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Posted: 10/15/2013 6:02:14 PM EDT
The L.E. agency I work for has M-16 rifles from the military.
The rifles we have are new and were in original Colt packaging, dated 1976 and 1977.
Most of us who are authorized to carry them, put the collapsible stocks on them.  I did the same.
I never fired the rifle until I put the stock on.  Everyone else's rifles functioned perfectly.  Mine wouldn't fire more than one round in full auto.  Semi works fine on every round!
On automatic it will fire one round and feed a second round in, which doesn't fire.  I eject that round and there is a small firing pin dimple on the primer.  Every time.  
I have tried a variety of different springs, and different weight buffers, but the result is the same.  Always an unfired, dimpled second round.  I have tried different ammo as well.  
I swapped bolt carrier units from another gun and the rifle began to fire full auto, most of the time.  Sometimes it does the same thing.  
I was at the range the other day and it began to misfire more frequently.  Five or six times in a very short period of time.  Some auto, then misfire.  Some auto, then misfire.  Each misfire with a small firing pin dimple.
The only thing I haven't done is put the M-16 stock, tube, weight and spring back on to see if it functions correctly.  
I should also mention that the gun and bolt carrier unit is clean.  No dirty/carbon causing these issues.  

My conclusion is: When the bolt is coming forward and is locking up, the firing pin is being thrown forward against the primer (just light enough that the round isn't able to fire).  This is happening at exactly the same moment as the hammer is attempting to strike the firing pin.  The pin is forward enough that the hammer isn't hitting it.

Any thoughts?  Anyone had this problem?  Any ideas on how to fix it?

Thanks for any input!
Chad
Link Posted: 10/15/2013 5:42:25 PM EDT
[#1]
What kind of collapsible stock? Rifle length tube? Are you still running a rifle-length upper?
Link Posted: 10/15/2013 5:45:50 PM EDT
[#2]
Maybe change out the firing pin?
Link Posted: 10/15/2013 5:51:47 PM EDT
[#3]
Pics.....
Link Posted: 10/15/2013 5:55:40 PM EDT
[#4]
Hard to diagnose but if the gun fires fine on semi my first thought would be an issue with the auto sear.  It sounds like it's not delaying th fall of the hammer. Could also be bolt bounce.
Link Posted: 10/15/2013 5:56:34 PM EDT
[#5]
Its bolt bounce. You need a heavier buffer and or spring. Some guns take alot, especially SBRs
This needs to be in the M16 forum so you dont get the retarded replys.





Also did it work with the original stock




ETA put the old stock on





BTW why did you put  car stock on a m16 and trying to get it in F/A as a LEO???






 
Link Posted: 10/15/2013 5:59:19 PM EDT
[#6]
What length gas system upper?

You said you changed the buffer what buffer did you install?

Also there is a dedicated M16 section here might want to ask in there.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/f_6/23_M_16.html
Link Posted: 10/15/2013 6:18:24 PM EDT
[#7]
I had a problem like this on my M16.  I did a bit more to mine though than you did (different upper, buffer tube, H/H2/H3 buffer combos, sprinco springs).  Couldn't get it to work no matter what I did really and was occasionally getting the light primer strikes.  The weird thing was that it worked flawlessly with my suppressor on it.  I ended up concluding that it was undergassed and since the upper had been cut down by ADCO with no gas work, that made sense.

Sure enough, I threw a factory Noveske upper on it and it works flawlessly, both suppressed and unsuppressed.

Now, all that being said, I'm not sure that's relevant.  It certainly seems possible to me, however, that you could have a gas issue.


Here's what I suggest.  If all of your department's rifles are configured the same way now (collapsible stocks), grab one that works and swap the uppers, the springs, and the buffers.  Then test fire that lower.  If it runs, swap the spring/buffer that's in the rifle now back into the system and re-fire.  If that works, your problem is probably the upper.  Swap some parts around and test the upper with parts you know that work, maybe even on the other lower.  If it doesn't work, you know its the upper.  If none of it works, even with the new parts, you know you have an issue in the lower, which could be a weak hammer spring, etc.

Report back.
Link Posted: 10/15/2013 6:52:38 PM EDT
[#8]
the dimple on the 2nd round is always there even on an AR15.  So forget that part
Link Posted: 10/15/2013 7:16:52 PM EDT
[#9]
I feel like an idiot.  Everything I described, I forgot to say each of us replaced the stock M-16 A2 uppers with our own uppers.  Our sheriff has allowed us to do this.  I have a 16" barrel with a mid length gas system.  
It's a SWAT entry gun.  Shorter barrel and telescoping stock for this purpose.  
As I stated, I replaced the buffer with several different of different weights.  The one in it now is 5.0 oz.  My goal was to slow the rate of fire down to see if that made any difference.

Chad
Link Posted: 10/15/2013 7:19:55 PM EDT
[#10]
The auto sear and trigger group seem to be fine, but I could swap everything out with a spare gun in our armory.  I'll give that a try if I don't get other ideas from the forum.
Thanks to everyone so far!
Chad
Link Posted: 10/15/2013 7:23:14 PM EDT
[#11]
Post a photo of the underside of the bolt carrier in your upper you installed.

Wes
Link Posted: 10/15/2013 7:25:36 PM EDT
[#12]
As stated earlier, this is a SWAT entry weapon.  My 16" upper with a mid length gas system is the upper.  Del-Ton flat top.  

Before I was issued the M-16, my AR-15 had a Colt A2 upper.  I swapped it with the Del-Ton A3.  It functioned flawlessly, but of course I didn't have full auto.
Link Posted: 10/15/2013 7:27:34 PM EDT
[#13]
I can do that tomorrow.
Link Posted: 10/15/2013 8:28:09 PM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Its bolt bounce. You need a heavier buffer and or spring. Some guns take alot, especially SBRs

This needs to be in the M16 forum so you dont get the retarded replys.

Also did it work with the original stock


ETA put the old stock on


BTW why did you put  car stock on a m16 and trying to get it in F/A as a LEO???
 
View Quote


It's bolt bounce. Hammer is falling as your bolt is bouncing out of battery causing the hammer to either strike the bolt carrier or simply ride the bolt carrier into battery. I had same problem...heavier buffer fixed it.
Link Posted: 10/15/2013 8:35:33 PM EDT
[#15]
Sounds like bolt bounce.  Go to a heavier buffer.
Link Posted: 10/16/2013 7:55:04 AM EDT
[#16]
Who makes a heavier buffer than a 5.0 oz?
Link Posted: 10/16/2013 8:32:47 AM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Post a photo of the underside of the bolt carrier in your upper you installed.

Wes
View Quote

Wes brings up a good point make sure the upper is a M16 upper ie has the sear relief cut out.  Here is a picture for you to see what we are talking about.
Link Posted: 10/16/2013 8:56:55 AM EDT
[#18]
Link Posted: 10/16/2013 2:16:46 PM EDT
[#19]
It does have the cut.

Wouldn't a stronger buffer spring help to stop bolt bounce?
Link Posted: 10/16/2013 2:24:04 PM EDT
[#20]
Thanks for the info.
I swapped the barrel into the stripped Del-Ton upper.  I wouldn't think the actual upper would be the cause, but the barrel and gas system would be.  Am I on the right track?
Like you, I've been a little ticked off with weapon not functioning in auto.  I'm safe with this gun on semi.  It has never malfunctioned or misfired on semi with this configuration.  
It may be time for a new complete upper.  

Someone was asking for pics of the rifle and the bolt.  I have those but can't figure out how to post them, as I rarely post to AR15.com.

Thank you,
Chad
Link Posted: 10/16/2013 5:49:09 PM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Thanks for the info.
I swapped the barrel into the stripped Del-Ton upper.  I wouldn't think the actual upper would be the cause, but the barrel and gas system would be.  Am I on the right track?
Like you, I've been a little ticked off with weapon not functioning in auto.  I'm safe with this gun on semi.  It has never malfunctioned or misfired on semi with this configuration.  
It may be time for a new complete upper.  

Someone was asking for pics of the rifle and the bolt.  I have those but can't figure out how to post them, as I rarely post to AR15.com.

Thank you,
Chad
View Quote


You need to host the photos on a website like photobucket then use the "img" type tags before and after the hosted website link to get them to show up, just make sure you put a "/img" inside the brackets on the end of the link.

In particular, I'm curious to know if you have an M16 type bolt in your upper since you purchased a separate upper assembly to put on an existing M16 lower receiver.




Without the right carrier, the system doesn't function properly.

And just to make sure we are all on the same page:
1) You had a complete M16 in A1 configuration issued to you through your LE agency(I'm assuming it was part of the DRMO/DRMS programs that allow the US military to "loan" retired M16's to local LE agencies)  If they were legit new in the box M16's from the 1976/1977 years that your agnecy purchased back in the day and stored, those guns can be transferred to private citizens through an FFL and your agency could get $8,000 or more for each rifle.  If that's the case, you need to have a serious conversation with your Chief as your agency can purchase brand new M4's from colt for under $800, full auto and all, then sell the 1976/77 guns for a major chunk of money.
2) You or someone at your agency test fired the M16 in it's A1 configuration and confirmed it fully functioned....and confirmed that it has a full auto trigger group, not a semi only trigger group or a three shot burst trigger group.
It should have an auto sear as pictured here:


2B) You swapped the stock out....Did you change the buffer and buffer spring at the same time?
3) You purchased a complete 16" upper receiver with barrel, gas block, bolt carrier and bolt that was built by Delton....Or did you build your own upper with parts from various sources? It kind of reads like you bought a flat top upper and swapped the original barrel over to the flat upper.  Did you also reuse all of the other M16 parts from the original upper?
4) You removed the A1 upper from your M16 and didn't change anything else with the lower receiver, including the stock, buffer and buffer spring
5) You installed your new upper from #3
6) You went to the range and it shot fine in Semi Auto
7) You flipped the selector all the way to full auto and it continued to function as a semi auto.

Please fill us in on any misunderstandings of the above.

Assuming the above list is right, can you please explain what you get when you function check in full auto using the charging handle with the gun empty?  While keeping your finger pulled back on the trigger, you should be able to hear the hammer fall back onto the firing pin once the bolt carrier is all the way forward and the bolt is in lock.

If the gun function checks, then without a doubt gas issues should be looked at.

Wes
Link Posted: 10/16/2013 5:55:31 PM EDT
[#22]
I tried to use brackets [ ] around "img" in the post above when explaining how to post images and it screwed my post all up.  I've cleaned it up and wanted to update incase the OP viewed the thread while I was sorting the issue out.

Wes
Link Posted: 10/17/2013 5:41:45 AM EDT
[#23]
They are 1033 guns (DRMO) and it is our understanding they are basically on permanent loan from the military, as are the 3 HMMWVs we received.  The can not be sold.  
We have 6 M-16 rifles that were received in the mid 90's and those 6 were made semi-auto only.  The full auto trigger group was replaced with a semi-auto only trigger group.  
We have 12 M-16 rifles we received in the past 2 years.  All were new, never fired by the military.  They are automatic, not burst guns.  We test fired 2 of them.  They functioned perfectly.  
My particular gun was not test fired, but the funciton check was good.  The auto hammer, disconnector, selector, auto sear, auto bolt carrier, etc are in the gun.  
My AR-15 (I've had since 1994) is a Colt lower.  A friend built the upper before the '94 Clinton ban, and I don't know the manufacturer of the barrel.  I purchased the lower from a gun show, as all lower receivers sold out before the ban went into place.
The AR-15 has never given me any problems.  A couple of years ago, I swapped the A2 upper for a Del-Ton flat top upper.  My barrel was swapped into the stripped Del-Ton upper (for mounting of optic).  No problems in this configuration.  
M-16: I removed the receiver extension and replaced it with my carbine receiver extension.  Carbine buffer and spring was swapped also.  M-16 bolt carrier used.  
I replaced the M-16 lower and shorter tube onto my AR-15 upper, with 16" barrel.  
Semi: fires every time.  
Auto: 1 shot.  Fresh round would feed and was unfired.  
I swapped in a H2 buffer and spring from another guy's rifle (carbine) and it seemed to fire in auto mode.  I didn't fire more than a couple of bursts.  
I later swapped in several different springs and buffers.  No change.  1 shot only.  Occasionally I'd get 2 - 4 rounds.  Then 1 shot.  
I put in a 5.0 oz buffer and a flat wire spring.  (This is what a co-worker had and seemed to function the best in my gun when swapped).  Still not reliable in auto.
I swapped out the auto bolt and carrier from another M-16 and it seemed to work with the flat wire spring and extra heavy buffer.  I thought the problem was fixed.
The other day, the problem came back.  Burst then malfunction.  Fresh, unfired round in the chamber.  Burst then malfunction.  Burst then malfunction.  

From what I'm being told, there is probably too much pressure, causing bolt bounce.  Why would my upper be allowing too much gas prssure?  It is a mid length gas system in my 16" barrel?

That's my issue.  Adjustable gas system?  Different barrel?  Stronger buffer spring?

Chad
Link Posted: 10/17/2013 7:53:09 AM EDT
[#24]
Delete
Link Posted: 10/17/2013 9:59:53 AM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Snip
View Quote

ETA: Comment quoted above was deleted by moderator.


Link Posted: 10/17/2013 7:03:09 PM EDT
[#26]
Chad,
Reading your post it sounds like this is your configuration:

16" barrel
Mid Length gas system
Delton Flat top upper
M16 Bolt Carrier from the original M16 you were issued
M16 lower with full auto M16 trigger group
Multi position carbine length stock
Flat wire buffer spring, not a milspec Carbine buffer spring
Carbine buffer
Unknown bolt
Unknown firing pin
Unknown gas block

What jumps out at me is that you have quite a mix of parts, but even still, the most questionable issue is the Mid length gas system.  I don't have data on the right size gas port for a mid length system, maybe someone else here does though.

I'd go back to a carbine buffer and spring, toss on a coworker's functioning upper and see what you get.

Assuming that your coworker's upper with a carbine buffer and spring function properly, your best bet will probably be a new barrel rather than trying to sort out the perfect match of buffer and spring to make your system run without issue.

Wes
Link Posted: 10/18/2013 5:16:08 AM EDT
[#27]
That's pretty close
It is the M16 bolt, bolt carrier and firing pin.
I don't know the make of the gas block.  
All of my co-workers with an issued M16, swapped the M16 lower (same as me) with their 16" upper.  Some Colt, some Bushmaster.  
Nobody seems to have any issues in full auto.  
The reason I have a flat wire spring and heavy buffer is because I did swap a co-worker's flat wire spring and heavy buffer into mine.  A couple of bursts in full auto (about a magazine worth) and it seemed to work.  I didn't test it for a long period of time.  
As I stated before, it doesn't function in full auto, consistantly.  
I will probably try an adjustable gas block first.
Chad
Link Posted: 10/18/2013 10:32:04 AM EDT
[#28]
Definitely seems to be a gas issue.

I'll be the one to say this since no one else has.  Why on earth would you run or consider running that upper on your duty rifle?  You've already had numerous issues with it in this configuration; I can't imagine you having confidence to take it into a fight if you had to.  I definitely wouldn't.  And not to throw more fuel on the fire, but DelTon isn't exactly high quality equipment, certainly not something I'd throw on a semi duty rifle, let alone a FA duty rifle.

This is not an attempt to shit on your equipment.  But In my opinion, you are much better advised to skip trying to "fix" that upper by putting a gas block on it, etc.  Go out and buy yourself a high quality upper, be it a BCM, a Colt, or a DD and have the confidence that the damn thing is going to go bang or bang-bang-bang-bang when you need it o and your life is in the balance.  Put the delton back on your semi lower.

My $.02; take It for what it's worth.
Link Posted: 10/18/2013 10:50:11 AM EDT
[#29]
Ok.  thanks.
Link Posted: 10/18/2013 1:04:26 PM EDT
[#30]
Link Posted: 10/18/2013 1:27:18 PM EDT
[#31]
I may have missed it, but you've run other uppers on your lower, and it runs.    Have you put your upper on another lower, and seen if it runs?

Also, copy the url form your pic host site, then there's a postacard of a mountain in the reply screen here, click that.
Link Posted: 10/18/2013 2:34:56 PM EDT
[#32]
I get what you are saying about Del-Ton.  I had several people vouch for their stuff.  I purchased a stripped upper.  I transferred my barrel, etc. to the upper.  What would Del-Ton or any other upper have to do with this being a gas issue?
It would be the barrel, gas block, gas tube, bolt carrier, etc.  
I see no reason that this patrticular stripped receiver would have anything to do with the gas system.
???
Link Posted: 10/18/2013 2:38:36 PM EDT
[#33]
An upper on it's own shouldn't effect anything like what you have going on.
If you were referencing my comments, by upper, I meant your entire upper barrelled assembly.

Link Posted: 10/18/2013 7:30:02 PM EDT
[#34]
As tony mentioned, tolerances are important.  The stripped upper alone likely won't give you any trouble.  Your real problem is probably the barrel/gas system, but it could be compounded by the other parts you combine with it.

Here's the deal.  You're combining a number of unknown parts into a configuration you're hoping is going to work.  It's not wise to create a hodgepodge upper like this for anything but range work.  As a duty rifle, its not particularly smart, particularly when your life or the lives of people you defend are in the balance and are relying on that weapon to function properly.  From every possible angle, I think you're playing with fire with it.

I'd even hesitate to create an upper myself out of quality, known parts and stick it on a rifle I intended to use on duty or to defend myself.  Factory builds just seem to me to be a smarter, more reliable solution.  

But again, do as you wish.  If you want to tinker with this setup, more power to you.  I think you're better served by listing the upper you have in the EE and getting what you can for it (a few hundred dollars).  Then look for a deal on a factory Colt, BCM, DD, LMT, etc., one of which may offer a LEO discount and make the new upper very affordable.  That really is my best suggestion.  You're going to spend more than a bit on messing with the gas system on this upper anyway; I think that money can be better spent.
Link Posted: 10/18/2013 9:17:09 PM EDT
[#35]
My M16 had issues like yours, even with a Colt Socom upper, turned out to be buffer problems. But in the meantime I replaced all the internals, tried different uppers, BCGs, etc...

Be as systematic as possible. But in the end, I suspect it's your upper. Be sure you have a fresh recoil spring and the proper buffer.

Some recommended the Vltor A5 system to me, I have one to try in case I have more issues, but so far my M16 is rocking and rolling even with my reloads. As it seems to be working I have also put in a Geissele full auto trigger set, and it is wonderful...
Link Posted: 10/21/2013 5:08:57 PM EDT
[#36]
OP....You probably understand but just to make sure...when people are asking "did you try an 'upper' from your corworkers guns that runs fine on your lower receiver assembly?" or they say "the problem is probably your 'upper'....", people are refering to the entire upper assembly, not the bare receiver.

Wes
Link Posted: 10/28/2013 12:27:31 PM EDT
[#37]
Update?
Link Posted: 10/30/2013 3:27:14 AM EDT
[#38]

Make sure the gas rings are not leaking gas.  The three gas rings should be offset from each other by 120 degrees at where they are split.  The other thing is if the gas rings are worn out, since this is a NIB gun that's probably not the issue.  But do keep it in mind for the future.
Link Posted: 11/8/2013 6:16:39 PM EDT
[#39]
Don't forget about LMT uppers. they run great in auto.
Link Posted: 11/12/2013 7:11:20 PM EDT
[#40]
Any updates?

Wes
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