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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Who uses Recce rifles today? (Page 1 of 3)

Posted: 8/30/2011 6:09:11 AM EST

The internet claims that SEALs replaced them with the MK12 series due to their underwhelming performance.

So besides 3-gunners, who uses a Recce style rifle?

Posted: 8/30/2011 6:13:04 AM EST

[#1]

Quoted:
The internet claims that SEALs replaced them with the MK12 series due to their underwhelming performance.

So besides 3-gunners, who uses a Recce style rifle?

I thought it was the other way around.

Posted: 8/30/2011 6:16:28 AM EST

[#2]

Oh whoops. I fail at reading.

Alright, so besides 3-gunners and SEALs, who uses Recce type rifles?

Posted: 8/30/2011 6:22:31 AM EST

[#3]

Quoted:
Oh whoops. I fail at reading.

Alright, so besides 3-gunners and SEALs, who uses Recce type rifles?

Whoever wants an accurate "all purpose" type rifle I guess. I love mine so far.

Posted: 8/30/2011 7:07:02 AM EST

[#4]

A block 2 M4A1 with the RIS 2 and an ACOG or Elcan is a recce.

Posted: 8/30/2011 7:11:46 AM EST

[#5]

Quoted:
A block 2 M4A1 with the RIS 2 and an ACOG or Elcan is a recce.

So then rangers use them too. And other super speed dudes.

Posted: 8/30/2011 7:17:57 AM EST

[#6]

Lots of 3rd string high drag low speed fudd types like myself too.

Posted: 8/30/2011 7:25:49 AM EST

[#7]

Us spongebob watchin' printer repairmen do as well.

Posted: 8/30/2011 8:08:18 AM EST

[#8]

Quoted:
A block 2 M4A1 with the RIS 2 and an ACOG or Elcan is a recce.

Not entirely. The "real deal" Recce rifles used a Lilja barrel, which can be seen here.

It is the M4-type, as listed.

Whether they're used or not any longer, that is a question I cannot answer.

Posted: 8/30/2011 8:11:04 AM EST

[#9]

A Recce is a concept rather than just parts.

Posted: 8/30/2011 9:02:47 AM EST

[#10]

Okay.

I guess you clearly missed the threads by Wes at MSTN several years ago basically breaking down what a true Recce is/was.

He was basically the SME when it came to that style of build. Too bad he left.

Posted: 8/30/2011 9:08:04 AM EST

[#11]

Quoted:
Okay.

I guess you clearly missed the threads by Wes at MSTN several years ago basically breaking down what a true Recce is/was.

He was basically the SME when it came to that style of build. Too bad he left.

That's like saying that throwing a Del-Ton upper on an M16 receiver no longer makes it an M16.

Posted: 8/30/2011 9:12:01 AM EST

[#12]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Okay.

I guess you clearly missed the threads by Wes at MSTN several years ago basically breaking down what a true Recce is/was.

He was basically the SME when it came to that style of build. Too bad he left.

That's like saying that throwing a Del-Ton upper on an M16 receiver no longer makes it an M16.

That has no bearing on the subject, and secondly, that's pretty obvious. Not sure how you got that out of what I stated.

A "recce" may very well be a concept, but it is well known knowledge that barrels used on these arms were made my Lilja.

Posted: 8/30/2011 9:13:13 AM EST

[#13]

I find it interesting that you see pics of NSW Mk12's, Mk18's & 416's out there but in all these years have yet to see a Recce.

Posted: 8/30/2011 9:14:11 AM EST

[#14]

Quoted:
I find it interesting that you see pics of NSW Mk12's, Mk18's & 416's out there but in all these years have yet to see a Recce.

As do most people, oddly enough.

Posted: 8/30/2011 9:18:33 AM EST

[#15]

Quoted:
I find it interesting that you see pics of NSW Mk12's, Mk18's & 416's out there but in all these years have yet to see a Recce.

Same here.

On the Lilja barrel thing I have heard that too, but I would bet that others have been used as well. Closest I have seen to anything similar to a Recce would be what is being held by the soldier on LaRue's home page. Cut down front sight, silencer, 1-4X optic (appears to be), and a rail that extends past the front sight base.

Posted: 8/30/2011 9:23:39 AM EST

[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I find it interesting that you see pics of NSW Mk12's, Mk18's & 416's out there but in all these years have yet to see a Recce.

Same here.

On the Lilja barrel thing I have heard that too, but I would bet that others have been used as well. Closest I have seen to anything similar to a Recce would be what is being held by the soldier on LaRue's home page. Cut down front sight, silencer, 1-4X optic (appears to be), and a rail that extends past the front sight base.

That's a KAC RAS MRE Model A, no upper rail ahead of the front sight. Not the most common free floating rail in the world.

Posted: 8/30/2011 9:27:07 AM EST

[#17]

Here is another photograph that may contain the elusive, big foot produced, alien distributed, signed by Elvis copies of a real Recce. (not my photo, just found on the intraweb)

Posted: 8/30/2011 9:29:07 AM EST

[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I find it interesting that you see pics of NSW Mk12's, Mk18's & 416's out there but in all these years have yet to see a Recce.

Same here.

On the Lilja barrel thing I have heard that too, but I would bet that others have been used as well. Closest I have seen to anything similar to a Recce would be what is being held by the soldier on LaRue's home page. Cut down front sight, silencer, 1-4X optic (appears to be), and a rail that extends past the front sight base.

That's a KAC RAS MRE Model A, no upper rail ahead of the front sight. Not the most common free floating rail in the world.

http://www.operationparts.com/v/vspfiles/photos/21166-1-2.jpg

Sure looks like rails to me. Maybe (for sure) not on the top, but definitely on the sides. Regardless, could this not be one made in house?

Posted: 8/30/2011 9:50:47 AM EST

[#19]

Quoted:
Okay.

I guess you clearly missed the threads by Wes at MSTN several years ago basically breaking down what a true Recce is/was.

He was basically the SME when it came to that style of build. Too bad he left.

I didn't miss shit. I remember what he posted more than you.

The first Recce was an issue rifle with an ACOG.

Posted: 8/30/2011 10:06:06 AM EST

[#20]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I find it interesting that you see pics of NSW Mk12's, Mk18's & 416's out there but in all these years have yet to see a Recce.

Same here.

On the Lilja barrel thing I have heard that too, but I would bet that others have been used as well. Closest I have seen to anything similar to a Recce would be what is being held by the soldier on LaRue's home page. Cut down front sight, silencer, 1-4X optic (appears to be), and a rail that extends past the front sight base.

That's a KAC RAS MRE Model A, no upper rail ahead of the front sight. Not the most common free floating rail in the world.

http://www.operationparts.com/v/vspfiles/photos/21166-1-2.jpg

Sure looks like rails to me. Maybe (for sure) not on the top, but definitely on the sides. Regardless, could this not be one made in house?

Could be, but most likely it looks like a Model A MRE(The Picture of Bob Horrigan)

Chop that front sight tower off and, well you get the idea.

Traditional Model B.

Quoted:

Quoted:
Okay.

I guess you clearly missed the threads by Wes at MSTN several years ago basically breaking down what a true Recce is/was.

He was basically the SME when it came to that style of build. Too bad he left.

I didn't miss shit. I remember what he posted more than you.

The first Recce was an issue rifle with an ACOG.

Again, okay.

At this point you're just swinging your cock, and not contributing.

Posted: 8/30/2011 10:10:02 AM EST

[#21]

I don't doubt that, but I believe you are missing the point everyone is trying to tell you that these Recon rifles are not a standardized build, but an evolving rifle.

Posted: 8/30/2011 10:13:35 AM EST

[#22]

I'm aware of that, and never said I wasn't. The original, general concept (which can be seen all over ARF and M4C), et al is centered around a stainless barrel. The M4A1 SOPMOD Black II upgrade is an upgrade to the M4A1. It's point was not to make a rifle that was primarily designed to launch 77gr pills.

Posted: 8/30/2011 10:13:35 AM EST

[#23]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I find it interesting that you see pics of NSW Mk12's, Mk18's & 416's out there but in all these years have yet to see a Recce.

Same here.

On the Lilja barrel thing I have heard that too, but I would bet that others have been used as well. Closest I have seen to anything similar to a Recce would be what is being held by the soldier on LaRue's home page. Cut down front sight, silencer, 1-4X optic (appears to be), and a rail that extends past the front sight base.

I don't see it mentioned on LaRues bio of him, but that guy was with Delta. A friend of mine served with him. Recce lore says it was built and carried by SEALs although I'm sure there could be some crossover.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Posted: 8/30/2011 10:23:42 AM EST

[#24]

Your mixing up the Recce with the SPR... The SPR under preformed and the Recce took off. However THE Mk18 took off even more. You got these guys who are busting down doors and shooting up the place. The last thing they need is a long rifled rifle.

Posted: 8/30/2011 10:29:02 AM EST

[#25]

Quoted:
Your mixing up the Recce with the SPR... The SPR under preformed and the Recce took off. However THE Mk18 took off even more. You got these guys who are busting down doors and shooting up the place. The last thing they need is a long rifled rifle.

Actually Frogman(SEAL Sniper) who initially dogged the Mk12 recanted and professed his absolute love for the rifle after using it in combat.

Posted: 8/30/2011 10:36:35 AM EST

[#26]

Quoted:
I'm aware of that, and never said I wasn't. The original, general concept (which can be seen all over ARF and M4C), et al is centered around a stainless barrel. The M4A1 SOPMOD Black II upgrade is an upgrade to the M4A1. It's point was not to make a rifle that was primarily designed to launch 77gr pills.

The Recce predates MK262 by several years.

Posted: 8/30/2011 10:39:52 AM EST

[#27]

I mainly use a Recce style LaRue rifle that I Built. Its my favorite.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Posted: 8/30/2011 10:49:58 AM EST

[#28]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'm aware of that, and never said I wasn't. The original, general concept (which can be seen all over ARF and M4C), et al is centered around a stainless barrel. The M4A1 SOPMOD Black II upgrade is an upgrade to the M4A1. It's point was not to make a rifle that was primarily designed to launch 77gr pills.

The Recce predates MK262 by several years.

I never said it did. And you of all people know that loads are developed long before they every reach production state. Jack, I stand by Wes' statements and what I learned from him. That is all.

Posted: 8/30/2011 11:14:20 AM EST

[#29]

Why does it matter? I am more concerned with seeing a real one than I am concerned about who made the barrel.

Posted: 8/30/2011 11:22:53 AM EST

[#30]

I think the iconic term RECCE is used more by AR15.com than by anyone else in the commercial industry, military, or the uber elite space shuttle door gunners alliance.

Accurize the piss out of your average 16" carbine and shazaam!!!

RECCE. But let's keep arguing about it! This is fun to watch!

Posted: 8/30/2011 11:27:48 AM EST

[#31]

The only current rifle to qualify as a an arfcom RECCE is the M4a1 SOPMOD BLOCK II with an elcan 1-4x. Even though the barrel is nit really accurized

Posted: 8/30/2011 11:40:52 AM EST

[#32]

Quoted:
I think the iconic term RECCE is used more by AR15.com than by anyone else in the commercial industry, military, or the uber elite space shuttle door gunners alliance.

Accurize the piss out of your average 16" carbine and shazaam!!!

RECCE. But let's keep arguing about it! This is fun to watch!

Just like how any 18-20" AR with a scope is an SPR, or any SBR is a Mk18... Then you have the "must (not) have" list for the KISS rifles....

Posted: 8/30/2011 11:41:37 AM EST

[#33]

Quoted:
The only current rifle to qualify as a an arfcom RECCE is the M4a1 SOPMOD BLOCK II with an elcan 1-4x. Even though the barrel is nit really accurized

Why is that?

Posted: 8/30/2011 11:44:45 AM EST

[#34]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'm aware of that, and never said I wasn't. The original, general concept (which can be seen all over ARF and M4C), et al is centered around a stainless barrel. The M4A1 SOPMOD Black II upgrade is an upgrade to the M4A1. It's point was not to make a rifle that was primarily designed to launch 77gr pills.

The Recce predates MK262 by several years.

I never said it did. And you of all people know that loads are developed long before they every reach production state. Jack, I stand by Wes' statements and what I learned from him. That is all.

Mk262 originated, as I hear it, from taking AMU BH ammo and sending it to end users with MK12s. I may be wrong. As I understand it, that happened in 2001.

Posted: 8/30/2011 11:45:40 AM EST

[#35]

Quoted:
The only current rifle to qualify as a an arfcom RECCE is the M4a1 SOPMOD BLOCK II with an elcan 1-4x. Even though the barrel is nit really accurized

The Block II M4A1 is demonstrably more accurate than the M4 MWS it replaced.

Posted: 8/30/2011 12:58:01 PM EST

[#36]

Quoted:
The only current rifle to qualify as a an arfcom RECCE is the M4a1 SOPMOD BLOCK II with an elcan 1-4x. Even though the barrel is nit really accurized

Noveske seems to think my rifle is a RECCE...

I agree that the term RECCE is more of a breed than a specific package. Just my opinion though.

Posted: 8/30/2011 1:22:55 PM EST

[#37]

So, an AR is a Recce when it has a 16" SS barrel, 12" free float railed hand guards, and a 1-4x scope? How about an ACOG? Collapsible stock and bipod optional?

Posted: 8/30/2011 1:39:12 PM EST

[#38]

Quoted:
So, an AR is a Recce when it has a 16" SS barrel, 12" free float railed hand guards, and a 1-4x scope? How about an ACOG? Collapsible stock and bipod optional?

Any magnified optic, and the barrel doesn't have to be stainless although traditionally it has been.

Posted: 8/30/2011 2:04:21 PM EST

[#39]

Quote fail

Posted: 8/30/2011 2:11:04 PM EST

[#40]

Quoted:
Lots of 3rd string high drag low speed fudd types like myself too.

Hey I resemble that remark!

ETA - to me a "recce" is more of a concept that set list of parts and in general I would consider just about anything with a 16" barrel, long FF rail and magnified optic a recce. Generally speaking they tend to have mid-length gas systems, match grade SS barrels, upgraded triggers and some other do-dads but even those aren't all requirements in my book.

Posted: 8/30/2011 2:29:04 PM EST

[#41]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Lots of 3rd string high drag low speed fudd types like myself too.

Hey I resemble that remark!

ETA - to me a "recce" is more of a concept that set list of parts and in general I would consider just about anything with a 16" barrel, long FF rail and magnified optic a recce. Generally speaking they tend to have mid-length gas systems, match grade SS barrels, upgraded triggers and some other do-dads but even those aren't all requirements in my book.

The 16" barrel isn't a necessity. 14.5 works as well.

Posted: 8/30/2011 2:41:49 PM EST

[#42]

I dunno what my floated Sabre 16" mid-length with a 1-4x is called, but I dig it.

Posted: 8/30/2011 2:58:13 PM EST

[#43]

There actually aren't any gov't specs on what a Recce should be? So every real Recce rifle (used by SEALs) has a 1:8 Lilja barrel, some form of FF rail, and the rest is left to the operator/what's available?

Wouldn't a SCAR-L with a S&B Short Dot qualify too by a lot of people's definitions?

Posted: 8/30/2011 3:02:08 PM EST

[#44]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Lots of 3rd string high drag low speed fudd types like myself too.

Hey I resemble that remark!

ETA - to me a "recce" is more of a concept that set list of parts and in general I would consider just about anything with a 16" barrel, long FF rail and magnified optic a recce. Generally speaking they tend to have mid-length gas systems, match grade SS barrels, upgraded triggers and some other do-dads but even those aren't all requirements in my book.

The 16" barrel isn't a necessity. 14.5 works as well.

Well for me, 16" is kind of a rule but too each their own. I've seen some 12.5" done up in recce style too.

Posted: 8/30/2011 3:18:52 PM EST

[#45]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Lots of 3rd string high drag low speed fudd types like myself too.

Hey I resemble that remark!

ETA - to me a "recce" is more of a concept that set list of parts and in general I would consider just about anything with a 16" barrel, long FF rail and magnified optic a recce. Generally speaking they tend to have mid-length gas systems, match grade SS barrels, upgraded triggers and some other do-dads but even those aren't all requirements in my book.

The 16" barrel isn't a necessity. 14.5 works as well.

Well for me, 16" is kind of a rule but too each their own. I've seen some 12.5" done up in recce style too.

Did someone mention 12.5" recce's

Posted: 8/30/2011 3:46:15 PM EST

[#46]

I think Wikipedia's description sounds pretty accurate

Agreed?

According to Wes Grant of M.S.T.N. a premiere small arms builder, these weapons were initially built in-house with the only specifications being the ability to shoot any 5.56 x 45 mm cartridge in inventory (at the time this included the first iterations of the 77-grain (5 g) Mk 262 Mod 0 cartridge), and that the weapon have a barrel 16 inches (406 mm) in length.

The barrel blanks are made by Lilja Precision and then chambered by Compass Lake. They have a 1:8 in (203 mm) twist and are stainless steel. They have a unique heavy barrel profile, starting with 0.980 in (25 mm) in diameter for the first 2.60 in (66 mm) of length, then narrowing down to 0.850 (22 mm) in diameter, 0.750 in (19 mm) in diameter underneath the front sight block, and 0.725 in (18 mm) in diameter to the muzzle. The barrels have the Knight's Armament Company - KAC QD (Quick Detach) flash hider, allowing the mounting of KAC's QD sound suppressor. A carbine-length gas system is used. These barrels were mated to flat top upper receivers, and retained the fixed front sight/gas block assembly, which would seem to imply that the original iterations were probably just rebarreled M4/A1 type carbines in SEAL inventory.

Beyond this, exact specifications vary. Since they were built in house, they seem to have been accessorized to personal preferences, with fixed (A1 and A2 styles) and retractable butt-stocks. (Original 4-point and improved 6-point Colt stocks, and the Crane/SOCOM/LMT stock are all in use.) Recon rifles built by Crane are reportedly all fitted with a free-float handguard system, the most popular being the Knight's Armament Co. M4 Match RAS and the LaRue free-float handguards in the longer lengths (which protect the barrel and provide more area to mount tactical accessories). Some operators reportedly use various back-up iron sights (BUISs) by Knight's, ARMS Inc, and Troy Industries, while others do not. The range of optics used on Recon rifles is wide, with various models by Trijicon (like ACOG TA01, TA31F), Leupold (TS-30A1, TS-30A2), and NightForce in use.

Due to the secretive nature of the end-users, first-hand information and data regarding the Recon rifles seems to be quite rare. How much these specifications have changed with regards to Crane's "production" weapons is unknown.

Posted: 8/30/2011 3:57:48 PM EST

[#47]

Quoted:
I think Wikipedia's description sounds pretty accurate

Agreed?

According to Wes Grant of M.S.T.N. a premiere small arms builder, these weapons were initially built in-house with the only specifications being the ability to shoot any 5.56 x 45 mm cartridge in inventory (at the time this included the first iterations of the 77-grain (5 g) Mk 262 Mod 0 cartridge), and that the weapon have a barrel 16 inches (406 mm) in length.

The barrel blanks are made by Lilja Precision and then chambered by Compass Lake. They have a 1:8 in (203 mm) twist and are stainless steel. They have a unique heavy barrel profile, starting with 0.980 in (25 mm) in diameter for the first 2.60 in (66 mm) of length, then narrowing down to 0.850 (22 mm) in diameter, 0.750 in (19 mm) in diameter underneath the front sight block, and 0.725 in (18 mm) in diameter to the muzzle. The barrels have the Knight's Armament Company - KAC QD (Quick Detach) flash hider, allowing the mounting of KAC's QD sound suppressor. A carbine-length gas system is used. These barrels were mated to flat top upper receivers, and retained the fixed front sight/gas block assembly, which would seem to imply that the original iterations were probably just rebarreled M4/A1 type carbines in SEAL inventory.

Beyond this, exact specifications vary. Since they were built in house, they seem to have been accessorized to personal preferences, with fixed (A1 and A2 styles) and retractable butt-stocks. (Original 4-point and improved 6-point Colt stocks, and the Crane/SOCOM/LMT stock are all in use.) Recon rifles built by Crane are reportedly all fitted with a free-float handguard system, the most popular being the Knight's Armament Co. M4 Match RAS and the LaRue free-float handguards in the longer lengths (which protect the barrel and provide more area to mount tactical accessories). Some operators reportedly use various back-up iron sights (BUISs) by Knight's, ARMS Inc, and Troy Industries, while others do not. The range of optics used on Recon rifles is wide, with various models by Trijicon (like ACOG TA01, TA31F), Leupold (TS-30A1, TS-30A2), and NightForce in use.

Due to the secretive nature of the end-users, first-hand information and data regarding the Recon rifles seems to be quite rare. How much these specifications have changed with regards to Crane's "production" weapons is unknown.

Since the minutiae of almost every other small arm in use by SOCOM types is readily available, I'd say the bolded sentence would be inaccurate.

Posted: 8/30/2011 4:11:18 PM EST

[#48]

Somewhere out there tonight a Seal is laughing at all the commotion his rifle is causing. Actually... Probably not as they have real shit to worry with rather than who has the proper barrel profile or rail system for their rifle.