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Posted: 12/20/2010 8:59:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: RTUtah]
Originally Posted By PSYWAR1-0: The Recce platform was something that sprung up within the NSW and 5th SFG communities that first became the Special Purpose Receiver built by Crane, which was supposed to be installed on any M4 lower. After a time when the perfect storm of the users wanting a match-grade trigger and the bolt-bounce issue was identified, the Special Purpose Receiver morphed into a complete rifle that was type-classified as the Mk12. Mk12: A BRIEF HISTORY (as authored by "LGT" & "FL") Mk12 Special Purpose Rifle (SPR) Scoped versions of the M16 rifle existed as far back as the 1960s. Like nearly all historic military rifles, the M16 went through decades of efforts to improve its accuracy, both in the military and civilian marksmanship communities. The need for the SPR dates back to the late 1980s and early 1990s when the 7.62mm M21 sniper rifle, a semi-automatic weapon of Vietnam vintage, was replaced by the M24 sniper rifle, a bolt action weapon. The M24 was originally specified to be a .300 Winchester Magnum, but the Army decided to field it in 7.62 NATO for a variety of economic reasons. This left the M24 in the unenviable position of being the worst of both worlds in the eyes of snipers at the time, since it lost the fast-shooing, semiautomatic capability of the M21, but did not gain the range advantage of the .300WM. This compromise left a vacant requirement for a fast-shooting semi-automatic sniper rifle. This need was most apparent in the US Army Special Forces (SF) community, since the other commands within the Special Operations Forces structure filled that need with Knights Armament Corporation's SR-25 sniper rifle. Army SF, being prohibited by its leadership from procuring the SR-25, sought the next best alternative, namely a Special Purpose Receiver (SPR) kit to convert the Army SF M4 carbines into highly accurate rifles. In late 1998, at the request of SFC Steve Holland of 5th Special Forces Group, and the approval of the SOPMOD joint IPT, the Special Operations Peculiar Modifications (SOPMOD) Program Manager, Troy Smith, authorized the purchase of 5 sets of commercial items as an SPR experiment. The original requirement was for USASOC, mainly the SF Groups, as WARCOM had the MK11, 7.62mm system. Once the SPR requirement was developed and demonstrated through experimentation, most of the other commands in USSOCOM added themselves to the Basis of Issue Plan (BOIP). The USSOCOM requirement for the SPR, with improved ammunition, was approved in July 1999, as part of the SOPMOD Kit, Operational Requirements Document, Version 5 (ORD 5). Further initial development included several variants of the SPR and new ammunition that were compatible with the M4 carbine's lower receiver. It was found that standard issue M855 5.56mm ammunition was not consistent enough to meet the requirement. In 2000, based on an upgrade requirement to provide a match-grade trigger to the design, Mr. Paul Miller, the SPR project manager, discovered an opportunity to pick through over 15,000 M16A1s that had been sent to Crane for destruction. Realizing that these M16A1 rifles, some of which were virtually new, could be used as "free lumber" to build full SPR weapons, Paul selected several thousand rifles to be set aside for the new SPR project. The SPR underwent a minor but significant name change, with the R having originally stood for "Receiver" now standing for "Rifle" The new weapon system was worthless without a matching round of ammunition to obtain the performance required. The PEO-SP USSOCOM authorized the new round that became Mk262 as part of the Mk12 system in August 2000. Paul Miller and his SPR team refined the 77-grain prototype ammunition and built approximately 124 SPR Rifles in the summer of 2001. These were finished just in time to ship out to Army SF in late October 2001, to be used in the first invasion of Afghanistan. The SPR rifles were extremely well-received, and the SOF combat units ordered hundreds more. In May 2002, USSOCOM removed the Mk12 and other complete weapons projects from the SOPMOD Program and placed them under the newly-formed USSOCOM Weapons Program. The fielded weapons included two versions (Mk12 Special Purpose Rifle Mod0 and Mod1). Fielding has since been structured for Mk12 Mod1 Special Purpose Rifle only. This rifle is used by Joint USSOCOM Commands and the USMC in combination with M262 (AA53, 77 grain) ammunition. Formal fielding of the full-rate production version of the Mk12 rifle and ammunition occurred in May 2003 and was completed in FY '04. In 2012, as the decade of war on terrorism was winding down and the SCAR weapon system began replacing the requirement for the Mk12, USSOCOM and Naval Special Warfare divested themselves of the Mk12 weapons system, and the Mk12 is now being looked at to fill a Designated Marksman Role within Brown Water Navy commands. View Quote * * * * * * * * * * The following parts lists and substitution parts was compiled by lancecriminal86 over the course of a LOT of research. Read up and pay attention! Below are the 100% .mil-spec parts lists to build a true SPR or Mk12 clone. Some of these parts are no longer manufactured and will require much effort and money to locate through forums and online brokers. Keep in mind the rifles were built off donor M16A1s, hence the prevalent A1 parts in the lower receivers and the BCGs. They were also first configured using parts available from 1998-2004, and most are inferior in some ways to newer designs. If this bothers you too much, STOP NOW. The rifles were issued as a kit in a Pelican 1700 case with cutouts. The kits included the rifle with suppressor, optic, bipod, an Eagle TAS-1 UMSS sling (unobtanium and also absolute crap), with a Dewey 1-piece cleaning rod plus Otis cleaning kit, and a cutout for magazines. An operator's manual was also included, however these have not been officially released for public consumption. However, the manuals are out there, and some companies building Mk12 uppers include one. Whether these are official .mil operator's manuals or specially made is currently unclear as the manual itself still contains language that it is not for distribution. - Alternate .mil-spec parts due to NFA, NLA parts, or changes in name/markings for current production in [brackets] - Extra notes about parts or availability are in (parenthesis) LOWER Lower receivers were standard across the SPR/Mk12 variants and the only variations would be between grips, stocks, and buffers. Most were marked either Colt or GM Hydramatic. All other parts were the same in regards to the lower parts. One caveat is the trigger, as the program originally selected the Knight's Armament 2-stage Full Auto Match trigger. Later on, some issues regarding negligent discharges occurred, and Geissele SSF triggers ultimately found their way into the Mk12 family. Whether 100% of all Mk12s eventually received the Geissele trigger isn't clear, so either is acceptable.
The upper receivers, which ultimately differentiate the four variants of the Mk12, have the most variation between each other. Early SPR/Mod0
ModH, Mod "Holland"
Naturally, once these rifles were issued to units, operators and even Marines used various non-issued parts. Here is a short summary of what has been seen: Early SPR/Mod0: Both Leupold 3.5-10x40mm and 3-9x36mm scopes have been used. Many have had carbine stocks like the old CAR-style, enhanced M4, SOPMOD Gen I, or even the Tactical DuoStock swapped on. Mod1: One 3rd SFG-issued rifle pictured with SSgt Robert J. Miller (MoH recipient) used an A.R.M.S #36 S-EX 5.56mm rail, and a Leupold M3X 10x fixed-power scope, possibly pulled from an M-24 or SR-25 rifle. Another has been seen with a Magpul PRS, LaRue mount, and a Premier Reticles 3-15x used by an AMU shooter, and a similar rifle was pictured on a FOB in a very posed-looking photo. Further, a USMC-issued Mod1 was seen using #22 Medium rings instead of High rings, and a LaRue mount has been spotted as well. Grips have varied from the usual A1, A2, and ERGO, and at least one Magpul MIAD has been used. As with the Mod0s, carbine stocks like the SOPMOD and M4 have been used on Mod1s. ModH: The Mod "Holland" was already a small-batch configuration, but even as soon as they were issued to 5th SFG units, some Ace SOCOM stocks were replaced with Magpul ACS and CTR stocks. Optics are basically anything existing in the unit's inventory, from S&B ShortDots still in the system, the 3-9x and 3.5-10x Leupold scopes from earlier Mod0s, and there's even a photo of an ELCAN on a Mod1 floating around. No non-magnified optics like EOTechs or regular Aimpoint M2/M4s, but Micros have been seen on offset mounts. Backup iron sights, as a whole, were almost entirely left unmounted. Grips were again the same usual selection. Parts Alternatives for Clone Building Many parts are rare, expensive, and/or both. Despite this, there are some alternatives to a 100% pure clone that will still provide the same visual look and performance. While not a museum-grade clone, most would be hard-pressed to discern the difference. Just know there are those of us out there that will haze and peer-pressure you into further moving your build towards a true clone. Barrel: Popular options are the White Oak Armament SPR barrel (rifle gas), BCM's SPR barrel, Rainier's Match and Ultramatch offerings (ensure it's the SPR contour with 12th Model profile), Ballistic Advantage's SPR barrel. Compass Lake Engineering can also spin a Mk12 profiled barrel with a Criterion chrome-lined blank, or even a Krieger, which was one of the original contenders for the program. The DPMS Mk12 barrels are NOT properly profiled for a clone. Optics & Rings: In the case of the Leupold 3-9x or 3.5-10x, it's generally okay to go for a non-illuminated version of either, sometimes with M1 or other turrets and reticles. As far as the NightForce scope, the 2.5-10x24mm is not generally released to the public anymore (with one recent exception through Sniper's Hide), so many use the 32mm or even 42mm versions with the #22 High rings. As for the rings, any of the recent produced A.R.M.S. #22s with the lever-stop humps are functionally the same, the desire for non-lever-stops is purely aesthetic when going for the most authentic look. As LaRue LT-104s have been seen in use, it is justifiable to use one depending on whether you have a specific rifle you want to copy, or even just if you absolutely cannot acquire #22 High rings. A.R.M.S. #38 SWAN Sleeve: The #38 family of sleeves are no longer available. Finding them secondhand usually cost $250-$300 easy, more for rarer early variants. Fortunately, PRi's copies of the sleeves look and function almost identically, with minor visual differences. PRi and other builders supply these currently for complete Mod0 builds. FSB: While the set-screw version of PRi's FSB is spec, most use the cross-bolt, clamp-style version. They are extremely robust, and when aligned and torqued, have been shown to hold strong enough that you'll probably shear your barrel extension pin or upper before it budges. This is mainly how Mod0 uppers are supplied by most vendors, including PRi themselves. Suppressor, Brake/Collar: Diverging from the OPS Inc. or AEM brake and collar will get you MAJOR flak. Trust me, I've been running an AAC SPR/M4 for years now and it took a LONG time to not get clubbed every time I posted it. The Allen Engineering AEM5 is basically the current production of the OPS Inc. 12th Model, as they were originally made by Ron Allen and his team in the first place. Only minor differences separate original OPS Inc. cans from AE cans, and these are only obvious to trained eyes. As far as the rest, you can swap Colt parts out for any other .mil-spec parts, like BCM, DD, CMT, etc. Any billet uppers/lowers, funky BCG coatings, extended bolt releases, etc. are extremely frowned upon. Remember, once you start going down the path of building a "better" rifle rather than what was spec, you're quickly beyond clone territory and would have been better off building a custom 16" or 20" rifle. Cloning is generally viewed as all-in or not at all. * * * * * * * * * * Complete Mk12 Mod0 / Mod1 Uppers Bravo Company Manufacturing High Caliber Sales Precision Reflex Inc. Specific Mk12 Tech Augee's side-by-side comparison of the original ARMS SWAN Sleeve and PRI reproduction PEQ Sleeves: bottom of p136 KOBK's side-by-side comparison of PRI Gen I, II, and III handguards, and Gen I and Gen II FSBs, and SWANs: middle of p137 Augee's Mod1 gas block tech: top half of p357 Glass1's Early Mod0 photo breakdown: middle of p449 tamboi's Leupold Vari-X, TS30, and TS30A2 scope history/lineage, and part numbers, p.792 * * * * * * * * * * As of 16 May 2024, Ron Allen is still making custom parts for his suppressors: View Quote * * * * * * * * * * Attached File |
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MACV-SOG nut.
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Originally Posted By Irish_11:
Joined the club this weekend. I know I will catch flak for the upper and lower (Aero) but I don't care. Thanks to the pages and pages of info and motivation. It took me a while to source deals on some of the parts, but it has been a fun build. https://i.imgur.com/mVquRar.jpg Aero Upper Aero M16a4 Lower Aero Standard LPK w/a2 grip Ballistic Advantage 556 Performance Series 18 SPR Barrel (Ops Inc 12 cut) Ops Inc 12 Group Brake and Long Collar Low Profile Gas Block KAC FF RAS A2 Stock Harris 6-9 MBRMS Bipod I still need: Optics Mount/Rings (thinking the LaRue Lt-104 A2 stock sling adaptor and front sling mount View Quote |
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Originally Posted By KOBK:
Good price on the barrel but it doesn't look like it is set up correctly for the ops collar and brake. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By KOBK:
Originally Posted By lonewolfgun:
Mk12 profiled barrels on sale at Brownells. Mk12 profiled barrels on sale. |
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Originally Posted By daojag: Nice. The A2 stock just looks huge to me now after putting an A1 (refurbished, not a FA or Brownells shell) on mine . After taking it on the road a few weeks ago though, the SOPMOD is really growing on me for portability. Current: https://i.imgur.com/NDjsi7C.jpg Early 2017: https://i.imgur.com/7h8CzYV.jpg View Quote |
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Originally Posted By daojag: Nice. The A2 stock just looks huge to me now after putting an A1 (refurbished, not a FA or Brownells shell) on mine . After taking it on the road a few weeks ago though, the SOPMOD is really growing on me for portability. Current: https://i.imgur.com/NDjsi7C.jpg Early 2017:. https://i.imgur.com/7h8CzYV.jpg View Quote |
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Originally Posted By eMc9001: Look's good though. ETA pic thread, ol' girl on the new gun bench. Still haven't painted the damn scope because of my indecisiveness on mounts. https://i.imgur.com/DrJ5SHG.jpg View Quote |
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PSALMS 144-1 Blessed be the Lord my strength, which teacheth my hands to warre, and my fingers to fight
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I think I’m gonna quit fighting it and give in to the Mod 0 clone game. It’s just so sexy and classic. Already having something close to an A1 style lower helps. I have a feeling this is gonna be an expensive ride.
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Strength Determination Merciless Forever
PA, USA
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Originally Posted By Deadsquiggles:
I think I’m gonna quit fighting it and give in to the Mod 0 clone game. It’s just so sexy and classic. Already having something close to an A1 style lower helps. I have a feeling this is gonna be an expensive ride. View Quote |
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Just placed the order for a Ballistic Advantage 18" SPR bball. Monmouth Reloading is having a sale. I think 25% off BA barrels.
On another note, how hard is it too find the collar and muzzle brake. I'm guessing that and the forearm might be the hardest part to find. But I could be wrong. |
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Originally Posted By Deadsquiggles:
Just placed the order for a Ballistic Advantage 18" SPR bball. Monmouth Reloading is having a sale. I think 25% off BA barrels. On another note, how hard is it too find the collar and muzzle brake. I'm guessing that and the forearm might be the hardest part to find. But I could be wrong. View Quote |
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PSALMS 144-1 Blessed be the Lord my strength, which teacheth my hands to warre, and my fingers to fight
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Strength Determination Merciless Forever
PA, USA
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Poor guy. First time I ever saw the top rail backordered lol
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Originally Posted By daojag:
Nice. The A2 stock just looks huge to me now after putting an A1 (refurbished, not a FA or Brownells shell) on mine . After taking it on the road a few weeks ago though, the SOPMOD is really growing on me for portability. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By daojag:
Nice. The A2 stock just looks huge to me now after putting an A1 (refurbished, not a FA or Brownells shell) on mine . After taking it on the road a few weeks ago though, the SOPMOD is really growing on me for portability. Originally Posted By bboehme:
Looks like short collar to me Originally Posted By Deadsquiggles:
Just placed the order for a Ballistic Advantage 18" SPR bball. Monmouth Reloading is having a sale. I think 25% off BA barrels. On another note, how hard is it too find the collar and muzzle brake. I'm guessing that and the forearm might be the hardest part to find. But I could be wrong. |
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So what're the hardest part to find?
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Originally Posted By Deadsquiggles:
So what're the hardest part to find? View Quote Reproduction Mod 0 parts are more-or-less available. |
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Well then I'm in like Flynn. I gotsta have that Mod 0 goodness.
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Originally Posted By Deadsquiggles:
So what're the hardest part to find? View Quote Mod 0: Original Mod 0 parts (most settle for retro reproductions) - front sight, hand guard, Swan sleeve Mod 1: Mod 1 Hand guard Mod H: Correct Gen 3 ACE SOCOM stock Common: Original KAC trigger (most settle for the Geissele) Original optics (most settle for re-releases) Original optic rings/mounts (most machine the new rings down) Certain parts of the Eagle sling kit (KAC mount, sling silencer straps) The cash to buy a registered receiver and a spouse that will let you spend it |
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Originally Posted By Deadsquiggles:
So what're the hardest part to find? View Quote It all depends on how far down the rabbit hole you want to go. If you're talking about going balls out museum replica level, the tough parts are the #38 sleeve, a Colt AF forge marked upper, and some #22 Medium ARMS rings without the later "humps" that prevent the levers going past 90 degrees. The optic is also a challenge if you want an actual period correct 3-9 TS30. Otherwise, just buy a non-TS30 marked 2.5-8 with M2 turrets and Illum Mildot and try to score a Mk12 turret for it. If not, you should be able to provide general Mk262 ammo data to Leupold and have them do a custom turret engraved, since some of the TS30s or 3.5-10s still around in group armories had different turret markings. Hell, before 2004 or so they were still using 62gr M855 turrets. You can make it as hard or easy as you want, all depends on what level of "clone" you're shooting for. Anymore, I'd build a solid shooter that you can go and flog on. Paint it, hunt with it, drag it through the mud. You can replace with more "correct" parts as you go. |
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Originally Posted By mrsaturn7085:
In my experience, the hardest parts to find are - Mod 0: Original Mod 0 parts (most settle for retro reproductions) - front sight, hand guard, Swan sleeve Mod 1: Mod 1 Hand guard Mod H: Correct Gen 1 ACE SOCOM stock Common: Original KAC trigger (most settle for the Geissele) Original optics (most settle for re-releases) Original optic rings/mounts (most machine the new rings down) Certain parts of the Eagle sling kit (KAC mount, sling silencer straps) The cash to buy a registered receiver and a spouse that will let you spend it View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By mrsaturn7085:
Originally Posted By Deadsquiggles:
So what're the hardest part to find? Mod 0: Original Mod 0 parts (most settle for retro reproductions) - front sight, hand guard, Swan sleeve Mod 1: Mod 1 Hand guard Mod H: Correct Gen 1 ACE SOCOM stock Common: Original KAC trigger (most settle for the Geissele) Original optics (most settle for re-releases) Original optic rings/mounts (most machine the new rings down) Certain parts of the Eagle sling kit (KAC mount, sling silencer straps) The cash to buy a registered receiver and a spouse that will let you spend it |
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I think I’m gonna go with the repro parts. I know it’s the easy way out but I’m not necessarily patient enough to go full bore clone.
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Originally Posted By Deadsquiggles:
Is it really that hard to find them and where do you find them? View Quote |
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I know of a guy who has 2 left in stock. Probably the same person cjwwd2 is talking about. He told me $1,700 for one... I chose the AEM5 instead.
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I was unaware they were no longer made. I though they were still in production.
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Edit: Double post
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What would be more correct? A black or grey A1 lower?
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Originally Posted By USMCSGT0331:
In no particular order: https://i.imgur.com/JQMZWrL.jpg https://i.imgur.com/Csbey17.jpg https://i.imgur.com/vNP6xpG.jpg https://i.imgur.com/s16U1Io.jpg https://i.imgur.com/Tus56tN.jpg https://i.imgur.com/g5GS1sE.jpg https://i.imgur.com/vdZTAAk.jpg https://i.imgur.com/xOy4JiV.jpg View Quote Outstanding collection!! Damn do I need a set of those rings without and stop humps. |
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Originally Posted By USMCSGT0331:
In no particular order: https://i.imgur.com/JQMZWrL.jpg https://i.imgur.com/Csbey17.jpg https://i.imgur.com/vNP6xpG.jpg https://i.imgur.com/s16U1Io.jpg https://i.imgur.com/Tus56tN.jpg https://i.imgur.com/g5GS1sE.jpg https://i.imgur.com/vdZTAAk.jpg https://i.imgur.com/xOy4JiV.jpg View Quote |
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Originally Posted By lancecriminal86: Fixed that for ya. View Quote Mod H ACE SOCOM info I omitted the Ops Inc 12th cans because aside from markings, the AEM5 is the same thing. The important thing with this part is to specify knurling or not at the time of ordering. According to AEM, both are correct but you cannot add knurling after manufacture due to the mandrel required for the process. |
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Originally Posted By mrsaturn7085: Gen 3 is correct - no one has taken the time to update the front page of the Mod H thread: Mod H ACE SOCOM info I omitted the Ops Inc 12th cans because aside from markings, the AEM5 is the same thing. The important thing with this part is to specify knurling or not at the time of ordering. According to AEM, both are correct but you cannot add knurling after manufacture due to the mandrel required for the process. View Quote |
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Originally Posted By mrsaturn7085: Gen 3 is correct - no one has taken the time to update the front page of the Mod H thread: Mod H ACE SOCOM info I omitted the Ops Inc 12th cans because aside from markings, the AEM5 is the same thing. The important thing with this part is to specify knurling or not at the time of ordering. According to AEM, both are correct but you cannot add knurling after manufacture due to the mandrel required for the process. View Quote Was there a person you remember talking to that really knew their stuff? As soon as I get a firm answer Ill change it, but not until. That's just responsible. I'm not doubting anyone, facts are facts, just confirming which is what I do at my job when doing research. |
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Originally Posted By chenault: I've been meaning to talk to you about that. I called Ace a couple weeks ago, I think after our last convo about this, and got two COMPLETELY different answers. The more competent sounding person said it was a gen 1, the more aloof person actually said she thought it was their gen 2 and if I'd give her my email she would check for sure. Since then nothing. Was there a person you remember talking to that really knew their stuff? As soon as I get a firm answer Ill change it, but not until. That's just responsible. I'm not doubting anyone, facts are facts, just confirming which is what I do at my job when doing research. View Quote |
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Originally Posted By 78Staff:
Seems like with the unimount, you gain a little ability to move the optic forward, but are now limited how far you can go forward by the rear portion of the mount vs. the front rings on a typical setup. It's certainly able to move the 2.5-10x24 more forward than with either 22's or NF rings (like I have below), but appears one still can't really take full advantage. Base on our pics's it looks like with the unimount it can be moved about 3/4 of the cap width forward only. Which, might be all that is needed really. Anyway, this setup below does fine offhand/off the shoulder, but I will give it a try on the bench and prone this weekend. If this doesn't work, I might pick up the UniMount from Brownell's - at least if it doesn't work out it will be straightforward to return. https://i.imgur.com/457zL2Rh.jpg View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By 78Staff:
Originally Posted By secretwheelman:
It's the 1.4" Ultra High w/20MOA #306-97 https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7370/27130307680_ca33760871_o.jpg It's certainly able to move the 2.5-10x24 more forward than with either 22's or NF rings (like I have below), but appears one still can't really take full advantage. Base on our pics's it looks like with the unimount it can be moved about 3/4 of the cap width forward only. Which, might be all that is needed really. Anyway, this setup below does fine offhand/off the shoulder, but I will give it a try on the bench and prone this weekend. If this doesn't work, I might pick up the UniMount from Brownell's - at least if it doesn't work out it will be straightforward to return. https://i.imgur.com/457zL2Rh.jpg I run 20moa mounts on both my bolt guns, so don't expect having much trouble sighting in at 100yd, hopefully. |
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NRA Life Member USN Retired |
my KAC unimount is said to be 19moa....I switched from the NF to the KAC mount and at 100yds it was indeed 19 clicks to get back to enter :)
I was pleased. |
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Originally Posted By chenault: I've been meaning to talk to you about that. I called Ace a couple weeks ago, I think after our last convo about this, and got two COMPLETELY different answers. The more competent sounding person said it was a gen 1, the more aloof person actually said she thought it was their gen 2 and if I'd give her my email she would check for sure. Since then nothing. Was there a person you remember talking to that really knew their stuff? As soon as I get a firm answer Ill change it, but not until. That's just responsible. I'm not doubting anyone, facts are facts, just confirming which is what I do at my job when doing research. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By chenault: I've been meaning to talk to you about that. I called Ace a couple weeks ago, I think after our last convo about this, and got two COMPLETELY different answers. The more competent sounding person said it was a gen 1, the more aloof person actually said she thought it was their gen 2 and if I'd give her my email she would check for sure. Since then nothing. Was there a person you remember talking to that really knew their stuff? As soon as I get a firm answer Ill change it, but not until. That's just responsible. I'm not doubting anyone, facts are facts, just confirming which is what I do at my job when doing research. See the middle of this page: HERE This isn't the first time I've done this kind of research - I'm the sole author of the Mk14 clone spreadsheet over on the M14forum (if you're bored...) and I completely understand you wanting proof... but regardless of what DoubleStar tells you over the phone, checking actual image history year-by-year online should still be the gold standard. Two more facts to keep in mind: 1. I could order the square Gen 2/3 tube in 2017. I could NOT order the round Gen 1 tube. 2. E-mail dates start 3/27/17, for a reference point when Tim refers to Gen 3 being used "9 years ago". The part number for the Gen. 3 buffer tube is A613, they are not available on the website but you can give the ladies in our call center a call and they can take your order. The price on the Gen3 tube is $76.99.
Thanks Tim TIM MOURNING CUSTOMER SUPPORT DoubleStar Corp. | PO Box 430 Winchester, KY 40392 [P] 859.745.1757 [F] 859.745.4638 [W] star15.com ... Hi Tim, My SOCOM stock is the gen. 2 type with the square button and clamp-on receiver end-plate w/swivel style sling loop. Will the gen. 3 tube work with the square latch? Thanks, Steve Sent from my iPhone ... Gen. 2 and Gen. 3 uses the same tube so you will be fine. Tim ... Perfect, and A613 is for the carbine-length and not the rifle, correct? Thanks again for the help! Mine isn't looking terrible, but it definitely slips between the #1 and #2 slots - see attached image. (pic 1, below - image shows my worn square-notch buffer tube) -Steve ... Tim, One more thing that popped into my head - you said Gen 2 and Gen 3 use the same buffer tube; doesn't the Gen 3 use a castle nut style receiver end plate? If so, wouldn't this mean that the Gen 3 tube needs a locating groove cut into the bottom of it (like standard Colt-style carbine buffer tubes)? -Steve ... A613 is for CAR length tube. The Gen 3 Socom still used a gusset. Gen 4, which is current production model uses a “mil-spec” egg plate and an enhanced castle nut. The castle nut on the Gen 4 has a slightly larger outside diameter and extends back over the exposed threads. Tim ... Great! Thanks for the clarification! -Steve ... You’re welcome, glad I could help. Tim ... Tim, Last question, I promise - just to clear up some confusion on some forums online, could you confirm the image I've attached shows the following (top to bottom): (pic 2, below - image is the well-known picture of three SOCOM stocks pasted all over this and the Mod H thread) Gen 2 Gen 1 (long) Gen 4 If this is correct, what was the difference between Gen 2 and 3? Thanks, Steve ... Steve, Sorry I haven’t gotten back to on that yet. We were getting ready for a big show and that’s taken the better part of the last couple weeks. I’m getting some information together and wanted to verify something before I got that sent out. I hope to have that back to you in the next couple days. When we bought the company about 9 years ago we were already on Gen 3 so I want to make sure the information I get you is as accurate as can be. Thanks Tim ... Steve, Sorry to take so long getting back with you. I had to do a little checking and confirming to make sure everything is correct. what the attached photo showed is: Gen 3 Gen 1 (long) Gen 4 Gen 1 Socom stocks will have a round “nut” (the part the adjustment button screws into) it will also have a gusset with a machined sling loop (this is designed to be ambi, as the gusset can be removed from the stock and installed with the sling loop on the other side). The Gen 1 will have 2 alignment slots on the top of the buffer tube that use 2 small flat head screws to keep the tube from rotating Gen 2 Socom stocks will have a square “nut”(the part that the adjustment button screws into) it will also have a gusset with a machined sling loop (this is designed to be ambi, as the gusset can be removed from the stock and installed with the sling loop on the other side). The Gen 2 will have 1 alignment slot on the top of the buffer tube that uses a set screw to hold in an alignment “nipple” to keep the tube from rotating. Gen 3 Socom Stocks will have a square “nut”(the part the adjustment button screws into) It will have a gusset with a tapped hole on both the left and right side of the gusset that will allow you to mount the upgraded Ace sling swivels, this gusset is not reversible. The Gen 3 will have 1 alignment slot on the top of the buffer tube that uses a set screw to hold in an alignment “nipple” to keep the tube from rotating. Gen 4 Socom stocks will have a “pill” shaped “nut”(the part the adjustment button screws into) It uses an ambi receiver end plate and extended and oversized castle nut.(the over sizing and extending help to strengthen the connection between the stock and the lower receiver) The Gen 4 will have 1 alignment slot on the top of the buffer tube that uses a set screw to hold in an alignment “nipple” to keep the tube from rotating. If I have missed anything or you have a question about anything above please let me know. If you don’t care to send me a link to the forums/threads you post this information in so I can watch them for questions or to clarify anything I would appreciate it. Thanks Tim ... Not a problem Tim - thanks for the clarification! The link is: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/520524_Official-Mk12-Mod0--Mod1--ModH-Photo-and-Discussion-Thread.html&page=814 Thanks again! Steve ... Glad I could be of help, sorry it took so long to get you all of the information. I’ll keep the thread open and keep an eye on it. If you have any questions in the future, please let me know. Tim |
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Originally Posted By mrsaturn7085:
I'll throw out the only argument I've really seen to the above, as well: https://s19.postimg.org/65tgfvdrn/Glass1_Mod_H_zps6e05kugl.png The Atlas bipod, lack of sear pin, and round stock button all lead me to believe this was a design prototype and may have been pieced together from parts on hand (hence the older stock). I'd let everyone form their own opinion about this one - even if it was a prototype at PRI, it would be a tough sell to call this one 'as-issued' without a sear hole. View Quote He used to post in the clone threads quite a bit, but people were dicks and ran him off. |
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What’s the rough weight difference between a Mod 0 and a Mod 1. I know it depends on accessories of course but I think I remember reading that the Mod 1 was lighter.
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Originally Posted By Deadsquiggles:
What’s the rough weight difference between a Mod 0 and a Mod 1. I know it depends on accessories of course but I think I remember reading that the Mod 1 was lighter. View Quote |
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Originally Posted By mrsaturn7085: All up, I think my last estimate was between 0.25 and 0.75 lb. Much of it depends on what all you consider - stripped upper or with accessories common to the Mod 0 vs. Mod 1? If you weigh the Swan sleeve, you'll probably be within 10% of your actual weight difference with stripped uppers. View Quote |
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Originally Posted By Deadsquiggles:
Yeah with most common accessories attached. Was curious cause I’m conflicted on what to build. Really wanna build a Mod 0 cause I think they’re sexy but I also wanna build a Mod 1 cause it’s the rifle the Navy used, and if I remember correctly, my uncle carried one while in the Navy. So that got me wondering about the weight difference. And yes I know the logical answer is to build both View Quote If you're worried about a half pound then do some pushups. Kidding aside, the mod 1 is lighter. |
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Yeah I think I’ll do the Mod 1. A1 stocks are kosher for Mod 1’s, right? Already got one on my SPR inspired build that I can steal for this. And where do I find the KAC FF rail besides the EE? Ugh this won’t be easy.
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Yes, A1 stock is good.
I'll shoot you an email with websites. I don't think you're supposed to post them or some crap. It's shouldn't be too difficult for ya. |
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Originally Posted By Deadsquiggles:
Yeah I think I’ll do the Mod 1. A1 stocks are kosher for Mod 1’s, right? Already got one on my SPR inspired build that I can steal for this. And where do I find the KAC FF rail besides the EE? Ugh this won’t be easy. View Quote |
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-Things do not happen. Things are made to happen. -JFK
-Beware the fury of a patient man. -Thousands and thousands of laws....All for just ten commandments. -"alot" is not a word. |
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