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Posted: 3/29/2024 3:25:08 PM EDT
[#1]
"People cause trouble. Drone better."
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Posted: 3/29/2024 3:25:43 PM EDT
[#2]
Wars of the future will move too fast for the old tactic of fire bases. Just look at the past 20 years.
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Posted: 3/29/2024 3:26:42 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wars of the future will move too fast for the old tactic of fire bases. Just look at the past 20 years. Just like trenches were a WW1 thing........ |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 3:26:50 PM EDT
[#4]
Shoot and scoot or die.
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Posted: 3/29/2024 3:27:37 PM EDT
[#5]
All you have to do is watch footage of the ware in Ukraine to realize hes not wrong. Just like technology surpassed the usefulness of fixed naval fortification artillery technology will do the same for towed versions as well.
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Posted: 3/29/2024 3:27:53 PM EDT
[#6]
I think thats gonna depend on the conflict. if you can set up a FOB and not worry about counter battery then a towed piece that can be fairly stagnant probably makes a lot of sense. But in a world where counter battery fire is fairly rapid i would imagine a self propelled system that can shoot and scoot is the preferred package. but those new systems are pricey AF.
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Posted: 3/29/2024 3:27:54 PM EDT
[#7]
I can't see towed artillery emplacements faring well against drone attacks.
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Posted: 3/29/2024 3:28:20 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just like trenches were a WW1 thing........ Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Wars of the future will move too fast for the old tactic of fire bases. Just look at the past 20 years. Just like trenches were a WW1 thing........ |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 3:29:11 PM EDT
[#9]
Can I buy a surplus artillery gun then?
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Posted: 3/29/2024 3:32:31 PM EDT
[#10]
We are certainly watching warfare change and the only thing I know for sure about it is that it is going to cost us a lot of money to keep up with the changes.
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Posted: 3/29/2024 3:33:48 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can I buy a surplus artillery gun then? Circus cannons on our southern border would be good... |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 3:34:38 PM EDT
[#12]
One drone to rule them all
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Posted: 3/29/2024 3:36:09 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We are certainly watching warfare change and the only thing I know for sure about it is that it is going to cost us a lot of money to keep up with the changes. Money, men and materiel. Lots and lots of it. |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 3:36:53 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But aren't they using trenches in Ukraine? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Wars of the future will move too fast for the old tactic of fire bases. Just look at the past 20 years. Just like trenches were a WW1 thing........ The end of the civil war included trench warfare, also. |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 3:38:39 PM EDT
[#15]
Set up good EW. Towed is for defending your trenches. Shoot and scoot is for taking out their towed and other assets. Have good EW.
Have good EW. |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 3:39:03 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We are certainly watching warfare change and the only thing I know for sure about it is that it is going to cost us a lot of money to keep up with the changes. That and we will likely be able to experience it, first hand in real time. Fun for all ages. |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 3:46:03 PM EDT
[#17]
Towed artillery has only one thing going for it, it's cheap, and even that is only if you consider equipment and not personnel costs. Otherwise it's slower to emplace and displace, requires a large crew, and has a fairly short range. A HIMARS battery has around 75 people for 8 launchers. An EAB M777 cannon battery has about the same number of people for 4 tubes. The long term cost of all those extra personnel to man half as many platforms is substantial.
Wheeled or tracked cannon will be the only ones to survive. The crew requirement is lower and they're more maneuverable, while maintaining the capability to shoot large numbers of cheaper unguided rounds for suppression at shorter ranges. |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 3:48:07 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But aren't they using trenches in Ukraine? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Wars of the future will move too fast for the old tactic of fire bases. Just look at the past 20 years. Just like trenches were a WW1 thing........ They could be using swords and riding horses but that doesn't mean it's still the most effective way to try to win a war. 
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Posted: 3/29/2024 3:48:40 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Towed artillery has only one thing going for it, it's cheap, and even that is only if you consider equipment and not personnel costs. Otherwise it's slower to emplace and displace, requires a large crew, and has a fairly short range. A HIMARS battery has around 75 people for 8 launchers. An EAB M777 cannon battery has about the same number of people for 4 tubes. The long term cost of all those extra personnel to man half as many platforms is substantial. Wheeled or tracked cannon will be the only ones to survive. The crew requirement is lower and they're more maneuverable, while maintaining the capability to shoot large numbers of cheaper unguided rounds for suppression at shorter ranges. Ah you are doing math wrong. Now do it in 2024 terms. M777 is a whole lot better looking asset because it is easy to make and produce and the ammo is CHEAP. You cant lob himars at the same rate as 155mm ammo. |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 3:50:43 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I can't see towed artillery emplacements faring well against drone attacks. Towed Aegis or Iron Fist? |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 3:52:59 PM EDT
[#21]
"You fight a war with the tools you have."
Donald Rumsfeld 
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Posted: 3/29/2024 3:56:13 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: One drone to rule them all Throw in AI will add a big question mark to the future of warfare... |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 3:59:43 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ah you are doing math wrong. Now do it in 2024 terms. M777 is a whole lot better looking asset because it is easy to make and produce and the ammo is CHEAP. You cant lob himars at the same rate as 155mm ammo. There’s no reassign you can’t use an unguided projectile from a an MRL. Well HIMARS has some potential issues because it’s unstable but there’s always MLRS. |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 4:04:47 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There’s no reassign you can’t use an unguided projectile from a an MRL. Well HIMARS has some potential issues because it’s unstable but there’s always MLRS. Again this comes down to the economics of production cost, volume and logistics of usage. |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 4:07:43 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just like trenches were a WW1 thing........ Soldiers will always seek and/or build cover. Trenches are a natural result of 2 near peer militaries colliding. Towed artillery isn't mobile enough in the drone age. The comparison is silly. |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 4:09:43 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think thats gonna depend on the conflict. if you can set up a FOB and not worry about counter battery then a towed piece that can be fairly stagnant probably makes a lot of sense. But in a world where counter battery fire is fairly rapid i would imagine a self propelled system that can shoot and scoot is the preferred package. but those new systems are pricey AF. Is there a way to throw off counterbattery effectiveness finding points of origin through RAP rounds or something? Not an arty guy, but seems like declaring "x is obsolete" usually ends up nuanced. |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 4:09:59 PM EDT
[#27]
FOBs and Firebases have not ever been front line tools in nerar-peer conflicts.
They're really good for ongoing occupations. |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 4:11:03 PM EDT
[#28]
They are only necessary when you need your fire support where there are no roads, like on the top of a mountain, in the middle of a jungle or deep into enemy territory following a vertical envelopment
The General is also forgetting parallel developments into IAMD and CUAS. |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 4:11:43 PM EDT
[#29]
soon artillery will be paired with microwave and or laser drone area denial weapons. For the most part we are giving Ukrainians 70's 80's and 90's technology.
Microwave and laser area denial vehicles are already here. |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 4:12:29 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is there a way to throw off counterbattery effectiveness finding points of origin through RAP rounds or something? Not an arty guy, but seems like declaring "x is obsolete" usually ends up nuanced. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I think thats gonna depend on the conflict. if you can set up a FOB and not worry about counter battery then a towed piece that can be fairly stagnant probably makes a lot of sense. But in a world where counter battery fire is fairly rapid i would imagine a self propelled system that can shoot and scoot is the preferred package. but those new systems are pricey AF. Is there a way to throw off counterbattery effectiveness finding points of origin through RAP rounds or something? Not an arty guy, but seems like declaring "x is obsolete" usually ends up nuanced. Quoted: Quoted: Just like trenches were a WW1 thing........ Soldiers will always seek and/or build cover. Trenches are a natural result of 2 near peer militaries colliding. Towed artillery isn't mobile enough in the drone age. The comparison is silly. See bold. |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 4:12:32 PM EDT
[#31]
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Posted: 3/29/2024 4:13:30 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryThis now can be done my UAV |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 4:19:23 PM EDT
[#33]
UAVs have the momentum right now. I don't think they will maintain dominance as counter drone technogly develops and matures.
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Posted: 3/29/2024 4:20:40 PM EDT
[#34]
So no Airborne cannons? That's fucking stupid and so is relying on 120's
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Posted: 3/29/2024 4:20:54 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This now can be done my UAV Quote HistoryQuoted: This now can be done my UAV Really?I have no heard that. That's be a good idea. Manned Helicopters use up tons of manpower and maintenance hours. |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 4:22:57 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wars of the future will move too fast for the old tactic of fire bases. Just look at the past 20 years. Fire bases are a concept for COIN. The maneuver warfare of WWII moved too fast for fire bases. |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 4:23:07 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think thats gonna depend on the conflict. if you can set up a FOB and not worry about counter battery then a towed piece that can be fairly stagnant probably makes a lot of sense. But in a world where counter battery fire is fairly rapid i would imagine a self propelled system that can shoot and scoot is the preferred package. but those new systems are pricey AF. if you have a mobile gun that is as effective, you can park it in an FOB and shoot and scoot when required. |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 4:23:20 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Really?I have no heard that. That's be a good idea. We dont have one that can lift an m777 YET but we can make one. |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 4:23:44 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Really?I have no heard that. That's be a good idea. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: This now can be done my UAV Really?I have no heard that. That's be a good idea. 
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Posted: 3/29/2024 4:25:01 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ah you are doing math wrong. Now do it in 2024 terms. M777 is a whole lot better looking asset because it is easy to make and produce and the ammo is CHEAP. You cant lob himars at the same rate as 155mm ammo. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Towed artillery has only one thing going for it, it's cheap, and even that is only if you consider equipment and not personnel costs. Otherwise it's slower to emplace and displace, requires a large crew, and has a fairly short range. A HIMARS battery has around 75 people for 8 launchers. An EAB M777 cannon battery has about the same number of people for 4 tubes. The long term cost of all those extra personnel to man half as many platforms is substantial. Wheeled or tracked cannon will be the only ones to survive. The crew requirement is lower and they're more maneuverable, while maintaining the capability to shoot large numbers of cheaper unguided rounds for suppression at shorter ranges. Ah you are doing math wrong. Now do it in 2024 terms. M777 is a whole lot better looking asset because it is easy to make and produce and the ammo is CHEAP. You cant lob himars at the same rate as 155mm ammo. The more direct comparison would be M777 vs M109. |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 4:27:51 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is there a way to throw off counterbattery effectiveness finding points of origin through RAP rounds or something? Not an arty guy, but seems like declaring "x is obsolete" usually ends up nuanced. Not an artillertman, but I was an electronics tech while I was Navy, and I'm a physicist now... It depends on how complete your radar coverage is. If you can detect the shell within seconds of it leaving the tube, no amount of fuckery is going to help. Otherwise, rocket assist, etc will be helpful in complicating trajectory analysis. |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 4:28:47 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We dont have one that can lift an m777 YET but we can make one. Ah OK. Thought I was out of the loop on something. That'd be like some Command and Conquer or Starcraft RTS shit.
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Posted: 3/29/2024 4:33:05 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ah OK. Thought I was out of the loop on something. That'd be like some Command and Conquer or Starcraft RTS shit. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: We dont have one that can lift an m777 YET but we can make one. Ah OK. Thought I was out of the loop on something. That'd be like some Command and Conquer or Starcraft RTS shit. Fuck it, lets get some SC carriers already, though I'm not sure if we have enough pylons. |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 4:36:05 PM EDT
[#44]
Maybe it's the air defense that's lagging.
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Posted: 3/29/2024 4:36:44 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Towed artillery has only one thing going for it, it's cheap, and even that is only if you consider equipment and not personnel costs. Otherwise it's slower to emplace and displace, requires a large crew, and has a fairly short range. A HIMARS battery has around 75 people for 8 launchers. An EAB M777 cannon battery has about the same number of people for 4 tubes. The long term cost of all those extra personnel to man half as many platforms is substantial. Wheeled or tracked cannon will be the only ones to survive. The crew requirement is lower and they're more maneuverable, while maintaining the capability to shoot large numbers of cheaper unguided rounds for suppression at shorter ranges. It’s interesting - in less than a century, the people in the crew have gone from the least expensive, to the most expensive part of a weapons system. (Or second most expensive, considering the electronics suite in some systems). Do large vehicle mounted mortars make any sense at all, any more? The actual cost of the tube is trivial, compared to the vehicle and crew (for first world armies). |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 4:37:07 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ah OK. Thought I was out of the loop on something. That'd be like some Command and Conquer or Starcraft RTS shit. Yeah im going by swag here. Blackhawk can just about lift it. Strip all the human shit out of the equation. Any engineers here? Lifting 4000 kilograms lets say 50 kilometers? Better to use electric drone or helicopter turbine? |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 4:39:04 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s interesting - in less than a century, the people in the crew have gone from the least expensive, to the most expensive part of a weapons system. (Or second most expensive, considering the electronics suite in some systems). Do large vehicle mounted mortars make any sense at all, any more? The actual cost of the tube is trivial, compared to the vehicle and crew (for first world armies). If they can be easily dismounted? Absolutely. Even mounted its cheap to operate, keep shooting and scooting. Small enough makes it easier to conceal.  In Ukraine type warfare you can even simllify things by making "bins" of ammo that can be pulled into the vehicle fast in one go to keep moving and prevent return artillery fire or drone attacks. |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 4:40:13 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah im going by swag here. Blackhawk can just about lift it. Strip all the human shit out of the equation. Any engineers here? Lifting 4000 kilograms lets say 50 kilometers? Better to use electric drone or helicopter turbine? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Ah OK. Thought I was out of the loop on something. That'd be like some Command and Conquer or Starcraft RTS shit. Yeah im going by swag here. Blackhawk can just about lift it. Strip all the human shit out of the equation. Any engineers here? Lifting 4000 kilograms lets say 50 kilometers? Better to use electric drone or helicopter turbine?  'Cuz drones don't or cant use other forms of propulsion..... "The Reaper has a 950-shaft-horsepower (712 kW) turboprop engine (compared to the Predator's 115 hp (86 kW) piston engine)." |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 4:41:39 PM EDT
[#49]
Until you're at war.
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Posted: 3/29/2024 4:41:44 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 'Cuz drones don't or cant use other forms of propulsion..... "The Reaper has a 950-shaft-horsepower (712 kW) turboprop engine (compared to the Predator's 115 hp (86 kW) piston engine)." Well I am ASSuming you need a turbine engine because you will need a lot of compact ass to move 4000 kilograms |
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