I haven't been in a "bar fight" since I was a much younger man --- i'm 45 now and a travelling insurance adjuster.

I have a very limited background in judo, aikido, high school wrestling, -- and served in the US Army years ago -- basically I'm used to the idea of physical confrontation, but at 45 and with a solid career and a family back home,  its not something that's ever at the forefront of my mind

Last night , after concluding my work for the day, - went to a neighborhood bar and grille --- the place closed at 10,  it  had more in common with a Chili's than it did the bar from Roadhouse.    I saw a large younger guy, quite inebriated, generally pestering people, and I just assumed he was a drunk townie.    I had gone there to watch whatever football game might have been on on a Sunday night , -- so when the loud guy announced he was tabbing out and  s tanding up to leave, I made a move to the bar area as I was going to take the seat to watch the game.

   The guy saw what I was doing, and sat down again - just stating  - "I don't like you"  (yes, literally) - so I sat back down in my prior location and was laughing to myself-- at this, the guy said "What the hell is so funny?"   -- so I just replied,  "Hey man, if you don't like me, its a free country - you can like who ever you want"

Fast forward 30 minutes, the guy is long gone and I am now sitting in the seat he was formerly occupying, -- when he comes back in blathering to the bartender about how he forgot to tip him, -- so seeing me, he stands uncomfortably close to me while is jawing back and forth with the guy , -- then he leans down and kisses me on top of the head-(yes- really)  - at which point I jump off my stool  and say  
 "Man? What the hell are you doing?"  and I back up so I am out of arms reach of a first punch   I took this as the equivalent of a dog trying to express dominance over another dog

I saw the look in the guys eye and in half a second I had at least 10 different thoughts rush through me ------   Do  I

1) try to conk the guy with a beer bottle
2) rush him center of mass like a football guard and try to get him on the ground
3) wait for him to throw the first punch and react accordingly -- but going blow for blow with a much taller and younger guy didn't sound appealing to me
4) also crossed my mind that the dude might be carrying something - knife , gun or otherwise (and I wasn't)

I genuinely thought that I should try to put the dude down before he got a chance to punch me as the guy was at least 5" taller than me and a bit heavier

-----   This is 5 seconds of activity, max until the lout's bar friends get a hold of him and try to escort him from the premises  --



It was surreal   ---  the rest of the patrons in the place were older, late 50's and up , with the exception of a skinny younger guy who re-assured me that he had my back if things went sideways -- -- thanks bro - LOL
     I genuinely think the guy just looked around and picked me out as the only one in there who would actually put up a fight if provoked-- I'm a large framed guy , but I'm also 45 and out of shape


This morning when the sheer rage finally wore off,    I got to thinking about the very real need to "tune myself up" again ----  whether its strength training, legitimate self defense training or a combination of both  ----  I'm an insurance adjuster for chrissakes- I do anything possible to avoid situations where I might have an encounter,  but you just never ever know when something weird or unexpected is going to happen ---- even in the bar section of a family friendly restaurant

       I was so unprepared, I almost felt naked ----  I don't like that feeling ---      I feel like I learned a lesson from this.    I'm not going to rat-hole myself up in the hotel when a ball game is on, but sheesh-- as I said, the place had a Chilis/Applebees type of ambiance - the type of place that closes down at 10  (and I think this tomfoolery occurred about 830 )  


----   I am still on the road, ----   first order of business is to hit the weights and firm up a little, -- I can do this at any number of gyms around the country, --- but I'm at a loss for formal training unless I just resume my old Aikido studies , - but I enjoyed  that far more for the process than any aspirations of actually having to defend myself,  judo seemed far easier to master to the point of actually implementing it in the field


Oh well rant over -----     just a non descript middle age, middle class guy getting called out at the local watering hole -   weird

Meh it happens so dont feel too bad about it. The bad thing is you kind of are going over it in your mind and thinking " was I a bitch for not knocking that dudes teeth in" but things are different when you get older. Being younger you might have pushed harder to get him to swing , but who really wants to go to jail in your 40's

Thanks

yes -- over-analyzing a "close call" is probably pretty common

I just don't want to feel soft and weak like that ever again --------    I've often told others, regarding fighting, - even if you came out ahead in an altercation, your still going to wake up the next day with something hurting or bruised or blackened

If you liked Aikido but prefer Judo for practicality, I'd look at Hapkido or old-school JiuJitsu.  Aikido has good techniques, but as you've noticed, it relies heavily on precision and practice.  I prefer the 'soft' arts for most self-defense scenarios, looks better to deflect an attack and lock the assailant up than to slug it out with them, if your actions have to be reviewed by someone afterwards.

Yup, unless friends or loved ones are in danger, just get away.  You win just by avoiding physical contact.

Let someone else be the one that gives him his tune-up.



 

I got what you guys are sayin -- avoidance is always the best option --  I made a tactical error in that regard by somewhat standing my ground ----  In hindsight I now know this --- I did resist the invitation the gemtleman extended me to "go outside" though - that's for sure


But the thing that really made me think ,  --- was how lax I had become in personal preparation over the years --  a bit like the hardcore CCW crowd preaches - basically without training, the mere act of just carrying a gun around is just a start, but training is what fills in the pieces of the puzzle

      Just like gun violence, you never know when its coming and I just thought this was so weird, given the venue ------      I'm getting older, sure, but i'm not ready for the rocking chair ------    I hope this never happens again, but I just want to be more prepared if it does for sure ---  at 45 years of age, I felt unprepared, --- whereas I know there are guys and gals in their 60's who actively maintain their training and are still ready to rock at the drop of a hat if the situation dictates that

Personal fitness and readiness is so important and I had lost sight of that , --- always thinking --- yeah, well, - my life is good, when I get a few weeks off I can concentrate on some things like that ---- truth is if I get a few weeks off, I just go mountain biking, - or do some recreational shooting --- real training and readiness has to be a daily pursuit

You nailed it hard here.

The fight can't always be avoided or predicted, and tools don't replace training.  We have to be ready to meet violence with our own; truly justified and more effective than those who wish to do us harm.  It doesn't have to be life-consuming, but it IS life-saving.

One thing to specifically reflect on and possibly seek training in is the management of pre-fight scenarios (managing unknown contacts, as some people brighter than me put it).  Deescalation can keep you out of court, or its attempt can help to justify your actions if you do have to use force.  Distance management is controlling the physical space between you and your attacker, putting yourself in a better physical posture to respond to the threat (safe background to shoot towards, space to maneuver away from edged weapons, closing distance with weaponed threats if you are unarmed, orienting yourself towards emergency exits, cover/concealment, etc.).  You had some good thoughts about Action vs. Reaction, and those ideas are complex and highly situational.  You did great by being prepared to strike first, but also were alert enough to allow the deescalation that followed without increasing the level of conflict yourself by physically engaging him.  Lastly, great job on situational awareness.  It doesn't have to be some super ninja, operator-esque thing:  be quiet and pay attention.  

You won the fight, no one died, and you identified some areas of training deficiency to remediate.  That's as much as we can hope for.  My opinion is worth what you paid for it.

Here is the irony, you should get in better shape and up your H2H game.  But...when you do, it will just make you more confident, less given to anger (since you know you could destroy him and it isn't worth the aftermath) and the combo of that....will result in you being even less likely than you are now to get into a confrontation.

I'm a fellow insurance adjuster (large property homeowner claims, when I'm not playing Army or teaching a firearms course) so I can relate to your story, only I just eat and leave and do my hanging out at the hotel.  Introvert... I naturally avoid people who aren't jerks, nevermind the ones who are!

Stay safe

Don't let anyone with hostile or unknown intent get "uncomfortably close" to you.  As in, close enough to kiss you.  Mentally rehearse some situations and how you will react.  Never let someone get in your face.  Avoid, deescalate, disengage, but bottom line: never let anyone get in striking position with hostile intent.  Unless you are a skilled fighter, there is no way you will react in time to the stimulus.

Even skilled fighters suffer from a reactionary gap.  It's why you keep your hands up to protect your head.

Of course it's best to be prepared, but avoiding a conflict is almost always preferable to even winning one. It always sucks to lose. Sometimes it sucks to win, too. And you just don't know who you are dealing with.

Lol @ Hapkido. Jesus, you are really recomending that? Just no. If OP wants to hone skils just find an MMA school that does kickboxing and jujitsu. Learn to fight on ground, get cardio, learn to properly punch and kick. Thats it. Above all, avoid. Above all that, don't spend your money on some goofball shit like Hapkido just so you look even stupider as you get your ass beat.

By all means, use this as motivation to get tuned up.

But let it also firm your resolve that you have no need to man up to a drunkard.  You have nothing to gain and everything to lose.

I have plenty of experience that I need not hash out with you, thanks. I'm not arguing with anyone who is wrong enough to have taken your stance to begin with. Go do your Hapkido. Go do you, in your wolf moon dreamcatcher shirt or whatever you do at the dojo there sensei.

You say 45 like it's some sort of excuse for being out of shape. You should reconsider that.

From now on, wherever you go, park around the block. Never introduced yourself as anything other than Boo. Always pay with cash and develop a habit of reflexively throat punching anyone who gets in your space.  

By the way, which of the martial arts disciplines you mentioned, did you learn your "conk him in the head with a bottle" move from?

Three year old thread resurrection with a purse fight, neat.

On the 1st anniversary after I defended myself with my ZT350 knife ( thread somewhere in the archives from March 2015) I bought myself a DeSantis City Slicker, https://www.amazon.com/DeSantis-City-Slicer-Purse-Black/dp/B00JJYPHXI . Right side, back pocket carry with about 10 Oz. of coins - enough to take a bus somewhere in Seattle.

It hits like a hammer , it'd be a fight stopper applied to the  other guy's clavicles, head, face or hands.

I think on the 2nd Anniversary I bought another pistol

Shit happens, and you'll play it in your head a million times and hopefully come up with a better plan for the next random occurance.

Sounds like a situation I was in a.while back. Dude got close to me spouting off after I had made a side comment about his bathroom break taking too long alluding to a number 2. Like you, being older I dont tend to start anything.  Being 5'5" makes most bigger people feel more comfortable talking shit to me and this giy was going off.  I held my ground letting him spout. As he was going off he leaned my way a bit. That's when he noticed me starting to square up and my eyes go into peripheral mode. His demeanor immidiately changed as he could tell he would cross a line soon. He backed up, quieted down and walked off in a huff. A lot of guys are just big talk and it sounds like you found out the same.

You acted responsibly.
I'll be 60 this year. I have a solid background in self defense. Always trained but hardly ever used it.
I secretly wish someone would try me so I can see if I still got it.
I may or I may not.

You really got pissed off and considered smashing a bottle over the guy's head because he literally kissed the top of your head?

OP, look: what he did was weird, but that was a really stupid thought for you to consider. That's a great way to catch a felony charge. Don't be stupid, OP: stay smart and try to avoid fights if you can.

I get into those kind of situations on a daily being a cop, we are near the same age. Its not fun having to fight a a guy more ripped and pissed off than you, especially by yourself.. Truth be told I would deescalate or walk away if I was off duty.

Most martial arts have become tournament sports with not a lot of practical value. And a lot of formerly good martial arts have incorporated "Hollywood" stuff, because that's what paying students want.

Been studying Systema now for three years, and like it much better than karate or jujutsu. There's a lot of emphasis on recognizing and avoiding impending conflicts, too.

I was confused about that too...lol

What's the time limit for sharing good information?

Answered

If the establishment didn't tell him to not come back, you should never return.

Their handling of situations and people like that speaks volumes about the character of the managers and owners.

It's still worth answering.

The last thing I wanted was to get in a fight
In Jackson Mississippi on a Saturday night

Especially since there was 3 of them and only 1 of me.

Charlie Daniels - Uneasy Rider

it rattled you because you didn’t rise tot he challenge

Wow. This is an old thread

Zombie thread!
Or is it Easter thread?

Conflict and violence suck.
OP won by not ending up as a patient or defendant.

Dude did dominate you. A man kissed you against your will/without permission and your only action was saying “what the hell”. Old thread but worth posting.

LOL -- now the thread is 8 years old - just stumbled onto it -  and the last respondent was almost a year ago and basically called me a pussy -- thats fair enough because i recall i sure felt like one that night

epilogue

Since this incident, i have lost 85 pounds (220 lbs if you count my divorce), earned rank of Shodan in Aikido and have done a fair amount of krav maga training.    Havent had a similar experience (or even close) since.  Now at 53, im an even more boring guy than i was back then -- i dont travel for work anymore, rarely go more than a 15 mile radius from my house and mostly keep to myself except when i am chasing tail  (man's need for companionship and procreation never ceases)  

I avoid drinking establishments on "special nights" - big ball games, holidays, etc. and if i walk in and theres some kind of party or get together going on and people are getting tipsy and loud, i go somewhere else.

One would almost think it the inverse, but the better physical shape i got in, the more rest i need and staying out past 10 is very rarely in the cards anymore , but the right woman could convince me otherwise on occasion (and has) - but i am much more militant about avoiding confrontation now and much quicker to just leave a few bucks on the counter for the server and leave if i sense a possible situation i dont like

Geoff Thompson worked as a "Door Man" in the UK, was in hundreds of fights, and wrote a ton of classic books on the bar fight: Three Second Fighter

There are a lot of pathetic low life's that go to bars looking for a fight and trying everything they can think of to start one.  Geoff says the best policy is to be somewhere else.  Failing that, don't react to their provocation, just say I'm sorry and GTFO.  Failing that, you need to know "the fence" and have the skills to preemptively put their ass on the ground.  

Last week I witnessed a fight. I called the police and it took them 15 minutes to show up.  Drunk dumb-asses were still around after 15 minutes and one got a ride to the county lockup.  Before anyone tells me I should have left, I was inside my home watching the fight.  Police/Jail was kind compared to my other options which were more definitive.

I try to stay out of these discussions but here goes:

You're in your 40s...

Stay out of bars. It's where drunk dipshits congregate and dumb shit like this happens that escalates to fights.

If you go to a bar in your 40s it should be to pick up some food and go back to your hotel room.

If you go to a bar to hang out and watch a game while drinking be prepared for this bullshit because it comes with the territory so don't act all surprised when it happens.

Probably worth having a good criminal defense attorney on retainer for when you get arrested after the bar fight and good medical for when you get stabbed or smashed over the head with a beer bottle or something also. Certainly the cops will side with you when you've been drinking.

Don't act like dumb shit doesn't happen at the local Chilli's or Old Chicago later in the evening when people drink too much either. The memes are the proof.

Generally hanging around in bars or other places where there are drunks is a losing deal.

Avoid at all costs mixing it up with a drunk, By definition they are all stupid and do stupid stuff.

You can be more or less in the right , the drunk can be mostly in the wrong but if something goes sideways and someone takes a blow in the head and dies or becomes a vegetable it will easily end up makeing a mess of your life.

One of the funnier bar fight stories I ever heard, was from a guy who moved to our town, named Charlie McVey in his late twenties.

So he goes to a bar one night, and kind of like this story, some guy just decides he doesn't like Charlie and lets him know it.  Finally Charlie says, "Look, I don't want a fight.  I don't even know you.  Let me buy a beer and introduce myself.  My name is Charlie McVey."  

At this point, Charlie tells us, "The guy literally went white. And, started babbling, apologizing and backing up and almost ran out of the bar.  Does that sound weird to you guys?"

At that point we had to tell him about the Charlie McVey everyone in town had heard about.  The one who had gone to prison for a few years, for beating a man to death, and who was a member of the McVey family, who loved to fight and to carry a feud with anyone who crossed them forever.

At this point, our Charlie McVey went white.   We told him, "You're really lucky he didn't shoot you, just to be on the safe side."

This was in Pascagoula, Mississippi in the 80's for anyone else from that area who might have heard of the McVeys I am talking about.

My undoubtedly unpopular opinion follows.

You did the right thing. The guy was just being an ass. No reason to get  violent.

If you did have all of tai itoshi crap going on you might be cooling your heels in jail right now. Because you might not have done the right thing, like so many others who train for the wrong reasons.

Look, train if you want to, but don't do it because some brute kicked sand in your face and stole your girl.

This.

OP, at our age it's best to deescalate and walk.  We've got assets, presumably a good career; far too much to lose in a civil suit over a drunken idiot.  


I absolutely get where you're coming from.  


Oh, and FYI, losing weight and getting ripped will help some.  Most won't mess with you.  I have noticed that some will want to challenge you...you'll recognize the look.

Go to bars you have to deal with bar people. Don't think you can go and not deal with drunk idiots because that's where they go. That's why they go there.

There are no winners in a bar fight.

I beg to differ. I say this from vast experience in my younger days.

But the real win, is if you mange to avoid it completely.

I was big on learning Aikido as a youngster thanks to the Segal movies. Never trained in it, we didnt have any places near by to train.
I have to ask, and I don't mean any offense, but do you feel this art and the training you receive has real world applications against an aggressive opponent?