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Posted: 10/15/2013 6:02:14 PM EDT
The L.E. agency I work for has M-16 rifles from the military.
The rifles we have are new and were in original Colt packaging, dated 1976 and 1977. Most of us who are authorized to carry them, put the collapsible stocks on them. I did the same. I never fired the rifle until I put the stock on. Everyone else's rifles functioned perfectly. Mine wouldn't fire more than one round in full auto. Semi works fine on every round! On automatic it will fire one round and feed a second round in, which doesn't fire. I eject that round and there is a small firing pin dimple on the primer. Every time. I have tried a variety of different springs, and different weight buffers, but the result is the same. Always an unfired, dimpled second round. I have tried different ammo as well. I swapped bolt carrier units from another gun and the rifle began to fire full auto, most of the time. Sometimes it does the same thing. I was at the range the other day and it began to misfire more frequently. Five or six times in a very short period of time. Some auto, then misfire. Some auto, then misfire. Each misfire with a small firing pin dimple. The only thing I haven't done is put the M-16 stock, tube, weight and spring back on to see if it functions correctly. I should also mention that the gun and bolt carrier unit is clean. No dirty/carbon causing these issues. My conclusion is: When the bolt is coming forward and is locking up, the firing pin is being thrown forward against the primer (just light enough that the round isn't able to fire). This is happening at exactly the same moment as the hammer is attempting to strike the firing pin. The pin is forward enough that the hammer isn't hitting it. Any thoughts? Anyone had this problem? Any ideas on how to fix it? Thanks for any input! Chad |
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What kind of collapsible stock? Rifle length tube? Are you still running a rifle-length upper?
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Hard to diagnose but if the gun fires fine on semi my first thought would be an issue with the auto sear. It sounds like it's not delaying th fall of the hammer. Could also be bolt bounce.
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Its bolt bounce. You need a heavier buffer and or spring. Some guns take alot, especially SBRs
This needs to be in the M16 forum so you dont get the retarded replys. Also did it work with the original stock ETA put the old stock on BTW why did you put car stock on a m16 and trying to get it in F/A as a LEO??? |
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What length gas system upper?
You said you changed the buffer what buffer did you install? Also there is a dedicated M16 section here might want to ask in there. http://www.ar15.com/forums/f_6/23_M_16.html |
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I had a problem like this on my M16. I did a bit more to mine though than you did (different upper, buffer tube, H/H2/H3 buffer combos, sprinco springs). Couldn't get it to work no matter what I did really and was occasionally getting the light primer strikes. The weird thing was that it worked flawlessly with my suppressor on it. I ended up concluding that it was undergassed and since the upper had been cut down by ADCO with no gas work, that made sense.
Sure enough, I threw a factory Noveske upper on it and it works flawlessly, both suppressed and unsuppressed. Now, all that being said, I'm not sure that's relevant. It certainly seems possible to me, however, that you could have a gas issue. Here's what I suggest. If all of your department's rifles are configured the same way now (collapsible stocks), grab one that works and swap the uppers, the springs, and the buffers. Then test fire that lower. If it runs, swap the spring/buffer that's in the rifle now back into the system and re-fire. If that works, your problem is probably the upper. Swap some parts around and test the upper with parts you know that work, maybe even on the other lower. If it doesn't work, you know its the upper. If none of it works, even with the new parts, you know you have an issue in the lower, which could be a weak hammer spring, etc. Report back. |
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the dimple on the 2nd round is always there even on an AR15. So forget that part
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I feel like an idiot. Everything I described, I forgot to say each of us replaced the stock M-16 A2 uppers with our own uppers. Our sheriff has allowed us to do this. I have a 16" barrel with a mid length gas system.
It's a SWAT entry gun. Shorter barrel and telescoping stock for this purpose. As I stated, I replaced the buffer with several different of different weights. The one in it now is 5.0 oz. My goal was to slow the rate of fire down to see if that made any difference. Chad |
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The auto sear and trigger group seem to be fine, but I could swap everything out with a spare gun in our armory. I'll give that a try if I don't get other ideas from the forum.
Thanks to everyone so far! Chad |
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Post a photo of the underside of the bolt carrier in your upper you installed.
Wes |
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As stated earlier, this is a SWAT entry weapon. My 16" upper with a mid length gas system is the upper. Del-Ton flat top.
Before I was issued the M-16, my AR-15 had a Colt A2 upper. I swapped it with the Del-Ton A3. It functioned flawlessly, but of course I didn't have full auto. |
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Quoted:
Its bolt bounce. You need a heavier buffer and or spring. Some guns take alot, especially SBRs This needs to be in the M16 forum so you dont get the retarded replys. Also did it work with the original stock ETA put the old stock on BTW why did you put car stock on a m16 and trying to get it in F/A as a LEO??? View Quote It's bolt bounce. Hammer is falling as your bolt is bouncing out of battery causing the hammer to either strike the bolt carrier or simply ride the bolt carrier into battery. I had same problem...heavier buffer fixed it. |
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Quoted:
As stated earlier, this is a SWAT entry weapon. My 16" upper with a mid length gas system is the upper. Del-Ton flat top. Before I was issued the M-16, my AR-15 had a Colt A2 upper. I swapped it with the Del-Ton A3. It functioned flawlessly, but of course I didn't have full auto. View Quote The upper is your issue. Going to heavier and heavier buffers may compensate, but heavier buffers also introduce more stress on the host firearm, and are not the best solution for an M16 used in a life-or-death situation. Heavier buffers can and have disabled M16s. You have bolt bounce, which is caused by too much gas cycling the system and bouncing the bolt away from the chamber at a critical time in the full-auto cycle. OTOH, over-gassing rarely causes issues in semi-auto firearms, though under gassing will -- so many manufacturers whose primary market is for semi host guns will lean toward more gas. And AFAIK, Del-Ton does not fill military contracts, so they don't have to be concerned with over-gassing. A heavier bolt makes up for too much gas, but you are increasing the cycling mass and weight, and that takes a toll in wear. You are asking the host gun to handle stresses it was never intended to. One solution would be to get an adjustable gas block and dial it way down, to where it runs reliably with an H or H2 buffer. That would also give you more flexibility should you ever decide to mount a suppressor (which also affects gas levels). However, my recommendation for any M16 which is going to be used in crisis situations, like SWAT operations, is to go to a full milspec upper made by a milspec contractor. FWIW, I have an M16A1 made by Colt on March 7, 1978, so it's very close to yours. I've had it for 20 years and presently run about 15 different uppers on it, from 7" to 20" LMG. Except for my Shrike and LRM M169 uppers, all are factory Colt; almost all were bought new; and all were 100% reliable out-of-the-box in full-auto. I do swap around buffers ... but it is solely to modify the rate-of-fire. I don't like unreliable guns. I get really pissed off when they break, or refuse to run, so I stay away from components and configurations that make them do so. And I shoot for fun, not because it's my profession. Good luck. And stay safe. |
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It does have the cut.
Wouldn't a stronger buffer spring help to stop bolt bounce? |
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Thanks for the info.
I swapped the barrel into the stripped Del-Ton upper. I wouldn't think the actual upper would be the cause, but the barrel and gas system would be. Am I on the right track? Like you, I've been a little ticked off with weapon not functioning in auto. I'm safe with this gun on semi. It has never malfunctioned or misfired on semi with this configuration. It may be time for a new complete upper. Someone was asking for pics of the rifle and the bolt. I have those but can't figure out how to post them, as I rarely post to AR15.com. Thank you, Chad |
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I tried to use brackets [ ] around "img" in the post above when explaining how to post images and it screwed my post all up. I've cleaned it up and wanted to update incase the OP viewed the thread while I was sorting the issue out.
Wes |
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They are 1033 guns (DRMO) and it is our understanding they are basically on permanent loan from the military, as are the 3 HMMWVs we received. The can not be sold.
We have 6 M-16 rifles that were received in the mid 90's and those 6 were made semi-auto only. The full auto trigger group was replaced with a semi-auto only trigger group. We have 12 M-16 rifles we received in the past 2 years. All were new, never fired by the military. They are automatic, not burst guns. We test fired 2 of them. They functioned perfectly. My particular gun was not test fired, but the funciton check was good. The auto hammer, disconnector, selector, auto sear, auto bolt carrier, etc are in the gun. My AR-15 (I've had since 1994) is a Colt lower. A friend built the upper before the '94 Clinton ban, and I don't know the manufacturer of the barrel. I purchased the lower from a gun show, as all lower receivers sold out before the ban went into place. The AR-15 has never given me any problems. A couple of years ago, I swapped the A2 upper for a Del-Ton flat top upper. My barrel was swapped into the stripped Del-Ton upper (for mounting of optic). No problems in this configuration. M-16: I removed the receiver extension and replaced it with my carbine receiver extension. Carbine buffer and spring was swapped also. M-16 bolt carrier used. I replaced the M-16 lower and shorter tube onto my AR-15 upper, with 16" barrel. Semi: fires every time. Auto: 1 shot. Fresh round would feed and was unfired. I swapped in a H2 buffer and spring from another guy's rifle (carbine) and it seemed to fire in auto mode. I didn't fire more than a couple of bursts. I later swapped in several different springs and buffers. No change. 1 shot only. Occasionally I'd get 2 - 4 rounds. Then 1 shot. I put in a 5.0 oz buffer and a flat wire spring. (This is what a co-worker had and seemed to function the best in my gun when swapped). Still not reliable in auto. I swapped out the auto bolt and carrier from another M-16 and it seemed to work with the flat wire spring and extra heavy buffer. I thought the problem was fixed. The other day, the problem came back. Burst then malfunction. Fresh, unfired round in the chamber. Burst then malfunction. Burst then malfunction. From what I'm being told, there is probably too much pressure, causing bolt bounce. Why would my upper be allowing too much gas prssure? It is a mid length gas system in my 16" barrel? That's my issue. Adjustable gas system? Different barrel? Stronger buffer spring? Chad |
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Chad,
Reading your post it sounds like this is your configuration: 16" barrel Mid Length gas system Delton Flat top upper M16 Bolt Carrier from the original M16 you were issued M16 lower with full auto M16 trigger group Multi position carbine length stock Flat wire buffer spring, not a milspec Carbine buffer spring Carbine buffer Unknown bolt Unknown firing pin Unknown gas block What jumps out at me is that you have quite a mix of parts, but even still, the most questionable issue is the Mid length gas system. I don't have data on the right size gas port for a mid length system, maybe someone else here does though. I'd go back to a carbine buffer and spring, toss on a coworker's functioning upper and see what you get. Assuming that your coworker's upper with a carbine buffer and spring function properly, your best bet will probably be a new barrel rather than trying to sort out the perfect match of buffer and spring to make your system run without issue. Wes |
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That's pretty close
It is the M16 bolt, bolt carrier and firing pin. I don't know the make of the gas block. All of my co-workers with an issued M16, swapped the M16 lower (same as me) with their 16" upper. Some Colt, some Bushmaster. Nobody seems to have any issues in full auto. The reason I have a flat wire spring and heavy buffer is because I did swap a co-worker's flat wire spring and heavy buffer into mine. A couple of bursts in full auto (about a magazine worth) and it seemed to work. I didn't test it for a long period of time. As I stated before, it doesn't function in full auto, consistantly. I will probably try an adjustable gas block first. Chad |
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Definitely seems to be a gas issue.
I'll be the one to say this since no one else has. Why on earth would you run or consider running that upper on your duty rifle? You've already had numerous issues with it in this configuration; I can't imagine you having confidence to take it into a fight if you had to. I definitely wouldn't. And not to throw more fuel on the fire, but DelTon isn't exactly high quality equipment, certainly not something I'd throw on a semi duty rifle, let alone a FA duty rifle. This is not an attempt to shit on your equipment. But In my opinion, you are much better advised to skip trying to "fix" that upper by putting a gas block on it, etc. Go out and buy yourself a high quality upper, be it a BCM, a Colt, or a DD and have the confidence that the damn thing is going to go bang or bang-bang-bang-bang when you need it o and your life is in the balance. Put the delton back on your semi lower. My $.02; take It for what it's worth. |
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I'll second everything that david05111 says.
FWIW, I have two standard pieces of advice for new M16 owners, that also apply to you IMHO. --First, start out with brand new hammer/trigger/disconnector springs. Colt springs -- not Del-ton, DPMS, whatever. You are putting them in a Colt M16, and Colt standards are the milspec. Normally, this is because you don't know how many rounds have gone down the tube. But in any case it's a good idea because the hammer/trigger/discon springs in yours are 36-37 years old, and even sitting in a box, springs can either weaken or take a set. Springs are like the oil in a car or truck: They cushion the fire-contol components during cycling, to eliminate or at least reduce wear. I change mine every 5-10k rounds, just like the oil in my truck. A set of 3 new Colt springs from Brownell's is about $10. --Second, when you are having issues after a change in configuration, return to exactly the way it came from Colt. Put everything back on that was on there when you opened the box, after detail-cleaning to make sure any 37-year-old oil or grease hasn't caked up, then lube it to mil spec. Test-fire. If it doesn't run reliably, consistently, then talk to Colt or an armorer. If it runs in the original configuration -- and I know of no earthly reason an NIB Colt M16A1 from the mid-seventies would not -- then you start changing one component at a time. Test-fire. When it stops running reliably, you know that last component you installed is the culprit. Finally, I stick to Colt parts and components not because I worship The Pony, but because Gene Stoner's AR15 design is tolerance-specific, and Colt pays close attention to tolerances for all their parts, to keep them from the Dreaded Tolerance Stacking, where .001 here and .001 there eventually adds up to something that does not run reliably. Different manufacturers use different tolerances, but as long as they all add up correctly, you're OK. Knight and Noveske build incredible guns, but mix their components and you might very well have issues. Stoner designed the AR15 as a full-auto rifle. Once a semi-auto conversion hit the market, and started being cloned by other manufacturers, the need for the tolerances demanded by full-auto cycling went out the window. And if the other manufacturers want to sell guns for less than Colt prices, they also need to cut production costs. If they are only building semis, they can use parts built to looser tolerances because they still run well, and the wider the tolerance window, the cheaper they are to make or subcontract. To me, a machine gun is simply a machine to empty magazines. A semi is akin to a hacksaw; an MG is a Sawzall. They accomplish the same thing, but one does it significantly faster than the other. And as alike they are in goals, they are just as different in function. OK, I'll shut up now .... again, good luck! |
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I may have missed it, but you've run other uppers on your lower, and it runs. Have you put your upper on another lower, and seen if it runs?
Also, copy the url form your pic host site, then there's a postacard of a mountain in the reply screen here, click that. |
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I get what you are saying about Del-Ton. I had several people vouch for their stuff. I purchased a stripped upper. I transferred my barrel, etc. to the upper. What would Del-Ton or any other upper have to do with this being a gas issue?
It would be the barrel, gas block, gas tube, bolt carrier, etc. I see no reason that this patrticular stripped receiver would have anything to do with the gas system. ??? |
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An upper on it's own shouldn't effect anything like what you have going on.
If you were referencing my comments, by upper, I meant your entire upper barrelled assembly. |
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As tony mentioned, tolerances are important. The stripped upper alone likely won't give you any trouble. Your real problem is probably the barrel/gas system, but it could be compounded by the other parts you combine with it.
Here's the deal. You're combining a number of unknown parts into a configuration you're hoping is going to work. It's not wise to create a hodgepodge upper like this for anything but range work. As a duty rifle, its not particularly smart, particularly when your life or the lives of people you defend are in the balance and are relying on that weapon to function properly. From every possible angle, I think you're playing with fire with it. I'd even hesitate to create an upper myself out of quality, known parts and stick it on a rifle I intended to use on duty or to defend myself. Factory builds just seem to me to be a smarter, more reliable solution. But again, do as you wish. If you want to tinker with this setup, more power to you. I think you're better served by listing the upper you have in the EE and getting what you can for it (a few hundred dollars). Then look for a deal on a factory Colt, BCM, DD, LMT, etc., one of which may offer a LEO discount and make the new upper very affordable. That really is my best suggestion. You're going to spend more than a bit on messing with the gas system on this upper anyway; I think that money can be better spent. |
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My M16 had issues like yours, even with a Colt Socom upper, turned out to be buffer problems. But in the meantime I replaced all the internals, tried different uppers, BCGs, etc...
Be as systematic as possible. But in the end, I suspect it's your upper. Be sure you have a fresh recoil spring and the proper buffer. Some recommended the Vltor A5 system to me, I have one to try in case I have more issues, but so far my M16 is rocking and rolling even with my reloads. As it seems to be working I have also put in a Geissele full auto trigger set, and it is wonderful... |
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OP....You probably understand but just to make sure...when people are asking "did you try an 'upper' from your corworkers guns that runs fine on your lower receiver assembly?" or they say "the problem is probably your 'upper'....", people are refering to the entire upper assembly, not the bare receiver.
Wes |
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Make sure the gas rings are not leaking gas. The three gas rings should be offset from each other by 120 degrees at where they are split. The other thing is if the gas rings are worn out, since this is a NIB gun that's probably not the issue. But do keep it in mind for the future. |
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