Posted: 7/13/2010 7:09:26 AM EDT
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Magazine Retention Reloads - Is there a better way?
As a shooter I have been taught various ways to perform the ‘magazine reload with retention’ also called the ‘Tactical Reload’. As a Police/SWAT Officer I have been required to perform it in training and qualifications. In competition it has been a required procedure in a stage. Do you practice this technique? Do you teach it? Should we? I would like to solicit opinions and feedback on this issue. When the idea of retaining partial magazines during a reload was introduced, the premise, as we all know, was that it would only be done during a ‘lull’ in the fight. Sadly what I have seen through the years is that it is often trained and practiced without simulating a true ‘lull’ (or better resolution of a threat). The consequence that I have seen is that shooters use it when facing a threat (both in training scenarios and in real life gunfights) because it has become a conditioned response. My concern is that this ‘reloading technique’ takes longer to perform than the speed reload, or slide lock reload, and requires more dexterity (hence more practice, hence more conditioning). I have a strong opinion on this issue but I wanted to get more thoughts from other shooters and trainers. |
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I, too, teach it as something done during a lull, from behind cover.
My personal rules: -Always carry at least one spare mag. -If it locks open, drop the mag (speed reload) even if not empty. Possibly a defective mag. -Reload from behind cover when there's a chance. -PRACTICE! Thanks, Lee |
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I come from a symmetrical and asymmetrical military background, and taught an asymmetrical military course for 3 years called "HRP". More info on my "background" can be found at my website linked below in my signature block. We do NOT teach retention reloads. This is the reason why:
Parameters: 1) our agents / marines / whatever you want to call yourself are ingrained to carry 3 magazines total. 2) our students are carrying concealed in an overseas country hostile / allied / neutral to the US 3) Gunfight happens, this is already a failure, because the best gunfight is the one you avoid. Gunfight is the last resort and our students are not pro actively looking to get into an engagement, rather they go through HRP because they need the skills in case of a criminal / terrorist attack on them is conducted and they need to fight their way to safety. We teach to use judgement rather than superior skills. Theories and Tactics: If a student gets into a gunfight and shoots a few rounds off (lets say 10ish), he/she is taught to conduct a reload when in transition to cover or concealment. The magazine is not retained ... why ? If a student does get into a gunfight he has 45 rounds to buy him enough TIME to get to safety. In the case of a criminal attack, the student can hope to neutralize the threat and then seek a safe house (like it sounds, a certain location that is "safe" and usually under the control of undercover authorities). If a terrorist attack happens, the student needs to conserve his TIME, for he will more than likely be way outnumbered and his goal is to inflict as much damage as possible to the threat, and survive the confrontation in the most aggressive manor. This includes using judgement to flee the area when an opportunity presents itself. If the shooter is feeling low on ammo, then they swap out magazines and keep putting those 9mm rounds in the correct place for that bad guy to stop being a threat. Retention reloads can cost you valuable time, and during stress "retention" sometimes becomes " fumbling" even with great practice. Sometimes you might be in the open and have to reload, don't waste TIME retaining that spare magazine, let it drop to the ground with those 2-3 rounds left in it and ensure your placement on those next rounds are were they need to be. We do have a reload parameter. Your reload should not take more than 1.5 seconds. That's bang (1.5 seconds of motion) bang at a distance of 10 yards while still hitting high center of the chest. Of course we do emphasize that he best time to do a reload is when you are moving from a best available location to another, or while you are transitioning through cover. The key to our survivability is constant moving while placing well aimed shots at the high center of the chest. (NOT center mass). After the gunfight happens you can just as easily get more magazines. MILGROUP usually has a crapton of them. In a criminal scenario, after the gunfight the student will get his/her magazines from the authorities. I have only shot my handgun once in combat and I did perform a non retention reload after I shot off 10ish rounds. In Iraq I conducted a reload just once with my m16A4 during fighting. I had conducted reloads after the fight, but just once during. I was in front of a sand dune and the vehicle to the left of me was barreling down on my position (we had just been hit by a vehicle suicide bomber like 1 min ago while we were patrolling in an-bar). I emptied what felt like 20+ rounds into the doors of the vehicle, then did a reload letting my partially filled mag drop to the ground, I then continued to engage the doors until the car stopped. I was on a laying/sitting position in front of that sand dune, as I had just been hit by shrapnel to my head by the suicide bomber and was just coming to. I am not sure if the man was dead by the time I had to reload. I also have no doubt that by not retaining that magazine I saved potentially valuable time to that man's ability to explode himself. |
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Thank you both for your replies, I hope more weigh in...
My concern with the retention techniques is this … The ‘reload with retention’ is a tactic that is challenging to master, and therefore requires more practice. My fear is that all of the extra practice makes this the reflexive response when needing to reload, even though this is not the intent of the training. It is the slowest reload. As we know, the shooter in a stressful situation will not make cognitive choices. I have two examples where the reload with retention is performed without the shooter ‘choosing it’. I spoke with an Officer, about a shooting he was in. He had ten years of narcotics experience but was new to Patrol. From narcotics he had plenty of experience with high risk enforcement. While in his patrol field training, He stopped a car on traffic and the violator immediately opened fire on him and his Field Training Officer. He responded appropriately with deadly force ultimately eliminating the threat. He thought he only fired a few rounds, but discovered that after the shooting was over, there was an empty pistol magazine in his waistband. He fired more than he thought (common) shooting the pistol to slide lock. He obviously performed the retention subconsciously, as a result of training, and did not make any cognitive choice regarding any type of reload. There was clearly no ‘lull’. My second example isn’t one incident but an observation... On the range during training I have observed experienced shooters either retain empty magazines during a slide lock reload, or start to, pulling them out with the support hand to check and see if they are empty before discarding them. The retention reload has conditioned a needless concern over the magazine being released. In my experience as a student, the lull is usually ‘stated’ but not simulated. I believe this is a serious omission with the technique. I also feel that if there really is a lull, i.e. no threats, and (I like that Lee added, that you have cover), then one could reload quickly (no retention) and if there is still no threat, recover/consolidate mags after. I think the problem is that it is taught and practiced as a reloading technique. In the past few years, an Instructor, I have chosen not to teach the retention reload technique. Noel your training sounds very unique and interesting. Also thank you for sharing the combat experience. I agree that not taking precious seconds 'retaining' got you back in the fight quicker. |
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My opinion is that it should be practiced and mastered...as a final step before re-holstering. Why put a partial or empty gun back in the holster?
Practicing it this way would ensure that it is practiced in a "lull" but still allows the skill to be learned. Incidentally, current IDPA recommendation for course design is to allow tactical reloads off the clock. This creates the "lull" that you want. Whether stage designers follow that recommendation is another matter. What techniques to teach depends upon the target audience, the class goals and the time available. To say teaching tactical reloads is bad per se is too simplistic. IMHO. Gringop |
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My opinion is that it should be practiced and mastered...as a final step before re-holstering. Why put a partial or empty gun back in the holster? +1 Most definitely agree that you should always have a topped off gun before re holstering. I would retain that mag in my pocket. Technically that would be considered a tactical reload, but I was more under the impression that the question was of "during the gunfight" I furethermore whole heartadly agree that everything depends on your audience. Good insights gingop. As far as competition ... well I do shoot ipsc, I am a B shooter in production trying to fight for my A card right now =P. I do however, leave the competition stuff at the competition range. I do not teach competition, and solely teach gunfighting. I have shot IDPA as well and was an "expert" when I shot the qual course. By no means do I feel this means anything at all since no one is shooting back at me. I believe IPSC or IDPA are both games. I treat them as such, it is just fun with guns. I do not draw much real world or tactical decisions based on my competition experience. I don't want to get into a rant, but competition does make you shoot better, but not decide better. Even IDPA rules are not tactical at all since they are inherently rules and not guidelines. |
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If you need more bullets in your gun, it will be in one of two scenarios IMO:
1. RIGHT FUCKING NOW!!! Hence the slide lock reload. 2. Because there is a lull in the fighting, and you are behind cover and reasonably sure there is no immediate threat. Hence the tac reload/ reload w/ retention. I see no reason in complicating it any further. Just my 2 cents. Jay |
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Perhaps I did not clarify the context well enough, I intended to frame the discussion in the context of self defense / gunfighting (although I included a competion example in the beginning).
I would agree that after the fight is over, reloading makes sense before holstering, but again if we are holstering, the fight is over. I can do that administratively. The examples I shared were to show that what we condition ourselves to do during training comes out, often without a cognitive choice, during stress. Based on that and the added consumption of precious time during a fight, I choose not to 'practice' it. If there realy is a lull then I don't need a 'quick' technique for it. If I am safe; I can pick it up off the ground. Also If I don't ever train to reach for a mag in my pocket, I probably won't think of reaching there for that 'retained mag' under stress. Competition is a different arena altogether. I am very impressed with the speed and marksmanship of competitive shooters. I just have to be careful what I 'program in' and as an Instructor what I pass on to my students. |
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If you need more bullets in your gun, it will be in one of two scenarios IMO: 1. RIGHT FUCKING NOW!!! Hence the slide lock reload. 2. Because there is a lull in the fighting, and you are behind cover and reasonably sure there is no immediate threat. Hence the tac reload/ reload w/ retention. I see no reason in complicating it any further. Just my 2 cents. Jay I guess I disagree then, there is also the oh no I have been shooting, and I want to top off my magazine as I shoot or move to X location. Lets go ahead and do a magazine exchange and let that mag with a couple rounds drop to the ground. I am by no means a combat expert, but I have been in a couple gunfights. I have done magazine exchanges to continue shooting while minimizing time not shooting =P. |
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I come from a symmetrical and asymmetrical military background, and taught an asymmetrical military course for 3 years called "HRP". More info on my "background" can be found at my website linked below in my signature block. We do NOT teach retention reloads. This is the reason why: Parameters: 1) our agents / marines / whatever you want to call yourself are ingrained to carry 3 magazines total. 2) our students are carrying concealed in an overseas country hostile / allied / neutral to the US 3) Gunfight happens, this is already a failure, because the best gunfight is the one you avoid. Gunfight is the last resort and our students are not pro actively looking to get into an engagement, rather they go through HRP because they need the skills in case of a criminal / terrorist attack on them is conducted and they need to fight their way to safety. We teach to use judgement rather than superior skills. Theories and Tactics: If a student gets into a gunfight and shoots a few rounds off (lets say 10ish), he/she is taught to conduct a reload when in transition to cover or concealment. The magazine is not retained ... why ? If a student does get into a gunfight he has 45 rounds to buy him enough TIME to get to safety. In the case of a criminal attack, the student can hope to neutralize the threat and then seek a safe house (like it sounds, a certain location that is "safe" and usually under the control of undercover authorities). If a terrorist attack happens, the student needs to conserve his TIME, for he will more than likely be way outnumbered and his goal is to inflict as much damage as possible to the threat, and survive the confrontation in the most aggressive manor. This includes using judgement to flee the area when an opportunity presents itself. If the shooter is feeling low on ammo, then they swap out magazines and keep putting those 9mm rounds in the correct place for that bad guy to stop being a threat. Retention reloads can cost you valuable time, and during stress "retention" sometimes becomes " fumbling" even with great practice. Sometimes you might be in the open and have to reload, don't waste TIME retaining that spare magazine, let it drop to the ground with those 2-3 rounds left in it and ensure your placement on those next rounds are were they need to be. We do have a reload parameter. Your reload should not take more than 1.5 seconds. That's bang (1.5 seconds of motion) bang at a distance of 10 yards while still hitting high center of the chest. Of course we do emphasize that he best time to do a reload is when you are moving from a best available location to another, or while you are transitioning through cover. The key to our survivability is constant moving while placing well aimed shots at the high center of the chest. (NOT center mass). After the gunfight happens you can just as easily get more magazines. MILGROUP usually has a crapton of them. In a criminal scenario, after the gunfight the student will get his/her magazines from the authorities. I have only shot my handgun once in combat and I did perform a non retention reload after I shot off 10ish rounds. In Iraq I conducted a reload just once with my m16A4 during fighting. I had conducted reloads after the fight, but just once during. I was in front of a sand dune and the vehicle to the left of me was barreling down on my position (we had just been hit by a vehicle suicide bomber like 1 min ago while we were patrolling in an-bar). I emptied what felt like 20+ rounds into the doors of the vehicle, then did a reload letting my partially filled mag drop to the ground, I then continued to engage the doors until the car stopped. I was on a laying/sitting position in front of that sand dune, as I had just been hit by shrapnel to my head by the suicide bomber and was just coming to. I am not sure if the man was dead by the time I had to reload. I also have no doubt that by not retaining that magazine I saved potentially valuable time to that man's ability to explode himself. QFT. Brilliant! Thanks, Lee |
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<=== Not a combat instructor, just a competitor...
I have practiced tactical reloads for one reason: CIPSC in Havana, IL. It's one place I shoot where there is a ton of sand. Not as much sand as IraQ, obviously, but enough to jam up my gun if I drop mags in it, especially since I habitually shoot all of my guns wet [including Glocks!!!]. The other problem I have is I get fired up in stages and tend to lose count of rounds, so reloads are more important fo rme than for someone that KNOWS FOR A FACT they have 3 rounds left. I have a bad habit of ending up at the last array needing 6 rounds and only having 5... That said, I have found I am faster, dropping the mag into my hand, carrying it down to my belt, pull mag #2, stick mag #1 in the pouch, then stuff mag #2 into the gun. With a rifle, it's about a wash, I am faster that way with hard [kydex pouches] but with soft pouches, I am up a creek, they just don't go fast. If I had a dump pouch, that's where the #1 mag would go. Grabbing #2 first seems to be the way everyone else does it, but that forces you into an extra movement from the gun to the belt. I will be the first to admit, however that the gun spends more time with no magazine that way [seems important if someone is shooting back]. The consolation is that it is faster to abandon the tactical reload and transition to a speed reload if there *is* someone shooting back and you experience a fumble moment or need to speed up your reload in process. |
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Virg Tactical,good advice.Just one question.You mention keep moving while placing shots at high center instead of center mass.Why.Is it because bad guys may be wearing body armor?
I have a few students that are overweight and old.They dont like to move.They say if you are accurate with your first shots you dont have to worry about it.What is a good come back for them.They are not LEO. Thanks |
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Virg Tactical,good advice.Just one question.You mention keep moving while placing shots at high center instead of center mass.Why.Is it because bad guys may be wearing body armor? I have a few students that are overweight and old.They dont like to move.They say if you are accurate with your first shots you dont have to worry about it.What is a good come back for them.They are not LEO. Thanks The "comeback" such as it is, is "That's a fine plan...but you know what happens to plans when the shooting starts..." show them a few cop-shooting vids and point out that the Cops are Trained and Expecting trouble, and still miss as much as they hit when it's for real... Adrenaline is a motherfucker.. |
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Virg Tactical,good advice.Just one question.You mention keep moving while placing shots at high center instead of center mass.Why.Is it because bad guys may be wearing body armor? Disclaimer: The military definition of neutralize a threat is different than the civilian term! So this is a huge issue as a trainer in the military, and now a trainer to civilians as well. Why not "center mass"? Center mass is commonly located the center of the torso. In the Marine Corps the center mass we aim for is a huge circle right about center of the torso. This means that I am aiming at the biggest chunk right? Well ... yes you are .. but what are you hitting? With a center mass hit under stress, students will yak on that trigger or anticipate and commonly shoot the intestinal regions, that provide it difficult to neutralize the threat. Even with a shot to the liver, a human being can survive very long before actually dying to his wounds. The center of the torso is usually the bottom of the lungs, and there are some vital organs there as well. Under stress you are going to shoot faster and experience a myriad of things which include loss of motor functions, but more importantly loss of vision and a spike in chemicals that will make you faster and stronger. You are going to slap the every living sh*t of your trigger and shoot faster than your capability. This means your shots are going to usually land slightly below your aiming area. EVEN at 3 yards. So if you have your shooters aim high center chest, his shots will land in the center of the heart and the top part of the lungs with no trigger slapping or anticipation. If your student slaps the trigger or anticipates a little he still places his shots in lungs. So the bad guy chokes on his own blood, I usually call this a positive event. if you don't slap your trigger or anticipate then you are going to land your shots in the bad guy's heart, and he will have 15-20 seconds of life left in him with a 10mm incision in any of his ventricles or atriums. (source Kaiser Permanente, private hospital in NOVA) So where is my aiming area? ... Well all humans have 1 thing in common ... a collar on our shirts, yes even humans that wear man dresses. I always have my students aim at the collar of the shirt, or right below it. Its an easy to identify place to put your sights on, and just inches higher than a human heart. on some collars it is at heart level. Of course situation dictates and change your aim point accordingly. It is not because of body armor, that brings a whole different topic =) The topic is what should your shots look like? How many and were? Whats a good rhythm or shooting speed? I have a few students that are overweight and old.They dont like to move.They say if you are accurate with your first shots you dont have to worry about it.What is a good come back for them.They are not LEO.
Well the answer is actually a bit simple. Proximity negates skill, if your assailant is just 3 yards in front of you his measure of necessary skills to kill you are going to be quite low. he does not need to be very good at "shooting" (thats another topic in a whole ... what does good at shooting mean?). So for that larger, and too many happy meals student I would instill that he needs to be violent with a mix of smooth out of that holster to be able to deliver a high amount of shots high center chest on his assailant to survive. Even with a shot to the heart the bad guy has a potential of 15-20 second of life. His "will to fight" will determine if he takes advantage of that time frame. if your student would just draw and engage a few shots as he backpedals, he would bridge that gap and establish distance. Distance = Skill. Even backing up to 7 yards would require our gangbanger to have much better gun skills to hit us. Now you can cover 7 yards in 1.7 secs easily .... how about your engage your threat and backpedal to 10 yards? Took 2 seconds, and Mr. Scumbag has 15 seconds of fight in him ... time for you to ventilate that right atrium to speed up the loss of ATP in his muscles in order to cause a swift delivery to the rigor mortis fairy. In my former job as an HRP instructor, it is all about movement, and using angles to protect yourself in order to put a piece of cover in front of you. You can also use angles in the civilian world. Using angles of movements can obscure you from a certain death scenario. If you are up against 3 men in an alley, but you are not in the alley yet, you could engage 1 dude on the left and side step to the right behind the bottom of the L shape cover in front of you. Now this stops you from being seen by the other 2 bad guys, so they can't shoot at you. At this point you can back pedal while maintaining sights and gun on the alley opening until they come out, or until you have establish enough distance to use the Nike defense. Situation always dictates, and so does skill level. I might draw and engage three men, because I am nimble and shoot 3-4 times a week. If you are overweight and old it might benefit you to engage just 1 and move to an angle to provide yourself with cover since you are not so fast on the gun. DISCLAIMER: This is not legal advice, and by no means should you ever engage a human being with the intent to kill him, unless of course you are in the Military and it is within your Rules of Engagement. This is also not a replacement for a class or educative course in gunfighting. Hope my rant helped! I held back a ton of ranting ... |
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If you need more bullets in your gun, it will be in one of two scenarios IMO: 1. RIGHT FUCKING NOW!!! Hence the slide lock reload. 2. Because there is a lull in the fighting, and you are behind cover and reasonably sure there is no immediate threat. Hence the tac reload/ reload w/ retention. I see no reason in complicating it any further. Just my 2 cents. Jay I guess I disagree then, there is also the oh no I have been shooting, and I want to top off my magazine as I shoot or move to X location. Lets go ahead and do a magazine exchange and let that mag with a couple rounds drop to the ground. I am by no means a combat expert, but I have been in a couple gunfights. I have done magazine exchanges to continue shooting while minimizing time not shooting =P. I think that would fit under number 2, to an extent. Not necessarily behind cover but you aren't presented with an immediate threat. I have trouble expressing things in writing sometimes 
Jay ETA: Hoorah, from a fellow 0311 ETA2: Two Purple Hearts? |
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If you need more bullets in your gun, it will be in one of two scenarios IMO: 1. RIGHT FUCKING NOW!!! Hence the slide lock reload. 2. Because there is a lull in the fighting, and you are behind cover and reasonably sure there is no immediate threat. Hence the tac reload/ reload w/ retention. I see no reason in complicating it any further. Just my 2 cents. Jay I guess I disagree then, there is also the oh no I have been shooting, and I want to top off my magazine as I shoot or move to X location. Lets go ahead and do a magazine exchange and let that mag with a couple rounds drop to the ground. I am by no means a combat expert, but I have been in a couple gunfights. I have done magazine exchanges to continue shooting while minimizing time not shooting =P. I think that would fit under number 2, to an extent. Not necessarily behind cover but you aren't presented with an immediate threat. I have trouble expressing things in writing sometimes
Jay ETA: Hoorah, from a fellow 0311 ETA2: Two Purple Hearts? Yap it would to an extent, but I just believe that retention reloads are quite a bit complicated. I think they are so "situational dependent", that you really shouldn't train to it to a point. I conduct scenarios as part of my course curriculum, and that is when "retention reloads" really plays into affect. Depending on what the student will do and how many rounds fired. Not sure what ETA means .. but guessing thats me? Semper Fi! and yes, long time ago ... but yes. |
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i dont agree with just letting the magazine with rounds just fall to the ground.
my thoughts on this are that if you have time to perform a reload with out running out of ammo you have time to do a proper tactical reload. if someone is still shooting at you, you should still be shooting at them. or moving, or reloading. time, distance, and cover will dictate your tactical reloads. lets say i get into a gunfight and i shoot 10 rounds from my pistol and the threat goes down. if i eject my magazine and try to index a full one i now have 1 round in my gun versus 7 (i carry a glock) if an asshole pops up and i have to shoot him now im fucked. i fire that one round and then have to insert the fresh magazine, rack the slide and shoot. not to mention i just wasted 7 rounds. i didnt save time. now if i indexed a fresh magazine, eject/swap/insert. i didnt have just one round in my weapon for more than say a fraction of a second. if i have to now i can drop the partial if a bad guy shows up, throw it at someone, put it in my pocket, whatever. i didnt waste rounds and if its a covert op i didnt leave MORE evidence behind. i think there has to be a distinction between the speed and tactical relaod and that proper explanation of each and when they can be used is a better solution. |
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i think there has to be a distinction between the speed and tactical relaod and that proper explanation of each and when they can be used is a better solution. There is a distinction and any instructor worth their salt should recognize it. Personly, I leave the speed reload for IPSC. |
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i think there has to be a distinction between the speed and tactical relaod and that proper explanation of each and when they can be used is a better solution. There is a distinction and any instructor worth their salt should recognize it. Personly, I leave the speed reload for IPSC. +1 For sure on this one, except the speed reload part =). But alas we can't all agree, but thats a good thing! I have my reasons as stated above. Every instructor should address both, and give an explanation on his/her reasoning. |
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i think there has to be a distinction between the speed and tactical relaod and that proper explanation of each and when they can be used is a better solution. There is a distinction and any instructor worth their salt should recognize it. Personly, I leave the speed reload for IPSC. You dont teach or use a speed reload for combat? |
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i think there has to be a distinction between the speed and tactical relaod and that proper explanation of each and when they can be used is a better solution. There is a distinction and any instructor worth their salt should recognize it. Personly, I leave the speed reload for IPSC. You dont teach or use a speed reload for combat? Nope. I don't believe any dropping mags that still have rounds in them. If the mag hits the ground there is a variety of reasons you might not be able to recover the mag and make use of it later. When working with a limited number of mags, mag retention is essential IMO. If you are rolling with 15 mags it might be less of an issue |
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i think there has to be a distinction between the speed and tactical relaod and that proper explanation of each and when they can be used is a better solution. There is a distinction and any instructor worth their salt should recognize it. Personly, I leave the speed reload for IPSC. You dont teach or use a speed reload for combat? Nope. I don't believe any dropping mags that still have rounds in them. If the mag hits the ground there is a variety of reasons you might not be able to recover the mag and make use of it later. When working with a limited number of mags, mag retention is essential IMO. If you are rolling with 15 mags it might be less of an issue what do you teach when the weapon goes to slide lock? the reason i ask is because ive NEVER heard of a speed reload with rounds still in a magazine. i cant get my head wrapped around that. thats what tactical reloads are for. but a speed reload with rounds still in the magazine is...............yeah. thanks for your answer, im learning here. ETA this whole thread is very very different. 
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This is a matter of definitions
speed reload - ejecting a partially loaded magazine without retaining it and immediately reloading with a full magazine ( also called an IPSC reload) emergency reload - empty mag ejected without retention, new mag inserted. Tactical reload - fresh mag brought up to loaded firearm, partial swapped for full, partial stowed. Reload with retention - partial mag ejected, but retained. Partial stowed then full mag is accessed and loaded At DCNC; we teach the emergency reload, tac reload, and reload with retention. |
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When I started this post I did not expect everyone to agree with me. I wanted to initiate discussion and get people thinking.
The retention reload during the 'lull' is so widely taught and accepted it is hard to get people to consider not doing it. To some the act of letting a few rounds hit the ground is inexcuseable. To me creating an unessecary scar during all reloads isn't worth it. I could stick an extra mag in my pocket before I leave the house . The experiences I shared from an actual shooting, and alot of training scenarios shows me that the 'muscle memory' of the retention reload can come out at the wrong time, when cognitive choices are not made. That is my big issue with it, period. It's good that we all don't teach the same thing. I tell my students to question what they learn, and evaluate for themselves if it fits their needs. They should decide what works for them in their situation. I also encourage my students to learn from different instructors to get diverse views. Thanks to everyone who weighed in on this, wether you agree with me or not. |
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I just read this thread and it made me wonder about something
does any one see a need or teach a situation where you may have to fire the round left in the chamber but no mag, in the middle of a tactical reload? it seems to me it could happen. especially for the guys that OP says do it in the middle of a fight, ( no lull ) SO I guess I am asking what would the rest of the drill after the no magazine shot, look like? assuming the weapon was capable of firing with no mag. like a 1911? |
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I just read this thread and it made me wonder about something does any one see a need or teach a situation where you may have to fire the round left in the chamber but no mag, in the middle of a tactical reload? it seems to me it could happen. especially for the guys that OP says do it in the middle of a fight, ( no lull ) SO I guess I am asking what would the rest of the drill after the no magazine shot, look like? assuming the weapon was capable of firing with no mag. like a 1911? that would be exceedingly rare. and more than likely you would just follow through with the reload. if you were performing a correct tactical reload it would be faster to insert the fresh magazine if the new one was in your hand OR continue to hold the fresh mag and engage with the rest of the partial that is still in the gun. after the threat is down you would continue to reload should you try the "nonretention tactical reload" you would eject the magazine THEN try to index a fresh one and a threat appears, youll get one round off (provided your weapon fires without a mag), your slide wont lock back and your halfass reload will become an emergency reload with no slide lock. youll probably get shot so hopefully youre moving around. itll all boil down to judgement and when you go for that fresh magazine. |
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If you need more bullets in your gun, it will be in one of two scenarios IMO: 1. RIGHT FUCKING NOW!!! Hence the slide lock reload. 2. Because there is a lull in the fighting, and you are behind cover and reasonably sure there is no immediate threat. Hence the tac reload/ reload w/ retention. I see no reason in complicating it any further. Just my 2 cents. Jay I like you....good answer |
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Though I'm in on this waaay late...
The one place where tactical reloads make sense to me is during barricade shooting. Thats the only place I've done it and taught it - and it makes sense. You fire four rounds standing from behind cover, then you hide behind cover, refresh your mag, and reappear from cover in the kneeling, firing four more rounds. It makes sense to be topped off, and retention of a partial magazine makes sense as well. Otherwise, almost everything I've been taught and trained in pistol shooting has involved shooting X number of rounds for speed/neutralization of threat and after Y number of facings, reloading from slide lock (emergency reload). |
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If you need more bullets in your gun, it will be in one of two scenarios IMO: 1. RIGHT FUCKING NOW!!! Hence the slide lock reload. 2. Because there is a lull in the fighting, and you are behind cover and reasonably sure there is no immediate threat. Hence the tac reload/ reload w/ retention. I see no reason in complicating it any further. Just my 2 cents. Jay I like you....good answer I agree as well. ...although I think the mythical "lull in the gunfight" is just that, a myth... at least the way I've always heard it explained. The "lull" occurs when it's over IMO. |
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...although I think the mythical "lull in the gunfight" is just that, a myth... at least the way I've always heard it explained. The "lull" occurs when it's over IMO. Define "lull". I think a better way to frame the appropriateness of the tactical reload or reload w/retention is that their use should be based on whether or not an "opportunity" presents itself. This is a point that is almost always ill-defined (or under-defined) in the training environment. And, specifically, as square range training doesn't provide adequate realism, we teach these techniques so that they can be practiced correctly during sustainment training. We teach them in basic level classes but their utilization doesn't is not really fully understood. Even advanced training (re: indoor and outdoor simulators) does not really provide good context. In fact, neither does FoF given that most scenarios are by design, not "running gunfights" so the only "lull" that occurs in most of these instances is "when it's over". They may indeed be rare but that's not to say an "opportunity" won't present itself as a gunfight unfolds. |
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...although I think the mythical "lull in the gunfight" is just that, a myth... at least the way I've always heard it explained. The "lull" occurs when it's over IMO. Define "lull". I think a better way to frame the appropriateness of the tactical reload or reload w/retention is that their use should be based on whether or not an "opportunity" presents itself. This is a point that is almost always ill-defined (or under-defined) in the training environment. And, specifically, as square range training doesn't provide adequate realism, we teach these techniques so that they can be practiced correctly during sustainment training. We teach them in basic level classes but their utilization doesn't is not really fully understood. Even advanced training (re: indoor and outdoor simulators) does not really provide good context. In fact, neither does FoF given that most scenarios are by design, not "running gunfights" so the only "lull" that occurs in most of these instances is "when it's over". They may indeed be rare but that's not to say an "opportunity" won't present itself as a gunfight unfolds. I like Tony's description....A fully loaded gun is always better then a partially loaded one.... anytime you have a "Opportunity" to go from partial, to full without compromising your current situation is a good thing...That's why you train.... to help you achieve that situational awareness so you know when that opportunity arrives so you can act on it and not just blindly shoot two, drop a mag and reload at the sound of a whistle ... 
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Like Tony said, the "lull" always seems to be ill-defined... Hearing some people talk about it, it's like a bell rings and the bad guys stop shooting and moving. Then you top off your gun and wait for the "lull" to end so everyone can get back to shooting at each other. To me, a lull would be when every bad guy that I'm aware of is down and I'm absolutely positive that no one is going to pop out and start shooting if I start swapping mags. I'm not saying that there's never a reason to do a mag retention reload in a fight, but there would have to be a pretty convincing situation to make me do that before I thought the fight was over. Obviously, it's a whole different story in a LE/mil context. |
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Define "lull". I think a better way to frame the appropriateness of the tactical reload or reload w/retention is that their use should be based on whether or not an "opportunity" presents itself. This is a point that is almost always ill-defined (or under-defined) in the training environment. And, specifically, as square range training doesn't provide adequate realism, we teach these techniques so that they can be practiced correctly during sustainment training. We teach them in basic level classes but their utilization doesn't is not really fully understood. Even advanced training (re: indoor and outdoor simulators) does not really provide good context. In fact, neither does FoF given that most scenarios are by design, not "running gunfights" so the only "lull" that occurs in most of these instances is "when it's over". They may indeed be rare but that's not to say an "opportunity" won't present itself as a gunfight unfolds. Easy answer concerning appropriateness: when/if you have cover. If you fire several rounds moving to cover and have solid cover behind which to reload, do so. Then when you move again, you have a full magazine. I suppose it completely depends on the scenario. For a SD or HD scenario, you fire a couple rounds, fall back to a new room/location where you have at least concealment, and if you have at least deterred the threat at least temporarily, and reload. For an advancing scenario/room clearing, you reload when your partner (or team) is covering you, and your partner (or team) loads as you cover them before your next movement. A scenario where a non-wounded threat retreats provides a "lull" as well. I agree that tac reloads may not be utilized to the fullest, but again, that depends on a scenario. |
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That likely CCW or SD situation is assuming the conventional thinking of a single attacker and a single victim, and no availability of cover, and no movement.
A multiple home intruder scenario, wherein the defender is barricaded in a single room, may result in firing at one attacker, which deters the others, and then necessitating a reload while maintaining cover in that room and waiting for authorities, for example. Sitting watching a door or window with an almost empty mag after a few hits or misses and not topping off with a fresh mag could be a rather significant disadvantage. Now I know anything can be "what if"ed to death, but I think lack of the tactical reload may be more of an underutilization; though I also agree it's not as likely to be used in the traditional, conventional scenario that is "expected". ... ETA: Post .45 
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