buy or snag brass from a police range, etch the serial number on some projectiles, reload them up, hand the ammo out to gang bangers, and sit back and watch the hilarity ensue ball

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Heh

Quoted: Have posted links in HTF's, up to you guys now. I read through some of the proposed legislation in the various states, and it is AMAZING that these elected officials will take canned legislation from a lobbyist and submit it as their own.

Nothing new here. That's the way it is done nowadays. In NY whatever party is in control of either the Assembly or Senate controls what bills make it out of committee and to the floor for a vote. All voting is done along party lines so any bill released from committee is virtually assured passage in that house.    

ACS phone number and address: 10002 Aurora Avenue N. #4432
Seattle, WA 98133 Office #  425.742.2454  Fax #425.743.1452 Email address [email protected]

Another thought occurred on this, and there may be a silver lining:

My guess is this lobbying organization pushed this 'sample legislation' to the most ardent anti's throughout the land. Their names will be on the bills (full list and links for bills on page 4 of this thread) as sponsors. Since this is an election year, this might offer the opportunity to root a few of them out.

Find out who their political opponents are, both within their own parties and in opposing parties, and send them info on how (the anti) does little more than cut & paste legislation from lobbyists. Also consider newspapers, especially if they have criticized the (anti) in the past.

If someone can save full copies of the web pages (alas, I don't know how) that would be useful.

Especially this page & the 'sample legislation' http://ammunitionaccountability.org/Legislation.htm

The sponsors of this bill will continue to trot out similar legislation, this might be an opportunity to run a few of them out of office.

Quoted: Another thought occurred on this, and there may be a silver lining: My guess is this lobbying organization pushed this 'sample legislation' to the most ardent anti's throughout the land. Their names will be on the bills (full list and links for bills on page 4 of this thread) as sponsors. Since this is an election year, this might offer the opportunity to root a few of them out. Find out who their political opponents are, both within their own parties and in opposing parties, and send them info on how (the anti) does little more than cut & paste legislation from lobbyists. Also consider newspapers, especially if they have criticized the (anti) in the past. If someone can save full copies of the web pages (alas, I don't know how) that would be useful. Especially this page & the 'sample legislation' http://ammunitionaccountability.org/Legislation.htm The sponsors of this bill will continue to trot out similar legislation, this might be an opportunity to run a few of them out of office.

+1

I contacted my local GOP office and asked if I could help unseat my state rep (who sponsored this bill.)  Now he's asking if I want to run against him!  

State Rep contacted, and I passed on the "trail" of info starting with the Patent holders info up to, and including the end result, which was the proposed bill that hit the House Judiciary Committee here in PA on 8 Feb. Cut and Paste Lazyness by Democratic anti-gun dirtbags is unacceptable.

My e-mail response to these shitbags:

"Your ideas are so far from reality that I laughed out loud! Go find something better to occupy your time, like knitting a sweater, basket weaving, or volunteering to clean bedpans. Or better yet, do scoiety a favor and get a real job. If you can't find work I'm sure that some other do gooder would gladly take you under their wing and try to give your miserable and pathetic existance some meaning. Have you tried the DNC?"

Quoted: Quoted: Another thought occurred on this, and there may be a silver lining: My guess is this lobbying organization pushed this 'sample legislation' to the most ardent anti's throughout the land. Their names will be on the bills (full list and links for bills on page 4 of this thread) as sponsors. Since this is an election year, this might offer the opportunity to root a few of them out. Find out who their political opponents are, both within their own parties and in opposing parties, and send them info on how (the anti) does little more than cut & paste legislation from lobbyists. Also consider newspapers, especially if they have criticized the (anti) in the past. If someone can save full copies of the web pages (alas, I don't know how) that would be useful. Especially this page & the 'sample legislation' http://ammunitionaccountability.org/Legislation.htm The sponsors of this bill will continue to trot out similar legislation, this might be an opportunity to run a few of them out of office. +1 I contacted my local GOP office and asked if I could help unseat my state rep (who sponsored this bill.)  Now he's asking if I want to run against him!

\
Do it.

tag

Quoted: www.herlaadwinkel.nl/images/RCBS%20Bullet%20Puller.JPG?osCsid=fa6f0e66507087c8e5c3c43b2b27a865 www.screwfix.com/sfd/i/cat/48/p4069748_l.jpg www.wideners.com/images/fulls/bigboss.jpg

Pictogram of exactly what I was thinking.

However....an entrepreneurial-type person could start a cottage industry with a sander and an engraver ...and start putting your own remarks on the back of your bullets.

The question is....what do you want YOUR bullets to say ????

So who is Ravensforge? Stay tuned...

the phone number is the same as ACS as well.  the domain is registered to steve mace ([email protected]).  he's also the guy that answers the phone at ACS's number.

these guys hired a lobbying group in washington, that made a website with the sample legislation that libs can cut and paste to try to put through.

Cam's interview with Russel Ford (one of the guys pushing for the ammo encoding legislation via his paid lobbyists) is now available in 5 segments via youtube.  Links to all 5 segments are at the bottom of this post.

"Our group includes gun crime victims, industry representatives, law enforcement, public officials, public policy experts, and more"

I assume all are stock holders in the company that owns the patent to the technology.



This is the pile of crap that they tried to pass in Connecticut, it was stopped in committee for now.

[General Assembly    Raised Bill No. 603  
February Session, 2008    LCO No. 2583
*02583_______JUD*
Referred to Committee on Judiciary    
Introduced by:    
(JUD)    

AN ACT CONCERNING AMMUNITION CODING.
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives in General Assembly convened:
Section 1. (NEW) (Effective October 1, 2008) For the purposes of sections 2 to 4, inclusive, of this act, "coded ammunition"
means a bullet carrying a unique identifier etched onto the base of the bullet projectile by the manufacturer.
Sec. 2. (NEW) (Effective October 1, 2008) (a) On and after January 1, 2010, no person shall manufacture or sell at retail
in this state any handgun or assault weapon ammunition unless such ammunition is coded ammunition.
(b) Not later than January 1, 2012, any private person or person selling handgun or assault weapon ammunition at retail
in this state who possesses any non-coded handgun or assault weapon ammunition shall dispose of such ammunition
in a manner prescribed by the Commissioner of Public Safety.
Sec. 3. (NEW) (Effective October 1, 2008) (a) The Commissioner of Public Safety shall establish and maintain an
ammunition coding system database containing the information specified in subsections (b) and (c) of this section.
(b)  Any person who manufactures handgun or assault weapon ammunition in this state shall:
(1)  Register with the Commissioner of Public Safety in a manner prescribed by the commissioner; and
(2)  Maintain records on the business premises for a period of seven years concerning all sales, deliveries and other
transfers of coded ammunition to, from or within the state.
(c)  Any person who sells handgun or assault weapon ammunition at retail in this state shall:
(1)  Register with the Commissioner of Public Safety in a manner prescribed by the commissioner;
(2)  Record the following information in a format prescribed by the commissioner:
(A)  The date of each sale of coded ammunition;
(B)  The name of the purchaser;
(C)  The purchaser's motor vehicle operator's license number or other government-issued identification card number;
(D)  The date of birth of the purchaser;
(E)  The unique identifier of the ammunition sold; and
(F)  All other information prescribed by the commissioner; and
(3)  Maintain on the business premises a record of each sale of coded ammunition for a period of three years from the date
of such sale.
(d)  To the extent possible or practical, the commissioner shall establish the ammunition coding system database within
the framework of existing firearms databases.  The ammunition coding system database shall be operational not later than
January 1, 2010.
(e)  Information in the ammunition coding system database shall be confidential and not disclosed except, upon request, to
federal, state and local law enforcement officials acting in the performance of their official duties in the investigation of the
commission of a criminal offense.
Sec. 4. (NEW) (Effective October 1, 2008) (a)  Any person who sells handgun or assault weapon ammunition at retail in this
state who intentionally or knowingly fails to comply with, or falsifies the records required to be kept by, section 2 or 3 of this
act shall be guilty of a class A misdemeanor.
(b)  Any person who manufactures handgun or assault weapon ammunition in this state who fails to comply with the
provisions of section 2 or 3 of this act shall be liable for a civil penalty, imposed by the Commissioner of Public Safety after
notice and hearing in accordance with chapter 54 of the general statutes, of not more than one thousand dollars for a first
violation, not more than five thousand dollars for a second violation, and not more than ten thousand dollars for a
subsequent violation.
(c)  Any person who intentionally or knowingly removes, defaces, alters or obliterates the ammunition coding required by
section 2 of this act shall be guilty of a class A misdemeanor.
Sec. 5. (NEW) (Effective October 1, 2008) The Commissioner of Public Safety shall adopt regulations in accordance with
chapter 54 of the general statutes to carry out the provisions of sections 1 to 4, inclusive, of this act.

This act shall take effect as follows and shall amend the following sections:
Section 1 October 1, 2008 New section
Sec. 2 October 1, 2008 New section
Sec. 3 October 1, 2008 New section
Sec. 4 October 1, 2008 New section
Sec. 5 October 1, 2008 New section

Statement of Purpose:
To require that ammunition for handguns and assault weapons manufactured or sold in this state be coded with a unique
identifier and that records be maintained of all purchases of the coded ammunition and of the individuals who purchased
such ammunition.
[Proposed deletions are enclosed in brackets. Proposed additions are indicated by underline, except that when the entire
text of a bill or resolution or a section of a bill or resolution is new, it is not underlined.]

Meanwhile...On another Arfcom Thread...

So how do they think they'll stop that kind of ammo?

What kind of bullshit is this

Quoted: HOLY SHIT!  (NY Version) 2. No sale of ammunition shall be made unless the purchaser displays a current and valid gun permit and signs a statement which includes the declarations that: (a) the ammunition is purchased solely for use by the purchaser and (b) unless the purchaser is in the business of or has a legitimate reason to transfer the ammunition purchased, that the ammunition purchased will not be transferred. 3. It shall be unlawful to sell a bullet containing an explosive substance designed to detonate upon impact or armor piercing ammunition or to sell more than one hundred bullets within any ninety day period /FACEPALM

ha ha! even the brits can own more then that.

EDIT wrong thread

Quoted: Quoted: HOLY SHIT!  (NY Version) 2. No sale of ammunition shall be made unless the purchaser displays a current and valid gun permit and signs a statement which includes the declarations that: (a) the ammunition is purchased solely for use by the purchaser and (b) unless the purchaser is in the business of or has a legitimate reason to transfer the ammunition purchased, that the ammunition purchased will not be transferred. 3. It shall be unlawful to sell a bullet containing an explosive substance designed to detonate upon impact or armor piercing ammunition or to sell more than one hundred bullets within any ninety day period /FACEPALM ha ha! even the brits can own more then that.

limit of 100 rounds in 90 days!  I often shoot more than that in less than 10 minutes & I go shooting every week.  What a load of dung.  The bill was for now stopped at the committee level in AZ too, but we'll have to keep our eyes open as I'm sure they'll be trying again.

(c) Any person who intentionally or knowingly removes, defaces, alters or obliterates the ammunition coding required by section 2 of this act shall be guilty of a class A misdemeanor.

I guess this eans that you can't even shoot the stuff. Of course, they conveniently forgot to include firing the ammo as an acceptible form of defacing it.

Quoted: (c) Any person who intentionally or knowingly removes, defaces, alters or obliterates the ammunition coding required by section 2 of this act shall be guilty of a class A misdemeanor. I guess this eans that you can't even shoot the stuff. Of course, they conveniently forgot to include firing the ammo as an acceptible form of defacing it.

Yes.  A lot of versions of this bill also specified that there is a requirement that the number on the back of the bullet needs to be done in such a way that it can be easily identifiable after it has been shot.  A lot of bullets either warp or fragment on impact so I guess any bullet likely to fragment or warp would be banned.

Quoted: How are they gonna do that for frangible ammo.

yeah

Uneducated fuckwits do come up with some moronic bullshit, huh?

They should spend less time watching tripe on the television and more time actually learning about the world around them.

Ignoramuses.

OST

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Another thought occurred on this, and there may be a silver lining: My guess is this lobbying organization pushed this 'sample legislation' to the most ardent anti's throughout the land. Their names will be on the bills (full list and links for bills on page 4 of this thread) as sponsors. Since this is an election year, this might offer the opportunity to root a few of them out. Find out who their political opponents are, both within their own parties and in opposing parties, and send them info on how (the anti) does little more than cut & paste legislation from lobbyists. Also consider newspapers, especially if they have criticized the (anti) in the past. i If someone can save full copies of the web pages (alas, I don't know how) that would be useful. Especially this page & the 'sample legislation' http://ammunitionaccountability.org/Legislation.htm The sponsors of this bill will continue to trot out similar legislation, this might be an opportunity to run a few of them out of office. +1 I contacted my local GOP office and asked if I could help unseat my state rep (who sponsored this bill.)  Now he's asking if I want to run against him!   \ Do it.

i'll vote for ya

FU Arock.

Quoted: I'm a victim of gun crime.  An Uzi that should cost me $600 is $7000. Think they'll help me?

nicely put

Just when I thought my day was going pretty good, now it's in the toilet.



Should we all stock up now or what?  Take a friggin loan out to buy expensive ammo, before it becomes more expensive AND recorded.


Gotta take my blood pressure meds

Quoted: Cam's interview with Russel Ford (one of the guys pushing for the ammo encoding legislation via his paid lobbyists) is now available in 5 segments via youtube.  Links to all 5 segments are at the bottom of this post.

Towards the end of part two...

“A licensing fee for each bullet sold would also be required.”

“It would be nice to make money on this. You know, it really would."

"It’d be nice to have a return on our investment.”

Nothing but a scheme to make money off us.

Fortunately, it has no chance of passing here.

eta: lol the guy really is a dumbass. Cam pretty much destroyed every argument he made.

Quoted: Just when I thought my day was going pretty good, now it's in the toilet. Should we all stock up now or what?  Take a friggin loan out to buy expensive ammo, before it becomes more expensive AND recorded. Gotta take my blood pressure meds

You better take a double dose of your meds. It will be illegal to possess uncoded ammo after a certain date.

MILES DYSON MUST BE DESTROYED

Quoted: Quoted: Just when I thought my day was going pretty good, now it's in the toilet. Should we all stock up now or what?  Take a friggin loan out to buy expensive ammo, before it becomes more expensive AND recorded. Gotta take my blood pressure meds You better take a double dose of your meds. It will be illegal to possess uncoded ammo after a certain date.

That'll really will be a sad day for us.  

I've talked to my State Reps about this BS in IL. Hell, I called the author of the bill's office 3 times a day for 2 weeks to get a hold of him and tear him a new asshole about it. To my IL bretheren, Joe Dunn knows about these bills and has told me personally that he is against all of the ACS bills in the IL general assembly

Quoted: Quoted: Cam's interview with Russel Ford (one of the guys pushing for the ammo encoding legislation via his paid lobbyists) is now available in 5 segments via youtube.  Links to all 5 segments are at the bottom of this post. Towards the end of part two... “A licensing fee for each bullet sold would also be required.” “It would be nice to make money on this. You know, it really would." "It’d be nice to have a return on our investment.” Nothing but a scheme to make money off us. Fortunately, it has no chance of passing here. eta: lol the guy really is a dumbass. Cam pretty much destroyed every argument he made.

Very true.  They want to ban ammo by making rules that are impossible to follow (such as the requirement that the bullet have a serial number engraved on it in such a fashion as to make it still readable after the bullet fragments into thousands of pieces or warps into an unrecognizable lump of lead), but if that isn't successful then they want to make money on it.

BTT post - with link to latest 5/20/08 thread

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=711635

Remember - this group is hitting ever state in the US.

Remember - you have to do your part in WRITTING LETTERS and contacting you representatives in government, if you don't want microstamping to become law.



edit - sorry - the thread listed is for gun microstamping of ammo, not factory microstamping.. there was another factory mirostamping thread i was trying to link.

Quoted: Bullet serialization is coming eventually. First it was California, then Illinois, and now Hawaii. Why fight the right to own a rifle or a pistol will just make it were they can’t get ammo. With out ammo what do you have? An expensive club. They ammo manufactures go out of business, reloading is illegal, and all we need is an incident. Little Johnny or Jane would be alive today if we had serial numbers on bullets it would deter crime! It won’t criminals will still have ammo, you can’t stop drugs from being made or imported know your going to stop bullets. This is just more feeling good BS! Face the facts to most of the media gun owners are just criminals that haven’t been caught yet. Welcome to the United Socialist States of America.

Givem a capitalist society...someone will import black market ammo from 3rd world or 'Eastern European' sources.

Quoted: More. Here is their patent for serializing bullets United States Patent  7,143,697 Mace ,   et al.  December 5, 2006   -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ..... * * * * *

Just cause they have a patent #, doesn't mean they can do anything with it.

Quoted: Quoted: More. Here is their patent for serializing bullets United States Patent  7,143,697 Mace ,   et al.  December 5, 2006   -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ..... * * * * * Just cause they have a patent #, doesn't mean they can do anything with it.

Unless you can mandate your technology into the market by buying a few legislators.

if the make money , SOMEONE will show up claiming patent infringment.. or someone COULD file for similar patents as a forward looking remedy..... Just sayin'....

I fired off an email to all of my state congressmen and senators (WA).

I got a reponse back from one of them in less than 30m!
Here is what Senator Jim Kastama (D) WA had to say:

Dear Sgt Williams:

This bill, House Bill 3359, never had a hearing in the House Judiciary
Committee.  In fact, there was never a bill report produced on the
measure.  (That should tell you the lack of support for the measure.)
You may check the information available on the bill from the following
website:  http://apps.leg.wa.gov/billinfo/summary.aspx?bill=3359

Also keep in mind that our 2008 Legislative Session ended on March 13,
2008.  We will not be meeting again until the second Monday in January
2009.  And this bill, if the prime sponsor or anyone else wishes to
bring it up again, would have to reintroduce it then.  It does not
automatically remain active and on the books, so to speak.

Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts.  I hope you will
continue to do so, especially when measures are brought up in the next
session.  And the link that is referenced above, will, during the next
session, provide other information such as prefiled bills, bills in
committee, etc.

Best regards and thank you for your service to our Country--it is
appreciated!!!

Jim

Guess that is good news for us WA folk, good luck to the rest of you!

good luck

Quoted: Get your preban Wolf .223 here!  Only $3/round!  Free shipping to lower 48!!!  .50 BMG-call for prices.

stop triyng to fuck my buddies, I'll sell it for $2.75 a round

neener neener neener!!!!

TXL

OST

Quoted: So, basically, there is going to be a huge black market for pulled, edited, and reloaded cartridges. Whoo-hoo, reloaders, we-uns is gonna be rich!

I would bet that "reloading equipment" will become illegal.

Time for a constitutional amendment in TX that NEVER allows serial numbers to be required on bullets.

TXL

oh my god this is fucking hilarious, the logic behind this is just plain non-existant.

How about when they have produced mass numbers of serialized ammo and they run out of fucking space for numbers forcing them to graffiti the whole projectile in numbers and letters, yea the rifling in your barell will be illegal then . Oh and dont forget how many angry forensic examiners will blow their top when they have to play connect the dots with bullet fragments, and of course you cant forget all the bullets smashed from impact so none of the numbers are visable. i swear to god the people who thought this crap up should be in a nuthouse. oh and how about all the gun owners, forensic examiners, and criminals that will raise hell about this....i think all that would outweigh the stupid liberal fucks trying to pass this.


TIME TO STOCK UP ON AMMO THEN BURY IT

I've been following the TN bill since I first heard about it, and I wrote my State Representative and Senator expressing my concern over it.  For those who say stockpile ammo, that won't help.  At least the proposed bill in TN would ban non-stamped ammo after a certain date.  But, that is good news in the sense that makes it an ex post facto law and is therefore unconstitutional.

However, I do find the fiscal note for TN's bill interesting to say the least.  Basically, it states that the State would lose money on the deal.  First, tax revenue would decrease from the loss of ammo sales (since no code ammunition is manufactured, there would be no ammo to sell).  Second, the ammo coding sytem database (ACSD) cannot be funded as the bill is written as there would be no ammo sales to support it.  Third, there is a one-time and reccuriring costs that would have to be funded.  Finally, "There will not be a sufficient number of prosecutions for state or local government to experience any significant increase in revenue or expenditures."  

So basically, it will be a drain to the State's financial resources (at a time there is a budget shortfall) both in lost revenue and additional manpower/resources, will not produce the funds required to pay for itself, and will solve few, if any crimes.  Not to mention, there will be a lot of pissed-off voters (myself included) who cannot buy ammo for their rifles and pistols.

James

Quoted: For those who say stockpile ammo, that won't help.  At least the proposed bill in TN would ban non-stamped ammo after a certain date.  But, that is good news in the sense that makes it an ex post facto law and is therefore unconstitutional.

That would not be considered an ex post facto law.

I sent email to my state senator and representative. I got an email back from my senator within 5 minutes, letting me know "That bill is dead for this year." My senator is a life member of the NRA, and God love her. I was going to send hard copies to both, but since she replied already, I only have to send the hard copy to my representative.