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Posted: 7/3/2017 9:52:51 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Pretty sure this was a troll thread to begin with I posted the list of reasons why, for me, I've determined to stick only with the AR rifle. They are talking points for discussion. There is no need to accuse me of "trolling" on this topic. I did not post this in GD, but rather in AR Discussion hopeful for, well, you know, discussion. I've always found it a helpful to articulate as specifically as possible why I've made a decision in order to evaluate, for myself, the pros/cons and points that have led me to the decision. I've appreciated a number of the comments so far and welcome more. If this was merely a "troll" thread I would have simply posted a stupid picture and said something like "ARs rule, AKs drool." 
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Posted: 7/3/2017 10:03:23 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Every firearms enthusiast should own at least one AK. While I went form 5 to 1, I'll always have one. Mostly because it's badass.  Attached FileAfter building a plethora of AR's over the years I'm down to three SBR's, of which 2 are 5.56 and the other a Grendel. Variety is the spice of life, therefore I jumped into the scar world. |
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Posted: 7/3/2017 10:05:51 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I can get WOLF Gold for around 27 cents a round, shipped. Russian AK steel case is around 20 cents a round. So...guess it's what you want to spend. I don't think it is THAT MUCH more expensive to shoot an AR than an AK. |
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Posted: 7/3/2017 10:08:42 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My problem with steel case in my ARs is that they really choke up my BCG after 150 rounds or so in a training class where we are shooting a lot of ammo in rapid strings, etc. I have to field strip and relube just to get it to cycle, otherwise my AR turns into a bolt action rifle. That's been my experience with the steel case in my ARs, at any rate. But I agree that if you feel it is worth it to you to shoot steel case stuff, a new barrel for an AR is no biggie. I just prefer brass cased stuff in my ARs. I've run 500+ rounds a day out of a suppressed 11.5" and had zero issues with minimal lube. Hell I shot 240 rounds in a hour yesterday in our carbine/course pit 100% wolf MC steel case with nay an issue. |
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Posted: 7/3/2017 10:47:07 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Link to another test added. I'm sure you will call that stupid too. Fast n light is good on soft shit but unpredictable once it passes through something Plenty of 5.56 rounds punch through auto glass and perform fine on soft targets behind it. |
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Posted: 7/3/2017 10:50:07 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You have a shitty build then. I've run 500+ rounds a day out of a suppressed 11.5" and had zero issues with minimal lube. Hell I shot 240 rounds in a hour yesterday in our carbine/course pit 100% wolf MC steel case with nay an issue. |
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Posted: 7/3/2017 11:51:59 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Some of the replies and lofty expectations of these rounds crack me up. 5.56, 5.45, and 7.62 X 39 are all varmint rounds. They are military rounds because they do things just well enough. Wounding is a practice that is sought out for some reason. Many of the larger countries have a certain ethic and take care of fallen combatants, too bad most of the people in the third world don't always hold the same standards. Anyway, as much as I love my AK, and the inexpensive ammo, (even more so after SGammo brought the 8M3 back to us), it is still a second to the AR for me. I wouldn't hesitate to grab the AK, and don't agree with many of the OP's shortcomings, but still prefer the AR. I'm sure a lot do for the same reasons that I do. I enjoy all of the shortcomings of the AK-AR that are really all just BS in the grand picture. Both wouldn't have lasted as long or been copied as much as they have if either were "bad". YMMV 
If people are getting 7.62 x 39 for .20 cents a round, I guess that's pretty darned good. But I do think you can get tula for about that in .223. I think if I had to choose between those two particular rounds for serious work I'd be wanting the 7.62. Meaning if all you ever stocked for either gun was super cheap steel ammo. But decent 5.56 ammo is typically way more expensive than .20 cents. And even more than .27. Maybe not a lot more. Maybe if you buy wolf Gold in bulk somewhere?????? |
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Posted: 7/3/2017 11:57:35 AM EDT
[#8]
I'd take that type 2 pictured in the OP, select fire and collectible
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Posted: 7/3/2017 12:03:26 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You can get wolf SC for the same price and shoot a lot too. But, since I can and do get Wolf Gold, which is brass cased made in Taiwan, for me, I do not regard the financial savings to be of that much significance to make me want to use steel case ammo. Now, I will say this is an advantage of the AR...you can basically put powder and rocks in it and it will work. :) |
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Posted: 7/3/2017 12:04:50 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You have a shitty build then. I've run 500+ rounds a day out of a suppressed 11.5" and had zero issues with minimal lube. Hell I shot 240 rounds in a hour yesterday in our carbine/course pit 100% wolf MC steel case with nay an issue. |
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Posted: 7/3/2017 12:06:13 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
7.62 x 39 is a varmint round? That's news to me. |
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Posted: 7/3/2017 12:06:16 PM EDT
[#12]
I've shot cheapo steel case in AR's for many years without reliability issues. The only issue is the bimetal rounds are extra tough on melonited barrels when the barrels are hot.
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Posted: 7/3/2017 12:07:15 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I doubt that, brother. I'm running a BCM 11.5" suppressed and it works like a charm with brass case/full power stuff, but the Russian steel case I find to be underpowered and dirty, for the reasons stipulated. That's been my experience, so, like I said, I'm not in a position to have to worry or think twice about paying 5-7 cents more per round. Glad it is working out for you though. My BCM rifles eat up Steel cased ammunition. |
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Posted: 7/3/2017 12:11:27 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I can assembal an AR kit without a Hydraulic press. that seals the deal for me  |
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Posted: 7/3/2017 12:27:46 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I doubt that, brother. I'm running a BCM 11.5" suppressed and it works like a charm with brass case/full power stuff, but the Russian steel case I find to be underpowered and dirty, for the reasons stipulated. That's been my experience, so, like I said, I'm not in a position to have to worry or think twice about paying 5-7 cents more per round. Glad it is working out for you though. No issues with DD, Colt, or BA barrels. BCM has tight gas ports, this is well known. |
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Posted: 7/3/2017 12:40:00 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote History |
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Posted: 7/3/2017 12:49:54 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I doubt that, brother. I'm running a BCM 11.5" suppressed and it works like a charm with brass case/full power stuff, but the Russian steel case I find to be underpowered and dirty, for the reasons stipulated. That's been my experience, so, like I said, I'm not in a position to have to worry or think twice about paying 5-7 cents more per round. Glad it is working out for you though. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You have a shitty build then. I've run 500+ rounds a day out of a suppressed 11.5" and had zero issues with minimal lube. Hell I shot 240 rounds in a hour yesterday in our carbine/course pit 100% wolf MC steel case with nay an issue. |
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Posted: 7/3/2017 12:52:11 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've shot cheapo steel case in AR's for many years without reliability issues. The only issue is the bimetal rounds are extra tough on melonited barrels when the barrels are hot. |
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Posted: 7/3/2017 1:08:07 PM EDT
[#19]
Melonited barrels are cheap enough that everyone should have 1-2 spares.
It's a wear part - plan accordingly |
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Posted: 7/3/2017 1:55:03 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
More tough than on CL or stainless? |
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Posted: 7/3/2017 4:16:57 PM EDT
[#21]
On my AR's I've had the following:
TWO gas keys come un staked on BCG (name brand arfcom favs both of them, banner is on this screen) and cause short stroking Trigger pin break Blown primer in nice brass cased ammo lock a gun up solid rubber/plastic on end of buffer disintegrate On my AK's, I've had the following: ... That being said, my go-to is still a suppressed AR SBR. I can kill a watermellon from 0-300 yards day or night quite reliably. I just give it a more through cleaning, check my gas keys regularly, and keep a back up around. |
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Posted: 7/3/2017 4:57:46 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Cool link. 556 can penetrate a vehicle, to argue otherwise is ignorant. 762 does have better penetration but there is a difference between statistically significant and clinically significant, if that makes sense. Both are great rifles but you need to really know what you are buying when you buy an AK isn the US. AK legend isn't always AK reality, especially around here. Ergos is the main factor for me as I honestly believe that accuracy, reliability, and efficacy are pretty similar for both rifles. But again, a lot of respect for both. Pretty sure this was a troll thread to begin with http://i.imgur.com/69b62sV.jpg 5.56 vs lvl3 with lvl3a backing. https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLxe9bCDVt1x48dwyXYIViFtzwgx4W-uMC&v=vsZ53ber3YE 7.62x51 vs lvl3 https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLxe9bCDVt1x48dwyXYIViFtzwgx4W-uMC&v=NPUJvxfeOfU 7.62x39 vs lvl3 https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLxe9bCDVt1x48dwyXYIViFtzwgx4W-uMC&v=rvO0uzz-MQ0 |
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Posted: 7/3/2017 6:46:32 PM EDT
[#23]
It's interesting that you posted what you did. I was out training on Saturday and our precision rifle instructor was talking to me about how bullets chew up their AR500 steel plates and he was particularly concerned about the 5.56 rounds and how they go through so many new plates. I expressed surprise and he edumacated me on the subject. He even said, "Hell, you could shoot these things with 338 Lapua and it would knock them over, but the 5.56 with steel penetrators will slice through them and pit them like nobody's business. I had an "aha!" moment.
When I've run training classes with the AK I've seen many times the "knock down" force of the 7.62 x 39 on our steel targets, but the 5.56 is a real bitch on wheels when it comes to damaging the steel, ditto the guys in the AK classes running 5.45 platforms. |
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Posted: 7/3/2017 6:49:00 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
7.62x39 doesn't have better penetration. 7.62 x39 have better energy. 5.56 will out penetrate 7.62 x39 all day long. 5.56 even out penetrate 7.62x51 against steel. 5.56 vs lvl3 with lvl3a backing. https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLxe9bCDVt1x48dwyXYIViFtzwgx4W-uMC&v=vsZ53ber3YE 7.62x51 vs lvl3 https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLxe9bCDVt1x48dwyXYIViFtzwgx4W-uMC&v=NPUJvxfeOfU 7.62x39 vs lvl3 https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLxe9bCDVt1x48dwyXYIViFtzwgx4W-uMC&v=rvO0uzz-MQ0 https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLxe9bCDVt1x48dwyXYIViFtzwgx4W-uMCv=NPUJvxfeOfU https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLxe9bCDVt1x48dwyXYIViFtzwgx4W-uMC&v=vsZ53ber3YE https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLxe9bCDVt1x48dwyXYIViFtzwgx4W-uMC&v=NPUJvxfeOfU https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLxe9bCDVt1x48dwyXYIViFtzwgx4W-uMC&v=rvO0uzz-MQ0 |
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Posted: 7/3/2017 8:28:56 PM EDT
[#25]
The AK is fun. I'll give you that.
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Posted: 7/3/2017 9:26:51 PM EDT
[#26]
I could make up a list of similar bullet points in favor of the AK of course:
-Stock can fold -More durable magazines -More controllable in the 5.45 caliber with its muzzle brake -etc. Realistically I'd prefer some ARs over some ARs and vice versa due to quality differences. |
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Posted: 7/3/2017 9:56:16 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's interesting that you posted what you did. I was out training on Saturday and our precision rifle instructor was talking to me about how bullets chew up their AR500 steel plates and he was particularly concerned about the 5.56 rounds and how they go through so many new plates. I expressed surprise and he edumacated me on the subject. He even said, "Hell, you could shoot these things with 338 Lapua and it would knock them over, but the 5.56 with steel penetrators will slice through them and pit them like nobody's business. I had an "aha!" moment. When I've run training classes with the AK I've seen many times the "knock down" force of the 7.62 x 39 on our steel targets, but the 5.56 is a real bitch on wheels when it comes to damaging the steel, ditto the guys in the AK classes running 5.45 platforms. What happens then? |
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Posted: 7/3/2017 10:42:30 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I could make up a list of similar bullet points in favor of the AK of course: -Stock can fold -More durable magazines -More controllable in the 5.45 caliber with its muzzle brake -etc. Realistically I'd prefer some ARs over some ARs and vice versa due to quality differences. |
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Posted: 7/3/2017 10:50:21 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You ever shot an AR with a good quality muzzle break. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I could make up a list of similar bullet points in favor of the AK of course: -Stock can fold -More durable magazines -More controllable in the 5.45 caliber with its muzzle brake -etc. Realistically I'd prefer some ARs over some ARs and vice versa due to quality differences. What is different is that a 74 has some weight behind it. That + brake makes It a pussy cat. Both are very controllable. |
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Posted: 7/4/2017 6:17:34 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Your AR magazine is in upside down. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Your AR magazine is in upside down. 
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Posted: 7/4/2017 8:10:00 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I love my AR. That being said, I went to the Beach on Coronation Island with my dad one summer when I was fishing for salmon in Alaska during the summer of 2005, a real job. Googleearth Coronation Island, it sticks way out into the big blue Pacific. Anyways...I was really glad that we brought the Kalashnikov Rifle to the beach. Creepy place, to say the least. I thought the Kushtaka was gonna jump out of the brush, its that wierd of a place. Words cannot describe...... I shot at Korean and Russian flotsam that washed up on the beach. The AK-47 scared away the evil spirits that inhabit the headlands. It's a good rifle, although ugly. |
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Posted: 7/4/2017 8:29:43 AM EDT
[#32]
I shot a steel plate at 100 yards with these three rounds. Wolf 7.62x39 , 5.56 Winchester Q3131A and 7.62 x 51 Military surplus Portuguese The 5.56 Winchester penetrated deepest with 7.62x51 second . I'm sure materials the round is made of is a factor but speed is also .Wardawg
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Posted: 7/4/2017 8:54:48 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
7.62x39 doesn't have better penetration. 7.62 x39 have better energy. 5.56 will out penetrate 7.62 x39 all day long. 5.56 even out penetrate 7.62x51 against steel. 5.56 vs lvl3 with lvl3a backing. https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLxe9bCDVt1x48dwyXYIViFtzwgx4W-uMC&v=vsZ53ber3YE 7.62x51 vs lvl3 https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLxe9bCDVt1x48dwyXYIViFtzwgx4W-uMC&v=NPUJvxfeOfU 7.62x39 vs lvl3 https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLxe9bCDVt1x48dwyXYIViFtzwgx4W-uMC&v=rvO0uzz-MQ0 Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Cool link. 556 can penetrate a vehicle, to argue otherwise is ignorant. 762 does have better penetration but there is a difference between statistically significant and clinically significant, if that makes sense. Both are great rifles but you need to really know what you are buying when you buy an AK isn the US. AK legend isn't always AK reality, especially around here. Ergos is the main factor for me as I honestly believe that accuracy, reliability, and efficacy are pretty similar for both rifles. But again, a lot of respect for both. Pretty sure this was a troll thread to begin with http://i.imgur.com/69b62sV.jpg 5.56 vs lvl3 with lvl3a backing. https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLxe9bCDVt1x48dwyXYIViFtzwgx4W-uMC&v=vsZ53ber3YE 7.62x51 vs lvl3 https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLxe9bCDVt1x48dwyXYIViFtzwgx4W-uMC&v=NPUJvxfeOfU 7.62x39 vs lvl3 https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLxe9bCDVt1x48dwyXYIViFtzwgx4W-uMC&v=rvO0uzz-MQ0 |
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Posted: 7/4/2017 9:47:52 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Your AR magazine is in upside down. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Your AR magazine is in upside down. |
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Posted: 7/4/2017 12:51:12 PM EDT
[#35]
Just cuz some 5.56 rounds zip through AR500 steel better than some bigger rounds doesn't make it a better performer through autos. It just means someone or something behind AR500 steel might not be completely safe. Last time I checked, cars aren't made out of that.
I think that guy the chopping block did a test between 5.56 and .308 through cinder block and he claimed 5.56 is "just as good". I think was the consensus. For me, the bigger heavier rounds will probably carry more energy when going through things. And do more damage. But whatever.... I like light recoiling rounds. So if I ever went AK, I always wanted a 5.45. I got to shoot a krink one time in 5.45 and I was in love. |
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Posted: 7/4/2017 5:45:35 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I like both.. |
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Posted: 7/4/2017 8:08:10 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I shot a steel plate at 100 yards with these three rounds. Wolf 7.62x39 , 5.56 Winchester Q3131A and 7.62 x 51 Military surplus Portuguese The 5.56 Winchester penetrated deepest with 7.62x51 second . I'm sure materials the round is made of is a factor but speed is also .Wardawg |
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Posted: 7/5/2017 12:01:00 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm gonna go with this. Obviously a suppressed AR SBR is about as good as it gets, and nobody is arguing with that, but not everything has to be uber-practical. It's actually, shockingly ok to have a fun gun or two.  |
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Posted: 7/5/2017 12:12:16 AM EDT
[#39]
I started my "black rifle" life with AK's. Went through about 5 of them (some had serious issues, some didn't). Then I moved to piston operated AR's. Was not impressed with them.
Next I, reluctantly, decided to try a regular DI AR. I've since sold off all but 1 AK (kept one just for "novelty" sake), and am about 11 AR's (DI's, sold all the piston versions) deep now and growing (both 5.56 and 308 variants). F the AK. Once you've handled/built some quality AR's, it makes the AK seem like what it is... a cheap stamped steel, riveted together, crude POS. I'd actually rather do a x39 AR to replace the remaining AK, but don't because I do want to hang on to the "one" to show people the differences. An AR's machine work is almost artwork, it's that's good. And once you get past the BS about DI's not being reliable... there really is no comparison. These days, you pay more for an AK that's crude as sh*t, when you can buy a (just as reliable) AR that's machined BEAUTIFULLY for MUCH less. It's a no brainer. So, OP, I hear you and went through the same process. And now that all the "variants" of AR's are starting to work out (much more caliber diversity)... the AK is just.. eh... crude junk. |
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Posted: 7/5/2017 12:24:11 AM EDT
[#40]
I was never an AK guy, but with all of the trigger and furniture options we now have available, they've become a favorite of mine. My house is still protected by an AR.
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Posted: 7/5/2017 7:59:08 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Dumb remark...beside the point...nobody is suggesting only to have one gun. Another idiot weighs in and contributes a worthless comment. It's okay for people to have varying opinions that don't correlate with yours. Or...maybe you haven't learned that yet. |
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Posted: 7/5/2017 11:33:26 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryHave we already covered the fact that his 'nanner clip is in upside down?
ETA nvm too late already called out. 
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Posted: 7/5/2017 11:43:53 AM EDT
[#43]
This thread needs more trashcan...
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Posted: 7/5/2017 5:52:43 PM EDT
[#44]
Good points OP. I'm in the same boat.
- To your list I would add that pretty much any major part of the AR can be replaced within 10-15 minutes with tools that can be found in any handy-man's garage. - There is a plethora of .223 and 5.56 ammunition choices from countless different brands and variants while the 5.56 is still evolving. The M855A1 penetrated the AR500 lvl 3+ body armor. 7.62x39 and not even black tip 7.62 NATO has accomplished this. -The price differential of 7.62x39 and 5.56/.223 is almost non-existent with both rounds as low as .19-.20cent. -The price differential between quality AK and AR variants is disappearing. I've been waiting 8months for an Arsenal to come back in stock meanwhile Savage, Aero, Smith & Wesson and others have AR '10s' for similar prices, some lower. So now I'm at the point of "why bother" and debating on rather to go AR10 or PTR 91 A3S. Sure I'd like to have another AK as a collector/enthusiast, but right now my money is going towards practicality. |
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Posted: 7/5/2017 9:07:38 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good points OP. I'm in the same boat. - To your list I would add that pretty much any major part of the AR can be replaced within 10-15 minutes with tools that can be found in any handy-man's garage. - There is a plethora of .223 and 5.56 ammunition choices from countless different brands and variants while the 5.56 is still evolving. The M855A1 penetrated the AR500 lvl 3+ body armor. 7.62x39 and not even black tip 7.62 NATO has accomplished this. -The price differential of 7.62x39 and 5.56/.223 is almost non-existent with both rounds as low as .19-.20cent. -The price differential between quality AK and AR variants is disappearing. I've been waiting 8months for an Arsenal to come back in stock meanwhile Savage, Aero, Smith & Wesson and others have AR '10s' for similar prices, some lower. So now I'm at the point of "why bother" and debating on rather to go AR10 or PTR 91 A3S. Sure I'd like to have another AK as a collector/enthusiast, but right now my money is going towards practicality. |
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Posted: 7/5/2017 10:29:28 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Depends on what the quarry is. I'd rather shoot at a bear with the 7.62 than a 5.56 any day (not that I will ever HAVE to...but you get my point). That said, I think all of your other points are valid. I've never cared for the AK/SKS platform rifles. I'll take my AR Lego set every time! |
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Posted: 7/6/2017 9:49:55 AM EDT
[#47]
I've just moved into the AR platform after many years as an AK guy. I actually traded an AK for my first AR.
So far I really like the AR, but I'll be keeping the rest of my AK rifles. As many guys have said, why not have both? |
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Posted: 7/6/2017 10:00:59 AM EDT
[#48]
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Posted: 7/6/2017 12:24:31 PM EDT
[#49]
Sold my last round of 7.62 and my AK rifles and a good number of my AK mags.
Down to my last 15 AK 30 round mags and five 20 round tanker mags, then...that's it. May have some more AK bits and pieces here and there, will be working my way through my gun cabinets and storage areas. But... Adios AK indeed. |
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Posted: 7/7/2017 8:02:22 PM EDT
[#50]
So, given this is ARFCOM not AKCOM, I'd like to hear from more folks on this. Soaking up the collective wisdom, etc.
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