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6.5 Grendel FAQ (Page 5 of 10)
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If you are still looing for a barrel, try Lothar Walther or Competition Shooting Sports. They did have some of Arne's .295 neck barrels in stock in various lengths. These were originally designed as accuracy barrels for Competition when the cartridge was still in it's infancey. The CSS version of the cartridge was being used in F Class while AA moved it to the AR platform. The danger is that some of the F Class load data was used in AR's back in the day. Bad ju-ju and really bad on bolts. j |
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I didn't go through all nine pages, so forgive me if this has already been asked. I was looking at the charts on the first page. The general performance of the 6.5 seems to be close to the .308. For a guy who has to make decisions based on what the budget can bear (I can't get both), what factors and characteristics make it preferable to .308? |
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MGI. Can your AR do this?
Saiga. Can your 12 gauge do this?
Originally Posted By Aimless: "They'd be so deep up your ass they'd be looking out your nose. Dumbass"
Saiga. Can your 12 gauge do this?
Originally Posted By Aimless: "They'd be so deep up your ass they'd be looking out your nose. Dumbass"
Get the .308 instead of the 6.5 Grendel The advantage is with the .308 over the 6.5 Grendel. - Ballistics on the .308Win are far superior to the real world performance of the Grendel. While the Grendel is supposed to match the .308 for drop & drift, it seems it matches the 168gr SMK .308 round instead of the superior 175gr round. That means the Grendel might not be supersonic @ 1,000 yards out of rifles with barrels less than 26 inches in length. - Factory ammo is FAR more available for the .308Win than the 6.5 Grendel and handloading data is also plentiful. You can use various rounds from the 155gr Scenar up to the 208gr Amax in the .308 to get outstanding long range performance. Bullet selection for the Grendel is more limited (espeically if you want to still be fit them into a magazine and maintain safe pressure levels). - The cost of factory ammo or reloading components are cheaper for the .308Win. Going with the .308 sized platform also opens up options for even more calibers (260Rem, 243, 300WSM, etc). The only advantage the 6.5 Grendel has over the .308Win platform is in size, weight, and recoil. |
Not when you compare apples to apples. Using Lapua brass, the cost should be about the same. Using the same brand/model bullet the cost should be similar using similar powder the grendel should actually be cheaper since you are gonna use only 37 - 30 grns instead of 40 - 44 grns. Can you load 308 cheaper using bulk bullets, crappy graf& sons brass (If they still have it) and pulldown powder? Sure you can, but matching quality components grendel should in theory be a little cheaper. ETA, and the same thing with the cost of factory ammo. Compare BlackHills 308 tp BlackHills grendel and it's similar. Same with the Wolf brass cased and steel cased ammo, they are all about the same as 308 in similar quality. |
"War is less costly than servitude. The choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." -Jean Dutourd
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I beg to differ and believe that your position is generally incorrect. If you want to compare apples to apples in terms of cost of reloading or factory loads, the .308 is less expensive and more available, period. .308 dies, brass, bullets, etc..., new or lightly used, are all less expensive. Moreover, you can find .308 components or factory loads anywhere the ammo/ammo components are sole, and 6.5Grendel almost nowhere (at least relative to the breadth of availability of the .308). In addition, the .308 is superior in every facet, reloaded or not reloaded, of ballistic and knock down performance. When considering the performance or cost of the cartridge, there is little objective reason to get a 6.5G (or 6.8SPC for that matter) over the .308. If you do choose it, you purposely choosing a more expensive cartridge with less terminal ballistic performance. Now if you are trapped or choose to be in an AR15 magwell, that is a different story. If you are/do, the 6.5G appears to be the superior good choice, at least for game over 75 pounds (then the .223 or .204 Ruger is probably the way to go). It may be a conscious choice, such as for a smaller/lighter weapon with less recoil (factors that can be very important), or merely for novelty, but lets makes sure it is conscious. This choice has been made over and over in favor of the 6.8SPC SPRs by operators in the rock/sand boxes, but it is a deliberate one in full appreciation of what performance is being given up in foregoing the proven 7.62x51. (Note: for what it is worth, I have heard from the birdies in my backyard that of those who have used the 6.8 in the suck, either have or would like to move to the .308 SCAR, SAGE or coming available .308 AR carbine/SPR weapons, but that is anecdotal and not empirical info.) |
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It all depends upon what you value more. If you want cheap blasting ammo, you would not/should not choose the 6.5 Grendel. The Grendel is a niche (non .223 AR's) on a niche (AR's). I do not foresee the component prices for the Grendel to ever come down in price to match the .308. 1) The 0.264" bullet is just not as popular as the 0.308" bullet 2) The 0.445" case diameter is not as available as either the 0.378" or 0.473". 3) The shooting public doesn't like different (see the most popular calibers each year). In some loads the 6.5 Grendel is still supersonic at 1,000 yds with barrel lengths as short as 18". All with using less gunpowder, less recoil, and less weight. |
Not really. Lapua Grendel brass is $58/100 pieces from AA, but other places sell it for up to $70/100. Lapua 308 brass from Midway is $64/100 and I'm sure it can be found both a little cheaper and a little more expensive. So the brass is comparable in price. 123 grn 6.5mm SMKs are $32/100 at midway 175 grn .308 SMK's are $32/100 at midway Varget is becoming popular with people loading the 123's in grendel so given loads using Varget for both grendel and 308 the Grendel loads are gonna use about 70% of the powder that 308 uses, making the powder part of the equation always more expensive for the 308. Now yes you can find cheap 308 parts. Pulldown powder, bullets, once fired brass. But most people buying a Grendel are doing it for either long range precision shooting or hunting, and both are using high end parts on purpose. People shooting 308 for the same reasons will be doing the same. You won't find people shooting matches at the 500 yard line using range salvaged brass, pull down nato bullet and powder. Apples to Apples, they are very similar in price. ETA: # > $ |
"War is less costly than servitude. The choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." -Jean Dutourd
Have you shot a Grendel to 1,000 yards yourself or are you going off ballistical tables that have proven to be inaccurate where the 6.5 Grendel is concerned? It seems that the Grendel might not be supersonic @ 1,000 yards, even with a 24 inch long barrel (if keeping the load within safe pressures). This of course depends on the bullet selection.
This is true. The 6.5 Grendel out of an AR15 is obviously lighter than an AR10 and the recoil is also reduced. Those are tradeoffs for the better long range performance offered by the AR10 shooting a .308Win round. |
No, I have not shot my 18" Grendel barrel past 250 yards, but others have shot their 20" and 24" GDMR's, 26" and 28" LR uppers at 550, 700, 800, and 1,000 yards. One 20" GDMR user has used the 108 Scenar out to 1000 yards and have it remain supersonic....barely. 29.5gr to 30.5gr of TAC should get you there w/ the 108 Scenar. 30.0gr to 30.5gr of AA-2520 should get you there w/ the 123 Scenar. 30.5gr to 31.0gr of AA-2520 should get you there w/ the 123 SMK. I'm not debating that some ballistic tables are "over" generous, but what ballistic table have been "proven" to be any more inaccurate for the 6.5 Grendel then for any other round? There is a debate on 65Grendel.com, but it is a polite one and more nuanced then a black/white, yes/no statement. Bill A, and others, state that, with their testing of the 6.5 Grendel, it is as supersonic as M-118/M-118LR, which is to say that it will behave just like the 7.62. Whom am I to argue with their testing? Others state that the 6.5 Grendel acts like M-852, which is to say that it depends upon atmospheric conditions and altitude as to whether or not any Grendel round is still supersonic in barrels under 24". These people base their opinions on their testing and experience (which, quite frankly dwarfs mine). FWIW, I have had M-852 and M-118 be both supersonic and subsonic at 1000 yards, firing the same rifle, at the same range, just by having different atmospheric conditions. There was no M-118LR when I was in the Army.
I agree that the 7.62 will have more KE, simply because the bullet weighs more. There are better rounds out there for shooting long range, and if you want to be competitive there are much better choices, but the 6.5 Grendel can get it done in an AR, if need be. |
Cuz it is the only caliber that requires licensing though Bill Alexander. |
"War is less costly than servitude. The choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." -Jean Dutourd
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What all is required to convert a CZ527 in 7.62x39 to 6.5 Grendel? Does the bolt face need to be opened? Magazine modified? Anything other than installing a new barrel chambered in 6.5 Grendel? I am planning to build one with a lilja barrel and richards microfit "old classic" stock. I will also re-contour the bolt to better clear the scope. Thanks! |
Best place for this question |
"War is less costly than servitude. The choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." -Jean Dutourd
LOL...... Well that explains A LOT.  |
What it explains is why every single rifle you buy from AA or any of the licensed dealers is built to one spec, the same spec that Bill started with while other new calibers have spent the last few years all over the map depending on who is making them and how they read the spec sheet. |
"War is less costly than servitude. The choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." -Jean Dutourd
No need too chrono it too confirm supersonic. Fire it at a 1000 yd Military KD range with target pits. The supersonic crack will be quite evident to the target pullers ( If it exists?). If there is no keyholing in the target, then it is supersonic enough to get the job done. M9 |
Consistency in manufacture is great, if it is worth the cost in lost variance and opportunity. Our economic system is based on the belief that competition bring out the best, and there is little if no competition for the best 6.5G rig. The absence from the DPMS options is indicative of this market fact! BTW: What spec? Chamber. Barrel material. Upper. Let's be realistic. This is merely a round with pros and cons like any other. It is not a weapon system based on new technology like a magnetic rail gun or some long lost Tesla epiphany. This restriction on availability is borderline ridiculous. It does not help current or prospective users as it is preventing the round from proliferating. In fact, it does not help the license right holder as the product is not proliferating. Negotiate a licensing agreement with reasonable fees and restrictions to allow the product to get the product into the mainstream manufacturers and market. Its terms can have increased fees based on volume and time, if that suits. Otherwise this cartridge is in very real danger of becoming a ballistic frolic and detour. Successful businesses generally are headed by reasonable people who make reasonable decisions about reasonable alternatives. Bushmaster and Magpul clearly came to such a meeting of the minds about product in the Masada's marketing and development. AA should be aggressively seeking all available partnerships and opportunities to expand the market for this cartridge. Who knows, in that event maybe a Masada/ACR in 6.5G will be the market's weapon of choice. You never know how far it will grow unless you leap at the chance. ETA: spelling/grammar fixes (should really start proof reading-apologies) |
Well let's see what has happened since I started shooting the Grendel about 18 months ago. Sabre started selling Grendels Les Baer started selling Gredels and through a partnership with Black Hills they carry BH Grendel ammunition Satern started making match quality barrels Lapua Ramped up production of brass to match the new demand Redding, Forster and a couple others started making match quality dies Wolf started selling brass cased hunting and tactical loads and is in the process of making cheap steel cased stuff A couple bullet makers have started working with AA on some Grendel optimized bullets AA finally figured out that people want barrel/bolt kits at a good price. 16" kits are $260, 18" and 24" kits are $320 I'm sure there are more things, but that should show that he is actively seeking partnerships to expand the supply in both quality and quantity. |
"War is less costly than servitude. The choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." -Jean Dutourd
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The actual license fee is reasonable and can be waved. It is not the primary reason why AA is hesitant to let anyone, willy-nilly, chamber an AR in Beowulf, or Grendel. ETA: Damn, too slow on the draw!  Also, I'm ok with DPMS not producing Grendel's. |
Can you share the primary reason? Also, what is the theory/reason behind the proprietary thread pitch on AA barrels? Why could it not have been made the same as AR10 weapons? |
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There are still people who are p-o'ed about the whole Beowulf muzzle brake issue from a couple of years ago. Bill A. has shown a bit of resistance to standardization, vis-a-vie, muzzle attachments. But he did finally do so. As far as the Grendel goes, the barrel's are threaded in the FAL inch pattern (9/16-24RH), aka L1A1, or in 3/4-28RH. There are many muzzle options available in their catalog. 2008 AA Catalog |
The bigger 6.5mm bore calls for proportionally more meat at the muzzle than a 5.56 bore. Also, didn't want the same as 5.56, so that there would be no accidents by installing a FH with the smaller bore on the 6.5 Grendel. Further, there's also a COTS concern regarding blank-firing adaptors, but that's a minor point. Finally, 9/16s is relatively easy to machine from existing 5.56 devices. AR10-sized devices were deemed too big and clunky for the AR platform. John | 6.5 Grendel: The State-of-the-Art Combat Cartridge. | www.65grendel.com |
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i was very interested in making a 6.5 grendel, until i started looking around for where i could get the parts, and realized that AA is holding the licensing hostage. open standards succeed for a reason. the AR is the epitome of open standards in the gun world. for them to do this is b.s. imo. could be the best round, and best platform in the world. but i'll laugh as they sit with their proprietary crap in their tiny monopoly until it fades into obscurity. |
Yeah, I used to think that till I watched the 6.8 fiasco. |
"War is less costly than servitude. The choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." -Jean Dutourd
I used to think that way too, but it has opened up substantially lately. With JT, Charles Daly and another vendor coming, as well as the 6.8 debacle, I believe .5 is the way to go now. |
What fiasco??? I believe it is still the only variant that has all manufacturer support with the exception of Colt...You can even get that caliber in a Ruger Mini!!! 
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Simple, the SAAMI chamber to shoot the standard SAAMI spec 6.8 SPC ammo.  There is no reason to clutter up the 6.5 FAQ thread with this stuff. I am sure everyone would prefer it to stay on track, that being 6.5 FAQ and not see it go down hill due to the same tired debate. But all you posters determine that, not I. |
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How so? It is the standard SAAMI load(s) which is the greater majority. That is why I bought the 6.8 and the majority of 6.8 people are shooting, standard SAAMI spec ammo. I expected to shoot this ammo, and all I do shoot for that matter. So how is it "lite" when it is the standard set forth by a bunch of people with a far superior knowledge on such things then you or I? Call it what you want but your only adding to the deviation, nothing more, nothing less. I do not get caught up in the hype about trying to push the mark beyond 2,550 FPS, the AR was designed well but not to really exceed approx 55,000 PSI (as I have read on this site quite a bit) anything more is a no go for me, I value my good looks  . Others can go their merry way in trying to push the envelope but my legal education and common sense tells me otherwise.
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I agree, the more people chamber anything for that matter in any AR variant, the better off we as shooters, competitors, hunters and hobby guys are better off. I saw a CZ in 6.5 G the other day, that in a bolt gun would be sweet, especially give the CZ action, very strong. I have a 452 and love it for Pdogs. Also, that 762x39 R CL barrel is coming... a little birdie told me... |
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I hear ya... I am watching this CZ 6.5 G rifle on the auction site now... its tempting. Everyone touts the 6.5 G accuracy, and to me only accurate guns are interesting.... I would image the bolt gun would outshine the AR platform with the right handload, plus the CZ action is most likely stronger then the AR15 action by some margin. Hmm... I need another variant like I need a hole in the head... but thats part of the fun... the toys. gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=107067524 |
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I had to take "Grendel" out of my GB saved searches because of that one's brother.... LOL If it took AR mags.... ala Rem7615 that'd be cool. Speaking of which "Earth to Remington... 6.8mm 7615, please!" Savage 'mini bolt' in a intermediate cartridge would be nice too, with a 'switch-barrel' setup!!! To bring this 'back on track'.... I'll be all over the Centerfire Systems Grendel upper deal in a couple days |
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I hope I didn't miss this on one of the prior pages, but is there any significant barrel life differences between a 6.5 and 6.8? I thought that I read on one of the other pages that 6.8 barrels loose accuracy much quicker. Can anyone confirm or deny that? Shawn |
I'm not an expert on this, but having listened to some experts on this once I seem to recall them mentioning the shoulder angle having a big effect. |
"War is less costly than servitude. The choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." -Jean Dutourd
| does anyone have the specs on Centerfire System's 16" 6.5? Their website is a bit lacking on the details |
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| What size game would ya'll feel comfortable taking with the 6.5 Grendel? I understand the 6.5 sweed is used to take up to moose sized game but the 6.5G is about 400FPS slower and uses lighter bullets. I understand shot placement is critical but wonder what the round is actually capable of. Thanks! |
Antelope, Small eastern Whitetail, Coues deer. |
"War is less costly than servitude. The choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." -Jean Dutourd
The general answer is all of them, but Bill A cautions that some may have ejection ports that might be on the small side of spec and cause trouble. The AA uppers have ejection ports that are a little bigger. I'm using a Larue Stealth upper receiver and I've had no problems. |
"War is less costly than servitude. The choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." -Jean Dutourd
It really should be fine, I don't think I have heard of anyone having any problems for a long time. Bill A's statement is more of a CYA than anything, just in case. |
"War is less costly than servitude. The choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." -Jean Dutourd
6.5 Grendel FAQ (Page 5 of 10)
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