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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - My Bargin Bin and the The Exploding Pmag **New update pg 1..Remington steps up** (Page 3 of 3)
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| my brother had a Rem 168gr mhp go kaboom in his norinco m-14s. This rifle had a properly headspaced U.S. G.I. bolt in it and had fired approx 40 rds of aussie .308 surplus and 12 rds out of the box of Rem. match when this round blew.It obviously blew before it was even chambered judging by the particles of brass we found (& picked out of his face!) The bolt was reassembled and headspace checked out,was fired for approx 50 more rounds with no problem. Rem was contacted and sent what debris we could scrape up and the rest of the box of ammo. (possible high primer? cause of kaboom) and Rem basically told my brother it was not the ammos fault and would only reimburse him for the box of ammo.We will never use Rem. ammo again. |
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Spent some time loading the 1400 UMC I recently purchased on strippers. In doing that. I took the time to visualy inspect every round. Two things abnormal were noted. 1) Not all the primers were the same color. As most know, it is typical for most factory ammo to come with a bronze/brass color primer, vs. the shiny stainless look of a component primer you might buy for reloading. I have noticed this before when policing my brass. At the time, I thought maybe I'd picked up someones reloads, as the area I was shooting at is quite popular and empty brass was already there. I can now verify that there are two distictly different colors to the primers of new factory loaded Rem. UMC ammo. The two different colored primers were random with both appearing in the same box/boxes. Lot number varied as well. Sometimes I'd go through 5 boxes where they all looked the same. Then it would start again. As I said, random.  2) Out of the 1400 rounds, I found two rounds that had poorly installed primers. In both cases, there is a visable offset swage type mark on the primer and primer hole, with one being smashed bad enough there is case brass that was pushed into and on top of the primer after it was seated. Imagine driving a brass shim to keep a loose fitting primer from falling out and youl get the picture. I really need to get off my ass and post some pics. Are two rounds in 1400 acceptable? Shit no. I realize it does happen, but it should not. Ammo is not the same as shoe laces. There is a very real possibility that injury or death could occur with the use of bad ammo. I'm glad to see that most of the posts on KB's have resulted in either no injuries or minor injuries. The same cant be said about the weapons that have been destroyed. An obsevation... It seems that there has been a marked increase in the number of fubared ammo recently. That would lead me to speculate if there has been a notable decrease in the quality control at the UMC plant. Company's have been known to cut costs wherever they think they can get away with it. I dont work for Rem. so I cant say if this is the case there. The UMC is supposed to be made in the USA ( Ark. or Alabama? ) Threw out the damn boxes and their website just states "Made in the USA". With the ever increasing demand for ammo ( .223 being high on the list ), it would not surprise me to learn that some steps are being missed or deleted from the manufacturing process. It's all dollars and cents. I have had good experiences with Remingtom products and ammo in the past. I'm hoping that continues. With somewhere in the neighborhood of 2500 rounds of UMC in the safe, I'm a little concerned now. I have previously posted that I wasnt worried. However, the high number of complaints and KB's being posted here will have me concerned at least until all rounds have been expended. Would I rather have steel cased Wolf in trade? No. I reload and will use the cases for that. Will I buy Wolf for plinking? Depends upon the price. With Wolf steel cased going in the neighborhood of $265.00 per k, while Rem. brass cased UMC can be had for under $300.00 per k ( last week at Bass Pro ), I wont be buying any Wolf soon. I WILL however be shooting this UMC at an aimed and controled rate. I do not bump fire or just blast like a hillbilly. My $$$ and safety are worth too much to me. If I were ever to go the FA NFA route, you can bet your ass I'd be buying another brand. Slightly concerned in AZ...  ETA: I did not run into any of the loose bullet syndrom that has been questioned in the bullet set-back concerns. I did not pull and push on each bullet, but there were none in the 1400 rounds that were pushed back or obviously loose straight from the box. If handling or recoil causes that, I'll be sure to post results. |
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My HK MP-5 9mm sub gun wouldn't "run" on Remington UMC 115 gr FMJ. I was going through my annual qualification and the damned UMC didn't have enough power to function the action. We switched to Winchester USA white box and the functioning went to 100% (ZERO MALFUNCTIONS) PursuitSS |
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KB damanged PMAG I wonder if an USGI mag would have somehow protected the shooter more or less ? |
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I wonder if it is just us. After all, it is .223 ammo, maybe it was never intended for shooting out of the AR15. If it was made for bolt action rifles, maybe we are all using it incorrectly as it was designed. Kinda like using Skin-so-soft as skeeter repellent. Something to think about. Just a thought out of the box. Mike Va Beach |
This is NOT TRUE for most factory 55 grain FMJ ammo in .223/5.56... The case is mostly full, but nowhere near a compressed load. Just about every manufacturer of 5.56 ball ammo is going to be using a spherical/ball powder of some sort, and they will not be compressed loads. If you pull the bullets in various 55gr ball loads, you'll find that the cases are more like 80-90% full, with plenty of space below the neck. The powder is NOT going to stop bullet setback, and it would be foolish to assume so. Some loads with longer, heavier bullets *might* compress a bit. Loads using a extruded powder will likely be close to compressed, or compressed. Varget will completely fill a .223 case up into the neck area, with the max load for a 55gr bullet. THAT is a compressed charge. As for the original post, It looks like bullet setback, or firing a round after a squib stuck in the barrel. I've also never really liked Remington/UMC ammo. |
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I've never had a bullet set back with my RCBS FL dies (no crimp). Matter of fact it takes 3-4 hard wacks with an inerta puller to pull them out. If your able to twist the factory bullets by hand there is definately something fucked up with their loading equipment. If you know someone with 223 dies just run the (problem) loaded ammo into the seating die and recrimp. |
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I have 17 rounds out of about 400 that had noticeable setback or movement of the bullet. 3 of them I was able to push all the way into the case. I filed a support ticket through their online help area. They asked that I send them in along with the box or lot number for review. Once I can make it to a UPS hub that will actually ship ORD-M labeled boxes I will post the results. After finding these though I make sure to get the block of 2X4 out and give them a press check for movement. With the mark up at wallyworld on this ammo though there are now much better alternatives for the money. I will post pics this evening when I get home. JestersHK |
I'm still waiting on the shipping label from Rem..so I pull out the 9 boxes I have left and I've got at least a dozen rounds doing the same thing.. |
At some point, there will be specific lot numbers to look for, not complete condemnation of every UMC .223 ever made. That's just not sensible. |
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I'm sure I'll get flamed for this and probably spanked by a moderator but......my dept. is most likely going to go w/ Kimber to replace our current sniper rifles (Rem. 700 actions). Pushed over the edge when we learned a neighboring dept. (lots of money to burn) bought a couple of Rem. 700s. This was in 2007 after Rem moved HQ from Illion to GA. The first one -- bolt would not close. Sent back for repair. Came back w/ same issue. Sent back again. Came back fubar again. THis time the LT in charge drove the friggin thing to Illion (I am in NY) and finally the custom shop fixed it. Now if LE cant get a replacement -- they were denied the relpace it please request numerous times. I wont buy Rem ever again. The next Rem 700 rifle seemed ok. This dept. sent 1 of their snipers to FBI school. He was subsequently told to immediately remove that rifle from the instructor's line. The issue, when safety engaged the rifle fired when no one was touching the rifle. Rifle was resting in prone position, pointed downrange, operators standing behind their rifles. This was an issue that creaped up for Rem in the late 80's. I wont use Rem brass when reloading as well. It seems weaker, I wouldnt say softer, just seems brittle compared to Win. Starline, Hornady. I'm scared for Rem. They really need to revamp QC on a multitude of points. Just my 2cent. It just a bout always seem to ne UMC and Ultramax cause such issues w/ various guns. As shitty and non-consistent as Wlf can be -- it is safe. |
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Would somebody please test the theory of bullet setback in an AR? I know people on here have reloading equipment. Take a fired, un-sized, un-primed case and seat a bullet into the case. The bullet should fit loosely in the neck. Do not crimp it. Measure the OAL and record it. Load that empty round into a mag and lock it into your AR. Now chamber the round, extract the empty round, measure the OAL and compare it to the previous recording. If you have no sign of bullet setback, try the ATF way of testing and just keep doing it until it happens!  I would do the above but I don't have my reloading equipment within 700 miles of me right now. ETA: I recently purchased 150rds of 55grn UltraMax ammo knowing how cheap ammo can be. Upon inspecting it, the bullet seating depths all varied. I ran each round through a seating die, and crimped using the Lee Factory crimp die. I haven't shot any of it yet. |
Agreed..thats why I posted the lot # on Pg 3...E07UB1... 
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Many many things have an influence on chamber pressure. Assuming that setback drastically increased chamber pressure is incorrect. Can it cause higher pressure? Yes. Can it lead to lower pressure? Yes. Without a pressure gun and a specific set of testing criteria all of the information being tossed around in these threads are ASSUMPTIONS. Ok, ducking for cover again. |
I've chambered and extracted some of my handloaded hunting rounds repeatedly with no issues. If it is a Remington issue, it must be due to out of spec necks on the brass, making them too loose, or I guess bullets that are under diameter? I don't think setback is a real problem with a good rifle and good ammo.
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I found this thread yesterday. After reading it all I pulled a box of UMC out of the ammo cabinet and checked. 4 out of the 20 yielded to finger pressure and the bullets moved into the case until the crimped case neck reached the top of the crimp groove (about .5mm of movement). While I couldn't push the bullet past the crimp groove, any movement concerns me. One round is so loose that I can hold the bullet with my fingers and rotate the case around it. Has anyone actually tried running this ammo through a crimp die to tighten it up? Is that a viable way to fix it? I really don't want to risk my AR if this ammo is really that terrible. What about disassembling it into components and reloading it without even firing it...can that be done? Are Remington UMC cases worth reloading, or is that a risk also? The lot number on this box is D-6H-C05. ETA...I emailed Remington with this information and the lot number. |
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1. Loose bullets in factory ammo is bad news. Rem UMC seems to have this problem. 2. There isn't really any way to know if bullet setback is causing these UMC KBs. But it could. 3. Of the KB'd ARs here in the recent past, most if not all show a case head failure of some kind with Rem UMC ammo. 4. I will not be shooting Rem UMC in my AR. |
Well, that's not what you said.  The BWCA is one of the last pristine wildernesses in the country. It's not a plinking range.
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Sorry for the hijack
That will be true when and if Remington issues a recall - as Remington is the one in possession of that knowledge. It is in Remington's court to reduce this problem to a batch of lot numbers if it can. |
I haven't been keeping up with this post but, seeing all the posts with people experiencing loose bullets makes me think that maybe it was set back afterall. It's still unusual. There has to be something seriously wrong at the plant to produce a neck that loose. A properly adjusted die will provide enough "grip" on a bullet (even one without a cannelure) to hold the bullet in place during cylcing in an AR platform. Its been proven time and again. I am interested in seeing those lot numbers when they come out. |
man sorry to hear that. They really need to hire some more help.
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I have had zero trouble with the 250 rd 9mm mega packs of UMC from Dunhams, but I will never buy the .223 ones |
I have no idea how much UMC, .22, .40SW, 9mm, I've shot over the years..20K rounds as a guess. |
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Unless I am wrong, that key-hole forge mark you speak of and show in the pic of your upper is CMMG. I have two M&P15 rifles and they both have that marked upper. Additionally, I saw numerous new RRA rifles at a gunshow recently that had the same upper. My point is, if RRA uses that upper and S&W uses that upper it is not so bargin bin IMO. Good luck with your issue...glad you are okay. |
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Glad to see Remington taking care of this for you. It's funny, that they are trying to say it's not their ammo's fault, but they are the one paying to make it right. I'm sure there is some conclusion on their behalf. Something like this: They aren't sure that it wasn't their fault, but we also can't dismiss the fact that it may of been our fault based on the evidence. Speculation, that's all. Bottom line is that your getting your AR rebuilt. Good for you. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - My Bargin Bin and the The Exploding Pmag **New update pg 1..Remington steps up** (Page 3 of 3)
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