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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:15:40 PM EDT
[#1]
Britain was isolated and alone as I recall...
ETA This applies to WWll When we entered WW1 Britain's manpower was deleted and they needed us rather desperately... |
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:16:33 PM EDT
[#2]
Draw. Neither Britain nor Germany had the ability to invade the other. To "win" Britain would have to survive the U-Boat blockade until Russia reached Berlin.
ETA: I doubt Russia reaches Berlin or Britain doesn't starve without American Lend-Lease. The US might not have won the war but they certainly wouldn't have won without us. ETA2: He might be right about WWI. We definitely shortened the war but Germany lost the war at the Miracle at the Marne. Everything after that was just grinding to the inevitable. Remember that WWI Germany didn't lose on the battlefield, they ran out of food. Our entry didn't change that. |
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:16:54 PM EDT
[#3]
No. The best they could have hoped for was a negotiated peace
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:17:18 PM EDT
[#4]
No.
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:17:20 PM EDT
[#5]
If the English/French were winning we would never have joined in.
WWI or WWII. |
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:19:28 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Draw. Neither Britain nor Germany had the ability to invade the other. To "win" Britain would have to survive the U-Boat blockade until Russia reached Berlin. Britain had the Navy to keep the Kriegsmarine in check but not enough output to invade. Sealion was not feasible on the German's side either. |
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:19:47 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If the English/French were winning we would never have joined in. WWI or WWII. |
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:19:52 PM EDT
[#8]
@Zhukov and @DK-Prof to the military history field telephone.
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:20:04 PM EDT
[#9]
Delusional Limey. WWI ended earlier with us coming in. WW II they were fucking starving to death when we go into it. He's just feeling his oats because the ME action got him all empire excited again, thinking they can do shit on their own. Damn near lost the Falkland Islands.
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:20:06 PM EDT
[#10]
Define “Join”. We were supporting them way before the declaration of war.
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:20:23 PM EDT
[#11]
Kind of, but not by design. They had stymied the Nazis enough in the Med that the Germans had to alter their invasion of Russia plans on the fly. By the time Hitler invaded the USSR it was late enough in the year that General Winter had a chance to stop the Germans, just like he stopped Napoleon.
Had the US just continued being the "Arsenal of Freedom" the Soviets would have still steamrolled the Nazis in the end, but would have had Soviet puppet states in all of Europe east of the Pyrenees. |
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:20:31 PM EDT
[#12]
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:21:07 PM EDT
[#13]
The UK won the Battle for Britain...and thats it. They were out of all resources and so were the Germans.
Without attacking the Germans on all fronts, with massive aid from the US nobody was going to beat the Germans. Certainly not the British. There is a good reason why high command gave total authority to an American. |
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:21:14 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Define “Join”. We were supporting them way before the declaration of war. |
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:21:37 PM EDT
[#15]
No, they needed materiel, the US provided it. That's what won the war.
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:21:51 PM EDT
[#16]
I don't think things were going real well for England.
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:21:52 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Our friend @Agent_Funky informed me that the United States, twice (both world wars), "joined a fight we are already winning" Original post, so any context is not lost For those of you that are scholars and military history buffs... prove or disprove his claim. Was the Britain/ England/UK "already winning" world war 2 when the United States entered the fight? no . |
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:23:20 PM EDT
[#18]
Bullshit.
Lend-lease with ships, tanks, jeep. Merchant marine ships to transport goods to the UK. Those Grant & Honeys that fought at El Alamein didn't come out of British factories. Nor did those Shermans that we later equipped the 8th Army with. Their Achilles tank destroyer was based on what? Our M-10 Wolverine. Howabout the Firefly? Oh, an upgunned Sherman. Their convoys were escorted half way across the Atlantic by the USN, easing the shortage of escort ships and manpower needed by the RN. Most of the escort carriers were built in America too. We supplied plenty of destroyer escorts for the RN. How about the LST and other amphibious assault craft needed for landing in Sicily, Italy and Normandy? The Commonwealth could not have pulled off D-Day without the US Army. |
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:25:25 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The UK won the Battle for Britain...and thats it. They were out of all resources and so were the Germans. Without attacking the Germans on all fronts, with massive aid from the US nobody was going to beat the Germans. Certainly not the British. There is a good reason why high command gave total authority to an American. The Germans walked away when they had finally reached 1:1 attrition. They had a 4 to 1 superiority in aircraft numbers. |
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:25:50 PM EDT
[#20]
If the UK was winning, why was Churchill begging us for weapons and to get into the fight?
Wouldn’t he want to keep the spoils of war all for Britain? |
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:26:40 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
Our friend @Agent_Funky informed me that the United States, twice (both world wars), "joined a fight we are already winning" Original post, so any context is not lost For those of you that are scholars and military history buffs... prove or disprove his claim. Was Britain/ England/the UK "already winning" world war 2 when the United States entered the fight? ETA (2023 EDT): Fixed phone typo "the Britain/England/UK" fixed to "Britain/England/the UK" 
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:27:19 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No. The best they could have hoped for was a negotiated peace |
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:27:41 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
Our friend @Agent_Funky informed me that the United States, twice (both world wars), "joined a fight we are already winning" Original post, so any context is not lost For those of you that are scholars and military history buffs... prove or disprove his claim. Was Britain/ England/the UK "already winning" world war 2 when the United States entered the fight? ETA (2023 EDT): Fixed phone typo "the Britain/England/UK" fixed to "Britain/England/the UK" WWII, not so much. The US and British prepared for a year, together, for Operation OVERLORD - the invasion of Europe through France. |
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:27:45 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
LOL. You triggered Bro? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Our friend @Agent_Funky informed me that the United States, twice (both world wars), "joined a fight we are already winning" Original post, so any context is not lost For those of you that are scholars and military history buffs... prove or disprove his claim. Was Britain/ England/the UK "already winning" world war 2 when the United States entered the fight? ETA (2023 EDT): Fixed phone typo "the Britain/England/UK" fixed to "Britain/England/the UK"  Attached File |
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:28:21 PM EDT
[#25]
I like agent_funky but there's been a whole lot of retardedness in his posts of late. I finally put him on ignore just like I do with most of the other underscores.
All you have to do is look at Churchill's thoughts on the subject. He knew the allies needed America in every aspect. If they've got to Agent_Funky then I fear that our great ally and brother Great Britain is a lost cause. |
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:28:59 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
LOL. You triggered Bro? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Our friend @Agent_Funky informed me that the United States, twice (both world wars), "joined a fight we are already winning" Original post, so any context is not lost For those of you that are scholars and military history buffs... prove or disprove his claim. Was Britain/ England/the UK "already winning" world war 2 when the United States entered the fight? ETA (2023 EDT): Fixed phone typo "the Britain/England/UK" fixed to "Britain/England/the UK" No chest beating, no national pride - just hard evidence. There was a question someone else asked about how you defined "joined" - I'll be glad to update the OP with your clarified and contextual definition, should you provide one. |
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:29:21 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you want to get really technical, the British IMHO didn’t win that. The Germans walked away when they had finally reached 1:1 attrition. They had a 4 to 1 superiority in aircraft numbers. I think one word describes the British in WW2 and what would continue to happen without the US.....DUNKIRK |
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:29:22 PM EDT
[#28]
Does not sound like a speech given while winning.
 Winston S Churchill: We Shall Fight on the Beaches |
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:29:27 PM EDT
[#29]
Yes and no.
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:29:43 PM EDT
[#30]
When we joined, the British subsequently lost Hong Kong and Singapore.
You have to ask the question whether they could have won in North Africa without our material help. That campaign was a sideshow for the Germans. If they had given Rommel two more divisions and taken Malta, he could have captured Sues and greatly hampered British ability to stay in touch with much of the empire. You have also consider if the UK would have won the battle of the Atlantic without our help |
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:29:54 PM EDT
[#31]
America wins on the merits of it's infrastructure being outside bomber range.
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:31:46 PM EDT
[#32]
haha no. at beat they may have reached a temporary draw and wouldnt have done that without our help in equipment. they could maybe have fought off a regiment of hitler youth if they had managed to storm the english beach but couldnt have done much else on their own.
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:34:26 PM EDT
[#33]
On September 2, 1940, President Roosevelt signed a “Destroyers for Bases” agreement. Under the terms of the agreement, the United States gave the British more than 50 obsolete destroyers, in exchange for 99-year leases to territory in Newfoundland and the Caribbean, which would be used as U.S. air and naval bases. British Prime Minister Winston Churchill had originally requested that Roosevelt provide the destroyers as a gift, but the President knew that the American public and Congress would oppose such a deal. He therefore decided that a deal that gave the United States long-term access to British bases could be justified as essential to the security of the Western Hemisphere—thereby assuaging the concerns of the public and the U.S. military. Who gives up military bases in the middle of winning a war? 
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:35:14 PM EDT
[#34]
The UK had the Royal Navy and the economic might of the Empire on hand. Solely against Germany, the UK could have won a protracted war. But if the Japs focused all their attention on British Far East assets. A peace agreement would have been brokered.
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:35:18 PM EDT
[#35]
Seperate thread seperate answer.
With regards to Iran, he's got some valid points and a different view. With WW2 I just don't see defeat of Nazi Germany without Americans. Could they have protected Britain? Maybe. Could they have defeated Germany? Hard no. |
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:37:11 PM EDT
[#36]
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:37:18 PM EDT
[#37]
WW1- The Europeans were spent. Basically they had no more manpower left. The Germans probably would have “won” by where things were.
When the U.S. started in the Germans were hosed. By the middle of 1918 there were more doughboys getting off ships each day than German soldiers being killed in the trenches. The Germans threw in the towel. WW2 - The British would have starved if it weren’t for the US supplying them during the Uboat war. |
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:37:19 PM EDT
[#38]
Exactly where were the British winning at the start of 1942? Other than against the Italians and Vichy French.
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:38:04 PM EDT
[#39]
Hitler always felt England would give in to his demands once Churchill was out and another Chamberlain type was voted in. He probably went back and forth and debated if an invasion was necessary. Even Franco would only release his troops to fight on the Eastern front they were not allowed to fight in the west. Half of France was already working with Germany and England could possibly be one political cycle away from giving in again to Germany's demands.
England's true heroes are the pilots during the Battle of Britain and strategists as this did prevent an invasion and gave the Germans a late start into the East. |
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:38:07 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The UK had the Royal Navy and the economic might of the Empire on hand. Solely against Germany, the UK could have won a protracted war. But if the Japs focused all their attention on British Far East assets. A peace agreement would have been brokered. |
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:38:39 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By @amos1909:
I like agent_funky but there's been a whole lot of retardedness in his posts of late. I finally put him on ignore just like I do with most of the other underscores. All you have to do is look at Churchill's thoughts on the subject. He knew the allies needed America in every aspect. If they've got to Agent_Funky then I fear that our great ally and brother Great Britain is a lost cause. 
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:42:47 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The UK had the Royal Navy and the economic might of the Empire on hand. Solely against Germany, the UK could have won a protracted war. But if the Japs focused all their attention on British Far East assets. A peace agreement would have been brokered. |
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:43:43 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Exactly where were the British winning at the start of 1942? Other than against the Italians and Vichy French. |
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:43:57 PM EDT
[#44]
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:46:30 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hitler always felt England would give in to his demands once Churchill was out and another Chamberlain type was voted in. He probably went back and forth and debated if an invasion was necessary. Even Franco would only release his troops to fight on the Eastern front they were not allowed to fight in the west. Half of France was already working with Germany and England could possibly be one political cycle away from giving in again to Germany's demands. England's true heroes are the pilots during the Battle of Britain and strategists as this did prevent an invasion and gave the Germans a late start into the East. Without it, Britain would have been a German held country. |
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:46:31 PM EDT
[#46]
Because it's a fun position take...
The UK volunteered itself for both world wars. The only reason it was in a position to involve itself in the second is because of US material support in the first. The US's great error was in providing support to the UK and France during WWI. While I have no philosophical problem with selling shit to people that need it the fact is that the only reason the UK needed that support was because they volunteered for the war. And in hindsight the result of that US support was a long, drawn-out Entente victory on the Western Front, rather than a reasonably quick victory for the Central Powers. Had such a victory taken place, the conditions that set WW2 in motion would not have existed, to the betterment of the world. |
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:47:54 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: True there. I think one word describes the British in WW2 and what would continue to happen without the US.....DUNKIRK Britain was an island, the Germans did not have the naval logistical and war fighting capability to cross the channel and keep their invasion flotilla away from the Royal Navy. Which at the time was enormous. Had the Germans tried to cross the channel, the Royal Navy would have curb stomped them. Might have cost half the Royal Navy to do it, but just like at Jutland, the Royal Navy could afford to lose them. The Germans could never have invaded Britain. Their military was NEVER designed from its inception and ideology to fight Britain. It’s difficult to describe the mental mind fuck the German Kriegsmarine officer corps carried into WW2 from their defeat by the Royal Navy at Jutland in 1916. Additionally, the whole ideology of National Socialism and the German military were based on 4 things: 1). Alliance with Britain against Bolshevism. This MUST happen for everything else to work. 2). Greater Germany in the East. Most importantly capturing the oil supplies in the caucuses. 3). Revenge on the French. 4). Keep the United States out of another European war. When you look at the goals of the German military and National Socialism, and the strength of the Royal Navy, Britain was NEVER in danger of invasion by Germany. What would in all likelihood have happened had the Battle of Britain continued for another month or so and the loses began to become ever more unsustainable, is that Churchill would have been removed in a vote of “no confidence” and replaced by the non-compromised Lord Halifax, who would have made a peace deal with the Germans. This very nearly happened on a few occasions. Britain was never in danger of militarily losing WW2. |
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:52:31 PM EDT
[#48]
Clown shoes. By his logic we were winning the War of Independence before the French or Spanish showed up.
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:53:02 PM EDT
[#49]
World War II no the UK nor the USSR would have one with out our help.
World War I UK and France might have won eventually without our help. That is very debatable. |
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Posted: 7/22/2019 8:53:25 PM EDT
[#50]
OP and Funky need to get a room and move beyond this. Both are great contributor's to the site, but they need to fuck or fight and move on.
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