I believe many moon ago there was a thread topic on gun safes after a residential fire including inside/outside shots.   I'm curious if someone could maybe dig that up from the archives....

I have a collection of photos showing safes after fires, and a few of them are gun safes.

All of the gun safes in the photos I have failed to protect the contents.  Is there anything in particular that you're wanting to see?

Basically a safe becomes an oven, cooking the contents, after a short time in a house fire.  I don't think people realize a house fire can reach well over 1,000 degrees F, and not much can take that  high a heat for an extended period of time.



There was a thread a while back with after shots of a safe and some rifles after a house fire.  The safe was mostly intact, but the rifles inside were charred and ruined beyond repair.

This thread is relevant to my interests.

So how would a fire safe rated for 1200 degrees for 45 minutes rate?  Would a typical fire destroy the contents?  When they say X degrees for Y minutes, does that mean it will protect metal/plastic/wood for the allotted time, or is it rating when paper documents will burn?

I have a gunsafe, I know it won't do jackshit if a major fire burns my house. That's why I carry a a rider for my guns.

Keep in mind that you're probably speaking of a gun safe with a rating that the manufacturer has assigned to it.  UL rates safes for burglary and fire, and there is currently no gun safe on the market that has passed the UL fire testing.  UL does have a 30 minute test, but the most common test is the 1 hour.  They also test for longer periods of time.  The exposure temperature is usually much higher than what the gun safe manufacturers test their safes at, if they even test them at all.  Whereas many gun safes are tested in the 1,200 degree range, UL is testing at temperatures 1,700 degrees and higher.  UL's test is also very tough in many other aspects.

Since UL tests under worst case scenarios, the chances of survival are very good in a UL rated container.  Most of the gun safes that I have seen, both personally and in photos from other techs, have failed pretty miserably.

Most safes are aiming for an interior temperature of 350 degrees.  This magic number has been around for a very long time.  Once upon a time businesses had written ledger books, and if the book was lost or destroyed, the business was done.  A temperature of 350 degrees may cause damage, but will leave paper in readable condition, which is why it became the target number.  Paper won't char until a hair over 400 degrees.  A new 125 degree rating popped up at the beginning of the computer age, as it is designed to protect sensitive magnetic media.

350 degrees can cause damage to various items.  It is also hot enough to set off some ammunition.

Below are photos of a UL rated fire safe and a gun safe involved in extreme fires.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v627/a1abdj/Sentry_Open_Fire_22_rt.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v627/a1abdj/burnedsafes02.jpg

The problem isn't the length of time the interior of these safes are exposed to heat.  The problem is the temperature inside of the safe itself.  Whereas the safe in the first photo certainly kept the temperature below 350 degrees, the gun safe did not.

http://www.libertysafe.com/fatboy-survives-3-hour-burn-lm-5-p-1702.html

http://www.libertysafe.com/surviving-the-real-fire-test-lm-video-p-84.html

Liberty is a good example of a manufacturer that plays marketing games with their products.  This isn't to say that their product is bad, but like many other companies, they like to brag about their safes while showing how weak others are.

Can anybody tell me what is wrong with this photo that Liberty uses to show how fireproof their safes are, along with how bad their competitors are?  If anybody else has already seen my answer to this, please allow others the chance to take a close look first:

http://www.libertysafe.com/images/images_pages/page72_large/lvl2-pg%2021-safeburn.jpg

Somebody with expertise please tell me what type of shenanigans they pull in this video in order to dupe their unsuspecting customers into believing their safes can withstand a fire.

http://www.ftknox.com/redesign/benefits/torcher-test-video.html

They don't play games, those pictures I posted where taken at a liberty fire test that I was present at. There is no smoke and mirrors with them. Their stuff is the industry standard for gun safe fire protection that everyone else strives to match. There are certainly others who do well, and may even surpass liberty. If there are, they need to step up their advertising and show what they can do. It can only help them. Liberty has the info, pictures, and stories out there that show what the inside of one of their safes looks like after a fire. That is good marketing, and those are things that customers need to know about when selecting a safe.

At that fire test I saw a competitors 75 minute fire rated safe fail the test in 26 minutes because of stitch welding.

By no means is the environment inside a safe during, or even after a house fire ideal. It is definitely very important that you get the safe cooled off and open right away after a house fire.

Burnt up competitor's safes





Liberty safe

Yeah, not exactly a standardized test.

Here is an actual media fire rated safe going through the standard test followed by UL and some European agencies.

http://www.chubbsafes.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/Film/furnace%20Test%20-NYswf.swf

The picture I posted is directly from their website, and it shows clear games.  Look closely.




While I admit that it is pretty much industry standard, what is it about putting gypsum board in a safe that others have to strive to match it?  11 gauge steel with 3 layers of 5/8" gypsum and a decent door seal is going to act the same regardless of who builds it.



But they don't show the safes where the contents were destroyed.  

The thing about fires and burglaries is that sometimes you simply get lucky.  Just because a safe gets lucky doesn't mean that it will really do a job somebody claims it will do.  I have seen shoeboxes under beds survive fires.  Is that luck, or is that a good example of how to construct a fireproof container?



You certainly have to be careful when comparing one safe to another.  Chances are that the 75 minute safe was never really tested.  There are some manufacturers that will just make claims with very little or no actual proof that their products will perform as advertised.

Stitch welding is also not always a deal breaker.  It really depends on how the safe is built.  Stitch welding tends to be weak on the thin steels usually found in gun safes.  It tends to hold up much better on plate safes.  There are several safes that carry UL burglary ratings that are stitch welded.  I have also seen these steel safes, with no insulation, survive fires.

This is the great thing about UL.  You know if the safe has a UL label, it will perform exactly as advertised.  With gun safes, from any manufacturer, you're not getting a properly rated safe.  Some of them are certainly built better than others, and some manufacturers tend to be more up front than others.  Of course that luck I mentioned previously has a lot to do with it too.

You and I are not going to make this like the thread on the Amsec. I am not playing games with you. Focus on the question the member asked.

I'm not arguing with you either.  I posted a photo that shows clear evidence of things not being as they seem.  I thought this is what was referred to as civil discussion?  I would really like for anybody else reading this, who is not in the safe business, to look at that photo and see if they can't see anything out of place.

As far as focusing on the question, the member asked for photos of burned safes.  The one shown in my photo is clearly on fire.  

I would like to identify the other safe in the photo that was represented as a 75 minute safe.  If you were there, perhaps you know who made it?  At first glance, it looks similar to your typical 30 minute safe.  Granite used to build 30 minute safes that seemed to have a similar door construction.  I'm also curious as to if Liberty made their choice of safes to test based on the sticker on the door, or a safe that had very similar construction.  To me, from the door alone, it looks like the safe isn't built as well as the Liberty.

In addition, for the record, I like Liberty for the most part.  They build a decent product that sells for a decent price.  They typically won't perform as well as the manufacturer or the retailers lead people to believe, but that's my only real complaint.  In addition, that's a complaint that I have with many manufacturers, including those of lines I represent.  Liberty also has some of the best customer service that I have ever seen from a gun safe manufacturer.  Prosteel probably coming in at a close second.

The only thing I notice is one safe has what looks like carpeting (the one on fire) while the other safe doesn't.

That's what most people see when they look at it, and it certainly achieves that initial shock reaction.  I'm not even positive that the Liberty shown in the photo has any carpeting.  It's really hard to tell in that photo, although in Snopczynski's photos, there are Liberty safes with fabric on the inside.

You'll have to focus on the things that are not on fire to see what I'm talking about.   Focus on the doors.

The safe on the left had the door opened and the interior set on fire. The door edge and the exterior paint is pristine, there is no way that was in a fire.  It may have been a  test performed in an oven but I would think the paint would still look a little rougher than that.

You got the big one.  There is no heat damage to that door.  Not only is there little to no damage to the paint, but the stickers are still intact as well.  There is also no discoloration on the plating of the door bolts that is not only visible on the Liberty, but in several of the other photos posted as well.

The flaming interior aside, if I had pulled those safes out of a fire, I would have surmised that the safe on the left had actually performed better than the safe on the right.

You may also notice the rear panel is missing from the photo of the Liberty.  The screws that once held it on appeared to be intact, so what happened to it?  It's also curious that they always set the top shelf down on the rifle rack prior to the testing.  Why don't they keep that shellf up there and put some sensors in the top third instead of just the sensors down low?

Safes also tend not to burst into flames on the inside.  There is little to no oxygen, so short of the safe turning into a puddle of molten metal, the interior is usually just baked.  If you increase the interior temperature to above the flash point, then open the door providing oxygen, you could possibly make it do exactly what it is doing in those photos.  If you let it cool to below the flash point prior to opening, then you can swing the door sans flame.  This would be easy to determine in this type of situation since you have sensors inside telling you exactly how hot the interior is.   In the real world, we would usually let the safe sit over night to cool off prior to opening it.

I'd really just like to see before and afters.....
ie: a 30 minute "rated" safe after exposure for 15, 30 or whatever estimated timeframe.  

It would make an excellent and informative thread.

Lighter fluid?

Any thoughts on champion safes?

I've seen some amazing stuff after real housefires.

In one huge canyon fire that burned 100+ homes you couldn't even recognize the automobiles that were parked in former garages. There is no safe made that will survive a real, raging fire for very long.

The odd thing about the fires was how some houses remained more or less intact right next to ones that were reduced to a light ash.

One safe we opened in a basement was still hot days later. I have no idea what the make/model was but I'd say TL-15ish... Thin plate sides/non-reinforced concrete/etc.. It made a very effective oven. AR-15's are neat in that they completely dissappear except for the barrel and gas tube.

That's why insurance makes more sense to me than trying to buy a safe that might or might not "protect" the contents in a real fire..... I've got a rider for less than a hundred bucks a year that covers my collection.

Any suggestions for a rider?    Everyone wants serial numbers, descriptions, how they're stored, where they are, etc.   Lots of good info for the wrong person.

Check NRA insurance.

The only thing I see is that the bolts are nice and shiny as well as the tag is intact on the non-Liberty safe but yet it's on fire while the Liberty safes bolts are sooty (like they should be) and there should be evidence of fire damage if the non-Liberty had fire inside the safe.

ETA:  I didn't read far enough to see this was already posted :(

State Farm just asked how much I wanted to cover them for. Their basic homeowners policy covers unlimited firearms (up to policy limit) for fire/acts of god ect and $1000 IIRC for theft. I upped mine to $2500 any one gun and $5000 total for theft for a few dollars a year. I didn't have to give them any other info. It might be different if you start getting higher dollar numbers but it's worth looking into.

Actually read your policy and then talk to your agent. You might be surprised with what you are and aren't covered for. If your agent can't or won't take the time to answer questions find a new agent. Insurance is just like safes and optics you do get what you pay for.

I use collectibles insurance, google them.  Very reasonable, covers ammo, holsters, mags, etc.  Much less expensive than homeowners rider or NRA's coverage (you do get 2500 free with NRA, if you are not signed up to get the additional 1000 coverage, find that sign up page today, it is free if you are a member).