[ARCHIVED THREAD] - MagPul or Haley or Costa? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 1/26/2012 11:26:27 PM EDT
| I'm a novice shooter and want to learn how to run my Glock for potential defensive use. Same for the AR15. I've watched the Magpul video series and really was excited about getting some training from Haley & Costa. Now since they've gone their separate ways, people have to make a choice. MagPul is offering their pistol course a rock's throw away from my house this spring! Costa is having a course a couple of hours away this fall (easily drivable, but would have to spring for hotel). Still waiting on Haley to put up his schedule. If I could only do one, I'd sort of prefer Haley, but what about you guys out there with experience? Is MagPul still worthwhile? I can't likely make it to more than one course this year, so I have to choose. Is Costa's course worth more than MagPul? What do you guys think? Thanks!!! |
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I just got back for a Haley handgun/carbine 1 class. Each class was 2 days and it was an amazing experience. Haley is mindset driven and advocates thinkers before shooters and everything he does is based off of experience and studies that he has done. I learned a lot and shot a lot. One other thing, most classes scale the material to the shooters in the class. We had a great a competent group so we did some cool ‘problem solving drills’ on day 2 of both classes.
I say go to as many classes as you can afford. I hope to get out there and go to at least 1 from each and I would also add in Tactical Response to the list. If any one of those was right down the street from me I would be there! |
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Both guys are great instructors but I preferred Chris just a hair more. He was fun but serious.
I'm assuming Steve Fisher is teaching the Magpul class. He's good but some find his personality a little abrasive. If it was me it would be Costa or Travis assuming only few hours away and needing a hotel room. It's pricey with tuition, ammo, hotel, food, gas, etc. A carbine class you are looking at close to $1500 after it's all said and done. Handgun slightly cheaper but not that much. If money is tight go to the local training with Magpul. Whatever you do purchase good ammo. Do not skimp in this area. Steel case ammo has it's place but not when you are spending a ton of money already. |
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LOL, Im far from abrasive
Im blunt actually....can i be abrasive yes when need to be..... and as the saying goes The Business of gun fighting is far to serious to be anything but ruthlessly critical of yourself and others (Quoted Ben Thomas) Besides i always had to be the bad guy for Chris so which class were you in? any of the 3 would be good there will be changes to the dynamics program this year as well |
| Experience wise, Haley is the only one of those 3 that's been in a gunfight. If you're looking to learn how to fight with a gun and not just look cool on the range, the instructor needs to have been there, otherwise thy're just regurgitating something someone else said. I'm not saying that the other 2 are bad instructors, they just don't have any credability talking about something they've never experienced. |
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Experience wise, Haley is the only one of those 3 that's been in a gunfight. If you're looking to learn how to fight with a gun and not just look cool on the range, the instructor needs to have been there, otherwise thy're just regurgitating something someone else said. I'm not saying that the other 2 are bad instructors, they just don't have any credibility talking about something they've never experienced. With much respect to Travis, just because a person has shot people or at people doesn't mean your getting good inst, is it important yes and No (not Travis is bad he is a person i worked 2 years with) I have classes with NInjas whom have killed a lot of people in there careers and still couldn't pass on info to me or others that was pertinent to what i was there to learn more was i there for 3 hours of war stories about no shit there was.... and others that i have gotten alot from but meant nothing to the LE or civi world side of shooting and some that couldn't teach a child to tie there shoes Also while yes it can be important to some i also find it interesting when the MIL seaks out civi trainers to teach SF and others how to SHOOT there are programs that do just that not all are about tactical fantasy band camp so of the best classes i had were simply about becoming a better fundamental shooter which fighting with guns and taking humans lives are about for the most part also more so a mindset.... I was hired to teach and train shooters and fighters how to be more efficient accurate and faster with there guns as well to problem solve I don't have to tell war stories or have to have killed 3000000 people to do that, if i cant get subject matter across in practical applicable terms to all then i am of no good I have been at this for about 15 years on a professional level teaching all walks from MIL/LEO/SWAT? and everyday earth folks I do what i can to help those in harms way every day no matter what uniform or not they wear to become better period... as for what changes are coming you will see a more down and dirty and gritty program along with more accuracy based drills and standards for students to set and achieve goals Ill let the AAR's do the talking |
| OP, you've just asked some people here to divide by zero. FWIW I would train with any of them. I don't buy the whole "you have to have been in a gunfight to teach" line. Can it be an asset? Of course, but I don't see how it automatically makes you a better instructor within the scope of what these classes teach. |
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Experience wise, Haley is the only one of those 3 that's been in a gunfight. If you're looking to learn how to fight with a gun and not just look cool on the range, the instructor needs to have been there, otherwise thy're just regurgitating something someone else said. I'm not saying that the other 2 are bad instructors, they just don't have any credibility talking about something they've never experienced. your quote I take it that you are Steve Fisher... let me elaborate: There is an "oh shit" factor the accompanies 2 way ranges that you cannot duplicate nor account for on a static range. Gunfights do not go as planned. The key learning experience to surviving them is NOT being able to do a picture perfect reload in .1 seconds, it's learning to adapt to the dynamics of the situitation (good or bad), adjust and often improvise as needed, and contine on. This "oh shit" factor cannot be explained by someone who has not experienced it, therfore you can't teach someone how to overcome it. Stress shooting, force on force, etc... are close but not realistic enough to fully prepare you. In a gunfight, I would rather be someone who can think and apply common sense under stress and keep their wits about them rather than the person who can perform flat range techniques. Muscle memory does not work in extreme stress. If you want proof, ask anyone who has been in a gunfight. Like I said before, it is up to the OP and what he wants to learn. He said preparing for a defensive situitation, thus my recommendation, especially as I have no financial bias from his 3 selections. If you want a simplier analogy, then consider this: If you were to select a martial arts instructor, would you pick the Tae Kwon Do instructor who teaches you forms and how to break boards...or the MMA fighter who gets in the cage on a frequent basis? |
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Experience wise, Haley is the only one of those 3 that's been in a gunfight. If you're looking to learn how to fight with a gun and not just look cool on the range, the instructor needs to have been there, otherwise thy're just regurgitating something someone else said. I'm not saying that the other 2 are bad instructors, they just don't have any credibility talking about something they've never experienced. your quote I take it that you are Steve Fisher... let me elaborate: There is an "oh shit" factor the accompanies 2 way ranges that you cannot duplicate nor account for on a static range. Gunfights do not go as planned. The key learning experience to surviving them is NOT being able to do a picture perfect reload in .1 seconds, it's learning to adapt to the dynamics of the situitation (good or bad), adjust and often improvise as needed, and contine on. This "oh shit" factor cannot be explained by someone who has not experienced it, therfore you can't teach someone how to overcome it. Stress shooting, force on force, etc... are close but not realistic enough to fully prepare you. In a gunfight, I would rather be someone who can think and apply common sense under stress and keep their wits about them rather than the person who can perform flat range techniques. Muscle memory does not work in extreme stress. If you want proof, ask anyone who has been in a gunfight. Like I said before, it is up to the OP and what he wants to learn. He said preparing for a defensive situitation, thus my recommendation, especially as I have no financial bias from his 3 selections. If you want a simplier analogy, then consider this: If you were to select a martial arts instructor, would you pick the Tae Kwon Do instructor who teaches you forms and how to break boards...or the MMA fighter who gets in the cage on a frequent basis? yes i am, nice to meet you. SO by your description above then flat range work up and training is useless and the only training should be combat and those who i have asked and been with and trained with and under have all been asked these questions as well..... it all starts on the range with fundamentals and to be honest most of them have told me they were simply luckier than the guys trying to kill them.........having been in LEO circle for years as an officer and punched in the face enough times to know the difference between gym and street fight . And while i agree with you do a degree, why does the MIl seak out and hire instructors from the gaming community to make them better? or what relevance does combat action of a machine gunner apply to a 45yr old office worker with a shotgun in his house or the 35 year old single mother with a handgun yet we see these reports in the news almost monthly and they are successful with almost no training at all and while i agree that combat experience is important its not a end all be all either, No disrespect but i have seen to many MIl guys coming 0ut of combat beating there chest claiming bad assery they did not teach me shit except how to put a lot of rounds down range and tell war stories well great thanks for your service and what you have done. But i want to learn to be better not hear war stories that may have or may not occurred i have all ready dealt with that enough..... range work up as long as an inst can make me smoother faster more accurate(being key here under speed) find a chink in my armor so to speak and get me to a better level of proficiency its worth the money even as a INST i still take at least 3-5 classes a year if possible im an eternal student. Yes i get it that combat and people shooting at you and you shooting back at them etc..... has relativity and i dont discount it Ill be very happy |
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Steve,
I do not discount fundamentals, I advocate them very much. However, in regards to the OP, the ability to use his brain as needed should be paramount to using a particular tool. His skill level will increase with time and proper practice; mindset though needs to take precidence. Working on fundamentals and drills can enhance your chances of survivalbility, I agree, yet they don't win fights by themselves. In the instances you mentioned, those people prevailed because they used their heads, not skills (albeit with a bit of luck). Given the OP has asked for 1 of the 3 courses, the experiences of Travis would benefit him more immediately as he has demonstrated that he is able to transfer those experiences on to others very well. The fact that he (the OP) is looking at other courses of instruction shows that he will also be an eternal student, as most of us are. I didn't imply that all people who've been in gunfights are good instructors or that you can only learn from people that have been in battle; I suggested the best choice of the given options for his stated needs. I also agree that something can be learned from any class if you are looking to improve youself and varied training can help with that, as is why the military seeks outside of their traditinoal realm regarding training. I'm not suggesting that the OP, or anyone would not benefit from either of those courses mentioned. The fact still remains, experience is often the best teacher, whether direct or learned. |
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Jason all you need to do is register on line on the magpul dynamics sight
here is my email [email protected] contact me direct for questions if need be or if your still having issues |
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Jason all you need to do is register on line on the magpul dynamics sight here is my email [email protected] contact me direct for questions if need be or if your still having issues thanks, I did get a call from Amanda finally. I'm going to register for the College Station course next week once my credit card statement posts see you then |
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Jason all you need to do is register on line on the magpul dynamics sight here is my email [email protected] contact me direct for questions if need be or if your still having issues Registered today, see you in College Station! |
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Experience wise, Haley is the only one of those 3 that's been in a gunfight. If you're looking to learn how to fight with a gun and not just look cool on the range, the instructor needs to have been there, otherwise thy're just regurgitating something someone else said. I'm not saying that the other 2 are bad instructors, they just don't have any credability talking about something they've never experienced. How do you know this? Can you please quote the verifiable source? |
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Experience wise, Haley is the only one of those 3 that's been in a gunfight. If you're looking to learn how to fight with a gun and not just look cool on the range, the instructor needs to have been there, otherwise thy're just regurgitating something someone else said. I'm not saying that the other 2 are bad instructors, they just don't have any credability talking about something they've never experienced. How do you know this? Can you please quote the verifiable source? Really? Is google broken? Travis spent time in Marine Recon and was in Iraq with BlackWater in 04-05, for starters. When your google works again, just search under those words. |
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I think he may have meant, how do know know Steve or Chris have not been in a gunfight?
Btw, I have trained with Steve and he is a top notch no BS instructor. Quoted:
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Experience wise, Haley is the only one of those 3 that's been in a gunfight. If you're looking to learn how to fight with a gun and not just look cool on the range, the instructor needs to have been there, otherwise thy're just regurgitating something someone else said. I'm not saying that the other 2 are bad instructors, they just don't have any credability talking about something they've never experienced. How do you know this? Can you please quote the verifiable source? Really? Is google broken? Travis spent time in Marine Recon and was in Iraq with BlackWater in 04-05, for starters. When your google works again, just search under those words. |
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I don't feel someone has to have killed someone in order to be a good instructor. I've trained with both. One, who was one of the best instructors I've ever worked with, has been forced to shoot 2 people in self defense outside of his LE work. Actually, it was before he became an LEO. But, he has never told his students about it. I know just because I've become friends with him. The last thing he'll ever do is brag about his shootings. He didn't instruct "tactical" classes. Instead, it was a fundamentals based course, which I think the OP would benefit from more at his experience level. You really need to learn the fundamentals first. And, if you go into a higher speed class, the instructor can only instruct to the lowest skill level in the class, which will prevent other paying students from getting the most out of the course.
Another instructor I worked with put on an outstanding snub nose revolver fighting class. He's never killed anyone, but it was one of the best classes I've ever taken. On the other end of the spectrum, I took a few classes locally, because they were inexpensive and figured I could at least gain a little out of them. I went into them not expecting much. The instructor, who worked for an AR manufacturer who now has ended their LE Training Dept, began every class by telling the class how many people he's shot when he worked for a govt agency, and went around the class asking everyone how many shootings they were involved in. I thought that conversation would go somewhere, but it didn't. He just wanted to brag, I guess. His handgun classes were OK, but his carbine class sucked. He taught you that you don't reload your carbine, ever, and always go to your handgun, even if there is a lullin the action. His "theory" was that by the time you reloaded, everything would be over since "gunfights don't last long". He correctly stressed muzzle discipline, but he always told people to watch their muzzles or "I'll get my Commandah out of the truck". I never base my decision to attend or not attend a class on how many gunfights the instructor has experienced. |
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Take as many classes as you can, Travis teaches things that Steve and Chris do not, and vice versa.
I have trained with Steve and drank booze with Steve, and yes he is very blunt if you are fucked up he'll let you know so that you can make corrections and keep on trucking. I am not the sensitive type to get butt hurt when he does speak his mind, it's not personal it's just how it is, you can either learn from it or get your panties in a wadd. I have attended a lot of Costa classes, both magpul and Ludus, Chris has restructured his class a lot lately, it's much more marksmanship based, with longer ranges put into place, it's not the burn a target down at 5 yards type class. There is some of that but I would say nearly 50% of your shots are taken at over 50 yards. I find the "combat experience" stuff is fine and all but it's really about the instructor, can they articulate info in a way that's easy for students to comprehend and then put into action. I know some 0311's with combat experience who are fucking retards and couldn't teach a 3 year old to tie his shoes. I'd take a Steve Fisher or a Chris Costa over them anyway and twice on a Sunday. In the end, if you are forced into a gunfight,I say forced because most of us don't go on Direct Action missions, will you have the fundamentals of marksmanship, drawing a weapon from concealment, moving and shooting and the situational awareness in order to triumph in the face of evil. There are lots of good nsfructores out there. Kyle Lamb, Pat Rogers, Chris Costa, Travis Haley, Steve Fisher, Stephan Pineau, Larry Vickers, Kyle Defoor, the list goes on and on. Train with all of them. |
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To dovetail off of what Sam just said above, quality instruction is obviously what you are looking for here.
You said you were a "novice shooter" or words to that effect, so my question to you is: What is it you are looking for in an instructor? and, In your mind the first 3 names that popped into your head for instructors was Travis Haley, Chris Costa, or Steve Fisher? Here's what I'm trying to say: Slow down. I am an "Original Magpul" Alumni of some note and have a lengthy list of credentials from the .mil and NRA LE Division. I have nothing but respect for Chris and Travis and I consider them friends. Steve has never met me in "real life" so he continues to ignore my Facebook requests, but we do make fun of Steve Pineau together, so that will have to do for now. 
ANYWAY, probably the biggest jump I made in my life as a student of firearms was when I began taking courses from Larry Vickers and got exposure to a very different philosophy and outlook (as compared to Magpul Dynamics). I also got exposed to other instructors out there in the world who have the "total package"–– Tier One SOC Unit credentials, real world Trigger Time, strong base of experience in the competition world, AND (most important) the ability to actually instruct. With that, you should take a hard look at yourself, analyze what it is that you REALLY NEED not what you REALLY WANT and begin to pick your instructors. There is plenty of time to get Dynamically Disruptive with Travis, or to learn the Art of the Beard from Costa, or to develop the machinegun finger like Steve. Those guys are established and are not going anywhere. I just recommend you start by learning to be brilliant in the basics, solidify your fundamentals, and develop your own personal skill set. Also to agree with Sam, take courses from ALL OF THEM. Larry Vickers, Mike Lamb, Pat Rogers, Dave Harrington, Ken Hackathorn, Rob Haught, Troy Price, Kyle DeFoor, Jason Falla, Kyle Lamb, Costa, Haley, and/or Fisher. You will only benefit from the diversity. Stay in the Fight, Keep on the Attack. |
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If you ever get the chance, attend a class taught by Bruce Gray called "Practical Fundamentals". It will be the best learning experience you could have. Not just because you are a fairly inexperienced shooter. But because it really doesn't make any sense to take a class where they teach fairly dynamic, fast, dump a lot of ammo type of drills before you haven't really mastered (if anyone really can master) the basics.
Bruce has reorganized the training portion of his business from Gray Guns to OpSpec Training. |
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To dovetail off of what Sam just said above, quality instruction is obviously what you are looking for here. You said you were a "novice shooter" or words to that effect, so my question to you is: What is it you are looking for in an instructor? and, In your mind the first 3 names that popped into your head for instructors was Travis Haley, Chris Costa, or Steve Fisher? Here's what I'm trying to say: Slow down. I am an "Original Magpul" Alumni of some note and have a lengthy list of credentials from the .mil and NRA LE Division. I have nothing but respect for Chris and Travis and I consider them friends. Steve has never met me in "real life" so he continues to ignore my Facebook requests, but we do make fun of Steve Pineau together, so that will have to do for now.
ANYWAY, probably the biggest jump I made in my life as a student of firearms was when I began taking courses from Larry Vickers and got exposure to a very different philosophy and outlook (as compared to Magpul Dynamics). I also got exposed to other instructors out there in the world who have the "total package"–– Tier One SOC Unit credentials, real world Trigger Time, strong base of experience in the competition world, AND (most important) the ability to actually instruct. With that, you should take a hard look at yourself, analyze what it is that you REALLY NEED not what you REALLY WANT and begin to pick your instructors. There is plenty of time to get Dynamically Disruptive with Travis, or to learn the Art of the Beard from Costa, or to develop the machinegun finger like Steve. Those guys are established and are not going anywhere. I just recommend you start by learning to be brilliant in the basics, solidify your fundamentals, and develop your own personal skill set. Also to agree with Sam, take courses from ALL OF THEM. Larry Vickers, Mike Lamb, Pat Rogers, Dave Harrington, Ken Hackathorn, Rob Haught, Troy Price, Kyle DeFoor, Jason Falla, Kyle Lamb, Costa, Haley, and/or Fisher. You will only benefit from the diversity. Stay in the Fight, Keep on the Attack. Interesting Jim, Steve gives me the cold shoulder as well. |
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To dovetail off of what Sam just said above, quality instruction is obviously what you are looking for here. You said you were a "novice shooter" or words to that effect, so my question to you is: What is it you are looking for in an instructor? and, In your mind the first 3 names that popped into your head for instructors was Travis Haley, Chris Costa, or Steve Fisher? Here's what I'm trying to say: Slow down. I am an "Original Magpul" Alumni of some note and have a lengthy list of credentials from the .mil and NRA LE Division. I have nothing but respect for Chris and Travis and I consider them friends. Steve has never met me in "real life" so he continues to ignore my Facebook requests, but we do make fun of Steve Pineau together, so that will have to do for now.
ANYWAY, probably the biggest jump I made in my life as a student of firearms was when I began taking courses from Larry Vickers and got exposure to a very different philosophy and outlook (as compared to Magpul Dynamics). I also got exposed to other instructors out there in the world who have the "total package"–– Tier One SOC Unit credentials, real world Trigger Time, strong base of experience in the competition world, AND (most important) the ability to actually instruct. With that, you should take a hard look at yourself, analyze what it is that you REALLY NEED not what you REALLY WANT and begin to pick your instructors. There is plenty of time to get Dynamically Disruptive with Travis, or to learn the Art of the Beard from Costa, or to develop the machinegun finger like Steve. Those guys are established and are not going anywhere. I just recommend you start by learning to be brilliant in the basics, solidify your fundamentals, and develop your own personal skill set. Also to agree with Sam, take courses from ALL OF THEM. Larry Vickers, Mike Lamb, Pat Rogers, Dave Harrington, Ken Hackathorn, Rob Haught, Troy Price, Kyle DeFoor, Jason Falla, Kyle Lamb, Costa, Haley, and/or Fisher. You will only benefit from the diversity. Stay in the Fight, Keep on the Attack. Interesting Jim, Steve gives me the cold shoulder as well. i hate you both |
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To dovetail off of what Sam just said above, quality instruction is obviously what you are looking for here. You said you were a "novice shooter" or words to that effect, so my question to you is: What is it you are looking for in an instructor? and, In your mind the first 3 names that popped into your head for instructors was Travis Haley, Chris Costa, or Steve Fisher? Here's what I'm trying to say: Slow down. I am an "Original Magpul" Alumni of some note and have a lengthy list of credentials from the .mil and NRA LE Division. I have nothing but respect for Chris and Travis and I consider them friends. Steve has never met me in "real life" so he continues to ignore my Facebook requests, but we do make fun of Steve Pineau together, so that will have to do for now.
ANYWAY, probably the biggest jump I made in my life as a student of firearms was when I began taking courses from Larry Vickers and got exposure to a very different philosophy and outlook (as compared to Magpul Dynamics). I also got exposed to other instructors out there in the world who have the "total package"–– Tier One SOC Unit credentials, real world Trigger Time, strong base of experience in the competition world, AND (most important) the ability to actually instruct. With that, you should take a hard look at yourself, analyze what it is that you REALLY NEED not what you REALLY WANT and begin to pick your instructors. There is plenty of time to get Dynamically Disruptive with Travis, or to learn the Art of the Beard from Costa, or to develop the machinegun finger like Steve. Those guys are established and are not going anywhere. I just recommend you start by learning to be brilliant in the basics, solidify your fundamentals, and develop your own personal skill set. Also to agree with Sam, take courses from ALL OF THEM. Larry Vickers, Mike Lamb, Pat Rogers, Dave Harrington, Ken Hackathorn, Rob Haught, Troy Price, Kyle DeFoor, Jason Falla, Kyle Lamb, Costa, Haley, and/or Fisher. You will only benefit from the diversity. Stay in the Fight, Keep on the Attack. Interesting Jim, Steve gives me the cold shoulder as well. i hate you both UUUHHH WOW 
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To dovetail off of what Sam just said above, quality instruction is obviously what you are looking for here. You said you were a "novice shooter" or words to that effect, so my question to you is: What is it you are looking for in an instructor? and, In your mind the first 3 names that popped into your head for instructors was Travis Haley, Chris Costa, or Steve Fisher? Here's what I'm trying to say: Slow down. I am an "Original Magpul" Alumni of some note and have a lengthy list of credentials from the .mil and NRA LE Division. I have nothing but respect for Chris and Travis and I consider them friends. Steve has never met me in "real life" so he continues to ignore my Facebook requests, but we do make fun of Steve Pineau together, so that will have to do for now.
ANYWAY, probably the biggest jump I made in my life as a student of firearms was when I began taking courses from Larry Vickers and got exposure to a very different philosophy and outlook (as compared to Magpul Dynamics). I also got exposed to other instructors out there in the world who have the "total package"–– Tier One SOC Unit credentials, real world Trigger Time, strong base of experience in the competition world, AND (most important) the ability to actually instruct. With that, you should take a hard look at yourself, analyze what it is that you REALLY NEED not what you REALLY WANT and begin to pick your instructors. There is plenty of time to get Dynamically Disruptive with Travis, or to learn the Art of the Beard from Costa, or to develop the machinegun finger like Steve. Those guys are established and are not going anywhere. I just recommend you start by learning to be brilliant in the basics, solidify your fundamentals, and develop your own personal skill set. Also to agree with Sam, take courses from ALL OF THEM. Larry Vickers, Mike Lamb, Pat Rogers, Dave Harrington, Ken Hackathorn, Rob Haught, Troy Price, Kyle DeFoor, Jason Falla, Kyle Lamb, Costa, Haley, and/or Fisher. You will only benefit from the diversity. Stay in the Fight, Keep on the Attack. Interesting Jim, Steve gives me the cold shoulder as well. i hate you both The truth hurts sometimes Steve, but believe me I'll always give it to you straight, you ugly mongoloid. |
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To dovetail off of what Sam just said above, quality instruction is obviously what you are looking for here. You said you were a "novice shooter" or words to that effect, so my question to you is: What is it you are looking for in an instructor? and, In your mind the first 3 names that popped into your head for instructors was Travis Haley, Chris Costa, or Steve Fisher? Here's what I'm trying to say: Slow down. I am an "Original Magpul" Alumni of some note and have a lengthy list of credentials from the .mil and NRA LE Division. I have nothing but respect for Chris and Travis and I consider them friends. Steve has never met me in "real life" so he continues to ignore my Facebook requests, but we do make fun of Steve Pineau together, so that will have to do for now.
ANYWAY, probably the biggest jump I made in my life as a student of firearms was when I began taking courses from Larry Vickers and got exposure to a very different philosophy and outlook (as compared to Magpul Dynamics). I also got exposed to other instructors out there in the world who have the "total package"–– Tier One SOC Unit credentials, real world Trigger Time, strong base of experience in the competition world, AND (most important) the ability to actually instruct. With that, you should take a hard look at yourself, analyze what it is that you REALLY NEED not what you REALLY WANT and begin to pick your instructors. There is plenty of time to get Dynamically Disruptive with Travis, or to learn the Art of the Beard from Costa, or to develop the machinegun finger like Steve. Those guys are established and are not going anywhere. I just recommend you start by learning to be brilliant in the basics, solidify your fundamentals, and develop your own personal skill set. Also to agree with Sam, take courses from ALL OF THEM. Larry Vickers, Mike Lamb, Pat Rogers, Dave Harrington, Ken Hackathorn, Rob Haught, Troy Price, Kyle DeFoor, Jason Falla, Kyle Lamb, Costa, Haley, and/or Fisher. You will only benefit from the diversity. Stay in the Fight, Keep on the Attack. Interesting Jim, Steve gives me the cold shoulder as well. i hate you both The truth hurts sometimes Steve, but believe me I'll always give it to you straight, you ugly mongoloid. I love you both ok ill friend you on facebook jessh |
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To dovetail off of what Sam just said above, quality instruction is obviously what you are looking for here. You said you were a "novice shooter" or words to that effect, so my question to you is: What is it you are looking for in an instructor? and, In your mind the first 3 names that popped into your head for instructors was Travis Haley, Chris Costa, or Steve Fisher? Here's what I'm trying to say: Slow down. I am an "Original Magpul" Alumni of some note and have a lengthy list of credentials from the .mil and NRA LE Division. I have nothing but respect for Chris and Travis and I consider them friends. Steve has never met me in "real life" so he continues to ignore my Facebook requests, but we do make fun of Steve Pineau together, so that will have to do for now.
ANYWAY, probably the biggest jump I made in my life as a student of firearms was when I began taking courses from Larry Vickers and got exposure to a very different philosophy and outlook (as compared to Magpul Dynamics). I also got exposed to other instructors out there in the world who have the "total package"–– Tier One SOC Unit credentials, real world Trigger Time, strong base of experience in the competition world, AND (most important) the ability to actually instruct. With that, you should take a hard look at yourself, analyze what it is that you REALLY NEED not what you REALLY WANT and begin to pick your instructors. There is plenty of time to get Dynamically Disruptive with Travis, or to learn the Art of the Beard from Costa, or to develop the machinegun finger like Steve. Those guys are established and are not going anywhere. I just recommend you start by learning to be brilliant in the basics, solidify your fundamentals, and develop your own personal skill set. Also to agree with Sam, take courses from ALL OF THEM. Larry Vickers, Mike Lamb, Pat Rogers, Dave Harrington, Ken Hackathorn, Rob Haught, Troy Price, Kyle DeFoor, Jason Falla, Kyle Lamb, Costa, Haley, and/or Fisher. You will only benefit from the diversity. Stay in the Fight, Keep on the Attack. Interesting Jim, Steve gives me the cold shoulder as well. Waiting for this thread to devolve into jokes about my mom..... |
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To dovetail off of what Sam just said above, quality instruction is obviously what you are looking for here. You said you were a "novice shooter" or words to that effect, so my question to you is: What is it you are looking for in an instructor? and, In your mind the first 3 names that popped into your head for instructors was Travis Haley, Chris Costa, or Steve Fisher? Here's what I'm trying to say: Slow down. I am an "Original Magpul" Alumni of some note and have a lengthy list of credentials from the .mil and NRA LE Division. I have nothing but respect for Chris and Travis and I consider them friends. Steve has never met me in "real life" so he continues to ignore my Facebook requests, but we do make fun of Steve Pineau together, so that will have to do for now.
ANYWAY, probably the biggest jump I made in my life as a student of firearms was when I began taking courses from Larry Vickers and got exposure to a very different philosophy and outlook (as compared to Magpul Dynamics). I also got exposed to other instructors out there in the world who have the "total package"–– Tier One SOC Unit credentials, real world Trigger Time, strong base of experience in the competition world, AND (most important) the ability to actually instruct. With that, you should take a hard look at yourself, analyze what it is that you REALLY NEED not what you REALLY WANT and begin to pick your instructors. There is plenty of time to get Dynamically Disruptive with Travis, or to learn the Art of the Beard from Costa, or to develop the machinegun finger like Steve. Those guys are established and are not going anywhere. I just recommend you start by learning to be brilliant in the basics, solidify your fundamentals, and develop your own personal skill set. Also to agree with Sam, take courses from ALL OF THEM. Larry Vickers, Mike Lamb, Pat Rogers, Dave Harrington, Ken Hackathorn, Rob Haught, Troy Price, Kyle DeFoor, Jason Falla, Kyle Lamb, Costa, Haley, and/or Fisher. You will only benefit from the diversity. Stay in the Fight, Keep on the Attack. Interesting Jim, Steve gives me the cold shoulder as well. Waiting for this thread to devolve into jokes about my mom..... [/qu hummmmm |
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Just finished Magpul handgun 1 in Pueblo CO. As expected, awesome instruction! Steve Fisher is a no bullshit, straight up instructor. The fundamentals are drilled into you from day 1 and you quickly realize that you aren't going to get away from them no matter what exercise you are doing. You could see everyone improve, no matter what level they started at. He and his new co-instructor really took time to evaluate each student individually and help them fix whatever part of the fundamentals they are not performing correctly. He also added some friendly competition during the 3 days, which helped us put all of the fundamentals together while building commaraderie and confidence in the group. Can't wait for handgun 2 in Longmont CO in October!
Ruben Self appointed leader of Cookies N Porn |
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Just finished Magpul handgun 1 in Pueblo CO. As expected, awesome instruction! Steve Fisher is a no bullshit, straight up instructor. The fundamentals are drilled into you from day 1 and you quickly realize that you aren't going to get away from them no matter what exercise you are doing. You could see everyone improve, no matter what level they started at. He and his new co-instructor really took time to evaluate each student individually and help them fix whatever part of the fundamentals they are not performing correctly. He also added some friendly competition during the 3 days, which helped us put all of the fundamentals together while building commaraderie and confidence in the group. Can't wait for handgun 2 in Longmont CO in October! Ruben Self appointed leader of Cookies N Porn Hey bro don't derail this thread we are talking about Pineau's mom now, take your factual informative right up to GD. Lolz. |
| There is no teaching the dynamics of combat, there is no situation that is the same twice, PERIOD. You learn the fundamentals and hone your skills from there. There are Do's and Dont's that don't change regardless of the situation and there are Do's and Dont's that DO change because of the situation, but you can't learn that from anything but experience. I believe any of these guys can teach you what you need to know to use your carbine or pistol effectively in a defensive situation, but don't expect to train for 2 days and walk away thinking you are a ninja. |
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There is no teaching the dynamics of combat, there is no situation that is the same twice, PERIOD. You learn the fundamentals and hone your skills from there. There are Do's and Dont's that don't change regardless of the situation and there are Do's and Dont's that DO change because of the situation, but you can't learn that from anything but experience. I believe any of these guys can teach you what you need to know to use your carbine or pistol effectively in a defensive situation, but don't expect to train for 2 days and walk away thinking you are a ninja. I don't believe anyone of these guys claims that they will turn you into a ninja in a class or two, nor should anybody think that they will. I've been shooting for many many years, shot well over 100,000 rounds in just a few years, and I still have my doubts if I was to get into a gun fight about my effectiveness. Also Pineau's mom is still HAWT!!! |
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Thanks for posting that link. I read through and in a general sense, agree with what he said, but he does paint with a wide brush. I've trained with all kinds of instructors. One of the best technical shooting instructors I've ever worked with was an experienced LEO who had been involved in two shootings. He never told his students about it, never bragged about it, and only found out after becoming friends with him. Yes, he has shot people, but he doesn't teach "tactical" classes. Then there's another instructor I've trained with. He's taught handgun and knife skills to everyone from Joe Citizen to Special Ops and CIA. He's never had to take anyone's life, either on the job or off. According to Paul Howe, he should not be considered for "tactical" (that term is WAY overused) training. Then there's another trainer that a major firearms manufacturer fired a few years back. He opened his classes by telling his students that he's killed people, and went around the class asking everyone how many people they had killed. And if he saw someone with poor muzzle discipline, he would announce to the class that if it kept up, he would "go get the Commandah out of the truck". This instructor, who was an instructor for a Federal agency, said that reloading your carbine is an administrative function and is never done in the middle of a fight. No matter what, you ALWAYS transition to a handgun. And, "sights come on and safeties come off 2 blocks away from the location". It must be nice to always know when you will need your rifle, huh? My point is that, as much as what Mr. Howe said may be true in a general sense, there are a lot of exemptions. Someone who strictly follows his guidelines could be missing out on some excellent, worthwhile training. Some may say that I don't know what makes a good instructor since I've never killed anyone. Maybe so. Before being injured, I as an LEO, and there are two assholes out there that probably have no idea how close to being ventilated they were. But at the last split second, I thankfully didn't have to shoot. I hope I never have to, either at work or outside of the job. Does that make me a poor instructor? Maybe to some, and honestly, I don't care. People are happy with the level of instruction I give them. No matter who the instructor is, get references. All it takes for some people is to attend a class, run around and dump 1000 rounds downrange. Some of the best classes I've attended had round counts as low as 200, but the info passed on from the instructors was excellent. I'm sure there are some who wouldn't like the class because they were going home with ammo. I guess what I'm trying to say, in a very long winded way, is that you have to consider each instructor individually. Generalizations just don't work. In theory, I can agree with Mr. Howe, but in reality, it doesn't mirror my experiences. |
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To dovetail off of what Sam just said above, quality instruction is obviously what you are looking for here. You said you were a "novice shooter" or words to that effect, so my question to you is: What is it you are looking for in an instructor? and, In your mind the first 3 names that popped into your head for instructors was Travis Haley, Chris Costa, or Steve Fisher? Here's what I'm trying to say: Slow down. I am an "Original Magpul" Alumni of some note and have a lengthy list of credentials from the .mil and NRA LE Division. I have nothing but respect for Chris and Travis and I consider them friends. Steve has never met me in "real life" so he continues to ignore my Facebook requests, but we do make fun of Steve Pineau together, so that will have to do for now.
ANYWAY, probably the biggest jump I made in my life as a student of firearms was when I began taking courses from Larry Vickers and got exposure to a very different philosophy and outlook (as compared to Magpul Dynamics). I also got exposed to other instructors out there in the world who have the "total package"–– Tier One SOC Unit credentials, real world Trigger Time, strong base of experience in the competition world, AND (most important) the ability to actually instruct. With that, you should take a hard look at yourself, analyze what it is that you REALLY NEED not what you REALLY WANT and begin to pick your instructors. There is plenty of time to get Dynamically Disruptive with Travis, or to learn the Art of the Beard from Costa, or to develop the machinegun finger like Steve. Those guys are established and are not going anywhere. I just recommend you start by learning to be brilliant in the basics, solidify your fundamentals, and develop your own personal skill set. Also to agree with Sam, take courses from ALL OF THEM. Larry Vickers, Mike Lamb, Pat Rogers, Dave Harrington, Ken Hackathorn, Rob Haught, Troy Price, Kyle DeFoor, Jason Falla, Kyle Lamb, Costa, Haley, and/or Fisher. You will only benefit from the diversity. Stay in the Fight, Keep on the Attack. Interesting Jim, Steve gives me the cold shoulder as well. i hate you both 
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None of the above Vickers and Lamb proved themselfs on the battlefield and as instructors, their credentials are second to none. What does that have to do with teaching someone how to shoot a gun? Read my post 4 above yours. I totally agree with you. |
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I would recommend Haley, not necessarily because of him (although he is a good instructor) but his AI, Brannon Lebouef. Brannon is also a former Marine, but the big thing is he's been a street cop for 10+ years in the New Orleans area, so he's seen plenty of violent crime and shootings.
The reality is handguns will mostly used in CCW and home defense scenarios, and there's three parts to them. The preparation part before, the actual shooting, and the aftermath(legal, mental) What's the point of learning to be a good shooter if you suck at the other 2? The preparation part before will help you win the gunfight, and the how you handle the aftermath can have legal and financial consequences. Brannon has great advice for handling both the before and after, from a LEO perspective which is invaluable to any private citizen who finds themselves in that situation. |