Just finished watching "Waco: The Rules Of Engagement..." OLUCKYMAN BUMP! TELL US MORE! - Page 2

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Just finished watching "Waco: The Rules Of Engagement..." OLUCKYMAN BUMP! TELL US MORE! (Page 2 of 15)

Posted: 12/19/2005 8:28:36 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
Quoted:
And no, I dont hang around wacko-psychotic religious freaks who have incestual relations and go against the laws.

Does the ATF have a new "Sex Crimes" unit we don't know about?
Dont try to turn this onto the Government as their fault those people died. They knew what was coming and what they could do to deflate the situation. They chose not too. *shrug*
If Koresh had surrendered to the "big, bad Gubmint", no one would have died. The government wasnt out to just go for a "rough & tough, shoot'em fun spree".

That's why 100 armed agents showed up with a battering ram and submachine guns, right?

Wow. Simply just wow.

You people are almost claiming to be Waco Experts and yet, you've never read/saw anything about their extremist views or what they did.

And you're trying to make fun of me. hahahahahahaha

Posted: 12/19/2005 8:32:41 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The Davidians were religious kooks, but if that's illegal then a lot of ARFCOMMERS are in trouble, too.

They didn't deserve to be burned to death.

The government behaved shamefully before, during and after.

True however, I think a GOOD MAJORITY if not everyone on here would consider incestual relations with little children as well as marrying them, a little fucking far out there Rodent.

Indeed! and the solution to the problem when you find such a situation is to shoot and burn the children to death.

Read post above talking about "not being able to read."

No one said anything about shooting the children, freak.

Posted: 12/19/2005 8:35:51 AM EDT

[#3]

When is the ATF going to change its name to NKVD, comrade?

Posted: 12/19/2005 8:36:40 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The Davidians were religious kooks, but if that's illegal then a lot of ARFCOMMERS are in trouble, too.

They didn't deserve to be burned to death.

The government behaved shamefully before, during and after.

True however, I think a GOOD MAJORITY if not everyone on here would consider incestual relations with little children as well as marrying them, a little fucking far out there Rodent.

Indeed! and the solution to the problem when you find such a situation is to ~~shoot and burn the children to death~~. generate a standoff with a mob of thier parents swept up in some cult nonsense make as big a show of it as you can before it turns to shit and THEN shoot and burn them to death.

Posted: 12/19/2005 8:37:16 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The Davidians were religious kooks, but if that's illegal then a lot of ARFCOMMERS are in trouble, too.

They didn't deserve to be burned to death.

The government behaved shamefully before, during and after.

True however, I think a GOOD MAJORITY if not everyone on here would consider incestual relations with little children as well as marrying them, a little fucking far out there Rodent.

Indeed! and the solution to the problem when you find such a situation is to shoot and burn the children to death.

Read post above talking about "not being able to read."

No one said anything about shooting the children, freak.

You're the one trying to justify the ATF's gestapo actions by saying "he was a pedphile".

Posted: 12/19/2005 8:38:02 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
The adult Wackos deserved what they got. And may the parents of the children burn in hell forever for involving their children in an armed standoff surrounded by gasoline and in the "care" of a man who was in love with the idea of a conflagiration ending to his people.

Life is tough when you're stupid. Life is dangerous when you're crazy. Those people were both. it was only a matter of time.

Couple questions, humor me.

Cite me ANY source that Koresh ever talked about burning his own followers.

Second, since when does the decision to practice "odd" religeon, and the holding of odd beliefs, carry the death penalty?

Wasn't freedom of religion kind of the whole point of the pilgroms' perilous adventure?

Posted: 12/19/2005 8:43:24 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The Davidians were religious kooks, but if that's illegal then a lot of ARFCOMMERS are in trouble, too.

They didn't deserve to be burned to death.

The government behaved shamefully before, during and after.

True however, I think a GOOD MAJORITY if not everyone on here would consider incestual relations with little children as well as marrying them, a little fucking far out there Rodent.

Indeed! and the solution to the problem when you find such a situation is to shoot and burn the children to death.

Read post above talking about "not being able to read."

No one said anything about shooting the children, freak.

You're the one trying to justify the ATF's gestapo actions by saying "he was a pedphile".

I did?

Please god tell me where I said it was justified because he was a pedophile?

Posted: 12/19/2005 8:44:42 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Basically, dont fuck with the goverment.

The government went in peacefully in the beginning so the bloodshed didnt have to happen. Koresh forced them to do what they did.

No sweat off my back. Go Federal Agents! Woot!

Federal agents - 1
Psycho-wacko religious fuckers who do illegal stuff - (-12)

guess you didn't see it, or know people from waco. they were murdered

I've seen multiple movies/videos on Waco. Thanks.

And no, I dont hang around wacko-psychotic religious freaks who have incestual relations and go against the laws.

Dont try to turn this onto the Government as their fault those people died. They knew what was coming and what they could do to deflate the situation. They chose not too. *shrug*
If Koresh had surrendered to the "big, bad Gubmint", no one would have died. The government wasnt out to just go for a "rough & tough, shoot'em fun spree".

Why are you on these boards again?

Why are you here?

Remember, it's a "free country"?

You are correct. It is a free country. And people are supposed to be able to worship whatever god, gods, ideas, or notions they see fit. People are also supposed to be secure in their homes and their belongings.

From your comments however, it sounds like you are the type that likes to pick and choose what freedoms others should be able to enjoy.

Posted: 12/19/2005 8:48:33 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
Quoted:
The adult Wackos deserved what they got. And may the parents of the children burn in hell forever for involving their children in an armed standoff surrounded by gasoline and in the "care" of a man who was in love with the idea of a conflagiration ending to his people.

Life is tough when you're stupid. Life is dangerous when you're crazy. Those people were both. it was only a matter of time.

Couple questions, humor me.

Cite me ANY source that Koresh ever talked about burning his own followers.

Second, since when does the decision to practice "odd" religeon, and the holding of odd beliefs, carry the death penalty?

Wasn't freedom of religion kind of the whole point of the pilgroms' perilous adventure?

Funny how in this country, if you dont believe in God, you're automatically "going to hell" and all that jazz.

But yet, its ok to practice your own religion where you have incest with your family/young children and a big orgy.

Then, once again, funny how if a person molests anothers child, he goes to prison and is automatically a "child molestor" and *immediately* looked down upon in society. But I guess since it's in the name of religion, it's ok to do?

Are you seriously fucking telling me you believe that? Because if you do, you should slap the ever motherfucking living shit out of yourself, right here and now. Then, post a goodbye note on AR15, saying that you're leaving because you're fucking retarded.

Posted: 12/19/2005 8:55:55 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Basically, dont fuck with the goverment.

The government went in peacefully in the beginning so the bloodshed didnt have to happen. Koresh forced them to do what they did.

No sweat off my back. Go Federal Agents! Woot!

Federal agents - 1
Psycho-wacko religious fuckers who do illegal stuff - (-12)

And the little kids trapped in there? They got what they deserved too?

Holy fuck.

It is fucking pathetic at how many of you people cannot read.
Did I say anything about anyone "deserving being killed"? Let alone kids? God-fucking-damn.

No one there deserved to die. But when you got fucking 200 federal agents knocking at your door, fully locked and loaded, with fucking APC's.....why do you resist? Only a fucking idiot or a person who's guilty is going to resist.
There is always posts on here talking about "what would you do if your door was knocked down at 3am with cops in there?" No one ever says "Well, I'd resist."
A *normal*, *reasonable*, *sane* person is not going to resist the goverment on charges that are serious like that, LET ALONE when 200 agents with fully auto weapons and CS/tear gas are at their door.

However, Koresh wasnt exactly *normal, reasonable nor sane*.....now was he.

You Sir have a lot to learn about the real world and how things really work. Some people lie, cheat, steal and murder. Just because some men have a badge does not mean they are above making poor or even illegal actions. 99% of Local, State and Fed Police are wonderful people. The 1% is what causes the problems in most cases. In both Waco and Ruby Ridge the 1% were in charge and you can see what happened. A lot of good people died for no reason what so ever.

Waco & Ruby Ridge was the end all to be all of Federal Law Enforcement screw ups and it will take a generation to live that down if ever. I will never again fully trust my Government after what I saw happen at Ruby Ridge and Waco. I love my County, but some times my Government scares the hell out of me.

I am glad we did not have more people like you"*normal*, *reasonable*, *sane*" in 1776 or I guess we all would be speaking with an English accent today.

Posted: 12/19/2005 9:05:57 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Basically, dont fuck with the goverment.

The government went in peacefully in the beginning so the bloodshed didnt have to happen. Koresh forced them to do what they did.

No sweat off my back. Go Federal Agents! Woot!

Federal agents - 1
Psycho-wacko religious fuckers who do illegal stuff - (-12)

And the little kids trapped in there? They got what they deserved too?

Holy fuck.

It is fucking pathetic at how many of you people cannot read.
Did I say anything about anyone "deserving being killed"? Let alone kids? God-fucking-damn.

No one there deserved to die. But when you got fucking 200 federal agents knocking at your door, fully locked and loaded, with fucking APC's.....why do you resist? Only a fucking idiot or a person who's guilty is going to resist.
There is always posts on here talking about "what would you do if your door was knocked down at 3am with cops in there?" No one ever says "Well, I'd resist."
A *normal*, *reasonable*, *sane* person is not going to resist the goverment on charges that are serious like that, LET ALONE when 200 agents with fully auto weapons and CS/tear gas are at their door.

However, Koresh wasnt exactly *normal, reasonable nor sane*.....now was he.

You Sir have a lot to learn about the real world and how things really work. Some people lie, cheat, steal and murder. Just because some men have a badge does not mean they are above making poor or even illegal actions. 99% of Local, State and Fed Police are wonderful people. The 1% is what causes the problems in most cases. In both Waco and Ruby Ridge the 1% were in charge and you can see what happened. A lot of good people died for no reason what so ever.

Waco & Ruby Ridge was the end all to be all of Federal Law Enforcement screw ups and it will take a generation to live that down if ever. I will never again fully trust my Government after what I saw happen at Ruby Ridge and Waco. I love my County, but some times my Government scares the hell out of me.

I am glad we did not have more people like you"*normal*, *reasonable*, *sane*" in 1776 or I guess we all would be speaking with an English accent today.

lmao

In my 21 years of "living in the real world", I've lived more than some 45 year olds I know and I'm sure a lot of 45year olds in general. But thanks.

No shit people lie, steal, cheat and murder.

There's quite a bit of difference between a King and our Federal Government. If you could never try to equate them to even being remotely the same, that'd be great.

And you're right, a lot of federal agents and little kids did die that day. For no reason whatsoever. If only David had cooperated with them, none of it would have happened.

Aside from this subject at all, answer me two questions.

Since when is incest ok?
and
Since when is molesting little children ok?

Posted: 12/19/2005 9:31:28 AM EDT

[#12]

They didn't resist during the initial ATF assault - and the ATF open fire

By the time the FBI assaulted using tanks, would YOU have trusted them enough to surrender?

FBI had already lied and captured the members that did surrender......

Posted: 12/19/2005 9:33:45 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
Is it "lets bitch about Waco" time again? Thought this crap was restricted to one thread only

Are they serving donuts in the cyber cafe now?

Posted: 12/19/2005 9:49:33 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

Aside from this subject at all, answer me two questions.

Since when is incest ok?
and
Since when is molesting little children ok?

HOLY FUCK!!!!

When has anyone said incest was ok!?! I pray to god.... tell us, when did anyone say molesting little children was ok?

[sound familiar?]

Posted: 12/19/2005 9:53:07 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Basically, dont fuck with the goverment.

The government went in peacefully in the beginning so the bloodshed didnt have to happen. Koresh forced them to do what they did.

No sweat off my back. Go Federal Agents! Woot!

Federal agents - 1
Psycho-wacko religious fuckers who do illegal stuff - (-12)

And the little kids trapped in there? They got what they deserved too?

Holy fuck.

It is fucking pathetic at how many of you people cannot read.
Did I say anything about anyone "deserving being killed"? Let alone kids? God-fucking-damn.

No one there deserved to die. But when you got fucking 200 federal agents knocking at your door, fully locked and loaded, with fucking APC's.....why do you resist? Only a fucking idiot or a person who's guilty is going to resist.
There is always posts on here talking about "what would you do if your door was knocked down at 3am with cops in there?" No one ever says "Well, I'd resist."
A *normal*, *reasonable*, *sane* person is not going to resist the goverment on charges that are serious like that, LET ALONE when 200 agents with fully auto weapons and CS/tear gas are at their door.

However, Koresh wasnt exactly *normal, reasonable nor sane*.....now was he.

You Sir have a lot to learn about the real world and how things really work. Some people lie, cheat, steal and murder. Just because some men have a badge does not mean they are above making poor or even illegal actions. 99% of Local, State and Fed Police are wonderful people. The 1% is what causes the problems in most cases. In both Waco and Ruby Ridge the 1% were in charge and you can see what happened. A lot of good people died for no reason what so ever.

Waco & Ruby Ridge was the end all to be all of Federal Law Enforcement screw ups and it will take a generation to live that down if ever. I will never again fully trust my Government after what I saw happen at Ruby Ridge and Waco. I love my County, but some times my Government scares the hell out of me.

I am glad we did not have more people like you"*normal*, *reasonable*, *sane*" in 1776 or I guess we all would be speaking with an English accent today.

lmao

In my 21 years of "living in the real world", I've lived more than some 45 year olds I know and I'm sure a lot of 45year olds in general. But thanks.

No shit people lie, steal, cheat and murder.

There's quite a bit of difference between a King and our Federal Government. If you could never try to equate them to even being remotely the same, that'd be great.

And you're right, a lot of federal agents and little kids did die that day. For no reason whatsoever. If only David had cooperated with them, none of it would have happened.

Aside from this subject at all, answer me two questions.

Since when is incest ok?
and
Since when is molesting little children ok?

Who said he was molesting children and having incest?

I have not heard that. Please enlighten me.

And even if it is true. I don't beleive stopping those things is in the mission statement of the Alchohol, Tobacco, and Firearms.

To boot, if it is true, they did not need to assault the compound, they should have picked him up in town, or sent in local law enforcement,

Posted: 12/19/2005 10:15:31 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Quoted:
The Davidians were religious kooks, but if that's illegal then a lot of ARFCOMMERS are in trouble, too.

They didn't deserve to be burned to death.

The government behaved shamefully before, during and after.

True however, I think a GOOD MAJORITY if not everyone on here would consider incestual relations with little children as well as marrying them, a little fucking far out there Rodent.

And the .gov propaganda machine wins over another convert.

Posted: 12/19/2005 10:20:43 AM EDT

[#17]

I forget the exact quote the guy in the courtroom said. Something like flashbangs are harmless or something to that degree. Maybe he should try holding one in his lap and pull the pin.

Posted: 12/19/2005 10:31:10 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Basically, dont fuck with the goverment.

The government went in peacefully in the beginning so the bloodshed didnt have to happen. Koresh forced them to do what they did.

No sweat off my back. Go Federal Agents! Woot!

Federal agents - 1
Psycho-wacko religious fuckers who do illegal stuff - (-12)

And the little kids trapped in there? They got what they deserved too?

Holy fuck.

It is fucking pathetic at how many of you people cannot read.
Did I say anything about anyone "deserving being killed"? Let alone kids? God-fucking-damn.

No one there deserved to die. But when you got fucking 200 federal agents knocking at your door, fully locked and loaded, with fucking APC's.....why do you resist? Only a fucking idiot or a person who's guilty is going to resist.
There is always posts on here talking about "what would you do if your door was knocked down at 3am with cops in there?" No one ever says "Well, I'd resist."
A *normal*, *reasonable*, *sane* person is not going to resist the goverment on charges that are serious like that, LET ALONE when 200 agents with fully auto weapons and CS/tear gas are at their door.

However, Koresh wasnt exactly *normal, reasonable nor sane*.....now was he.

You Sir have a lot to learn about the real world and how things really work. Some people lie, cheat, steal and murder. Just because some men have a badge does not mean they are above making poor or even illegal actions. 99% of Local, State and Fed Police are wonderful people. The 1% is what causes the problems in most cases. In both Waco and Ruby Ridge the 1% were in charge and you can see what happened. A lot of good people died for no reason what so ever.

Waco & Ruby Ridge was the end all to be all of Federal Law Enforcement screw ups and it will take a generation to live that down if ever. I will never again fully trust my Government after what I saw happen at Ruby Ridge and Waco. I love my County, but some times my Government scares the hell out of me.

I am glad we did not have more people like you"*normal*, *reasonable*, *sane*" in 1776 or I guess we all would be speaking with an English accent today.

lmao

In my 21 years of "living in the real world", I've lived more than some 45 year olds I know and I'm sure a lot of 45year olds in general. But thanks.

No shit people lie, steal, cheat and murder.

There's quite a bit of difference between a King and our Federal Government. If you could never try to equate them to even being remotely the same, that'd be great.

And you're right, a lot of federal agents and little kids did die that day. For no reason whatsoever. If only David had cooperated with them, none of it would have happened.

Aside from this subject at all, answer me two questions.

Since when is incest ok?
and
Since when is molesting little children ok?

Who said he was molesting children and having incest?

I have not heard that. Please enlighten me.

And even if it is true. I don't beleive stopping those things is in the mission statement of the Alchohol, Tobacco, and Firearms.

To boot, if it is true, they did not need to assault the compound, they should have picked him up in town, or sent in local law enforcement,

I'd like to know too as i've heard all those claims of incest and child molestation be found complete bull. Seeing as he was 8 or 9 when this went down it wouldn't surprize me that he believed all the claims made.

Posted: 12/19/2005 10:37:52 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

I've seen multiple movies/videos on Waco. Thanks.

Really?

Which ones?

Please name those movies/videos about Waco that you've seen.

And no, I dont hang around wacko-psychotic religious freaks who have incestual relations and go against the laws.

Neither do we.

But so what?

This is a country of laws, and not a nation that is ruled by rogue gvernment agencies who can decide who lives and who dies, without legal justification or judicial oversight.

Dont try to turn this onto the Government as their fault those people died.

Sorry, but 'the government' already did that...when it decided to attack or 'assault' the occupants of a church in Central Texas.

They knew what was coming and what they could do to deflate the situation.

I don't think anyone, with the possible exception of those government agents on the scene, really 'knew what was coming.'

They chose not too. *shrug*

Did the children likewise get to choose NOT to be incinerated?

I don't think so.

And quit 'shrugging'! Your shoulders are beginning to droop.

If Koresh had surrendered to the "big, bad Gubmint", no one would have died.

And IF the .gov folks hadn't chosen to act in the manner in which they did, NO ONE would have died, either.

But you said that Koresh was a 'wacko', and that means that the .gov folks must likewise be considered 'wacko.'

The government wasnt out to just go for a "rough & tough, shoot'em fun spree".

Oh, most definitely, they surely were!

No doubt about it!

Eric The(Truthful)Hun

Posted: 12/19/2005 10:58:18 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

Go Federal Agents! Woot!

Hmmm, 4 dead federal agents after 'tangling' with 6 or 7 fat-assed red-necks with-exactly-zero amount-of-military-training-between-them.

Aside from this subject at all, answer me two questions.

Since when is incest ok?

Uh, do you understand what 'incest' means?

What 'incest' was David Koresh guilty of, in your mind, at least?

Since when is molesting little children ok?

Who said it's 'OK'?

No one here.

And Texas Child Protective Services did an investigation of child sexual abuse involving David Koresh and dismissed the complaints....and closed the file.

And neither you nor I know what occurred at the Mount Carmel Church...after that.

Eric The(WellRead)Hun

Posted: 12/19/2005 11:02:57 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
In my 21 years ....

This explains a few things.

There's quite a bit of difference between a King and our Federal Government.

Not that day.

And you're right, a lot of federal agents and little kids did die that day. For no reason whatsoever.

Oh yes there was a reason! That was janet the BBQ queen of Waco(to include ~~schmuck~~Schumer and Klinton).
Of the politicians I'd invite in my home or trust in general, those three are the least likely and they happen to be in charge that day. The leaderships ability to wave their majic wand from a distance and have everyone murdered, as shown in the film, is ghastly and smacks of the way a KING rules his subjects.

Since when is incest ok?
and
Since when is molesting little children ok?

You really are blind to the underlying issue, but I dont need to say anything else cause Eric is going to school you now.

Posted: 12/19/2005 11:17:11 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:In both Waco and Ruby Ridge the 1% were in charge and you can see what happened. A lot of good people died for no reason what so ever.

Bullshit.

Sworn officers and Soldiers swear to uphold the constitution, and know full well what their responsibilities are when doing their job. If anyone ever gave the order to shoot indiscriminately into an occupied building, I'd expect the officer to tell them to pound sand and retire if he had the balls. There's a whole lot of this, and it's not the only illegal part of what the feds did. I hold any agent who was there past the initial raid as complicit in the deaths of those people. They knew what the limits of their job were, and they chose to exceed it. I'm sure the .gov apologists will still believe what they want to and still say the government was justified in doing what they had to, but there's no justification for shooting into buildings full of unarmed men, women, and children.

Pick that one apart "apologists", and we'll move onto the fed's next fuck-up.

Dave

Posted: 12/19/2005 11:27:51 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Quoted:In both Waco and Ruby Ridge the 1% were in charge and you can see what happened. A lot of good people died for no reason what so ever.

Bullshit.

Sworn officers and Soldiers swear to uphold the constitution, and know full well what their responsibilities are when doing their job. If anyone ever gave the order to shoot indiscriminately into an occupied building, I'd expect the officer to tell them to pound sand and retire if he had the balls. There's a whole lot of this, and it's not the only illegal part of what the feds did. I hold any agent who was there past the initial raid as complicit in the deaths of those people. They knew what the limits of their job were, and they chose to exceed it. I'm sure the .gov apologists will still believe what they want to and still say the government was justified in doing what they had to, but there's no justification for shooting into buildings full of unarmed men, women, and children.

Pick that one apart "apologists", and we'll move onto the fed's next fuck-up.

Dave

Dave, the people I was talking about getting killed were the folks inside the compound not the ATF/FBI. Sorry if I did not make that clear. Like they always say; Evil thrives when good men do nothing.

Posted: 12/19/2005 11:32:26 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
Basically, dont fuck with the goverment.

The government went in peacefully in the beginning so the bloodshed didnt have to happen. Koresh forced them to do what they did.

No sweat off my back. Go Federal Agents! Woot!

Federal agents - 1
Psycho-wacko religious fuckers who do illegal stuff - (-12)

I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

Just figured I'd repost that for you.
Maybe you forgot what it said.

Posted: 12/19/2005 11:36:29 AM EDT

[#25]

For goodness sakes......find another hero!!!!!!

Kissing Koresh's ass is doing nothing for the pro-gun community.

Semper Fi,
ASO544

P.S. - Both sides screwed up.

Posted: 12/19/2005 11:37:26 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
Watch the 2nd tape, NEW REVALATIONS

and you'll be even MORE pissed off.

Shaped charges.
It's for the children.

Posted: 12/19/2005 11:40:19 AM EDT

[#27]

This thread is shameful.

Posted: 12/19/2005 11:41:15 AM EDT

[#28]

To anyone who prizes his or her freedom, Waco needs no introduction. But you do need to know about recent developments in the investigation of the matter. The need is especially clear since most of the national media have been working hard to ignore the story--despite its listing on AP and UPI wire services, and discussion in the Washington Times, the Washington Post, and other sources.

First, there have been lawsuits filed by families of those killed at Waco and by some of the survivors. The suits were transferred to Judge Smith, the same judge who sentenced some of the Davidians to long prison terms, and is generally thought of as a very pro-government, very anti-Davidian judge. The government of course moved to dismiss the cases. To the surprise of many, Judge Smith refused, leaving open such claims as the Davidians' assertion that the government shot at people leaving the burning building. This, Smith stated, had at least some evidence to support it, and if proven would "shock the conscience of the court."

Judge Smith must have been startled at the next development. Without warning, the Texas Department of Public Safety appeared in his court. TDPS announced that the Texas Rangers (which are part of TDPS) had two large rooms full of Waco evidence that had never seen the light of day. It explained that members of the public--documentary producer Michael McNulty and attorney David Hardy--had been asking for copies, but that when it offered to make them, federal agencies forbade it. Yet when McNulty and Hardy asked the federal agencies for copies, the same agencies claimed that they couldn't give them because only the Rangers had control over the evidence. TDPS added that it did not want to be responsible for withholding the evidence, hinted that it did not trust the federal agencies to have it, and offered to file the entire mass (estimated at twelve tons of material) in court!

Things became more lively when TDPS explained just what was in the evidence. TDPS commissioner Jim Francis said that it contained government fired projectiles, which appeared to be pyrotechnic (that is, fire producing). It appears to this author that may prove that FBI started the fire that killed 74 people, including two dozen children. He allowed he was no expert, but said the evidence would be at least "problematic" for the FBI's position. (The projectiles, fired from the FBI's M-79 grenade launchers, including pyrotechnic CS gas rounds.These expel the CS by burning a mixture similar to black powder, and are stamped with warnings that they cause fires and may not be used against buildings.) The evidence was so sensitive, Francis explained, that he had instructed the Rangers to keep FBI out of the evidence locker until it could be secured with the court, and he had ordered the Rangers to commence their own investigation.

he revelation of hidden evidence must have shocked Judge Smith, hitherto seen as very pro-government. He issued an order accepting the Ranger's evidence. Then he issued a second order, which is utterly unprecedented. He ordered all federal agencies to turn over to the court all evidence "in any way relevant to the events at Mt. Carmel [the Davidian building]." No one had even thought to ask for such an order; a civil case, judges just don't order all the evidence turned in, whether it has been subpoenaed or not. An anonymous law enforcement authority was quoted in the Dallas Morning News as predicting that "The Justice Department is going to have a fit!"

That's a safe prediction. Attorney Hardy's Freedom of Information Act suit drove ATF to admit that it had three and maybe four video cameras filming what happened at the Davidians' front door, and likely showing exactly what had happened when the first shots were fired--but ATF claimed all copies had vanished. So had an infrared tape of the building, which would conclusively show if and when the Davidians fired. We may now know exactly where those tapes are sitting, and exactly why they've had to be hidden for six years.

Now for the things we can't talk about--or, at least, things were we can only reveal part of the story. Michael McNulty, producer of the documentary "Waco: The Rules of Engagement," is producing a second documentary. If the first one was stunning--it won an Academy Award nomination--the second one makes it look mild. With solid evidence, most of it from the government's own files, he shows that the FBI may be guilty of lying, perjury, and homicide. He found the 40 mm
Pyrotechnic shells, and tied them to the fire. Retired FBI and government sources agreed to talk. The picture that emerges is even grimmer than we might have thought.

Some Davidians had claimed that FBI fired into the building and shot at people who tried to escape. McNulty has uncovered STRONG proof that the statements are true. FBI infrared tapes, far better than those shown in his first documentary, show not only the FBI gunshots but also the FBI shooters. A law enforcement videotape shows the muzzle flashes. Internal FBI reports confirm that gunfire was heard from one of their sniper positions. This is only a tiny part of the new evidence McNulty has uncovered, but it should give you a guess as to what the rest is like.

Here are just some of the indictments, each carefully documented, that McNulty's new documentary will level. Yes, there is a reason why 74 people burned rather than escape the burning building. Those who came out the back way--away from the media cameras--had been shot as they tried to get out. Yes, the "brave federal agents" got trigger-happy. Yes, a federal agency levied war against American civilians--including two dozen children.

McNulty showed his documentary to Congressional staffs recently, and the effect was immediate. Congressmen and Staffers were seen leaving in tears, others in angry determination. Now there is talk of new congressional hearings- done the right way, for once. The Washington Times carried the story under the headlines "The Waco Cover-up Begins to Unravel."

Sources close to the case demanded anonymity to avoid Judicial Reprisals. The Waco dam is cracking.
****************************
The 2ndAmendmentNews Team

The way to protect your own rights is to protect the rights of others. Our right to own and use firearms and all of our rights are under attack.

Posted: 12/19/2005 11:41:51 AM EDT

[#29]

I bet a lot of people here identify with this guy on top of the APC.

Posted: 12/19/2005 11:43:13 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
THat movie definatly made my blood boil but it was obvious that both sides were screwed up. Once four agents died they did'nt give a shit about children, they torched the place after it appeared that Koresh would not come out. But lets face it, when the ATF came knocking the davidians were waiting for them with thier guns drawn and loaded, they knew about the ATF ambush before hand. Who shot first? I dunno. was'nt there. But it did show how sloppy the ATF was in thier work and how much they were cowboys. They could've resolved the situation peacefully but they'd rather "strong arm" people on tape to make a name for themselves. Well they made a name for themsleves........

Really?
Then why hasn't the ATF produced the two video tapes that would show the Davidians shooting at them from the front of the house?
Why haven't they produced the steel doors?
Why weren't more ATF agents killed?
Why did the B-D let the ATF agents go, once they said they would leave the property?
Watching the tapes of the raid, (from the back of the house, cause the tapes from the front have somehow disapeared) how much fire is the ATF putting downrange?
How much are they receiving in turn?
Why did they immeadiatly kill the B-Ds dogs, which were penned up?

Posted: 12/19/2005 11:44:51 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Basically, dont fuck with the goverment.

The government went in peacefully in the beginning so the bloodshed didnt have to happen. Koresh forced them to do what they did.

No sweat off my back. Go Federal Agents! Woot!

Federal agents - 1
Psycho-wacko religious fuckers who do illegal stuff - (-12)

And the little kids trapped in there? They got what they deserved too?

Holy fuck.

It is fucking pathetic at how many of you people cannot read.
Did I say anything about anyone "deserving being killed"? Let alone kids? God-fucking-damn.

No one there deserved to die. But when you got fucking 200 federal agents knocking at your door, fully locked and loaded, with fucking APC's.....why do you resist? Only a fucking idiot or a person who's guilty is going to resist.There is always posts on here talking about "what would you do if your door was knocked down at 3am with cops in there?" No one ever says "Well, I'd resist."
A *normal*, *reasonable*, *sane* person is not going to resist the goverment on charges that are serious like that, LET ALONE when 200 agents with fully auto weapons and CS/tear gas are at their door.

However, Koresh wasnt exactly *normal, reasonable nor sane*.....now was he.

Posted: 12/19/2005 11:45:03 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:

. But lets face it, when the ATF came knocking the davidians were waiting for them with thier guns drawn and loaded, they knew about the ATF ambush before hand.

If the Davidians had wanted to, they could have WIPED OUT the entire ATF contingent.

Posted: 12/19/2005 11:46:09 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Basically, dont fuck with the goverment.

The government went in peacefully in the beginning so the bloodshed didnt have to happen. Koresh forced them to do what they did.

No sweat off my back. Go Federal Agents! Woot!

Federal agents - 1
Psycho-wacko religious fuckers who do illegal stuff - (-12)

And the little kids trapped in there? They got what they deserved too?

Holy fuck.

It is fucking pathetic at how many of you people cannot read.
Did I say anything about anyone "deserving being killed"? Let alone kids? God-fucking-damn.

No one there deserved to die. But when you got fucking 200 federal agents knocking at your door, fully locked and loaded, with fucking APC's.....why do you resist? Only a fucking idiot or a person who's guilty is going to resist.There is always posts on here talking about "what would you do if your door was knocked down at 3am with cops in there?" No one ever says "Well, I'd resist."
A *normal*, *reasonable*, *sane* person is not going to resist the goverment on charges that are serious like that, LET ALONE when 200 agents with fully auto weapons and CS/tear gas are at their door.

However, Koresh wasnt exactly *normal, reasonable nor sane*.....now was he.

www.national-army-museum.ac.uk/images/lexington.jpg

+1

Posted: 12/19/2005 11:52:06 AM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
I bet a lot of people here identify with this guy on top of the APC.

www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/graphics/agent2.jpeg

Same guy from ruby ridge ?

Posted: 12/19/2005 11:53:49 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I bet a lot of people here identify with this guy on top of the APC.

www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/graphics/agent2.jpeg

Same guy from ruby ridge ?

This guy?

Posted: 12/19/2005 11:56:35 AM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
I bet a lot of people here identify with this guy on top of the APC.
www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/graphics/agent2.jpeg

I think there's some young'ins in IRQ who've been exposed to too much door-to-door operations. Consequently It's blinded and numbed them to the Waco atrocity and they cant tell the difference between a terrorist filled war zone and the situation at Waco.

Posted: 12/19/2005 12:00:48 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted: This guy?

www.nndb.com/people/007/000028920/lon-horiuchi.jpg

Lon Horiuchi was at Waco as well as Ruby Ridge.
He was in sniper position Sierra 1, the undercover house at the back of the compound, out of view of the media.
The FBI reported that there was no gunfire on April 19.
Captain David Byrnes, Texas Rangers, was tasked with investigating the reports of gunfire from Sierra 1.
He asked Lon Horiuchi if he had fired at all on April 19.
Horiuchi replied that he had not fired a single round during the seige.
Captain Byrnes found 4 expended shell casing in sierra 1.

Anyone have an answer for that?

Posted: 12/19/2005 12:02:49 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
Was this the show that discussed with IR experts who clearly ID'ed the agents around back ambush escaping BDs running from the fire?

and then grind the guy in the tracks of the tank-like vehicle?

Nice.

Fucking Jerry Reno's crowd.

and what about the hooker with the ATF who was rounding up press people to go cover the action (as they were staging the teams)?

That atrocity was not investigated to the length it needed to be, and heads didn't roll as they should have.

87 dead............. Many of them children

Fuck it just clicked .

That is what that guy is going off about .

Posted: 12/19/2005 12:02:51 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:

Lon Horiuchi was THE MURDER at Ruby Ridge.

.gov admitted he followed ILLEGAL, UNCONSTITUIONAL ORDERS killing Vicky Weaver

The State of Idaho tried to prosecute, but .gov said they couldn't - Lon was "doing his job"

Posted: 12/19/2005 12:02:51 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I bet a lot of people here identify with this guy on top of the APC.
www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/graphics/agent2.jpeg

I think there's some young'ins in IRQ who've been exposed to too much door-to-door operations. Consequently It's blinded and numbed them to the Waco atrocity and they cant tell the difference between a terrorist filled war zone and the situation at Waco.

The real problem will be when those folks think that a career in law enforcement is great way to put their experience to good use.

Sorta like latter-day Hessians!

Help!

Eric The(Patriot)Hun

Posted: 12/19/2005 12:08:36 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I bet a lot of people here identify with this guy on top of the APC.
www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/graphics/agent2.jpeg

I think there's some young'ins in IRQ who've been exposed to too much door-to-door operations. Consequently It's blinded and numbed them to the Waco atrocity and they cant tell the difference between a terrorist filled war zone and the situation at Waco.

The real problem will be when those folks think that a career in law enforcement is great way to put their experience to good use.

Sorta like latter-day Hessians!

Help!

Eric The(Patriot)Hun

Dear God, I pray they can realize the difference.

Posted: 12/19/2005 12:10:18 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:
Quoted: This guy?

www.nndb.com/people/007/000028920/lon-horiuchi.jpg

Lon Horiuchi was at Waco as well as Ruby Ridge.
He was in sniper position Sierra 1, the undercover house at the back of the compound, out of view of the media.
The FBI reported that there was no gunfire on April 19.
Captain David Byrnes, Texas Rangers, was tasked with investigating the reports of gunfire from Sierra 1.
He asked Lon Horiuchi if he had fired at all on April 19.
Horiuchi replied that he had not fired a single round during the seige.
Captain Byrnes found 4 expended shell casing in sierra 1.

Anyone have an answer for that?

Sounds of crickets...

Posted: 12/19/2005 12:12:54 PM EDT

[#43]

There are always elements in the government that are scared of religious groups owning guns. The Mormons come to mind. They fought the U.S. Army to a standstill giving saner minds time to take charge of things and stop the war.

Most people just want to live their lives in peace, unmolested by government. The government has other ideas depending on who is in charge at the moment. You may find the Army in your livingroom just because of where you live or where you go to church.

Posted: 12/19/2005 12:30:24 PM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Basically, dont fuck with the goverment.

The government went in peacefully in the beginning so the bloodshed didnt have to happen. Koresh forced them to do what they did.

No sweat off my back. Go Federal Agents! Woot!

Federal agents - 1
Psycho-wacko religious fuckers who do illegal stuff - (-12)

And the little kids trapped in there? They got what they deserved too?

Holy fuck.

It is fucking pathetic at how many of you people cannot read.
Did I say anything about anyone "deserving being killed"? Let alone kids? God-fucking-damn.

No one there deserved to die. But when you got fucking 200 federal agents knocking at your door, fully locked and loaded, with fucking APC's.....why do you resist? Only a fucking idiot or a person who's guilty is going to resist.There is always posts on here talking about "what would you do if your door was knocked down at 3am with cops in there?" No one ever says "Well, I'd resist."
A *normal*, *reasonable*, *sane* person is not going to resist the goverment on charges that are serious like that, LET ALONE when 200 agents with fully auto weapons and CS/tear gas are at their door.

However, Koresh wasnt exactly *normal, reasonable nor sane*.....now was he.

www.national-army-museum.ac.uk/images/lexington.jpg

Apparently my one post about not being able to read, still hasnt sunk in yet.

I've already addressed this issue.

Today is a little different than 230 years ago. For one, we dont have a King 4500miles away, imposing unjust taxes and trying to rule every aspect of our world.

Once again, there have already been posts about what people would do/should do if confronted with police at their door. All of those posts by people have said that they would go with the police. Not ONE PERSON said they would defy and resist the police, thereby enticing a shootout and potentially killing themselves/family.

So basically, that point is pretty goddamn moot.

Posted: 12/19/2005 12:30:53 PM EDT

[#45]

'The Mormons fought the U.S Army to a standstill'????

When? Where?

Eric The(Huh?)Hun

Posted: 12/19/2005 12:32:20 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
Quoted: This guy?

www.nndb.com/people/007/000028920/lon-horiuchi.jpg

Lon Horiuchi was at Waco as well as Ruby Ridge.
He was in sniper position Sierra 1, the undercover house at the back of the compound, out of view of the media.
The FBI reported that there was no gunfire on April 19.
Captain David Byrnes, Texas Rangers, was tasked with investigating the reports of gunfire from Sierra 1.
He asked Lon Horiuchi if he had fired at all on April 19.
Horiuchi replied that he had not fired a single round during the seige.
Captain Byrnes found 4 expended shell casing in sierra 1.

Anyone have an answer for that?

Pretty sloppy sniper work if he's shooting when he's not supposed AND leaves evidence behind.

Anyone else see anything fishy about that?

Posted: 12/19/2005 12:35:10 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: This guy?

www.nndb.com/people/007/000028920/lon-horiuchi.jpg

Lon Horiuchi was at Waco as well as Ruby Ridge.
He was in sniper position Sierra 1, the undercover house at the back of the compound, out of view of the media.
The FBI reported that there was no gunfire on April 19.
Captain David Byrnes, Texas Rangers, was tasked with investigating the reports of gunfire from Sierra 1.
He asked Lon Horiuchi if he had fired at all on April 19.
Horiuchi replied that he had not fired a single round during the seige.
Captain Byrnes found 4 expended shell casing in sierra 1.

Anyone have an answer for that?

Pretty sloppy sniper work if he's shooting when he's not supposed AND leaves evidence behind.

Anyone else see anything fishy about that?

I think its pretty fucking fishy that hes not in jail for murdering innocent people.

Posted: 12/19/2005 12:35:54 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:
Quoted:

. But lets face it, when the ATF came knocking the davidians were waiting for them with thier guns drawn and loaded, they knew about the ATF ambush before hand.

If the Davidians had wanted to, they could have WIPED OUT the entire ATF contingent.

Yep, if they wanted to attack the ATF they would have done it when they were rolling up in cattle trailers, easy soft target

Posted: 12/19/2005 12:37:46 PM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:
Quoted:

Aside from this subject at all, answer me two questions.

Since when is incest ok?
and
Since when is molesting little children ok?

HOLY FUCK!!!!

When has anyone said incest was ok!?! I pray to god.... tell us, when did anyone say molesting little children was ok?

[sound familiar?]

Every post when someone bitched about it being ok to preach their own religion.

And for the next 3 posts after this, if you've never heard/seen the reports about the Davidians and incest, then I cant believe you're even posting here talking about what you think you know.

Pretty sad day when you people try to argue something and you only know what you want to know. When something out there that proves you wrong or at least partially wrong, you deny it. Pretty goddamned fucking sad.

Until you guys do some more so-called "research" on Waco, I'm done with this post.

Posted: 12/19/2005 12:38:58 PM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Basically, dont fuck with the goverment.

The government went in peacefully in the beginning so the bloodshed didnt have to happen. Koresh forced them to do what they did.

No sweat off my back. Go Federal Agents! Woot!

Federal agents - 1
Psycho-wacko religious fuckers who do illegal stuff - (-12)

And the little kids trapped in there? They got what they deserved too?

Holy fuck.

It is fucking pathetic at how many of you people cannot read.
Did I say anything about anyone "deserving being killed"? Let alone kids? God-fucking-damn.

No one there deserved to die. But when you got fucking 200 federal agents knocking at your door, fully locked and loaded, with fucking APC's.....why do you resist? Only a fucking idiot or a person who's guilty is going to resist.There is always posts on here talking about "what would you do if your door was knocked down at 3am with cops in there?" No one ever says "Well, I'd resist."
A *normal*, *reasonable*, *sane* person is not going to resist the goverment on charges that are serious like that, LET ALONE when 200 agents with fully auto weapons and CS/tear gas are at their door.

However, Koresh wasnt exactly *normal, reasonable nor sane*.....now was he.

www.national-army-museum.ac.uk/images/lexington.jpg

Apparently my one post about not being able to read, still hasnt sunk in yet.

I've already addressed this issue.

Today is a little different than 230 years ago. For one, we dont have a King 4500miles away, imposing unjust taxes and trying to rule every aspect of our world.

Once again, there have already been posts about what people would do/should do if confronted with police at their door. All of those posts by people have said that they would go with the police. Not ONE PERSON said they would defy and resist the police, thereby enticing a shootout and potentially killing themselves/family.

So basically, that point is pretty goddamn moot.

True that.
But thats immaterial to Waco, so let's set up the Waco scenario.
You know the police are coming, you go outside to talk to them, see what they want.
The police open fire - what do you do?

ETA: I think some might disagree with what I highlighted in blue.
Might not have a King, but we do have a gov't who increasingly erodes our rights.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Just finished watching "Waco: The Rules Of Engagement..." OLUCKYMAN BUMP! TELL US MORE! (Page 2 of 15)

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