U.S. Rifle, Caliber .30, M1 Proud Deplorable
Joined:
May 2001
Posts:
47107
EE: 100% (488)
IN, USA
Posted: 1/15/2017 10:25:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Dog1][Edited]
Got this from a buddy today-
Happened at the Norco Run and Gun match. Looks like a very poor range design. |
Hansan: "This is a .30 caliber, gas operated, clip fed, semi-automatic rifle....."
Soldier: "Look, you ain't sellin it to me, you're only showing me how it works."
Soldier: "Look, you ain't sellin it to me, you're only showing me how it works."
I used to make 4140 & 4150, now I make Cu alloys.
Joined:
Sep 2004
Posts:
6456
EE: 100% (8)
OH, USA
|
http://www.pe.com/articles/shooting-823246-jan-corona.html
https://www.facebook.com/NorcoRunningGun/ |
Never follow anyone shorter than you; they can walk under things that you can't.
|
I get the set up if the berms were capable of stopping the rounds but they used plywood to make the berms taller and that reflected a round back down into a shooter in the forward bay?
WTF I need to see some detailed photos of this set up. |
Originally Posted By GreenBastard:
Every pussy liberal educated elitist would gladly pick up a Tokarev and put a bullet into your skull if it meant realizing his ideal society.
Every pussy liberal educated elitist would gladly pick up a Tokarev and put a bullet into your skull if it meant realizing his ideal society.
| I have shot at Raahagues dozens of times, both at the front and rear ranges, there is no way a round went over the berm and hit someone on the rear range. The rear range is lower than the front range and the top of the earthen front range berms are 10+ feet over the rear range. Watch them recover a 130gr .38 super from the victims back. |
#IN FOR GRIN
|
Holy crap. I saw the overhead photo and initially assumed the firing points were back to back shooting outward, They shoot in the same direction? Holy carp that's a dumb setup. Short of the berms being 200 feet tall.
Me thinks they're going to need another insurer. |
| In for the discovery that it was an accidental discharge from someone off the firing line dorking around with their gun behind the victim. |
Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out.
General education should not be mere job training, but training of the mind to reason. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/classical-education/
General education should not be mere job training, but training of the mind to reason. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/classical-education/
U.S. Rifle, Caliber .30, M1 Proud Deplorable
Joined:
May 2001
Posts:
47108
EE: 100% (488)
IN, USA
|
Originally Posted By para_frame:
I have shot at Raahagues dozens of times, both at the front and rear ranges, there is no way a round went over the berm and hit someone on the rear range. The rear range is lower than the front range and the top of the earthen front range berms are 10+ feet over the rear range. Watch them recover a 130gr .38 super from the victims back. That was a thought I had as well. |
Hansan: "This is a .30 caliber, gas operated, clip fed, semi-automatic rifle....."
Soldier: "Look, you ain't sellin it to me, you're only showing me how it works."
Soldier: "Look, you ain't sellin it to me, you're only showing me how it works."
|
Originally Posted By Dog1:
Got this from a buddy today- https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/9749/received--126785.jpg Happened at the Norco Run and Gun match. Looks like a very poor range design. I sure don't remember two rows of bays. When was that added? |
We President now!
U.S. Rifle, Caliber .30, M1 Proud Deplorable
Joined:
May 2001
Posts:
47109
EE: 100% (488)
IN, USA
|
Originally Posted By M4-AR:
No way I'd step foot in the range. Layout looks very unsafe from the pics I've seen. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/38811/IMG-3381-126997.jpg Now that I have seen that pic, they wanted to increase their shooting bays, but turning them the other way would have them shooting toward the houses to the right. I don't know what is to the left, where the trees are, but it must not be populated. I agree, I don't think I would shoot there. |
Hansan: "This is a .30 caliber, gas operated, clip fed, semi-automatic rifle....."
Soldier: "Look, you ain't sellin it to me, you're only showing me how it works."
Soldier: "Look, you ain't sellin it to me, you're only showing me how it works."
|
Originally Posted By MRW:
In for the discovery that it was an accidental discharge from someone off the firing line dorking around with their gun behind the victim. That's my guess too. We'll see. |
A man reveals himself in the way he treats those under his authority.
All behavior offends someone.
Knowledge is more confusing than ignorance.
Science falters when faced with explaining bullshit.
All behavior offends someone.
Knowledge is more confusing than ignorance.
Science falters when faced with explaining bullshit.
|
Originally Posted By Teamer:
Wow, I feel bad for all involved. May range is a little "overboard" on some of the safety stuff at times, but I'd WAY rather deal with "helmets and knee pads" safety levels than seeing someone bleed out at a match or just a day of shooting. Regardless I carry my own blowout kit in my range gear. And have zero problems calling someone out if they're being unsafe. I'd rather be a dick and save a life. |
PSN: Dikler
Callsign: Boom.
Callsign: Boom.
|
Originally Posted By Strudle54:
That is a really odd set up - what direction are people shooting - I assume into the long berms. That means, if you are shooting at the left side (per the picture) there are people on the right side shooting directly at your back? Is that correct? That's what it looked like to me. Slight higher elevation on the back row. |
PSN: Dikler
Callsign: Boom.
Callsign: Boom.
|
Either the berms are high enough or they're not.
Based on this photo... Attached File The current story is a round was fired with enough elevation to hit the plywood dirt splatter catcher on top of the 10-12 foot tall berm (using the porta-pottie for scale) which re-directed the round downward at an equal angle into a shooter in the forward bay. I've seen tracers do some crazy shit but I'm gonna wait for the official word before I blame the range. Have to agree with other shooters that a round fired from someone dicking with their gun behind the victim is more likely as horrific of a violation of USPSA safety practices as that is. |
Originally Posted By GreenBastard:
Every pussy liberal educated elitist would gladly pick up a Tokarev and put a bullet into your skull if it meant realizing his ideal society.
Every pussy liberal educated elitist would gladly pick up a Tokarev and put a bullet into your skull if it meant realizing his ideal society.
|
Originally Posted By Lomshek:
Either the berms are high enough or they're not. Based on this photo... http://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/38811/IMG-3381-126997.jpg The current story is a round was fired with enough elevation to hit the plywood dirt splatter catcher on top of the 10-12 foot tall berm (using the porta-pottie for scale) which re-directed the round downward at an equal angle into a shooter in the forward bay. I've seen tracers do some crazy shit but I'm gonna wait for the official word before I blame the range. Have to agree with other shooters that a round fired from someone dicking with their gun behind the victim is more likely as horrific of a violation of USPSA safety practices as that is. I agree that it's more likely someone finger fucked their gun, had a ND and he got hit. But that range layout is reckless. |
PSN: Dikler
Callsign: Boom.
Callsign: Boom.
|
Originally Posted By Lomshek:
Either the berms are high enough or they're not. Based on this photo... http://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/38811/IMG-3381-126997.jpg The current story is a round was fired with enough elevation to hit the plywood dirt splatter catcher on top of the 10-12 foot tall berm (using the porta-pottie for scale) which re-directed the round downward at an equal angle into a shooter in the forward bay. I've seen tracers do some crazy shit but I'm gonna wait for the official word before I blame the range. Have to agree with other shooters that a round fired from someone dicking with their gun behind the victim is more likely as horrific of a violation of USPSA safety practices as that is. This really sums up my thoughts. I'm not sure I quite understand why they have plywood on top at all. If the berm isn't high enough, it's not high enough. And yes, bullets deflect like crazy by almost anything solid, regardless of how seamingly flimsy - way more than you think. Bottom line, very iffy range design, combined with someone who fucked up. A hot round should never have hit that board. He either lost it and sent a high one into it. Or maybe a ricochet off the ground. |
Trout Bum with a case of Black Rifle Disease
Joined:
Jul 2003
Posts:
2511
EE: 0% (0)
UT, USA
|
I'm not comfortable with how the range is laid out. Space is limited but I understand their thinking. As regulated as the ranges are in Calif. I'm sure someone from the state/county thought the plan was safe enough to grant an operating permit. To paraphrase a well known line .... " |
War is when the government tells you who the enemy is......Revolution is when you finally figure it out for yourself. MOLON LABE !!!
"Behind the donuts! I know what Im doing"
Joined:
Oct 2012
Posts:
6947
EE: 100% (2)
NV, USA
|
Originally Posted By lazyengineer:
This really sums up my thoughts. I'm not sure I quite understand why they have plywood on top at all. If the berm isn't high enough, it's not high enough. <snip> One of the ranges I shoot at have lanes like that but facing each other (people on both sides shooting into the same berm). The plywood is there to catch splatter, dirt and rocks from being kicked over the berm into the lane behind it. No mater how tall the berm is, splatter is still going to make it over the berm. |
|
Originally Posted By ScooterInVegas:
One of the ranges I shoot at have lanes like that but facing each other (people on both sides shooting into the same berm). The plywood is there to catch splatter, dirt and rocks from being kicked over the berm into the lane behind it. No mater how tall the berm is, splatter is still going to make it over the berm. Originally Posted By ScooterInVegas:
Originally Posted By lazyengineer:
This really sums up my thoughts. I'm not sure I quite understand why they have plywood on top at all. If the berm isn't high enough, it's not high enough. <snip> One of the ranges I shoot at have lanes like that but facing each other (people on both sides shooting into the same berm). The plywood is there to catch splatter, dirt and rocks from being kicked over the berm into the lane behind it. No mater how tall the berm is, splatter is still going to make it over the berm. Bullets run up the berm on dirt ranges. Its strange...but it happens. I was on one that used a metal canopy over the berm and rounds would "ding" the canopy over the dirt birm, some even made holes in it. Plus, dirt isn't dirt...it is rocks, wood, and so on. If they just pushed up some dirt, it could be anything. Ideally, a berm would be 2-3X as high as a standing shooter for a pistol range and about 5-6X for a rifle range, plus have some sort of lip or overhang to prevent rounds from exiting the top of the berm. |
|
Originally Posted By FedDC:Bullets run up the berm on dirt ranges. Its strange...but it happens. I was on one that used a metal canopy over the berm and rounds would "ding" the canopy over the dirt birm, some even made holes in it.
Plus, dirt isn't dirt...it is rocks, wood, and so on. If they just pushed up some dirt, it could be anything. Ideally, a berm would be 2-3X as high as a standing shooter for a pistol range and about 5-6X for a rifle range, plus have some sort of lip or overhang to prevent rounds from exiting the top of the berm. |
www.Green-Ops.com
https://www.facebook.com/GreenOpsInc
https://www.facebook.com/GreenOpsInc
|
Holy shit.
That range is fucking retarded, and that plywood makes it even worse. There's no telling what the rounds will do when it hits that plywood, let alone the rounds that hit the berm. |
The strength of the pack is in the wolf, the strength of the wolf is in the pack
<font face='Book Antiqua'>WE OWN .GOV NOW, REMAIN ACTIVE IN COMMUNITY</font id='Book Antiqua'>
<font face='Book Antiqua'>WE OWN .GOV NOW, REMAIN ACTIVE IN COMMUNITY</font id='Book Antiqua'>
U.S. Rifle, Caliber .30, M1 Proud Deplorable
Joined:
May 2001
Posts:
47549
EE: 100% (488)
IN, USA
|
Originally Posted By SuperSet72:
calguns thread for Raahagues incident Originally Posted By SuperSet72:
calguns thread for Raahagues incident The family of Lionel Tan has filed a wrongful death lawsuit against Raahauges and Does 1 through 50, in the Riverside Superior Court. Doe 1 is most certainly the unknown shooter and Does 2-50 are just placeholders for future defendants, identities currently unknown. The plaintiffs' firm is Panish, Shea, and Boyle, and the defendant's attorney has not yet entered an appearance. The case number is RIC1702204 (Sai, et al vs. Mike Raahauges Shooting, et al). This case will undoubtedly focus on whether Raahauges exercised due care towards the decedent in the construction, design, layout, and operation of its range. |
Hansan: "This is a .30 caliber, gas operated, clip fed, semi-automatic rifle....."
Soldier: "Look, you ain't sellin it to me, you're only showing me how it works."
Soldier: "Look, you ain't sellin it to me, you're only showing me how it works."
| Do I have this right, the shooter was using an AR and shot so high it went over the berm, but under the wooden backstop, then deflected downwards striking the man? |
Back the Blue
1,000,000 view!
Certified LaRue Armorer
NRA Benefactor, Team Ranstad, Tennessee Squire
1,000,000 view!
Certified LaRue Armorer
NRA Benefactor, Team Ranstad, Tennessee Squire
|
Originally Posted By Defender3:
Do I have this right, the shooter was using an AR and shot so high it went over the berm, but under the wooden backstop, then deflected downwards striking the man? |
|
Looking at some of the photos on calguns forum, im going with partially shooter, partially range(mostly shitty range design). The berms appear to be 8-9 feet tall increasingly thinner as they get taller, at the top they dont appear to be much more than 1-2 inches of loose dirt then plywood. hitting the dirt, then plywood(which already has a BUNCH of bullet holes in it), then the other side of the plywood could certainly deflect a bullet 20 degrees downward into someone who from the Ariel photos would have been down range.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=1291864&page=7 about halfway down teh page there is a photo of a guy shooting a glock and his target is at 6 feet, about 2-3 feet of berm above him and you can see the remains of a clay pigeon on the top left of the photo, as well as multiple prior strikes to the plywood(indicating that the range didnt PROPMTLY stop shooting at it). Im glad my range is a single line of bays. |
|
Originally Posted By fsjdw2:
Looking at some of the photos on calguns forum, im going with partially shooter, partially range(mostly shitty range design). The berms appear to be 8-9 feet tall increasingly thinner as they get taller, at the top they dont appear to be much more than 1-2 inches of loose dirt then plywood. hitting the dirt, then plywood(which already has a BUNCH of bullet holes in it), then the other side of the plywood could certainly deflect a bullet 20 degrees downward into someone who from the Ariel photos would have been down range. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=1291864&page=7 about halfway down teh page there is a photo of a guy shooting a glock and his target is at 6 feet, about 2-3 feet of berm above him and you can see the remains of a clay pigeon on the top left of the photo, as well as multiple prior strikes to the plywood(indicating that the range didnt PROPMTLY stop shooting at it). Im glad my range is a single line of bays. |
Back the Blue
1,000,000 view!
Certified LaRue Armorer
NRA Benefactor, Team Ranstad, Tennessee Squire
1,000,000 view!
Certified LaRue Armorer
NRA Benefactor, Team Ranstad, Tennessee Squire
| Our range was super lackadaisical about hitting the berm until somebody was shooting tracers and lit the land fill behind it on fire... The landfill has a couple guys that drive bulldozers running around constantly, and well that could have really sucked. So banned all tracers(except for one shoot in January at night when the dump is closed) and patrols regularly and they can (and have) booted shooters for violations. |
|
Originally Posted By fsjdw2:
Our range was super lackadaisical about hitting the berm until somebody was shooting tracers and lit the land fill behind it on fire... The landfill has a couple guys that drive bulldozers running around constantly, and well that could have really sucked. So banned all tracers(except for one shoot in January at night when the dump is closed) and patrols regularly and they can (and have) booted shooters for violations. 
|
"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant: It's just that they know so much that isn't so." - Ronald Reagan
NRA Life Member
Second Amendment Foundation member
NRA Life Member
Second Amendment Foundation member