Posted: 12/11/2010 5:21:40 PM EDT
|
Maybe this belongs in the rimfire section, but I go ahead anyway, sorry in advance. I have a Colt H-BAR that I wanted to use for CMP competition. It has a JP Enterprises trigger in it. So far thats the only thing I have done to the rifle.
Costs being what they are and my outdoor range in Asheville, NC no longer shoots 200 yds. and no longer has a High Power program, I thought of shooting .22 rimfire at my indoor range. Questions: What is the best choice for a 20" CMP style upper and will it function with the JP trigger that I have. Any other advice would be wleocme. Thanks. Dr. |
|
I can't think of any reason a JP trigger wouldn't work with a .22LR conversion.
I was actually just at the range this afternoon and the guy next to me was training on his CMP AR15 using .22LR. It was a COLT AR15A1 (original production from 30+ years ago!) that he threw a 22 BCG and an adapter for his mag. |
|
Compass Lake Engineering sells a .22 upper setup just like a CMP match rifle. It's got a free float tube, NM sights and a douglass barrel, but it'll run you almost $1100 to get your hand on one.
I just popped over to Model 1 Sales website and specced out my own .22lr upper. It's got a free float tube, NM sights, and an ER Shaw barrel and it cost me right around $600. Here's a picture: 
I had it out this morning, just goofing off shooting on a 50 yard reduction of the SR 200 yard target. I was able to crack out 98 in prone and mid 90's in offhand and sitting. Not too shabby considering that I haven't practiced in over a month! You have to be on your wind calls when shooting a .22. Even a modest wind will blow you right out of the 10 ring. Matt |
|
I imagine Accuracy Speaks could make you one, but it'll probably cost more than the CLE upper.
If you want one built for you, I'd suggest giving Ballistic Advantage a try. They have barrels for $245, and if you send them the rest of the parts (the upper receiver and a Spike's, Tac Sol, CMMG, etc .22 bolt kit) they'll assemble it. http://www.ray-vin.com/ has 50 yard reduction targets under his "tech" section. Matt |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Thanks for the input guys. I would imagine WOA makes a comparable unit to the CLE? I just looked at the WOA website. No .22 uppers. I was thinking of Accuracy Speaks. Any opinions on AS ? Lee I am having one built right now at AS. I sent a whole bunch of parts I had hanging around as spares, and my Ceiner kit which was basically useless anyway in a 1:7 223 competition barrel anyway! I got mine to keep sharp at the indoor 22LR league... better than shooting only air rifle over the winter, (HATE NY WINTERS). Mike B |
|
You know, Pilkington is supposed to be shipping the first batch of their air rifle NMAR uppers next month. They're CO2 powered, mount right to your existing lower, and are legal for NMAR (National Match Air Rifle) competition.
Nothing like regular competitions to keep you sharp over the winter. I suppose I'm spoiled, though. I live 40 minutes from Camp Perry and my junior rifle team competes there every month. Once they're done shooting, I shoot in the NMAR match. Matt |
|
If you are looking for a 22lr upper to give you meaningful accuracy for Highpower Practice, then you basically have two choices; CLE or Accuracy Speaks. Everything else is a crap shoot for accuracy or configuration for what we need... and there's always the "it's almost as good" disclaimer attached. It's those two or a plinker.
I have one of Scott's B17 Pellet Uppers and spoke to him a couple of days ago. He is working on making them more accesible, but he is NOT shipping more in the foreseeable future. |
|
Blind Rat - What do you know about the Pilkington situation? I got an email from them about a month ago stating that the first shipment from Crosman would be ready to go in mid Janurary? Did it fall through or something?
As for the .22 upper, here is what I did with my Model 1 Sales upper back on the 10th. This was at 50 yards with some nasty wind going on. Those were shot on Ray-Vin's SR 50 yard reduction target. Offhand: 
Seated: 
And prone: 
They sent me the upper back in May, and it just didn't perform, so I sent it back and said "fix it" and they replaced the barrel and now it shoots fine. Good thing they have a warranty on their stuff! It's still not perfect, but I'd say its far better than a plinker. I have .22's that shoot better, but they're all match grade bolt guns with adjustable stocks and ounce weight triggers. I'd say it does pretty well for a rifle with a post front sight and a 4.5 lb trigger. Check over in the rimfire forum, there are some other companies that make incredibly accurate .22lr AR uppers. Nordic is supposed to be gearing up to sell a service rifle practice upper through a distributor, but I haven't found out who yet. I know a lot of folks are enamored with CLE, but to me $1100 for a practice upper is crazy, especially considering that you could buy a whole Rock River service rifle for $775 this year at Camp Perry ($500 for an A2 upper and $275 for the A2 lower with NM trigger). I'm sure Tac Sol or Spike's could make a nice practice upper if they wanted to, but they probably just don't see a market for it. CMMG has their new evolution .22 uppers, and they make a 20" government profile for $365. It would probably do just fine if you added a free float tube and a proper set of sights. Matt |
|
My expectation for meaningful practice with an AR22 is X-ring or better. I can't tell what your upper is capable from the groups you show. Might be more illustrative if you put a scope on your upper and show me your groups off the bags. My CLE will chew out the X-ring. Will these "other" makers put together a CMP Service Rifle configuration?
PM'd you on the Pilkington situation. |
Now I'm gonna have to go find my carry handle mount... 
I'll try to get some groups off the bags, but it's gonna be a while. We've got a decent amount of snow on the ground and it's freakin' cold out. I know I don't shoot worth a darn when I'm shivering! I'll concede that your upper is very likely more accurate than mine. Those groups above were shot with Winchester Dynapoint GT's, I haven't been too successful in getting mine to cycle with standard velocity ammo yet and it pukes when I try to feed it Wolf Match of any flavor. I have some extra recoil springs coming so I can work on it. But, at the end of the day, I still consider mine to be a reasonably good practice tool for a hobby. Even if it tosses half my prone shots into the 10 ring, that's ok, because prone is the least of my problems. 
Model 1 Sales built my upper complete with freefloat tube. Their website will let you custom order your upper with just about any configuration you want. The only changes I've made are to install an 072 front sight and a hooded rear aperature. Model 1 could use some work in the sights department, their "NM" sights aren't quite in the same league as the ones on my Fulton Armory or my Rock River rifles. But that is easily remedied for way less than the price difference we're talking. Nordic is supposed to be coming to market with a complete, ready to run service rifle practice upper, but I haven't seen it yet. From what I've seen, their uppers have excellent accuracy. Here is a link from American Rifleman on the subject: http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/nordic-components-nc22/ It looks like some of our fellow ARFCOM members are already doing making their own Nordic practice uppers: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=390&t=195710 This is actually a really neat time to be into .22lr AR type rifles. Lots of R&D going into them, and lots of neat products coming out. Matt |
|
Thanks for those links. It would be nice if those nordic 22 uppers gave a less expensive option. The reviews weren't encouraging on the accuracy though. BTW, you might want to download Ray's MR reduced target for Prone Slowfire. You're shooting on the SR reduced which won't score as you have it.
Try this one; http://www.ray-vin.com/tech/targets/mr50yd-22.pdf That's a better representation for prone slowfire. |
|
Oh, none you worry, I have the whole set. That MR target is a real pain, it even gives my fancy smallbore target rifles a run for their money. It seems to be even tighter than the NRA 50 yard outdoor position rifle target (I think its the TQ-3 or something).
There seems to be a point of diminishing returns with the reduction targets. I shoot better prone at 600 than I do on the 10m NMAR course (using a CMP supplied Creedmore/Anschutz rifle). Even Gary Anderson mentioned to me that when he was trying it out, his scores were noticably lower than he was accustomed to. Matt |
| I believe the NRA 50yard target your talking about is called the A23. I printed Ray's MR target and they look similar. Are your 600yard scores similar to what you're getting with Ray's SR? If not, then it's not a good representation. I suspect Mr Anderson's difficulty were not with hold, but rather with shooting a post. |
|
The problems with the NMAR prone target are not just me. One of the other regulars is distinguished in high power and really knows his stuff. His prone scores are down too. It's crazy, for both of us, scores will run something like this:
10.3, 10.5, 10.3, 7.2, 10.5, 6.9, 10.5, 10.1, 7.7, 10.0 It'll be a string of great shots broken up by horrible ones. Not the occasional 9 or 8, but a 7 or 6. I've had shots where I wasn't happy as soon as the trigger broke, and they were 10's, and then a few shots later one that feels perfect comes out a 7. It just doesn't make any sense. All I can figure is that the target is somehow even less forgiving than the real MR target, or the rifles just aren't accurate enough to ge the job done. Matt |
|
Shooting your AR or shooting your Annie? Shooters clean the A23 all the time. Improve your equipment/ammo, improve your skills, or make the target bigger...(?)
You mentioned your "fancy smallbore target" rifles. Are you shooting smallbore too? What type? 50ft, Outdoor 3P? Outdoor Prone? Have you tested your rifles/ammo? Something's not right if Ray's MR target is giving a good SB gun a problem. |
|
In my comments above I was referring to shooting the NMAR matches at Camp Perry. They use 2 targets for the match, one that duplicates an SR at 200 yards for offhand and sitting, and one that is supposed to duplicate the MR at 600 yards for pron. The prone target seems to be tougher than a real 600 yard target fired at range, because I've scored better on the 600 yard target than I can do on the NMAR "600 yard reduction" target using the CMP supplied Creedmore/Anschutz NMAR rifles.
In the post above that, I was just saying that the MR reduction is a challenging target, not that it's impossible or anything. I have a Marlin 2000L and an H&R M12. Both have adjustable stocks and handstops and were gone through and tuned by 10 ring service back when they used to come to Camp Perry. I used both when I used to shoot indoor 3P smallbore (Marlin for "any sight" or scoped matches, H&R fitted with Redfield sights for open sight matches). I can chew out the center of the MR reduction target with either, but it's challenging. I think we have thoroughly hijacked the OP's thread! 
Matt |
|
I can chew out the center of the MR reduction target with either, but it's challenging.
Isn't that the point? I don't think our discussion is without value because when someone says brand x , y or z is just as good as brand CLE or Acurracy Speaks, you need to know by what standard they are speaking of. Yes, the Ray-Vin MR reduced target is a challenge but the CLE and AS are up to the task and isn't the point of training to push yourself?. Should you shoot an easier target to show a higher score? I personally see no value in that except for one's ego or to rationalize the purchase of a less capable upper. |
| From my personal experience, I can vouch for the CLE rimfire upper. Hasn't failed me yet. It costs a bit more than a centerfire upper from WOA but the practice exp. besides dry firing is worth it. No reloading for it. Buy a case of .22 and have at it. The only problem I see with the trigger is all the residue from shooting .22LR. A lot of it ends up in the trigger area. Just blow it off with a compressed air can or similar device. Once in awhile take apart the trigger group, clean and lube. I don't have exp. with the JP trigger but I am using a WOP tuned RRA trigger and it is still good from 2003 with the rimfire upper as well as centerfire. |
|
I've already admitted that the CLE is no doubt better than my M1S upper. And sure, if money were no object, then a CLE would be the tool to buy for practice. For me it breaks down to economics. One CLE upper costs about $1100. I reload my own 5.56 ammo for around .30 a round. I can buy a box of Wolf MT for about $5.00, or .10 per round. My savings from shooting .22 instead of 5.56 is about .20 per round.
$1100 upper/ .20 per round savings = 5500 rounds to payback. So, I have to shoot 5500 rounds to pay off that upper versus just shooting my own reloads. My time to make the reloads is worth something too, but between working 45 - 50 hours per week, raising a small child, and coaching a junior shooting team, I just don't have the time to shoot that much now. On the other hand, my M1S upper breaks down like this: $618 upper/ .20 per round savings = 3090 rounds. Now, I shoot maybe, maybe 500 - 750 rounds in practice during the summer. The rest of my shooting is done in our local club's 200 yard matches and full course matches, so the .22 is out for those. (Like I said, my time is extremely limited.) At 500 rounds a year, my return on capital investment in that $618 upper is 6.18 years. The RCI on the CLE upper would be 11 years. The whole point of the .22 AR is to save money on practicing. The whole point is to take a hobby, which, to a completely rational person, is an absolute waste of money in the first place, and make it less of a waste. Like it or not, $1100 is a lot of money, especially today in the era of plummeting home values and decimated 401k accounts (not to mention a bankrupt government). The OP was looking for opinions on an upper for practicing indoors. He said he has a Colt HBAR with an upgraded trigger and that's it. Colts don't come with free float tubes, which makes me assume that means he doesn't have one, which means he probably hasn't been at this very long. To tell a guy who is just starting out that he needs to spend $1100 on a practice upper or not bother at all seems a little extreme, no? That's a little like telling a guy who is just starting out racing that he needs to either shell out $400k for a Lamborghini or stay home. There is always an answer somewhere in the middle. That's just my take on it, your mileage may vary. Matt Quoted:
I can chew out the center of the MR reduction target with either, but it's challenging.
Isn't that the point? I don't think our discussion is without value because when someone says brand x , y or z is just as good as brand CLE or Acurracy Speaks, you need to know by what standard they are speaking of. Yes, the Ray-Vin MR reduced target is a challenge but the CLE and AS are up to the task and isn't the point of training to push yourself?. Should you shoot an easier target to show a higher score? I personally see no value in that except for one's ego or to rationalize the purchase of a less capable upper. |
|
For ammo in the CLE upper I found this to be 10 ring accurate : Aguila Standard vel. from CMP
I bought a case whne it WAS $179. The best ammo that the upper liked was Eley Match (Can't remember exactly but it was the most expensive rimfire ammo I ever bought. Followed by SK or Wolf Target. SK runs about $60 a brick here in HI. |
|
Matt,
Thanks for the time that you put into sharing the cost analysis from your perspective. For me what was missing was the benefit side of the equation. Yes the M1S upper is about half the cost of a CLE or AS, but if it won't hold 10 ring on the A23 or Ray's MR target, then it's value is only in Standing, Sitting Rapid, Practice and maybe Prone Rapid (we didn't discuss whether it would hold X's on the Ray's SR3 reduced target). If it won't hold X's on the A23 or MR, then that mean's less than half the value of the CLE for me. That's just my take on it, your mileage may vary.
That's probably the part of your statement that I agree with most. For some, the opportunity cost of buying a CLE or other rimfire upper is a buying a 2nd upper (practice perhaps). If the trade off was buying a Rock River or other upper for about $600, then your analysis would be applicable because at least we know an RRA will hold 10's and X's on a Prone Slow Target so the benefit side of the equation is satisfied. For me in order for your analysis to hold for the M1S upper, I would either have to know that it would hold X's on the A23 or Ray's MR, or I would have to invest in another SB rifle to use for Prone Slow practice. You have a Marlin and an H&R that are capable, so it's a non-issue for you, but for others that don't have something suitable it may not be a sunk cost and would instead be a cost added to the equation if they wanted meaningful practice at Prone Slow. (and even at that it wouldn't be as good because the configurations and sights would likely be different.) When that added cost of an additional rifle to practice Prone Slow is added at say $500 then the fixed costs become the same ($600 M1S Upper+$500 Budget SB Rifle vs $1100 CLE Rimfire) and the payback period is immediate. If the opportunity cost is a 2nd White Oak Precision upper at similar cost to a CLE AR22, then the fixed costs become similarly the same, and the payback period for the CLE Rimfire upper again becomes immediate. Don't get me wrong, I do understand that a CLE or AS is not within everyone's budget especially in today's economy. However, if you are considering a less expensive option like one from Model 1 Sales, make sure that the upper is up to the task that you are intending it for. If you're happy just practicing Standing and Sitting, great! You can save a chunk of change. If a significant part of your purpose is to practice prone, make sure to watch for Matt's accuracy tests of his M1S upper when the weather get's better for him. The OP asked which upper was the best choice for a 20" CMP style upper. Hopefully between us we've answered his question. |
|
I guess that's the thing, I use my .22 uper for practicing offhand, sitting rapid, and prone rapid. I hardly every shoot prone slow with it because that's not where my problem with prone slow lies. Offhand is one of those things, if I do it A LOT, I can get my scores to hover in mid 90's. As soon as I slack off I drop back down to a low 90's score. I had a really busy summer and I didn't have time to practice hardly at all and shot a freakin ' 88 in standing in the NTI. That was a wake up call. The .22 upper is a good enough tool for me to use in standing practice. If i can get a consistent mid-90's score using it at 50 yards, I know I'll be OK when I step up to the 200 yard line. I also have to work on my rapid strings, especially sitting. I have a degenerative hip condition that prevents me from sitting cross legged, so I have to sit cross ankle, and if I have to work very hard to get decent sitting scores. The .22 is good for that because I can shoot, stand, reload, repeat for not much money. My prone rapid is usually pretty good, I shot a few points under my usual in the NTI, but even at that it was a 95. My problem in prone slowfire is the wind. I don't have a place to shoot 600 yards for practice. I shoot 300 yards on an MR reduction target, and I can tear that target up pretty well, so my technique isn't the issue. I'm just not used to dealing with a lot of wind and it hurts me. The .22 upper is not such a good tool for practicing long distance wind calls.
This has been a great discussion! Hope the OP doesn't mind...
Matt |
|
The .22 upper is not such a good tool for practicing long distance wind calls.
I'm not sure what to make of this. I find my Rimfire upper an excellent tool for wind. The wind sensitivity of the 22lr makes for good practice at 50yds and even better practice at 100 yards. BTW, speaking of results, don't take your prone rapid for granted if you know what I mean. 
|
|
I built up a DCM type upper with a Nordic, adding a RRA FF tube and an armalite clamp on front sight tower and armalite match rear.
I only got a few range trips on it and am not impressed at all. Constantly jams or fails to reset trigger (RRA) and is lacking in accuracy. Disgustingly wide fliers off of sandbags.  ETA- Well the jamming is going away but the accuracy is still spotty. I had one jam in 300 rounds, not counting the last empty often failing to clear when the mag is empty. Pull the mag and that empty gets stuck in there.
I've since removed the carry handle and front sight tower and installed a Nikon scope and started to hunt for ammo that it liked better before I had to put it up due to work. I don't want to send it back until I do all that I can. I really need to get it wrung out. Get it shooting one way or another or see if Nordic can check it out. I guess they use green mountain barrels and from what I understand, you get a good one or you get a bad barrel. Nordic also admits that they had issues with sending out uppers with uncrowned or improperly crowned barrels but mine should have been built just after that. |
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.