User Panel
Posted: 9/17/2010 5:08:19 AM EDT
Disclaimer: I am rather new to the M16 platform so humor me if these are basic questions.
I have found an original all Colt M16A1 in good+ shape for what seems to be a good price. It has the original upper with the triangular handguards. Seems the going price for these things is right around $14K? Is that still the norm? Big hole vs small hole - I believe this one has the large hole for the takedown pin. In order to run other uppers, is there a proven method to allow the small hole uppers to run on these lowers with no damage and no permanent modification? |
|
I have seen several Colt M16A1s in good (but not minty) condition sell lately in the $12.5-13k range. For $14k, it had better be 99% and all original.
And no factory Colt full-autos (AR15s, M16/A1/A2 had the large takedown pin holes. If the one you are looking at does, there is something seriously wrong here. |
|
Quoted:
(snip) http://www.autoweapons.com/photos06/oct/1487m16cb.jpg This one is a "Registered Receiver" M16 machine gun that was built using a Colt Sporter Carbine; bear in mind that this is NOT a factory weapon, this was once a semi only carbine that was registered, then the conversion done to it, perhaps using original colt parts, but it never came as a full auto weapon from the factory. And since you're new to M16s, JSG, in case you don't know ... a converted SP1 is worth at least $3k less than a factory M16. |
|
Thanks for the responses. I have not seen it or pictures yet. That should get cleared-up next week. I have not been told it has the large hole by the owner, I will get this clear next week as well.
He is asking $12500 and I am thinking $12K even but I have to go see it first. I know he paid $14K for it about a year ago. I got the current $14K number from http://www.machinegunpriceguide.com/html/us_mg_4.html and looking at subguns and sturmgewehr. I need to keep from getting too exicted about it. I rarely hear of one in state for sale but Knob Creek is coming in a few short weeks and that could be a big buying opportunity I guess. Any more information/suggestions is/are appreciated. |
|
Quoted:
Thanks for the responses. I have not seen it or pictures yet. That should get cleared-up next week. I have not been told it has the large hole by the owner, I will get this clear next week as well. He is asking $12500 and I am thinking $12K even but I have to go see it first. I know he paid $14K for it about a year ago. I got the current $14K number from http://www.machinegunpriceguide.com/html/us_mg_4.html and looking at subguns and sturmgewehr. I need to keep from getting too exicted about it. I rarely hear of one in state for sale but Knob Creek is coming in a few short weeks and that could be a big buying opportunity I guess. Any more information/suggestions is/are appreciated. The price guide is a great tool, but the MG market continues to drop, and that chart was last updated in July ... since then, there have been quite a few popping up in the $12.5-13k range on the boards. They do sell quickly at that price, tho. So $12-12.5k is a pretty good price, if all is correct. |
|
How about this one? I was getting very close to bidding, now wish I had. It went from low $8k to final price in an hour or so.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=189348439 |
|
Quoted:
How about this one? I was getting very close to bidding, now wish I had. It went from low $8k to final price in an hour or so. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=189348439 In today's market, I wouldn't have bid over $8.5k for it. Here's why: The ad states that it is an H&R that has been refinished. Now, H&Rs are more rare than other transferable factory M16s like Colts, because H&R never sold to non-military govt agencies or to LE. I doubt there are more than 20 original, intact H&R M16s ... prolly more like 10. They are museum pieces. However, there are prolly a hundred rewelded demils on the Registry. And a reweld has the lowest market value of all transferable M16s or registered-receiver conversions. Rewelds are receivers that the U.S. government demilled by torch-cutting into two pieces in the late '70s/early '80s. They sold them by the 55-gal barrel full as scrap aluminum. Enterprising 02/02 FFL/SOT manufacturers bought up barrels full, sorted through until they found a long front half and a long rear half, trimmed them to meet, and welded them together, remarking and refinishing the results. The problems with rewelds are many: In the first place, the front and rear halves are from different guns (sometimes, even different manufacturers). Second, you do not know the quality of the welding work, and a less-than-expertly welded-up aluminum receiver is not good. Finally, even a perfectly welded receiver is never as strong as an uncut one. Receivers are forged under pressure to align the grain of the metal; cutting with a torch, then rewelding, creates a structure of uneven strength. A reweld will crack or break much more easily than an intact uncut original. BTW, this is from a conversation with John Norrell, who did some of the very best rewelds back in the day –– he took the time to explain to me why a reweld can never equal an original. The fact that the auction item was not billed as an uncut original, which would increase its value tremendously and the fact that it had been refinished, indicates a high likelihood that it is a reweld. And rewelds are not worth even $9k. Also FWIW, I have dealt with the seller in the past, and he's a good guy. The pointof an auction, however, is not to get a fair or market value –– it is designed to generate the most income the market will bear. And at an auction, all it takes is for two bidders to want the same item, regardless of its market value. That's my take; YMMV. |
|
So to judge future buys, here is what I did and would like to know what to look for in the future:
I spoke to the seller, I know his reputation, figured it was legit non reweld since he said there no SOT markings on the gun or the paperwork. However, I have heard ATF was much more liberal in marking locations and they could be under the grip out of sight. Is this true? He also mentioned there was no evidence of reweld. However working against it are the pictures which are lousy at best. Not to mention the refinish. End of day, there seemed to be a lot of interest and several active buyers, I assumed it was fair market value with too many unknowns, skipped bidding. |
|
Yep- I just transferred an M16 that was a reweld and the real manufacturer's marks were on the grip attachment area and not visible unless you took the pistol grip off.
You have to watch out for these- the odds are it's a reweld. When this particular rifle came in, the paperwork listed the original source of the scrap parts under manufacturer. When it went out, the correct info was on the paperwork. The new owner was not pleased, but I'm not submitting paperwork with incorrect info on it. |
|
If one was to strip down the reciever and find no manufactures markings would it be safe to assume it is not a reweld? Is a xray or Freedom of information act the only way to really tell if one has a reweld?
|
|
Quoted:
If one was to strip down the reciever and find no manufactures markings would it be safe to assume it is not a reweld? Is a xray or Freedom of information act the only way to really tell if one has a reweld? An X-ray is the only way to tell. Back before the cutoff date (May 19, 1986), there were no printed rules for engraving (other than it had to be marked). It could be anywhere –– on the rear spur of the frame, on the flat area covered by the pistol grip was a popular spot. In addition, at the time it was legal, and common, to do the markings lightly with a vibrapen... and those can, and often are, lost in a refinish. I would not even trust a Freedom of Information Act report. The NFA Branch staff back then was notoriously inept, and many makers and manufacturers weren't all that good at filling out the loosely-enforced paperwork requirements. I've seen Colt SP1 conversions where the paperwork entering them into the NFA Registry was a Form 1 listing Colt as the manufacturer. ?!? Colt was an 07/02 and would have filed a Form 2, right? Then you run the serial number through Colt and find out it was manufactured by them months prior to the date on the Form 1. And so what happened was, an individual bought an SP1, then filed a Form 1 on it, and listed Colt as the maker, either through ignorance or intent ... and the NFA Branch just entered it in the NFA Registry exactly like he put it on the form. As far as rewelds, most were made by folks who knew how to fill out a Form 2 ... but again, the data-entry folks back then weren't the sharpest. They did probably get the dates right, but who knows? When you're talking a difference of $3,000 or more, I would make friends with a dentist or veterinarian and x-ray it. Or stick to guns with known histories and verifiably original finish, because you can't do a reweld and have an original finish. |
|
Tony:
Was there a particular place they were usually welded together? |
|
Quoted:
Tony: Was there a particular place they were usually welded together? Depends on where they were cut. I asked the seller who was listed on the form, he said it was H&R. But like stated above, people could list any number of things on the paper work, even if it wasn't quite true. I missed watching the end of that auction, I would have been interseted at $9k or so, but someone must think its not a reweld. Everything to me says reweld, and I'd put money on that if someone x-rayed it. Oh well. Buyers beware. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Tony: Was there a particular place they were usually welded together? Depends on where they were cut. +1. Back in those days, ATF and .gov did not have specific rules for demilling .gov-owned MGs. All that was needed was to cut it in two with a torch. The duty usually went to the low GI on the totem pole –– they just handed him a torch and said, "Cut 'em in two." His work was over when they were done, so it was not done with any precision. I've seen 'em cut through the magwell, through the trigger area, diagaonally across the receiver, even laterally (top and bottom pieces). Today, ATF requires that to be considered demilled, a receiver must be cut in specific places –– each MG design has an ATF instruction sheet, but in most cases in ends up being three equal pieces. And then the center section must be destroyed –– possession of all three pieces still constitutes a illegal, unregistered machine gun. Doesn't matter for U.S.military guns, though –– today, rather than being cut, by official .gov policy all surplus MG receivers must be fed into a shredder that reduces them to fragments less than an inch in diameter. |
|
I just spoke with my best friend who is a dentist and he says his machine is not made to take more than 3inch by 3inch xrays. I guess I will have to make friends with a DR.
|
|
Quoted:
I just spoke with my best friend who is a dentist and he says his machine is not made to take more than 3inch by 3inch xrays. I guess I will have to make friends with a DR. Did you win the one on gunbroker we were looking at??? |
|
|
Quoted:
No. I bought a 5,35x,xxx us property marked m16 about 8 months ago and I should have it in my hands by the end of the month. http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c178/emrisg/M-16pics002.jpg Gottca. Who is listed on your form as the manf? Do you think it might be a reweld? Or do you know its a reweld? |
|
Seems my thread took a detour but good information just the same.
I have pictures now and will post some this evening. In the mean time, could someone explain how to tell it is an obvious factory finish? |
|
|
What would it do to the value of an H&R or GM or Colt gun that has been refinished, and was assumed a reweld, but
a clear xray was made and no evidence of being a reweld is present? |
|
Quoted:
Seems my thread took a detour but good information just the same. I have pictures now and will post some this evening. In the mean time, could someone explain how to tell it is an obvious factory finish? Post some photos. That is the best way. Colt's finish is something that I've never seen anyone be able to redo. US Anno is about the closest, but usually it'll look factory fresh, and that would lead you to think unless it has sat in a safe for the last 20 years, it was refinished. Get some photos up. That would be the best way for us to be able to at least give you a guess. Do you have a photo of the FCG? |
|
Quoted:
Seems my thread took a detour but good information just the same. I have pictures now and will post some this evening. In the mean time, could someone explain how to tell it is an obvious factory finish? There is no simple answer. Determining originality of factory finish depends on: –– Color, which is determined by when it was built, which in turn can often be indicated by serial number. Earlier guns are a lighter gray, and that gray became progressively darker through the '70s and '80s. However, this also can be affected by use, wear, and frequency of oiling ... the gray does darken over time, and not necessarily in a predictable manner. One hint: There are no transferable black-finish factory Colts. Black did not become the Colt color until after May 19, 1986, the cutoff for transferables. –– Texture, which I do not think I can describe adequately, other than to say I know it when I see it. I have never seen a refinish with the exact surface texture of a factory gun. –– Hardness/softness, which is a particular clue with molycoat-based refinishes. Moly is actually the finish most likely to come close to duplicating the color and texture of factory gray anodizing ... but it is softer, and lacks the crisp hardness of anodizing. I check this by picking an out-of-the-way spot –– usually the receiver tang under the pistol grip –– and taking my thumbnail and pressing hard. Moly will "give" (and sometimes, be permanently marked) ... while anodizing will be like pressing a rock: Zero give, zero impression. As others have noted, while Victor at US Anodizing is an artist (and IMHO re-anodizing is the refinish of choice) ... there is just enough difference in both color and texture to tell it immediately from a factory Colt finish. (Sometimes, it's better than Colt's ... but that's another thread.) So show us the pix. That's a start. |
|
Tony K - Would you refinish the gun I posted pics of in this thread. It has been used and has some finish missing and also has the rack number scratched on the front of the mag well.
|
|
Quoted:
Tony K - Would you refinish the gun I posted pics of in this thread. It has been used and has some finish missing and also has the rack number scratched on the front of the mag well. No, I would not. The rack number is part of its history, and the wear only shows that it has done its duty. IMHO, the only time you should refinish a factory Colt is when the remaining finish gets down to well under 50%. I mean, it's a tool, right? If you want a safe queen, buy one ... if you are going to be shooting it, treat it well, but wear is inevitable. Don't get me wrong –– when you own a gun, you own it. You can gold-plate it it you want. But there are not that many transferable Colts out there, and every one that gets refinished loses a part of its history. It goes down in value, and thus the others go up. I look to other valuable, important firearms ... like Lugers and Colt Single-Action Armys. I started shooting at a time when many owners refinished them routinely ... and I've lived long enough to see those folks regret it, because it cut the value in half, or worse, compared to an "unrestored" example. Yeah, we all say, "I'm gonna keep this 'til I die, so screw it: I want it to look the way I want it." But life throws challenges at us .... and you never see them coming. When a decade later, your five-year-old daughter needs a liver transplant and you're trying to sell crap to pay for it, you learn the consequences of self-centered decisions. Just sayin' .... and remember, once refinished, you cannot "undo" that action. YMMV. |
|
BTW, looking again at the pix of yours ... it is nicer than many factory Colts, even with the nicks and rack number. Seriously, I would not refinish it. Maybe your great-great-grandkids might need to.
|
|
From what I can see in the pix, generally it looks pretty good. The color and texture appear to be correct. Only thing I notice is that it doesn't have the dab of black paint behind the bolt hold-open rollpin, which Colt put on 90% of the uppers because of a scratch there during assembly ... but this one may have been one of the few that Colt managed to assemble without getting a scratch, and thus no paint dab.
If those are the original internals, the wear is consistent with an M16 which has seen no more than 2-3k rounds since new. If you can get it for $12k, go for it. Even $12.5k is not out of market range. |
|
Quoted:
Tony K - Would you refinish the gun I posted pics of in this thread. It has been used and has some finish missing and also has the rack number scratched on the front of the mag well. And on yours, heck no, I wouldn't refinish it. You have a .gov marked M16A1 that you know isn't a reweld? If you refinish it, you will drop the value on it. I mean, like tony said, its your gun, so do as you want, but its in fine condition. Shoot it, and enjoy. |
|
Thanks for the input. I will pursue this further with the owner and see if we can agree on the price after actually seeing it first hand.
Curious question... I assume a few thousand rounds is not a high count for a M16? If properly maintained, what is the life expectancy of a receiver? |
|
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.