Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Basically, dont fuck with the goverment. The government went in peacefully in the beginning so the bloodshed didnt have to happen.  Koresh forced them to do what they did. No sweat off my back.  Go Federal Agents!  Woot! Federal agents - 1 Psycho-wacko religious fuckers who do illegal stuff - (-12) And the little kids trapped in there?  They got what they deserved too? Holy fuck. It is fucking pathetic at how many of you people cannot read. Did I say anything about anyone "deserving being killed"?  Let alone kids?  God-fucking-damn. No one there deserved to die.  But when you got fucking 200 federal agents knocking at your door, fully locked and loaded, with fucking APC's.....why do you resist?  Only a fucking idiot or a person who's guilty is going to resist. There is always posts on here talking about "what would you do if your door was knocked down at 3am with cops in there?"  No one ever says "Well, I'd resist." A *normal*, *reasonable*, *sane* person is not going to resist the goverment on charges that are serious like that, LET ALONE when 200 agents with fully auto weapons and CS/tear gas are at their door. However, Koresh wasnt exactly *normal, reasonable nor sane*.....now was he. You Sir have a lot to learn about the real world and how things really work. Some people lie, cheat, steal and murder. Just because some men have a badge does not mean they are above making poor or even illegal actions.  99% of Local, State and Fed Police are wonderful people. The 1% is what causes the problems in most cases. In both Waco and Ruby Ridge the 1% were in charge and you can see what happened. A lot of good people died for no reason what so ever. Waco & Ruby Ridge was the end all to be all of Federal Law Enforcement screw ups and it will take  a generation to live that down if ever. I will never again fully trust my Government after what I saw happen at Ruby Ridge and Waco. I love my County, but some times my Government scares the hell out of me. I am glad we did not have more people like you"*normal*, *reasonable*, *sane*" in 1776 or I guess we all would be speaking with an English accent today. lmao In my 21 years of "living in the real world", I've lived more than some 45 year olds I know and I'm sure a lot of 45year olds in general.  But thanks. No shit people lie, steal, cheat and murder. There's quite a bit of difference between a King and our Federal Government.  If you could never try to equate them to even being remotely the same, that'd be great. And you're right, a lot of federal agents and little kids did die that day.  For no reason whatsoever.  If only David had cooperated with them, none of it would have happened. Aside from this subject at all, answer me two questions. Since when is incest ok? and Since when is molesting little children ok? Who said he was molesting children and having incest? I have not heard that.  Please enlighten me. And even if it is true.  I don't beleive stopping those things is in the mission statement of the Alchohol, Tobacco, and Firearms. To boot, if it is true, they did not need to assault the compound, they should have picked him up in town, or sent in local law enforcement,

In almost every report I've read that has to do with Waco.

And no, its not the job of the ATF.  But when you people are sitting here saying, "why cant they preach their own religion?"  And trying to argue the religion part, it makes you all hypocrites.  Because everyday people are sent to prison for doing the exact same thing as these people, but these people have the cloak of "religion" on them.  

The Branch Davidians believe and follow the main teachings of the Seventh-Day Adventist Church, but have their own variations. For example, rape, incest, paedophilia and polygamy are rampant in their society, their leader, Warren Jeff’s is thought to have at least 70 wives, and have conceived children to some of these when they were under eighteen years old. His father, at the age of 90, married his 75 and 76; they were 16 and 14 respectively

There, now all of you so-called "experts" on this matter, have heard/read about them and incestual relations.  
Now you can pick apart that.

Quoted: Since when is incest ok? and Since when is molesting little children ok?

Apparantly if you are a HOT female school teacher molesting young teenage boys, that's okay with most

Quoted: In almost every report I've read that has to do with Waco. And no, its not the job of the ATF.  But when you people are sitting here saying, "why cant they preach their own religion?"  And trying to argue the religion part, it makes you all hypocrites.  Because everyday people are sent to prison for doing the exact same thing as these people, but these people have the cloak of "religion" on them.

Interesting.
Were those allegations ever proven?
Or were they like the allegations of the B-D being involved in drugs, having a meth lab.
IIRC, Texas DPS had carried out an investigation prior to the raid on Feb. 28th, and had found no evidence of child molestation/abuse.

Quoted: Quoted: In almost every report I've read that has to do with Waco. And no, its not the job of the ATF.  But when you people are sitting here saying, "why cant they preach their own religion?"  And trying to argue the religion part, it makes you all hypocrites.  Because everyday people are sent to prison for doing the exact same thing as these people, but these people have the cloak of "religion" on them.   Interesting. Were those allegations ever proven? Or were they like the allegations of the B-D being involved in drugs, having a meth lab. IIRC, Texas DPS had carried out an investigation prior to the raid on Feb. 28th, and had found no evidence of child molestation/abuse.

SSSSHHHH! He still thinks the ATF is a righteous organization.

Quoted: 'The Mormons fought the U.S Army to a standstill'???? When? Where? Eric The(Huh?)Hun

Link

Acting on rumors that the Mormons were rebelling against federal authority, President James Buchanan replaced Brigham Young as governor in 1857. Buchanan sent a 2,500-man military force to accompany the new governor Alfred Cumming to the territory, starting the Utah War.

The prospective Utah War in 1857 caused a population boom in Utah and Cedar Counties because many Salt Lake area residents moved south and sought refuge in Provo and nearby settlements. But the war had its biggest economic impact in Cedar County where the occupying army, under General Johnston, was settled. This was important because the U.S. Army purchased horses, food, and other supplies from the settlers, providing local residents with a monopoly on the major source of money in the entire Utah Territory.

Settlers in the town of Milton supplied feed for the horses of Mormon troops stationed in canyon passes watching for Johnston's Army. Lot Smith of Stoddard blocked Echo Canyon, burned US Army supply trains, and stampeded government horses and cattle. This forced the soldiers to stop for the winter before reaching the salt lake valley. The soldiers could do nothing until spring. The Federal troops under Cumming wintered at Camp Scott, Wyoming.

Quoted: Today is a little different than 230 years ago.  For one, we dont have a King 4500miles away, imposing unjust taxes and trying to rule every aspect of our world.

Well, I'm glad we got rid of that intrusive government and it's taxes.  

Once again, there have already been posts about what people would do/should do if confronted with police at their door.  All of those posts by people have said that they would go with the police.  Not ONE PERSON said they would defy and resist the police, thereby enticing a shootout and potentially killing themselves/family.

If the Gestapo - any Gestapo - kicks down my door, I hope I am prepared with the tools and courage to resist.

Think of Germany's jews as WWII approached. If even ten percent of them had killed the first Brown Shirt that came through their door, the holocaust never would have happened.

Even the densest thugs - even those who truley believe that they have "right" or a god's authority behind them - will eventually scratch their heads and say "Hmmm, every time we, ah, administer justice, one of us gets killed." They'll come up with a new party platform or have a revelation from God or whatever, then declare victory and go pick on somebody weaker.

Quoted: Quoted: I've seen multiple movies/videos on Waco.  Thanks. Really? Which ones? Please name those movies/videos about Waco that you've seen. And no, I dont hang around wacko-psychotic religious freaks who have incestual relations and go against the laws. Neither do we. But so what? This is a country of laws, and not a nation that is ruled by rogue gvernment agencies who can decide who lives and who dies, without legal justification or judicial oversight. Dont try to turn this onto the Government as their fault those people died. Sorry, but 'the government' already did that...when it decided to attack or 'assault' the occupants of a church in Central Texas. They knew what was coming and what they could do to deflate the situation. I don't think anyone, with the possible exception of those government agents on the scene, really 'knew what was coming.' They chose not too.  *shrug* Did the children likewise get to choose NOT to be incinerated? I don't think so. And quit 'shrugging'! Your shoulders are beginning to droop. If Koresh had surrendered to the "big, bad Gubmint", no one would have died. And IF the .gov folks hadn't chosen to act in the manner in which they did, NO ONE would have died, either. But you said that Koresh was a 'wacko', and that means that the .gov folks must likewise be considered 'wacko.' The government wasnt out to just go for a "rough & tough, shoot'em fun spree".   Oh, most definitely, they surely were! No doubt about it! Eric The(Truthful)Hun

I agree, it is a nation of laws.  But yet, then again, no one is arguing that.  

No, the government isnt at fault for those people dying, no matter how hard you try to twist it.  The Davidians were the reason the cops were there in the first place.

Come on Eric, you're telling me, when 200 federal agents show up, fully locked and loaded with multiple APC vehicles telling you to come out with your hands up, that you dont know whats going to happen in the end if you dont?
You really think the government is going to do a show of force for 6mos and then just back down?
You of all people should have more common sense than that.  Don't just put a point up, for the sake of arguing.  

I wasnt aware that .gov folks practiced and preached incest and pedophilia.  Weird.

Maybe they were, maybe they weren't.  We'll never know because we werent there as federal agents and their higherups.  But until that day we find out for sure, I give them the benefit of the doubt.

Quoted: Quoted: Go Federal Agents!  Woot! ericthehun.zoto.com/img/45/60a7527029a7d7944d5431939d5cfbb4-.jpg ericthehun.zoto.com/img/45/4af41f19afb4d1dd9f3845f7172a9622-.jpg ericthehun.zoto.com/img/45/dcc26e3b2f4312544cd46b9c7699fbde-.jpg Hmmm, 4 dead federal agents after 'tangling' with 6 or 7 fat-assed red-necks with-exactly-zero amount-of-military-training-between-them. Aside from this subject at all, answer me two questions. Since when is incest ok? Uh, do you understand what 'incest' means? What 'incest' was David Koresh guilty of, in your mind, at least? Since when is molesting little children ok? Who said it's 'OK'? No one here. And Texas Child Protective Services did an investigation of child sexual abuse involving David Koresh and dismissed the complaints....and closed the file. And neither you nor I know what occurred at the Mount Carmel Church...after that. Eric The(WellRead)Hun

There was 95 people in a building, fully stocked with weapons and 200+ agents outside.  I would HOPE they hit something.  I'm sure that I'm like most people and amazed they didnt kill more.  

Yeah, I'm pretty sure what the definition of incest is.  And what incest was he guilty of?  Having sex with family members of his.  How else would it be incest?  

Everyone that keeps on saying that they can preach their own religion, is saying that its ok to molest little children because thats what the Branch Davidians believe.


And so what if TPS did an inquiry?  There are inquiries all of the time into child abuse cases that turn up nothing, when in fact, something has happened.  That is pretty moot as well.

Quoted: SSSSHHHH! He still thinks the ATF is a righteous organization.

Ooohhhhh, OK.  


Hope he wises up when he returns from IRQ.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I've seen multiple movies/videos on Waco.  Thanks. Really? Which ones? Please name those movies/videos about Waco that you've seen. And no, I dont hang around wacko-psychotic religious freaks who have incestual relations and go against the laws. Neither do we. But so what? This is a country of laws, and not a nation that is ruled by rogue gvernment agencies who can decide who lives and who dies, without legal justification or judicial oversight. Dont try to turn this onto the Government as their fault those people died. Sorry, but 'the government' already did that...when it decided to attack or 'assault' the occupants of a church in Central Texas. They knew what was coming and what they could do to deflate the situation. I don't think anyone, with the possible exception of those government agents on the scene, really 'knew what was coming.' They chose not too.  *shrug* Did the children likewise get to choose NOT to be incinerated? I don't think so. And quit 'shrugging'! Your shoulders are beginning to droop. If Koresh had surrendered to the "big, bad Gubmint", no one would have died. And IF the .gov folks hadn't chosen to act in the manner in which they did, NO ONE would have died, either. But you said that Koresh was a 'wacko', and that means that the .gov folks must likewise be considered 'wacko.' The government wasnt out to just go for a "rough & tough, shoot'em fun spree".   Oh, most definitely, they surely were! No doubt about it! Eric The(Truthful)Hun I agree, it is a nation of laws.  But yet, then again, no one is arguing that.   No, the government isnt at fault for those people dying, no matter how hard you try to twist it.  The Davidians were the reason the cops were there in the first place. Come on Eric, you're telling me, when 200 federal agents show up, fully locked and loaded with multiple APC vehicles telling you to come out with your hands up, that you dont know whats going to happen in the end if you dont? You really think the government is going to do a show of force for 6mos and then just back down? You of all people should have more common sense than that.  Don't just put a point up, for the sake of arguing.   I wasnt aware that .gov folks practiced and preached incest and pedophilia.  Weird. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't.  We'll never know because we werent there as federal agents and their higherups.  But until that day we find out for sure, I give them the benefit of the doubt.

Did you forget the firefight at the door when they first approached ? Maybe the ATF fired first, maybe the Davidians fired first, no one can say for sure. All i know if i happened to be one of the people inside and i was fired on first i would have a hard time coming out after that.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Aside from this subject at all, answer me two questions. Since when is incest ok? and Since when is molesting little children ok? HOLY FUCK!!!! When has anyone said incest was ok!?!  I pray to god.... tell us, when did anyone say molesting little children was ok? [sound familiar?] Every post when someone bitched about it being ok to preach their own religion. And for the next 3 posts after this, if you've never heard/seen the reports about the Davidians and incest, then I cant believe you're even posting here talking about what you think you know. Pretty sad day when you people try to argue something and you only know what you want to know.  When something out there that proves you wrong or at least partially wrong, you deny it.  Pretty goddamned fucking sad. Until you guys do some more so-called "research" on Waco, I'm done with this post.

tyman, when the ATF FIRST approached Howell/Koresh,
he met them at the front door, some words were exchanged,
then he closed the door. After that, gunfire erupted.
most of the ammo went through that front door.
The bullet holes that went through that door that would
indicate the direction f travel of the expended rounds.
It would help ascertain who shot first; the BDs or the ATF.
That front door was taken as evidence after the whole ordeal,
and was NEVER seen again.
If the BDs fired first, wouldn't that door be used as Exhibit A
in the coming trial?
Nobody knows where it is. How did it somehow mysteriously get lost?

Keep on giving Federal Government the benefit of the doubt, tyman.
There here to help us.

Quoted: Quoted: SSSSHHHH! He still thinks the ATF is a righteous organization. Ooohhhhh, OK.  www.glocktalk.com/images/smilies/outta%20here.gif Hope he wises up when he returns from IRQ.

lmfao

Here we go again.

What are you people, like freakin 12 years old?

Goddamn.  Some of you need to grow the fuck up.


NOwhere in any of my posts have I ever said any federal agency is "righteous".

jesus christ.

Quoted: tyman, when the ATF FIRST approached Howell/Koresh, he met them at the front door, some words were exchanged, then he closed the door. After that, gunfire erupted. most of the ammo went through that front door. The bullet holes that went through that door that would indicate the direction f travel of the expended rounds. It would help ascertain who shot first; the BDs or the ATF. That front door was taken as evidence after the whole ordeal, and was NEVER seen again. If the BDs fired first, wouldn't that door be used as Exhibit A in the coming trial? Nobody knows where it is. How did it somehow mysteriously get lost? Keep on giving Federal Government the benefit of the doubt, tyman. There here to help us.

The Branch Davidian lawyer visited the scene during the seige.

He testified, UNDER OATH, that the bullet holes were from the ATF side of the door.   (metal door)

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: SSSSHHHH! He still thinks the ATF is a righteous organization. Ooohhhhh, OK.  www.glocktalk.com/images/smilies/outta%20here.gif Hope he wises up when he returns from IRQ.   lmfao Here we go again. What are you people, like freakin 12 years old? Goddamn.  Some of you need to grow the fuck up. NOwhere in any of my posts have I ever said any federal agency is "righteous". jesus christ.

Whats this your 4th or 5th post after saying you were done with this thread ?

Quoted: tyman, when the ATF FIRST approached Howell/Koresh, he met them at the front door, some words were exchanged, then he closed the door. After that, gunfire erupted. most of the ammo went through that front door. The bullet holes that went through that door that would indicate the direction f travel of the expended rounds. It would help ascertain who shot first; the BDs or the ATF. That front door was taken as evidence after the whole ordeal, and was NEVER seen again. If the BDs fired first, wouldn't that door be used as Exhibit A in the coming trial? Nobody knows where it is. How did it somehow mysteriously get lost? Keep on giving Federal Government the benefit of the doubt, tyman. There here to help us.

I dont know all of it, no one does unfortunately except the people there.  

Trial evidence gets lost all of the time.  I'm not making excuses for the .gov, but who knows.  Even if they did fire the first shots, what does it mean as a whole?
Has every engagement every SWAT/SRT team in the history of special teams, been started by the bad guy(s)?  Has a SWAT team never stormed a house/building/complex first?
Like I said, I'm not making excuses for them but .

Quoted: Quoted: tyman, when the ATF FIRST approached Howell/Koresh, he met them at the front door, some words were exchanged, then he closed the door. After that, gunfire erupted. most of the ammo went through that front door. The bullet holes that went through that door that would indicate the direction f travel of the expended rounds. It would help ascertain who shot first; the BDs or the ATF. That front door was taken as evidence after the whole ordeal, and was NEVER seen again. If the BDs fired first, wouldn't that door be used as Exhibit A in the coming trial? Nobody knows where it is. How did it somehow mysteriously get lost? Keep on giving Federal Government the benefit of the doubt, tyman. There here to help us. I dont know all of it, no one does unfortunately except the people there.   Trial evidence gets lost all of the time.  I'm not making excuses for the .gov, but who knows.  Even if they did fire the first shots, what does it mean as a whole?Has every engagement every SWAT/SRT team in the history of special teams, been started by the bad guy(s)?  Has a SWAT team never stormed a house/building/complex first? Like I said, I'm not making excuses for them but .

Sure was a lot of evidence missing.
All that video tape, gone....

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: SSSSHHHH! He still thinks the ATF is a righteous organization. Ooohhhhh, OK.  www.glocktalk.com/images/smilies/outta%20here.gif Hope he wises up when he returns from IRQ.   lmfao Here we go again. What are you people, like freakin 12 years old? Goddamn.  Some of you need to grow the fuck up. NOwhere in any of my posts have I ever said any federal agency is "righteous". jesus christ. Whats this your 4th or 5th post after saying you were done with this thread ?

I had to answer some stuff, but now I'm done.


It just scares me at how some people are so goddamned blatantly anti-government because they want to take peoples guns away, that people hate them for everything else too.  How people can be so narrow-minded and yet, be allowed to carry weapons is mind-boggling.

Have fun I guess.

Quoted: Quoted: tyman, when the ATF FIRST approached Howell/Koresh, he met them at the front door, some words were exchanged, then he closed the door. After that, gunfire erupted. most of the ammo went through that front door. The bullet holes that went through that door that would indicate the direction f travel of the expended rounds. It would help ascertain who shot first; the BDs or the ATF. That front door was taken as evidence after the whole ordeal, and was NEVER seen again. If the BDs fired first, wouldn't that door be used as Exhibit A in the coming trial? Nobody knows where it is. How did it somehow mysteriously get lost? Keep on giving Federal Government the benefit of the doubt, tyman. There here to help us. I dont know all of it, no one does unfortunately except the people there.   Trial evidence gets lost all of the time.  I'm not making excuses for the .gov, but who knows.  Even if they did fire the first shots, what does it mean as a whole? Has every engagement every SWAT/SRT team in the history of special teams, been started by the bad guy(s)?  Has a SWAT team never stormed a house/building/complex first? Like I said, I'm not making excuses for them but .

And upon what body of knowledge do you base THAT particular claim?

I'm a trial attorney, and, NO, trial evidence does NOT get lost all the time.  In my 15 years experience, only one piece of evidence ever got "lost," and it got lost before there was a lawsuit, not after 80 people died.  Memos get lost, pictures vanish, but a several HUNDRED pound door?

And, of course, you know that WHEN something does manage to get "lost," evidence sanctions hold it against the party that "lost" it.  Meaning in this case, the jusry owuld be instructed thatthe door COURL tell them conclusively who shot first, but after the government, who had exclusive control over it, it got "lost."   They will be free to draw whatever cojnclusions they wish.  

And your question, "Even if they did fire first, what does that mena as a whole?"

Is that a serious question?  It means everyone else posting here is right, that's what it means.

You do not execute a search warrant by engaging the subject in a firefight which YOU start. It's not a license to kill, it's a license to look for things.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: SSSSHHHH! He still thinks the ATF is a righteous organization. Ooohhhhh, OK.  www.glocktalk.com/images/smilies/outta%20here.gif Hope he wises up when he returns from IRQ.   lmfao Here we go again. What are you people, like freakin 12 years old? Goddamn.  Some of you need to grow the fuck up. NOwhere in any of my posts have I ever said any federal agency is "righteous". jesus christ. Whats this your 4th or 5th post after saying you were done with this thread ? I had to answer some stuff, but now I'm done. It just scares me at how some people are so goddamned blatantly anti-government because they want to take peoples guns away, that people hate them for everything else too.  How people can be so narrow-minded and yet, be allowed to carry weapons is mind-boggling. Have fun I guess.

And I suppose you believe Randy, Vicki, and Sammy Weaver all got what they deserved as well?  

Quoted: Some of you need to grow the fuck up. NOwhere in any of my posts have I ever said any federal agency is "righteous".

Some of YOU need to realize door-to-door activities in IRQ are far different than door-to-door activities here in America.  The Dividians, regardless of what they did to break the law or suposidly break the law, did not justify war like tactics on OUR OWN citizens.  It was overkill and flat out murder on the gov's part.  

Quoted: tyman, when the ATF FIRST approached Howell/Koresh, he met them at the front door, some words were exchanged, then he closed the door. After that, gunfire erupted. most of the ammo went through that front door. The bullet holes that went through that door that would indicate the direction f travel of the expended rounds. It would help ascertain who shot first; the BDs or the ATF. That front door was taken as evidence after the whole ordeal, and was NEVER seen again. If the BDs fired first, wouldn't that door be used as Exhibit A in the coming trial? Nobody knows where it is. How did it somehow mysteriously get lost? Keep on giving Federal Government the benefit of the doubt, tyman. There here to help us.

With out taking a side.......a door that was shot from both directions would have no bearing on which was fired first or second.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Aside from this subject at all, answer me two questions. Since when is incest ok? and Since when is molesting little children ok? HOLY FUCK!!!! When has anyone said incest was ok!?!  I pray to god.... tell us, when did anyone say molesting little children was ok? [sound familiar?] Every post when someone bitched about it being ok to preach their own religion. And for the next 3 posts after this, if you've never heard/seen the reports about the Davidians and incest, then I cant believe you're even posting here talking about what you think you know. Pretty sad day when you people try to argue something and you only know what you want to know.  When something out there that proves you wrong or at least partially wrong, you deny it.  Pretty goddamned fucking sad. Until you guys do some more so-called "research" on Waco, I'm done with this post.

No you are not.  You make these claims with no evidence.  Again, if it is indeed true about the incest, post a link, provide the proof.

You argue like a liberal - making claims with no evidence.

Quoted: It just scares me at how some people are so goddamned blatantly anti-government because they want to take peoples guns away, that people hate them for everything else too.  How people can be so narrow-minded and yet, be allowed to carry weapons is mind-boggling. Have fun I guess.

You'll make a fine JBT.

Quoted: Quoted: tyman, when the ATF FIRST approached Howell/Koresh, he met them at the front door, some words were exchanged, then he closed the door. After that, gunfire erupted. most of the ammo went through that front door. The bullet holes that went through that door that would indicate the direction f travel of the expended rounds. It would help ascertain who shot first; the BDs or the ATF. That front door was taken as evidence after the whole ordeal, and was NEVER seen again. If the BDs fired first, wouldn't that door be used as Exhibit A in the coming trial? Nobody knows where it is. How did it somehow mysteriously get lost? Keep on giving Federal Government the benefit of the doubt, tyman. There here to help us. With out taking a side.......a door that was shot from both directions would have no bearing on which was fired first or second.

Quite true.
The claim though, was that there were about 100 incoming rounds through that door.
This was made by one of Koresh's lawyers, who was a USMC Vietnam combat vet, who had been inside the compound to talk with Koresh during the seige.
He testified before Congress that he did not see any outgoing rounds, only incoming rounds.

Quoted: Quoted: tyman, when the ATF FIRST approached Howell/Koresh, he met them at the front door, some words were exchanged, then he closed the door. After that, gunfire erupted. most of the ammo went through that front door. The bullet holes that went through that door that would indicate the direction f travel of the expended rounds. It would help ascertain who shot first; the BDs or the ATF. That front door was taken as evidence after the whole ordeal, and was NEVER seen again. If the BDs fired first, wouldn't that door be used as Exhibit A in the coming trial? Nobody knows where it is. How did it somehow mysteriously get lost? Keep on giving Federal Government the benefit of the doubt, tyman. There here to help us. With out taking a side.......a door that was shot from both directions would have no bearing on which was fired first or second.

What if it has 250 9mm holes going in and no holes coming out?

I think a good forensic guy might be able to tell things, particularly if the holes were close together.  

Quoted: Quoted: no survivor from the Davideans was EVER convicted of any crime, Several of them were convicted of possession of destructive devices (grenades) and either possession of a machine gun or firing on federal officers. The jury found them not guilty but the judge threw it out and gave them  maximum sentences. They got railroaded even after getting out of the fire alive. I remember this happening, but does anyone know the legal mechanism a judge can use to nullify a jury vote?

I thought Jury Nullification would trump the judge.

Quoted: It just scares me at how some people are so goddamned blatantly anti-government because they want to take peoples guns away, that people hate them for everything else too.  How people can be so narrow-minded and yet, be allowed to carry weapons is mind-boggling.

Maybe because the guns are only the first things to be "taken away".  Any government that doesn't trust me to own a defensive weapon certainly doesn't deserve my complete trust.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Basically, dont fuck with the goverment. The Branch Davidians believe and follow the main teachings of the Seventh-Day Adventist Church, but have their own variations. For example, rape, incest, paedophilia and polygamy are rampant in their society, their leader, Warren Jeff’s is thought to have at least 70 wives, and have conceived children to some of these when they were under eighteen years old. His father, at the age of 90, married his 75 and 76; they were 16 and 14 respectively Now you can pick apart that.

Ok, but that named Warren Jeff, not Koresh.  As for having multiple wives, so fucking what.  If you want to have ten wives it does not bother me, and if bothers other people, they need to mind there own business.

And again, please provide some evidence that links Koresh to incest.  Quotes from former members or Koresh stating such on tape in a sermon, etc.

Quoted:

With out taking a side.......a door that was shot from both directions would have no bearing on which was fired first or second.

Yes, it certainly could be evidence of which side fired first....

If any of the 'incoming' rounds were shown to be fired from an angle which suggested the door was open, when the shot was fired, it would be evidence that it was fired before any of the 'outgoing' shots were fired.

Recall that Koresh claims that when he opened the door to greet the ATF agents, they fired first, wounding him, while the door was open.

The door was immediately closed, and the firing on both sides commenced.

But the total absense of the door at the crime scene makes anyone think that it had been disposed of by the side that might not like to have it closely examined...and that would be the feds.

They were, of course, the only side left standing...

Eric The(Outraged)Hun

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: tyman, when the ATF FIRST approached Howell/Koresh, he met them at the front door, some words were exchanged, then he closed the door. After that, gunfire erupted. most of the ammo went through that front door. The bullet holes that went through that door that would indicate the direction f travel of the expended rounds. It would help ascertain who shot first; the BDs or the ATF. That front door was taken as evidence after the whole ordeal, and was NEVER seen again. If the BDs fired first, wouldn't that door be used as Exhibit A in the coming trial? Nobody knows where it is. How did it somehow mysteriously get lost? Keep on giving Federal Government the benefit of the doubt, tyman. There here to help us. With out taking a side.......a door that was shot from both directions would have no bearing on which was fired first or second. What if it has 250 9mm holes going in and no holes coming out? I think a good forensic guy might be able to tell things, particularly if the holes were close together.

It STILL would not be able to tell you who shot first, even if ALL of the holes were going in from the outside. The most you could tell from that senario would be that none were fired from the inside after the door was slammed shut.

The door means jack shit in this instance.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Aside from this subject at all, answer me two questions. Since when is incest ok? and Since when is molesting little children ok? HOLY FUCK!!!! When has anyone said incest was ok!?!  I pray to god.... tell us, when did anyone say molesting little children was ok? [sound familiar?] Every post when someone bitched about it being ok to preach their own religion. And for the next 3 posts after this, if you've never heard/seen the reports about the Davidians and incest, then I cant believe you're even posting here talking about what you think you know. Pretty sad day when you people try to argue something and you only know what you want to know.  When something out there that proves you wrong or at least partially wrong, you deny it.  Pretty goddamned fucking sad. Until you guys do some more so-called "research" on Waco, I'm done with this post.

Until you show me where child abuse and incest were proven or charged crimes involved in the raid the thread can probably do without you.  Or do we just gun down the homes and famlies of all accused child offenders if they resist?  Fuck it.  Level the place huh?

Quoted: Quoted: With out taking a side.......a door that was shot from both directions would have no bearing on which was fired first or second. Yes, it certainly could be evidence of which side fired first.... If any of the 'incoming' rounds were shown to be fired from an angle which suggested the door was open, when the shot was fired, it would be evidence that it was fired before any of the 'outgoing' shots were fired. Recall that Koresh claims that when he opened the door to greet the ATF agents, they fired first, wounding him, while the door was open. The door was immediately closed, and the firing on both sides commenced. But the total absense of the door at the crime scene makes anyone think that it had been disposed of by the side that might not like to have it closely examined...and that would be the feds. They were, of course, the only side left standing... Eric The(Outraged)Hun

I will stand by my previous post that the door cannot "tell" who fired first.

Now take testimony and compare to holes in the door and you "might" have a case.......but it would be very thin evidence and you are right that only one side can tell their story now.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: tyman, when the ATF FIRST approached Howell/Koresh, he met them at the front door, some words were exchanged, then he closed the door. After that, gunfire erupted. most of the ammo went through that front door. The bullet holes that went through that door that would indicate the direction f travel of the expended rounds. It would help ascertain who shot first; the BDs or the ATF. That front door was taken as evidence after the whole ordeal, and was NEVER seen again. If the BDs fired first, wouldn't that door be used as Exhibit A in the coming trial? Nobody knows where it is. How did it somehow mysteriously get lost? Keep on giving Federal Government the benefit of the doubt, tyman. There here to help us. With out taking a side.......a door that was shot from both directions would have no bearing on which was fired first or second. What if it has 250 9mm holes going in and no holes coming out? I think a good forensic guy might be able to tell things, particularly if the holes were close together.   It STILL would not be able to tell you who shot first, even if ALL of the holes were going in from the outside. The most you could tell from that senario would be that none were fired from the inside after the door was slammed shut. The door means jack shit in this instance.

I believe you are wrong.

I'm no forensic expert, but I think the deformations made in the door would be evidence.  I know for a fact that bullet strikes in glass CAN (not always, but can) be used to time which direction bullets were fired first.

Most importantly, whoever "lost" that door was looking at it and disagreed with you.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I bet a lot of people here identify with this guy on top of the APC. www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/graphics/agent2.jpeg I think there's some young'ins in IRQ who've been exposed to too much door-to-door operations.  Consequently It's blinded and numbed them to the Waco atrocity and they cant tell the difference between a terrorist filled war zone and the situation at Waco.   The real problem will be when those folks think that a career in law enforcement is great way to put their experience to good use. Sorta like latter-day Hessians! Help! Eric The(Patriot)Hun Dear God, I pray they can realize the difference.

+1...I'm afraid the next 20 years are going to be really fucked up on the homefront...

Quoted: It just scares me at how some people are so goddamned blatantly anti-government because they want to take peoples guns away, that people hate them for everything else too.  How people can be so narrow-minded and yet, be allowed to carry weapons is mind-boggling.

My nomination for stupid comment of the day...

Quoted: Quoted: 'The Mormons fought the U.S Army to a standstill'???? When? Where? Eric The(Huh?)Hun Link Acting on rumors that the Mormons were rebelling against federal authority...

That's the most white washed version of events I've ever seen. Nothing is there about the Nauvoo Legion (militia), their scorched earth tactics to deny the invading Army supplies, burning U.S. Army supply trains, burning down Fort Bridger in Wyoming, etc. The past is more colorful than the historical cover-up. I wonder what they will say about Waco in 150 years.

Quoted: I believe you are wrong.

I could be......but common sense seems to be on my side.

I'm no forensic expert, but I think the deformations made in the door would be evidence.  I know for a fact that bullet strikes in glass CAN (not always, but can) be used to time which direction bullets were fired first.

Glass and metal.....apples and oranges.

Most importantly, whoever "lost" that door was looking at it and disagreed with you.

That is a wildass guess on so many levels it doesn't really need a response.

Quoted: Quoted: I believe you are wrong. I could be......but common sense seems to be on my side. I'm no forensic expert, but I think the deformations made in the door would be evidence.  I know for a fact that bullet strikes in glass CAN (not always, but can) be used to time which direction bullets were fired first. Glass and metal.....apples and oranges. Most importantly, whoever "lost" that door was looking at it and disagreed with you. That is a wildass guess on so many levels it doesn't really need a response.

Either way, it is immaterial.
A piece of evidence the defense felt was critical to proving their case that the ATF was wild, reckless, and agreessive (shooting through doors, something the ATF/FBI denied ever happened) was lost by the gov't.
It is just very, very suspicious.

Quoted: Quoted: I believe you are wrong. I could be......but common sense seems to be on my side. I'm no forensic expert, but I think the deformations made in the door would be evidence.  I know for a fact that bullet strikes in glass CAN (not always, but can) be used to time which direction bullets were fired first. Glass and metal.....apples and oranges. Most importantly, whoever "lost" that door was looking at it and disagreed with you. That is a wildass guess on so many levels it doesn't really need a response.

Look, I said my forensic fu is weak, and I don't argue otherwise.

I know metal and glass are not the same, my argument STATES there's no direct correlation.

But if shooting through the door deforms it, then shooting the other way would, likewise, deform it.  That could certainly establish which shot of the two passed through first.

And as to losing a several hundred pound door that WAS SEIZED and removed as evidence (ie, not something they just forgot to get) and then lost, I think common sense is on my side.  IIRC, they trumped local authorities who were collecting it.

I deal in lawsuits, they KNEW there were criminal and civil trials coming, they have established protocols for cataloguing and creating a chain of evidence.  That thing got lost becuase someone wanted it to get lost.  There is no credible scenario to explain why it  wasn't where they put it so they'd have it when they needed it.  LIke I said, you could misfile a memo or a photo, you could damage a tape by storing it somewhere it shouldn't be.

But an oversized, metal front door with bullet holes in it only disappears becasue someone wanted it gone.  

 

they sure ditched any video they shot that day as well


Also the roof of "the bunker"

Quoted: Look, I said my forensic fu is weak, and I don't argue otherwise. I know metal and glass are not the same, my argument STATES there's no direct correlation. But if shooting through the door deforms it, then shooting the other way would, likewise, deform it.  That could certainly establish which shot of the two passed through first. And as to losing a several hundred pound door that WAS SEIZED and removed as evidence (ie, not something they just forgot to get) and then lost, I think common sense is on my side.  IIRC, they trumped local authorities who were collecting it. I deal in lawsuits, they KNEW there were criminal and civil trials coming, they have established protocols for cataloguing and creating a chain of evidence.  That thing got lost becuase someone wanted it to get lost.  There is no credible scenario to explain why it  wasn't where they put it so they'd have it when they needed it.  LIke I said, you could misfile a memo or a photo, you could damage a tape by storing it somewhere it shouldn't be. But an oversized, metal front door with bullet holes in it only disappears becasue someone wanted it gone.

Ya know the thing is neither one of us knows jack shit for sure.......we both are guessing.

As I stated I didn't want to take a side because for every point in this entire arguement, there is a counterpoint.

ETH summed it up best when he said "there is only one side left to tell the story".

Who knows what happened for sure to the door?

Who knows who fired first........I for one, believe it is possible that Koresh fired first.

It is also possible that he was really the son of God and invited the ATF in for bible study and they shot him for it.

I really don't know........and neither does any other poster on this board.

please read unintended consequences

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Basically, dont fuck with the goverment. The government went in peacefully in the beginning so the bloodshed didnt have to happen.  Koresh forced them to do what they did. No sweat off my back.  Go Federal Agents!  Woot! Federal agents - 1 Psycho-wacko religious fuckers who do illegal stuff - (-12) guess you didn't see it, or know people from waco. they were murdered I've seen multiple movies/videos on Waco.  Thanks. And no, I dont hang around wacko-psychotic religious freaks who have incestual relations and go against the laws. Dont try to turn this onto the Government as their fault those people died.  They knew what was coming and what they could do to deflate the situation.  They chose not too.  *shrug* If Koresh had surrendered to the "big, bad Gubmint", no one would have died.  The government wasnt out to just go for a "rough & tough, shoot'em fun spree".

Are you Iraq risking your life for our freedom?

If so, It's F-ing sad that you don't even know what freedom is supposed to mean.  

Quoted: Quoted: Look, I said my forensic fu is weak, and I don't argue otherwise. I know metal and glass are not the same, my argument STATES there's no direct correlation. But if shooting through the door deforms it, then shooting the other way would, likewise, deform it.  That could certainly establish which shot of the two passed through first. And as to losing a several hundred pound door that WAS SEIZED and removed as evidence (ie, not something they just forgot to get) and then lost, I think common sense is on my side.  IIRC, they trumped local authorities who were collecting it. I deal in lawsuits, they KNEW there were criminal and civil trials coming, they have established protocols for cataloguing and creating a chain of evidence.  That thing got lost becuase someone wanted it to get lost.  There is no credible scenario to explain why it  wasn't where they put it so they'd have it when they needed it.  LIke I said, you could misfile a memo or a photo, you could damage a tape by storing it somewhere it shouldn't be. But an oversized, metal front door with bullet holes in it only disappears becasue someone wanted it gone.     Ya know the thing is neither one of us knows jack shit for sure.......we both are guessing. As I stated I didn't want to take a side because for every point in this entire arguement, there is a counterpoint. ETH summed it up best when he said "there is only one side left to tell the story". Who knows what happened for sure to the door? Who knows who fired first........I for one, believe it is possible that Koresh fired first. It is also possible that he was really the son of God and invited the ATF in for bible study and they shot him for it. I really don't know........and neither does any other poster on this board.

I hear you.  IT's certainly possible Koresh/ Koresh follower fired first.

Lots of problems with the defense of the Feds (not that you're defending anyone, I mena defending as in court action, which I do for a living).  I'd hate to have to explain where the door and the tapes were to a jury.  

Quoted: Quoted: THat movie definatly made my blood boil but it was obvious that both sides were screwed up. Once four agents died they did'nt give a shit about children, they torched the place after it appeared that Koresh would not come out. But lets face it, when the ATF came knocking the davidians were waiting for them with thier guns drawn and loaded, they knew about the ATF ambush before hand. Who shot first? I dunno. was'nt there. But it did show how sloppy the ATF was in thier work and how much they were cowboys. They could've resolved the situation peacefully but they'd rather "strong arm" people on tape to make a name for themselves. Well they made a name for themsleves........ Really? Then why hasn't the ATF produced the two video tapes that would show the Davidians shooting at them from the front of the house? Why haven't they produced the steel doors? Why weren't more ATF agents killed? Why did the B-D let the ATF agents go, once they said they would leave the property? Watching the tapes of the raid, (from the back of the house, cause the tapes from the front have somehow disapeared) how much fire is the ATF putting downrange? How much are they receiving in turn? Why did they immeadiatly kill the B-Ds dogs, which were penned up?

I only saw the rules of engagement and the movie about waco, I was'nt actually there!
I don't know how they actually stored their weapons. Remember they also had children so they had to be careful how they stored them. And it was well known from testimony that the Branch davidians KNEW that a raid was coming down. So for example if they were unarmed when the Feds showed up Why did'nt the feds just crash through the door with that Battering ram and flood in and arrest everyone???? HOw did the davidians prevent the ATF from knocking down the door? And how did they manage to get all their weapons locked and loaded so quickly if they were stored?? Watching the tape it seems that fire erupts before the "window" guy managed to even get up the ladder. They were deinatly armed before the ATF even exited the vehicles. Does that mean the BD fired first? NO! I'm not saying that. But in the surviving "compound" tapes David himself said "if you guys come into my house waving guns at my children and women I'll meet you at the front door with a gun every time." (paraphrasing)
Here is what T-stox (the wise and all mighty Uber-tactician! ) thinks what happened based on the testimony. We all know the BD story, Paranoid, Army of Babylon, Comin to get us, ETc etc. And we know what cowboys the ATF are. So the BD were preparing for an assault by the Army of babylon. On that day they found out a raid was going down, so They armed themselves in the hope of "scaring off" or "confronting" or whatever, the ATF raiders, but they probably did not want to fire first. But they would "defend themselves" against an 'illegal', 'Satanic army'. Basically they felt they had a right to keep the feds off their propertay! The ATF went out of their way to be strong arm dicks who would use a "show of force" against the "wacko cult" to gain prestige and promotions for themselves. When both sides confronted eachother TSHTF! There is no way to tell who fired first. And no that missing door dont mean shit! Since bullet holes have no "timestamp" next to them you can 't tell when the first shot was fired. Even if all the holes were from ATF side, so what? It could've meant that a BD from the 2nd floor opened up first and they just let loose on the door in a panic reaction. Not saying the ATF were right but both sides were to blame for the escalation.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: This guy? www.nndb.com/people/007/000028920/lon-horiuchi.jpg Lon Horiuchi was at Waco as well as Ruby Ridge. He was in sniper position Sierra 1, the undercover house at the back of the compound, out of view of the media. The FBI reported that there was no gunfire on April 19. Captain David Byrnes, Texas Rangers, was tasked with investigating the reports of gunfire from Sierra 1. He asked Lon Horiuchi if he had fired at all on April 19. Horiuchi replied that he had not fired a single round during the seige. Captain Byrnes found 4 expended shell casing in sierra 1. Anyone have an answer for that? Pretty sloppy sniper work if he's shooting when he's not supposed AND leaves evidence behind. Anyone else see anything fishy about that?

You really don't get it do you?

He gunned down a woman holding a baby and got away with it.  He would not have even thought about covering his tracks as he wreaked his government sponsored vengence upon the Davidians.  He is above the law and knows it.   Thanks to people like you.  

You heard all the media reports demonizing the Davidians, and so like 90% of the Sheeple, you just lapped up the propaganda.  You figure they got what was coming to them.  
You are clueless, coldblooded, and ignorant, but at least you have lots of company.

Somehow though, I expect a little more from the citizens of Arfcom.  
I was about your age and was in the .Mil when it happened.  I used to think the Gov. could do no wrong.  Maybe one day a similar atrocity will give you a wakeup call.   Or maybe you will become a JBT.  Who the hell knows.  

What were the final number of casualties on the NKVD FBI and ATF side?  Just curious.

Quoted: What if it has 250 9mm holes going in and no holes coming out? I think a good forensic guy might be able to tell things, particularly if the holes were close together.

Metal door - just look which way the metal is bent



BTW - the Davidians lawyer visited during the Seige, and testified under OATH that the holes were  all from outside the house