I thought that the CoC was not a necessity for a corporation or trust as the "legal entity" would not have a citizenship.

Feel free not to send one, but don't complain if BATFE sends you a letter asking for one.  

So, because there is no CLEO Signature and photos, is the entirety of the second page left blank?

So, because there is no CLEO Signature and photos, is the entirety of the second page left blank?

I assume you're looking at a Form 1.  I would print the first two pages double sided, and leave items 12 (photograph) and 13 (law enforcement certification) blank.

SAMPLE TRUST FORMS

Sample Trust Form 1.
users.rcn.com/thejackal/sampleforms/trust_form1.pdf


Sample Trust Form 4.
users.rcn.com/thejackal/sampleforms/trust_form4.pdf


Sample Trust Citizen Form, Do it, Don't do it, I don't care.
Must be signed by YOU at the bottom of the 1st page.
users.rcn.com/thejackal/sampleforms/trust_citizen.pdf


Fill out the above forms in duplicate, print both page 1 and page 2 on the front and back of a single sheet of paper.  Send with a copy of the certification of trust and your $200 check.



Completely Blank Forms

users.rcn.com/thejackal/sampleforms/trust_form1_blank.pdf
users.rcn.com/thejackal/sampleforms/trust_form4_blank.pdf
users.rcn.com/thejackal/sampleforms/trust_citizen_blank.pdf

A sample F4 would be awesome.

I'm working on it as soon as my buddy Edwin replys to me.  I sent him one to look over since he got Form4s approved already.  I want him to double check it.

Guys,

What do you put down for a 'taxpayer ID #' in the Trust?  I already had a Trust set up a while back and had a 'Certification of Trust', but there is a blank for the taxpayer ID #.  Do I just put my SSN?  The Trust is in me and my wife's name.

there is a blank for the taxpayer ID #.

What form is asking for a taxpayer ID?

Quoted: there is a blank for the taxpayer ID #. What form is asking for a taxpayer ID?

I believe he is talking about the Certification of Trust.  The Uniform Trust Code, adopted in most states, requires a taxpayer ID # as part of the Certification of Trust.  

wow..31 pages and all the mis-information that is floating around is amazing.

From Small Arms Review found on http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/630601935/m/669101014/p/5

Here is the text of the article (I OCRed it)


Visit SAR on line at: www.smallarmsreview.com


Special Guest Writer Bob J. Howell
Use of the Revocable Trust to Purchase NFA Items
It is my distinct pleasure to introduce to you a special guest contributor this month. The following article was authored by Mr. Bob J. Howell. Mr. Howell is a practicing attorney in Florida experienced in Trust and Estates Law He brings his wealth of knowledge and experience in the area to this piece, which examines the use of the revocable trust as a means of purchasing NFA items. Please enjoy Mr. Howell's unique perspective as he explores an important area of Estates and Firearms Law.

"My CLEO (Chief Law Enforcement Officer) says he won't sign off on any Form 4s, now what do I do?" This is something that many in the NFA community have heard time and time again. Despite the best efforts of many to explain the true meaning of the signoff provision of the Form 4, there are still many CLEOs who do not understand the meaning of the signoff or do not want to understand for personal or political reasons. For many years, the standard reply to this question as been to advise the potential buyer to set up a corporation. While this method of purchasing NFA items has been in widespread use for many years, there is an alternative: the Revocable Trust.

A Revocable Trust is a legal entity established under state law, like a corporation, and as such, a Trust can hold title to real and personal property. Some are familiar with the use of a Revocable Trust for Estate Planning. However, many are unfamiliar with the use of a Revocable Trust to purchase and own NFA items. The NFA in 27 CFR §479.11 specifically defines a Person (i.e. someone who is authorized to purchase NFA items) to include Trusts as well as Corporations. Therefore, absent a state law in your particular jurisdiction prohibiting same, you may purchase and own NFA items through a Revocable Trust.

Aside from being merely an alternative method of purchasing an NFA item, the Revocable Trust provides many benefits over a Corporation or LLC. In states where a Trust is not required to be registered, a Trust will provide a more private method of ownership. In the author's home state of Florida, there is no requirement to register or record a Revocable Trust. Therefore, the existence and terms of the Trust are known only to those whom you choose to tell. This is generally not the case with a Corporation. In a casual conversation with someone at the range who is new to NFA and has questions about it, you might explain the legalities and process for purchase and ownership as well as how you purchased them through your corporation because the local CLEO refuses to sign. A quick search through the state's Division of Corporations website using your name or the name of the Corporation can yield a wealth of information. Through such sources, a stranger can find out information such as what corporations you are an officer of and the registered address of any such corporations. If you use your home address as the registered address of your corporation, the person performing the search now knows where you live and where you may store your NFA items.

Another area where a Trust may be more desirable is cost. With the cost of initial filing fees and annual corporate fees, your cost for the corporation may exceed the cost of setting up a trust either initially or over time. As an example, an individual in Florida wants to purchase a .22 suppressor from a dealer for $300. As his CLEO will not sign the Form 4, he sets up a Corporation to purchase the suppressor. Filing fees to set up the corporation (absent any cost of legal assistance or cost of a corporate book) were $70. The annual corporate filing fee is $150 and is paid every year the corporation is active. Five years later he still has the suppressor, but with annual fees he has paid $820 in initial filing and annual fees and will continue to pay $150 per year for as long as he wants to keep the suppressor. This is a lot of money for a $300 suppressor. Filing fees and annual fees for Corporations or LLCs may be different in your state, but the point is that once the Trust is established there are generally no further fees to maintain it.

In a typical Revocable Trust where you act as your own Trustee, there is no separate Federal tax return to be filed and any profit or loss incurred by the trust is passed through on your individual tax return. With a Corporation or LLC, you may be required to file state or federal tax returns, depending on your jurisdiction and the activities of the corporation. This too can be an added expense that using a Trust may avoid.

A Trust also has the benefit of being able to manage or distribute the Trust assets upon your death or incapacity. If you own NFA items in a Corporation and die, then your interest in that Corporation, and accordingly the assets held by the Corporation, will likely be subject to Probate. For those not familiar with Probate, it is the court authorized procedure where the assets of a deceased person are collected; their debts are paid, and the remaining assets are distributed to their beneficiaries pursuant to the terms of their will or in absence thereof, pursuant to the terms of state law. The duration and cost of this process may vary from state to state, but it is generally not cheap. By placing NFA items into a Trust, you can direct where those items are to go upon your death without fear of the high cost of probate. Revocable Trusts are a common tool used by estate planning attorneys across the country to help their clients avoid probate. The author has prepared many trusts for individuals, as part of their general estate plan, which they have used for the dual purpose of avoiding probate on their estate as a whole as well as to purchase NFA items.

Like a Corporation, there are no fingerprints or photos submitted with a transfer to a Revocable Trust. However, like a corporation, you must submit proof of the existence of the entity (be it a trust or corporation) with your Form 4. While many practitioners will advise the purchaser to simply submit a Certificate of Trust (typically a short one page notarized document confirming the existence of the trust and identifying the Trustee) as proof, the author recommends that you submit a full copy of the trust itself to avoid any questions from ATF as to the legitimacy and existence of the Trust. While some are uneasy about submitting a copy of their Trust with the Form 4, the author has had no issues with this practice. Additionally, as the Form 4 is essentially a tax document, the Form 4 and the documents accompanying it would be deemed private tax information between you and the ATE The last question the author is often presented with when discussing a Revocable Trust for NFA ownership is the subject of a professionally prepared Trust versus a self-prepared document. Depending upon the complexity of the Trust provisions regarding the management and distributions of the NFA items and whether the Trust is also being used for general estate planning purposes, in many areas the cost can run as little as a few hundred dollars. It has been the author's experience that many of the forms and computer programs available for drafting trusts and other legal documents provide just enough information to be dangerous. Like a wise man has said, you get what you pay for. While doing it yourself may save a few bucks, doing it wrong can cost you quite a bit more in legal fees or even your freedom. The author generally provides a prospective client with two pieces of free advice when asked about do-it-yourself documents. One is that you do not have to use the author, but do yourself a favor and use an attorney with experience in Trust preparation. The other is that if the cost of correctly preparing the documentation scares you, perhaps NFA is not the hobby for you.

Use of the Revocable Trust of NFA purchases is not new but rather is something that many were, until recently, unaware of. The Author has seen an increasing number of questions about its use on various websites along with an increasing number of well intentioned but misleading or incorrect answers. This article is intended to address many of those questions and provide an overview of the general traits and benefits of using a Revocable Trust for NFA ownership. Before proceeding however, you should always seek competent legal advice in your jurisdiction to determine if it is right for you.

Mark Barnes is an attorney with over 20 years experience. He began his career in public policy serving in both the legislative and executive branches of federal government. His firm, Mark Barnes and Associates, is located in Washington, D. C. and has been specializing in all aspects of federal firearms law since 1993. He can be contacted at MarkB17@aol. com. l. 10 No. 6• March 2007

Quoted: <SNIP>

Yipper, that about sums it up. But its funny when I said basically the same thing, I got called all kinda names (hence the reason I yanked my write on how to get NFA items thru a trust). I had ppl say it was gray area, that it was a loop hole, some where saying you need bank accounts, etc etc etc. oh well. Nice find devildogvet.

Quoted: What do you need to sign or fill out that says "you the trustee have put this item into your trust"? Form 1: 1) Update Schedule A, B or C as appropriate. 2) Sign an Assignment of Property document. Form 4: 1) Update Schedule A, B or C as appropriate. 2) Get a bill of sale made out to Joe Schmoe, trustee of the Joe Schmoe Revocable Living Trust, dated xxx xx, 200x.

Why is it any different for a Form 1 or Form 4?  I take it a form 1 is used for SBR's.  Is a form 1 also used for suppressors?

Why is it any different for a Form 1 or Form 4?

A Form 1 is used to make (commonly from a Title I weapon) and register a Title II weapon, a Form 4 is used to transfer an already-registered Title II weapon, so the situations are a bit different.

Quoted: Quoted: What do you need to sign or fill out that says "you the trustee have put this item into your trust"? Form 1: 1) Update Schedule A, B or C as appropriate. 2) Sign an Assignment of Property document. Form 4: 1) Update Schedule A, B or C as appropriate. 2) Get a bill of sale made out to Joe Schmoe, trustee of the Joe Schmoe Revocable Living Trust, dated xxx xx, 200x. Why is it any different for a Form 1 or Form 4?  I take it a form 1 is used for SBR's.  Is a form 1 also used for suppressors?

Well, it depends and someone with more info will know more than I. You use a FORM 4 to transfer any item into your possession i.e. Suppressor, Machine gun, SBR. I believe a Form 1 is for MAKING said items. So if you already own the rifle and your making it a SBR, then you use form 1. If you are making your own suppressor you may end up using a Form 1 not a Form 4. If you are just buying a Suppressor from a C3 deal , than its a FORM 4.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: What do you need to sign or fill out that says "you the trustee have put this item into your trust"? Form 1: 1) Update Schedule A, B or C as appropriate. 2) Sign an Assignment of Property document. Form 4: 1) Update Schedule A, B or C as appropriate. 2) Get a bill of sale made out to Joe Schmoe, trustee of the Joe Schmoe Revocable Living Trust, dated xxx xx, 200x. Why is it any different for a Form 1 or Form 4?  I take it a form 1 is used for SBR's.  Is a form 1 also used for suppressors? Well, it depends and someone with more info will know more than I. You use a FORM 4 to transfer any item into your possession i.e. Suppressor, Machine gun, SBR. I believe a Form 1 is for MAKING said items. So if you already own the rifle and your making it a SBR, then you use form 1. If you are making your own suppressor you may end up using a Form 1 not a Form 4. If you are just buying a Suppressor from a C3 deal , than its a FORM 4.

That does help some of my questions but I really wanted was to know why is it any different with how you add it to the trust for a form 1 or form 4 item.

why is it any different with how you add it to the trust for a form 1 or form 4 item.

With a Form 1, the gun is coming from the grantor.  With a Form 4, the gun is coming from someone else.  

I sucked in SWATH's images and turned them into MS Word documents.  The only thing that I am not sure about is on page 4 and 5 of the Declaration.  I cannot make out what is either Part 11, Section B, #2, or Part 11, Section C.  If it is supposed to be Section B, #2 then Section A needs it as well and Section C is missing.  If it is supposed to be Section C then it needs to be indented one less time.

Declaration of Trust

Schedule A

Certification of Trust

This might have been asked before, sorry. I don't plan on kicking the bucket anytime soon but, what happens to the NFA items in my Trust when I die? I know they go to the my beneficary, but how do they transfer to them? I would guess  they would be a transfer from the trust to them and they on a form 4?

tag

Quoted: This might have been asked before, sorry. I don't plan on kicking the bucket anytime soon but, what happens to the NFA items in my Trust when I die? I know they go to the my beneficary, but how do they transfer to them? I would guess  they would be a transfer from the trust to them and they on a form 4?

There is a separate form for inheritance, it's NFA-tax free...

Which is better if I might be moving to a new state.

Would I need to start a corp in the new state?  Would the trust still be good?

I saw someone else ask this back on p25 but no answer. Im planning to set up a trust for NFA purposes; however, I expect to be moving out of state within the next few years.

*If I move to another state does the trust continue to exist as it always has?

*If it continues, is it locked or can I continue adding to it in my new home state?

*If the trust has to change because of my change of state of residence, can the existing trust be modified or will a new trust have to be created and the assets Form-4'd to the new trust?


If I move a lot, might I be better off with a LLC than a trust?

I sent in my first form 1's using a revocable living trust that I created using Quicken Willmaker that I downloaded.  I made the trust at the end of January.  I sent in four form 1's for SBR's on Feb 1 and just received my approved forms with the $200 stamps attached in my mailbox today Mar 5th.  NO CITIZENSHIP FORM IN NECESSARY when using a trust.  I did not send one in.  I also enclosed the Certification of Trust only.  There is NO NEED to send in your Declaration of Trust.  

Oh man I just read all 31 pages.  Alot is wasted space.


My questions.

Can you have a trust with just one person?  How would I modify the trusts
that were posted if I can have one person?  If I have to have a second person they have to be a 'clear record' right?  Legally allowed to have NFA items.

If I read this correctly I copy the entire trust document three times right?  Do all copies have to be notorized?  Or do I get the original print notorized then copy that?  

Send the C3 dealer a copy of trust.
He gets the serial no and model and adds it to the Form 4.  Sends it back to me.
I fill out whatever signatures etc on the Form 4.
I send to the ATF a copy of the trust (notorized?) the form 4 and 200$ check.
Then I get cleared and can pick up my can.

I would like to thank everyone a million times over for this entire thread!!!  You guys get cookies!!!

No ideas?

Thanks man!

If it is written for one person how do you word the first part?  Or do I have to have a second person.  IE...

Part 2. Declaration of Trust
<HUSBAND> and <WIFE>, called the grantors, declare that they have transferred and delivered to the trustees all their interest in the property described in Schedule A attached to this Declaration of Trust.  All of that property is called the "trust property”

Who is the Wife?  I dont have one, or anyone else really that I want to have access to.

Philly,

Just get willmaker. Much easier.

I tried to purchase that, and got three charges from some www.nolo.com place.  Fourty bucks each.  Probably should have bought it from ebay.

I also have quicken, full 2007 version but couldnt figure out anything in that.  

Ok, I went and bought willmaker.  Printed it to a txt file, and when I printed I had it notorized.  Didnt notice that the Schedule A and item 1.NFA Items was on the same page as the notorization page.  Is that a problem or should I reformat and print again?

Quoted: Ok, I went and bought willmaker.  Printed it to a txt file, and when I printed I had it notorized.  Didnt notice that the Schedule A and item 1.NFA Items was on the same page as the notorization page.  Is that a problem or should I reformat and print again?

oops, didnt read your question well enough.  I'd print again.

Which is easier if I plan on moving to another state?

It looks ok, but I think schedule A is supposed to be on a separate page?

Printed it to a txt file

Why?

should I reformat and print again?

I would print directly from the program.

You export it to Word to change the name of the trust from your full name to whatever you want.  That is what I did.

In willmaker software it always states to look at the trust document and if you export it, or modify it, then you need to make sure it has the page seperations exactly like the origional document inside willmaker.

Well I dont have a printer.  I dont have the page seperations exactly like willmaker.  Dang.  Gotta print it again and get it notorized.  Good thing I didnt pay for that!

Alright...I built an ar15 pistol that I would like to make an SBR by the mere addition of a shoulder stock. Is that possible, or do I need to build/buy a whole new sbr?

Went with the willmaker trust, using modifications similar to those in the trust scanned in much earlier in this thread. I had an attorney (oregon) look at it today, and she said while she dosent know about NFA/federal firearms laws, the trust itself was legit. If everything is legal with the feds regarding the firearms, then the trust works.

That being said, she also told me that it was a pretty crappy trust, it was missing some stuff usually found in trusts (money management stuff was one), and I should not put any money or other assets into it. Just firearms = ok, everything else (especially money) = bad.

ANyways, that was my experience. Now I just need to get it notorized and then Im off to buy some goodies.

Quoted: I sent in my first form 1's using a revocable living trust that I created using Quicken Willmaker that I downloaded.  I made the trust at the end of January.  I sent in four form 1's for SBR's on Feb 1 and just received my approved forms with the $200 stamps attached in my mailbox today Mar 5th.  NO CITIZENSHIP FORM IN NECESSARY when using a trust.  I did not send one in.  I also enclosed the Certification of Trust only.  There is NO NEED to send in your Declaration of Trust.

 I'm filling out my Form 1 now and this is good to know.  The Certification of Trust is already in the envelope.  Hopefully everything goes well.

So say "John W. Doe Revocable Living Trust" is the name of your entity on the form 1 in the 3b box.  Under 4h where you put down your serial number may I just enter "JWD RLT City, State"?  Has anyone done this and is it acceptable?

Also am I correct in that I do NOT have to attach a 533020?

Thanks!

Look at the samples on page 31.  If it is left blank, then leave it blank.

Don't know about the citizenship form.  Don't send one in and let us know if they still approve it.  Hell, I sent 2 copys in, it took me a hole 30 seconds to print them and sign it. If they don't need them, them the BATFE throw them out.

Thanks I read over 20 pages of this to be honest, but didn't go any further.  

Now for the engraving...

Would this be acceptable to have engraved on your lower:

JWD RLT
City, State

Instead of the actual name of your trust:

John W. Doe Revocable Living Trust
City, State

Thanks again I really appreciate the efforts of everyone in this thread.

What happens if you go the Trust route in say... FL... Then a few years later move to a different class-III state?

Quoted: From the Willmaker 2006 documentation: Your living trust is still valid if you prepare it in one state and then move to another. You may, however, need to take some actions after your move: Your new state may require you to register your living trust document with the local court. (See Chapter 18.) You may want to amend the trust document if the new state's laws differ on matters such as marital property rights or property management for young trust beneficiaries.

I just checked it out on willmaker 2007, and the trust is still valid but may have to be amended

Quoted: Thanks I read over 20 pages of this to be honest, but didn't go any further.   Now for the engraving... Would this be acceptable to have engraved on your lower: JWD RLT City, State Instead of the actual name of your trust: John W. Doe Revocable Living Trust City, State Thanks again I really appreciate the efforts of everyone in this thread.

I am under the impression that you have to write out any word(name) that isn't a KNOWN abbreviation like FL for Florida.  To be on the safe side, have your trust reviewed by a lawyer...it should only be about 100-150 dollars.  I live in miami, fl  and a trust lawyer said he would look it over for 150.  I am in the process of willmaker 2007 trust to get a suppressor.  

tag

thanks for all the guys that gave this thread thier time and advice. and shame on all the guys that keep asking the same questions. take the time and READ, if you dont have time, WAIT and READ later. this is the reason its 32 pages long.

Quoted: thanks for all the guys that gave this thread thier time and advice. and shame on all the guys that keep asking the same questions. take the time and READ, if you dont have time, WAIT and READ later. this is the reason its 32 pages long.

I did as well as some of the people asking questions.  There are actually many contradictions in this thread as well as rampant speculation which is why I was trying to clear some things up.  However I do greatly appreciate the effort everyone has put into this thread.