I’ll take 12” all day long. Lots of 5.56 only gets 12” including the vaunted MK262.

First, the topic is "Defensive ammo for 11.5." So performance out of a 16" barrel is irrelevant.

Fine, you take 55SP. I'll take 62 BSP or BSB or one of the TBBC clones.

The post I was responding to was about 12” being barely adequate. Pretty clear if you read the exchange but guess you’re just looking to be pedantic.

Is Mk262 out of a 16” barely adequate? Cuz it only gets 12”.

As for what you use I couldn’t possibly give less of a shit what you do. Use a .22 if you want. The point is Hornady 55gr SP DOES IN FACT perform out of an 11.5” gun and the claim it penetrates 6-8” is demonstrably false.

https://palmettostatearmory.com/aac-5-56-nato-77-grain-sierra-matchking-hpbt-20rd-box.html?avad=190366_a3a0d00c5&utm_source=Avantlink&utm_medium=Referral&utm_campaign=el

Losing your temper? Personalities? Tsk, tsk.

Another alternative. 75 grain black tip

https://palmettostatearmory.com/aac-sabre-blade-black-tip-5-56-nato-75-grain-20rd-box-ammunition.html

Good choices, but neither is barrier blind. I have a bunch of the IMI and some of the PSA. Both are heavy OTM/BTHPs and tend to fragment. Currently, though, I'm collecting the mid-weight BSPs I mentioned above, which tend to retain more weight and be barrier blind.

That might be better depending on the use case scenario. Or, it might not. Sometimes, fragmentation of a home defense round if it goes anywhere other than a legit target is the better alternative.

Recognizing that, I plan to alternate the types of rounds in the magazine. If one doesn't stop the bad guy, the others should. (I think the danger of over-penetration is exaggerated.)

I've killed alot of coyotes with 223, 5.56, 260 rem, 204 Ruger, 20 pracrical, and 5.56 is a shitty killer past 150 yards with a man size barrel.

I know alot of this is theorycraft and gel tests and the venerated "two legged critters", but any 5.56 under 16" is a truly pathetic killer.

The only loadings for 16" and under in 5.56 that will consistently DRT coyotes and whitetail is a 50-55gr bullet pushed as fast as it can go. Ballistic tips and frag rounds such as the Barnes Varmint Grenade will always anchor a critter if the shot is respectable and kept within range.

The Heavier stuff will always pass through a dog and it will run. They do eventually die, but are NEVER close to where they were poked unless a spine ot head shot were made.

The lighter bullets blowing up in the chest cavity will almost always drop them right there.

99% of folks have no idea just how weak a 11.5 or 14.5 5.56 is. Weak. Pathetically weak. Try shooting through very mild brush or leaves. Comical how much the bullet flops.

Video games, gel tests, unrealistic daydream scenarios and movies all have it wrong. If you don't believe me go out and make things dead with it. After awile you will learn.

If you NEED a navy seal length barrel for potential room clearing, use a zippy bullet that blows up close range.

I guess body armor would change things, but let's not kid a
Ourselves here....

Since hunting is being used as the standard (?), I’ve killed lots of whitetails with SBR 5.56’s. Works great. Actually works about as well as large calibers and long barrels. It’s certainly not something I’d call “pathetically weak”.

I've killed plenty of whitetail and coyotes with 60 and 64gr soft points as well as 75gr TAP out of a 16" AR.

All did the job without issue - the 75gr TAP was the most devastating.

I've done plenty of hunting with an 11.5" 5.56 and it kills deer dead. It will put a bullet end to end through a smaller white tail.

Okay I misread this thread or didn't go into detail enough.

As all of your testimonies and pictures represent, SBR 5.56 will kill anything juat fine with a decent load.

I equate my desire for a hunting load that drops game at appropriate ranges immediately and consistantly.

5.56 with great hunting bullets very seldom will do this with even coyote size game.

77 TMK @ 145 yards. Amazing exit. Ran 100 yards.
Attached File



70 TSX @ 50 yards. Ran 80 yards in pucker brush
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50gr Barnes Varmint Grenade @ 180 yards. DRT
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Cheating here, but to further prove my point. These are all taken with a 204 Ruger 32gr VMAX at 300 yards over a bait pile. All DRT. Immediately.
Attached File

Attached File


Velocity kills.

I know I'm against the trend nowdays and I respect the hell out of everyone right to do your own thing. Just sharing some of my practical experiences of making things not alive.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/2023-M855A1-Velocity-and-Clear-Gel-Testing/16-786506/

I stocked up on the IMI 77gr SMK's back when they were $0.50 a round at Midway (Salad days), along with some Frontier 75gr loads.  That was for my 12.5", 16" and 20".  

Going in, I knew it was a good, but not great, defensive load.  It is basically a better M193 in how it operates.

The shorter the barrel, the shorter the total fragmentation range, and most likely, the longer the neck.  

It is not barrier blind (which was a plus for me).

77grs TMK's are better, but probably even less barrier blind, and are starting to become harder and harder to find (again).


In the end, something that expands instead of fragments will always have a place as a top defensive load, given that expansion is usually more consistent, are barrier blind, and allows for a longer expansion ranger than rounds that fragment, although I prefer fragmentation.

My hunting and combat experiences are somewhat similar. The DRT expectation is where I think we disagree. It's just unrealistic to expect an animal to DRT every time.

To an extent, it doesn't matter what you use. Some will die right away, some will run a bit. Some even further. Like anything the devil is in the details, and ballistics are just one detail. The details of anatomy are equally if not more, important. And since you are shooting things covered in fur, the shot placement, even when done well, if often not ideal.

5.56 is plenty to kill a coyote. It's frequently used to kill Mich larger game. .22lr can reasonably be used for Coyotes up to 50 yards or so.

The deer shot in my post above yours folded in its own shadow and was dead by the time I walked to it/before. Dropping game depends on CNS involvement, nothing more. With a 5.56, your TSC for that is about 3-4". Put the bullet within 3" of the CNS and it's drop flop. Don't, and it's not. I've done it numerous times both ways and this rule plays out pretty much down the line. With 7.62, you get 6-8". 300WM, a bit more. This is presuming rapidly expanding projectiles that retain their shape and mass, or rounds like the TMK as long as the depth to CNS isn't too far, which by all accounts is a fair depth with that round.

The FBI standard for 10% gel, when starting at the correct temperature and kept at the correct temperature, in a temperature controlled environment, is a calibration BB penetrating 2.95" to 3.74" when fired at 590 fps.

That test was done outside, with a 590fps calibration BB penetrating 3.7" so the gel can be inferred to show "generous" but accurate penetration.

Yes, that single test showed a pass at 12.1" penetration in an 11.5" barrel (which is the question at hand) but I am also sure that if more rounds were fired into more blocks (especially blocks that only allow closer to minimum penetration) there would be some that under penetrate from that same load and an 11.5" barrel. That occasional under penetration may be OK to you... and I bought several thousand of those 55 grain Hornady soft points several years ago on sale at under 7 cents each, for reloading onto a cheap plinking, small game, and close range target load; however, I would not "reccomend" that as a self defense loading. You get all the negatives of a soft point, such as limited tissue disruption vs fragmenting loads, without good barrier performance and you underpentrate all the time from longer barrels. It is an accurate bullet for the money and is "close enough" that I would shoot it instead of 55 grain FMJ from short barrels. But I would also not reccomended M193 as a defensive load due to inconsistent yaw, late yaw, and neck length of the would cavity, even though it ALWAYS penetrates 12" consistently and has a good wound profile. There are simply better options.

And as a final note... I said SOME 55 grain soft points only penetrate 6-8" and not that the Hornady 55 grain soft point does (it penetrates more and why I bought so many). I simply said you should not blanket reccomend 55 grain soft points as a class and 55 grain Hornady soft points will get failures to reach 12" penetration... which it will if you test enough rounds,  because I have seen it first hand at ATK ballistic demos.