an amnesty - it would be - We better up the tax to $2K to pay for annual audits and checks on owners and seize them up on owners death. |
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