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Rex also spent way too much money, Overall cost (rifle only): $2367. Most of us buy on sale and could build the same weight rifle for half that amount.
I guess he never applied for a military discount, he certainly deserves it. |
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Originally Posted By breastroker:
I do disagree on weighing our ultra light weight AR's with scope. Same with magazines. I have a 2 ounce aluminum 10 round magazine for my 6.8 SPC II. Others might only have 30 round magazines. Apples to Oranges. One persons scope might weigh 1.1 ounces, another's 18 ounces. I personally will never use a Red Dot type scope as there is just no way a 3 or 4 MOA Red dot scope will get the best accuracy. There is the old saying only an accurate rifle is interesting. I don't have any 3 or 4 MOA rifles. Some people can get by with a fixed 4 power scope. I need at least 10 power at 100 yards to get under 1 MOA. Most of my scopes are closer to 18 power, and most of my longer range AR's have 24 to 35 power scopes. View Quote Also, the old saying is that "only reliable rifles are interesting", so go ahead and pick up some AKs. I love mine. To each their own, but accuracy isn't everything in life. |
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The future of your lightweight AR build begins with the PWD. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I6Qb6kAJjChEJ56qhznv2291c5UHRDyNXuSXGObumqM/edit?usp=sharing
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Then the PDW needs a scope mount and scope weight section.
LOL, I shoot all my AR's holding the front of the magwell, pulling it into my body. Therefore I can remove all my handguards and pistol grips. And a 10 round magazine with 36 grain 223 ammo weighs a lot less than a 10 round magazine with 220 grain 308 ammo. |
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The future of your lightweight AR build begins with the PWD. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I6Qb6kAJjChEJ56qhznv2291c5UHRDyNXuSXGObumqM/edit?usp=sharing
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Originally Posted By jekbrown:
I do disagree on weighing our ultra light weight AR's with scope. Same with magazines. I have a 2 ounce aluminum 10 round magazine for my 6.8 SPC II. Others might only have 30 round magazines. Apples to Oranges. One persons scope might weigh 1.1 ounces, another's 18 ounces. I personally will never use a Red Dot type scope as there is just no way a 3 or 4 MOA Red dot scope will get the best accuracy. There is the old saying only an accurate rifle is interesting. I don't have any 3 or 4 MOA rifles. Some people can get by with a fixed 4 power scope. I need at least 10 power at 100 yards to get under 1 MOA. Most of my scopes are closer to 18 power, and most of my longer range AR's have 24 to 35 power scopes. View Quote |
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My heavy barrel ar-15 weighs 6.5 lbs. There's no need for anything other than a full blown sniper or dmr to weigh more than 8 lbs with accessories. Possible exception is night vision/ir stuff. So I'm looking at getting the bad oip barrel assembly, what's the lightest muzzle device I can get that'll take me to 16" when permanently attached??? Is it the v7 ti extended a2?
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Originally Posted By breastroker:
Ultralight AR-15 ver 2.0 I just don't understand why people think the 75 and 78 grain 223/556 ammo is so good for testing. These are made for long bull barrels, not for sub 20 ounce pencil barrels. Those rounds are great for testing 556 out to 500/600 yards, but suck for less than 200 yards. Try that ultra light 556 barrel with Black Hills 52 grain Sierra Match King ammo, this is by far the most accurate 223/556 ammo out to 200 yards. Usually half the group size over 55 grain ammo. My best group ever was Black Hills 52 gr. SMK at 200 yards, 24 rounds inside a quarters size. Midway used to sell them in boxes of 50 for less than $20 for blems. The best I have got out of the Faxon 19.4 ounce pencil barrel was 1.15 MOA. That's using an 12 power scope at 100 yards. I do disagree on weighing our ultra light weight AR's with scope. Same with magazines. I have a 2 ounce aluminum 10 round magazine for my 6.8 SPC II. Others might only have 30 round magazines. Apples to Oranges. One persons scope might weigh 1.1 ounces, another's 18 ounces. I personally will never use a Red Dot type scope as there is just no way a 3 or 4 MOA Red dot scope will get the best accuracy. There is the old saying only an accurate rifle is interesting. I don't have any 3 or 4 MOA rifles. Some people can get by with a fixed 4 power scope. I need at least 10 power at 100 yards to get under 1 MOA. Most of my scopes are closer to 18 power, and most of my longer range AR's have 24 to 35 power scopes. View Quote I agree about not weighing with magazines since they are so easily changed and likely will be changed fairly regularly. My events do not permit running between stages with hot rifles, so the magazine is separated from the gun when lugging it around anyway. I would disagree about weighing with optics though. That's an integral part of the gun - much more so than magazines. Building a sub 4 pound gun and then putting 1.5 pounds worth of glass and mounting hardware on it isn't that impressive IMO. The TA33 is a godsend for lightweight guns needing to be shot at distance. |
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Originally Posted By pscot468:
My heavy barrel ar-15 weighs 6.5 lbs. There's no need for anything other than a full blown sniper or dmr to weigh more than 8 lbs with accessories. Possible exception is night vision/ir stuff. So I'm looking at getting the bad oip barrel assembly, what's the lightest muzzle device I can get that'll take me to 16" when permanently attached??? Is it the v7 ti extended a2? View Quote |
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Originally Posted By pscot468: I see that it's under 1 oz. Very impressive for steel. Maybe a arson machine a-hole micro? View Quote |
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Yeah man, I don't shoot it much. I kinda baby my ultralights.
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Originally Posted By pscot468:
Is that a polymer car stock I spy withoutremourse??? 😀 View Quote $25 wasn't bad |
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Originally Posted By jekbrown:
Also, big thanks for linking to the PWD in your article, I appreciate it! View Quote A thanks to all for your opinions on light versus ultralight. It may not have been standardized before (or really, yet) but this group is easily the largest bunch of ultralight builders I've seen, and has the rep to institute the de facto standard. Sounds like it's set at UltraLight is < 4 lbs, Light is over 4 and under 6 lbs. |
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Originally Posted By breastroker:
Rex also spent way too much money, Overall cost (rifle only): $2367. Most of us buy on sale and could build the same weight rifle for half that amount. I guess he never applied for a military discount, he certainly deserves it. View Quote Now that spring has sprung, I need to get out and flog the rifle some more. Have a large box of various match ammo. Also, need to shed a little more fat. Rifle without optics or suppressor is 4.017 lbs right now. I know the fostech receivers are probably the easiest areas I could drop weight. |
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So we're at 100 pages now! And according to withoutremorse we're the largest depository of lightweight ar information in the universe 😀 feels good to be part of something awesome. This thread has really exploded in the last few years and it's taken on a whole new identity. And we're getting new contributors more frequently than ever! And who knows how many peeping toms are out there watching and benefiting from the work we do?
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Not saying being a peeping tom is bad. I followed this thread for a while before I finally figured out how to register on arfcom. The main reason I joined was so I could get one of Mike's kmr barrel nuts 😀 and it has served me well. This thread is a public resource, some may even say it's a national treasure!!! 😂 Lol maybe not.
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Originally Posted By withoutremorse42: but this group is easily the largest bunch of ultralight builders I've seen, and has the rep to institute the de facto standard. Sounds like it's set at UltraLight is < 4 lbs, Light is over 4 and under 6 lbs. View Quote Then I have my ultralight - it's under 3lbs now, but still has magnesium hand guard, upper and lower as well as no user drilled or ground up parts. Under 6 isn't really impressive. Under 6 with a some of the build outs is, IMO. Under 3 is impressive no matter. Under 4 can be interesting, depends on the build. Polymer upper and lower with holes drilled in it? Not as interesting anymore IMO. Everyone is looking for something different. This thread is great in that regard. Even if I am not into someone's complete build because of a b or c, I still appreciate the pursuit, parts, information sharing etc. |
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Agreed, the diversity of design choices make it interesting. I also agree that a lot of 'ultralight knowlege' is easily applied to non-LW builds in order to keep them as light as possible for their intended use. My DMR is like that. With scope and light, it's something like 8.6lbs...but a LOT pf thought went into when/where I could keep it light and not negatively impact the planned for level of performance. Lots of Ti parts, a pretty light handguard, etc. was used to "keep it light" specifically in the front end of the gun, for quicker transitions. In use it feels a lot lighter than it is as a result, which is what I was shooting for. Nothing 'light' about it overall, and yet the influence of ultralights is all over it.
Now...if only SOMEONE would make a 0.625 diameter 3/4 prong Ti flash hider... |
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The future of your lightweight AR build begins with the PWD. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I6Qb6kAJjChEJ56qhznv2291c5UHRDyNXuSXGObumqM/edit?usp=sharing
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It's hard to get a sniper/dmr under 8 lbs without compromising accuracy. Weight can help make a more stable firing platform. It's also hard to get to 6 lbs or under for a full blown duty rifle that can handle sustained full auto rates of fire! My duty 556 is about 6.5 lbs, that's with an eotech xps. I could get lighter with a micro red dot.
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Originally Posted By pscot468:
It's hard to get a sniper/dmr under 8 lbs without compromising accuracy. Weight can help make a more stable firing platform. It's also hard to get to 6 lbs or under for a full blown duty rifle that can handle sustained full auto rates of fire! My duty 556 is about 6.5 lbs, that's with an eotech xps. I could get lighter with a micro red dot. View Quote Mine is under 6 with suppressor, scope, backup red-dot and bipod. No poly receivers, handguard, etc. |
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This thread is awesome. Always very happy when a new ultra light weight part comes out. There are a lot of people from other forums that follow us here.
I know my sub 6 pound AR308's inspired many from the M14 forum, I am amazed that I went from 5.5 pounds to 4.9 pounds now down to 3.9 pounds for a ultralight weight AR308, with a legal rifle length barrel. Six years ago I built a 14 pound 6.5 Creedmoor bolt rifle, my latest AR6.5Creed weighs 5.5 pounds, but I could get to under 5 pounds in just minutes if I wanted to. I have a couple of ARs with 24 inch barrels, getting the most velocity from the 22 Nosler and 224 Valkyrie, but out to 200 yards the 18 inch barrels are just as accurate and feel much better. Who thought we would get aluminum AR15 carriers? Polymer AR15 and AR308 buffers? The 0.75 ounce titanium pistol grip is amazing, just a couple of years ago the standard was the 2.1 ounce MagPul K grip, then MagPul increased it's weight to 2.3 oz.! Also amazing this ultra light craziness is barely 6-7 years old, with the majority of the cool parts the last 3-4 years. I often say that not only are the new parts ultra light, their quality far surpasses MIL-SPEC. Who knows where we will be in 5 years? |
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Nada that's a very nice build. My Grendel with a six position stock and a government profile chrome lined barrel is right around 6lbs. By a true sniper/dmr I mean something with a bull barrel that can maintain it's accuracy with sustained fire without groups stringing. Not saying your rifle isn't accurate but any of us would have a hard time ($$$) building a precision rifle with a bull barrel and scope that weighs less than 8 lbs. And breaststroker aluminum carriers have been around longer than I've been alive! :P lol maybe next you can build a sub 2 lb ar pistol!!! 😁
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If you're at all interested in an ultralight muzzle device, please go here and help me plead with Faxon to make one...
https://www.ar15.com/forums/industry/Product-variant-request-SLIM-FH/700-292002/ |
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The future of your lightweight AR build begins with the PWD. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I6Qb6kAJjChEJ56qhznv2291c5UHRDyNXuSXGObumqM/edit?usp=sharing
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Will do! A slim Titanium pre drilled for permanent attachment would be awesome.
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I once built an AR15 pistol with 6.8 SPC II barrel, was hard to get it under 4 pounds.
My Extar 556 pistol started out a little over 3 pounds, about 2.8 pounds now, and if I could figure out how to get the heavy muzzle brake off it would be under 2.7 pounds if I really tried. This is the most fun a man can have with his clothes on. |
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One of these in titanium would be pretty sweet
https://www.instagram.com/p/BwazN-xnelP/ |
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Since I'm just venturing down the lightweight road I have a question. I've been using the PWD a lot to research and begin purchasing lightweight parts. I've weighed a few of the small parts that I've bought and they vary slightly from the reported weight on the PWD.
My question is, should I report these weights? |
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Yes, you should report it to the sheet manager, but you also need to make sure the scale you're using is reliable. Many scales are not great at measuring a few grams difference on very light weight items, even if they're reliable for finer differences for things that are 2+ ounces.
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I wonder if the new design of the v7 7068 aluminum Castle nut or the smokes composites 7075 skeletonized Castle nut is lighter... 🤔 The new v7 nuts have more Castle wrench cuts.
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quick update: all SLR Rifleworks Helix series rails updated. Worth noting that they have revised several of the weights upwards...which is something PWD fans have known should have happened quite a while ago. They are still super light for Al rails...but not as light as originally claimed. Anyway, there it is...all 50 models included. On to their other series next...then some MI stuff...
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The future of your lightweight AR build begins with the PWD. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I6Qb6kAJjChEJ56qhznv2291c5UHRDyNXuSXGObumqM/edit?usp=sharing
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Originally Posted By hfrog355:
Yes, you should report it to the sheet manager, but you also need to make sure the scale you're using is reliable. Many scales are not great at measuring a few grams difference on very light weight items, even if they're reliable for finer differences for things that are 2+ ounces. View Quote I'll verify the scale before sending in my findings. Thanks |
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Yep. If U weights vary it's usually for one of 4 reasons:
1. Scales not calibrated 2. Some manufacturers will redesign a part, or start manufacturing it in a new way, and they don't think the change is significant enough to tell customers ("gen 2" etc.). One person has the earlier model, the other the latter. 3. Some companies parts aren't made in-house...and they might change suppliers from time to time, with similar results to #2. 4. User confusion of some kind, it happens to the best of us At any rate, this is why the PWD has "alt U" weights in it. Very few people own a hyper accurate and properly calibrated scale...so sometimes we have to work with what we get. The fact is, manufacturers OFTEN don't put out great data, if any at all, themselves...so really that's where the U data comes in. It's there to try to "fill in blanks" and to be a check against manufacturers that like to play games with their M data, like not including barrel nut with their rail weights so they appear to be lighter than the competition. Anyway, for very small/light parts, you don't need to spend a zillion $ on a scale, you just need a decent one that is designed for the lower weight range and that includes a test weight. I think mine was $25-30, and it's plenty good enough for my purposes. |
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The future of your lightweight AR build begins with the PWD. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I6Qb6kAJjChEJ56qhznv2291c5UHRDyNXuSXGObumqM/edit?usp=sharing
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Another day, another PWD update: all SLR Rifleworks ION series (and their sub-series) have been updated. Many weights in this series have been adjusted/corrected by SLR, so this one took some leg work. Anyway, it's done. Just one more series to go. I love SLR...but their almost ridiculous multitude of rail options is cumbersome. At the moment there are 317 SLR rails in the PWD...and a few more will likely be added as I finish off the Solo series. 1678 total on that sheet.
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The future of your lightweight AR build begins with the PWD. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I6Qb6kAJjChEJ56qhznv2291c5UHRDyNXuSXGObumqM/edit?usp=sharing
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Originally Posted By jekbrown:
Another day, another PWD update: all SLR Rifleworks ION series (and their sub-series) have been updated. Many weights in this series have been adjusted/corrected by SLR, so this one took some leg work. Anyway, it's done. Just one more series to go. I love SLR...but their almost ridiculous multitude of rail options is cumbersome. At the moment there are 317 SLR rails in the PWD...and a few more will likely be added as I finish off the Solo series. 1678 total on that sheet. View Quote |
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Yeah, it's crazy. Not many companies offer both keymod and mlok in so many lengths and variants. I mean, in some of their rails they offer 9", 9.5", 9.7", 10", 10.25, and 10.5" lengths, among many others. SLR is about as close as you can get to a custom shop where you just ask for the exact thing you want down to the 1/4", and they make it for you. With just about every other company, i think to myself "if only they made...", not with those guys!
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The future of your lightweight AR build begins with the PWD. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I6Qb6kAJjChEJ56qhznv2291c5UHRDyNXuSXGObumqM/edit?usp=sharing
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I'm shopping for a gas block. I don't necessarily need one that's lightweight, but dropped by BAD's website just to check pricing. They no longer list their Ti gas block. Did they discontinue that product? I have used several of them in builds and would be surprised if that were not a viable product for them to keep around.
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That's odd...wonder of a gen 2 is coming. They have a single set screw variant on the way, but I'm surprised if it's replacing the original completely...
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The future of your lightweight AR build begins with the PWD. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I6Qb6kAJjChEJ56qhznv2291c5UHRDyNXuSXGObumqM/edit?usp=sharing
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Originally Posted By jekbrown:
That's odd...wonder of a gen 2 is coming. They have a single set screw variant on the way, but I'm surprised if it's replacing the original completely... View Quote The Taccom buffer looks interesting and is certainly lightweight but, I don't really get how this works for cycling. I put a V7 buffer(H2)in my build list with a Strike Industries carbine spring. The V7 buffer is fairly heavy in relation to the Taccom so I'm just looking for some guidance on having a rifle that cycles correctly. Thanks |
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Alright, so with gas systems, springs, and buffers you kinda have to choose if you want maximum reliability (standard weight carrier + heaviest buffer and strongest spring combo that your rifle/pistol will cycle and lock open with the weakest ammo you plan on using) or less recoil (lightest buffer/carrier and weakest spring combo with adjustable gas that's tuned just right). Reduce buffer weight and you will have a higher cyclic rate, which can negatively affect reliability. This can be reduced a bit with a properly tuned gas system and a reduced power spring. You kinda gotta decide what you want. You can find a good balance but balance=compromise. Take it from me, I've spent thousands on lightweight carriers and for max reliability stick with standard weight or xp stuff.
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Midwest Industries rail updates still in progress, but I did get all of their newest/lightest rail series added today. Up to 125 models for them. The work continues. If there's anything that is new that I missed in the last 6 months or so, please remind me. Thanks much!
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The future of your lightweight AR build begins with the PWD. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I6Qb6kAJjChEJ56qhznv2291c5UHRDyNXuSXGObumqM/edit?usp=sharing
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Originally Posted By pscot468:
Alright, so with gas systems, springs, and buffers you kinda have to choose if you want maximum reliability (standard weight carrier + heaviest buffer and strongest spring combo that your rifle/pistol will cycle and lock open with the weakest ammo you plan on using) or less recoil (lightest buffer/carrier and weakest spring combo with adjustable gas that's tuned just right). Reduce buffer weight and you will have a higher cyclic rate, which can negatively affect reliability. This can be reduced a bit with a properly tuned gas system and a reduced power spring. You kinda gotta decide what you want. You can find a good balance but balance=compromise. Take it from me, I've spent thousands on lightweight carriers and for max reliability stick with standard weight or xp stuff. View Quote This is why the buffer/adjustable gas block convo's I read on this thread are confusing to me. Most say that no one is using an adjustable block on a lightweight build but, what buffer are they using? To maximize weight savings I would think you would want an adjustable gas block and a lighter buffer. Right now the buffer and spring I'm considering weigh 7.08oz so I think I can pick up some savings there. I just looking for guidance on the best combo of buffer, gas block, and spring. |
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Originally Posted By jekbrown:
Midwest Industries rail updates still in progress, but I did get all of their newest/lightest rail series added today. Up to 125 models for them. The work continues. If there's anything that is new that I missed in the last 6 months or so, please remind me. Thanks much! View Quote |
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Originally Posted By Loonytik: I want reliability. Honestly, I don't know why you wouldn't want your gun to go bang everytime. If it weighs 3lbs but doesn't cycle...what's the point? This is why the buffer/adjustable gas block convo's I read on this thread are confusing to me. Most say that no one is using an adjustable block on a lightweight build but, what buffer are they using? To maximize weight savings I would think you would want an adjustable gas block and a lighter buffer. Right now the buffer and spring I'm considering weigh 7.08oz so I think I can pick up some savings there. I just looking for guidance on the best combo of buffer, gas block, and spring. View Quote My 3lb build feeds great, no issues. Would I take it to war? nope. I have adjustable gas blocks, bolt carriers or gas keys and use Taccom or hollowed out buffers on my ultra-light guns. I think there is at least one guy here that is an officer that may use taccom or similar buffer on a rifle he uses for duty? Or maybe it's just a light weight carrier...? Anyway, again - If I was going to war, I'd pick something with established reliability by 10's of thousands of users in the field as opposed to the reliability I can establish on my own at the range. |
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For my lightweight I use a subsonic 300 blk Nemo spring, a ds arms sand cut aluminum carrier with a rca adjustable gas key, and a taccom two piece polymer buffer. It's properly tuned and VERY soft shooting for a 3.2 lb rifle. My duty 556 has a cryptic coatings mystic black full mass bolt carrier, sprinco red cryogenically treated spring, and a h3 buffer with carbine gas fully opened and the recoil isn't bad. I'm pretty sure it'll still run if you drop it in a pile of sand, haven't tested that theory yet though 😀 the lightweight hasn't had any malfunctions though. If it's a life or death weapon get tungsten buffer weights and sprinco springs and use the heaviest/strongest combo that doesn't short stroke when you fire the weapon unlubricated with a loose grip.
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Originally Posted By Nada-Nada:
Anyway, again - If I was going to war, I'd pick something with established reliability by 10's of thousands of users in the field as opposed to the reliability I can establish on my own at the range. View Quote I guess I was looking at the weight of the buffer and thinking that was an area I could shave some ounces off my build. I'm trying to stay at 4lbs or below and right now my build list shows me at 4.289 with optic. I think I'll take pscot's advice and run a sprinco white spring and standard buffer for cycling. I may just have to live with being a shade over 4lbs. Thanks for the help! |
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Sprinco is the best! Call them, they will let you know exactly what spring and buffer you need for your build.
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PWD Update: All MI rails are now in, including quite a few "discontinued" notes for lines that are dwindling away. Also added all MI scope mounts. MI RDS mounts are next...
...and a few hours late: all MI parts added/updated. |
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The future of your lightweight AR build begins with the PWD. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I6Qb6kAJjChEJ56qhznv2291c5UHRDyNXuSXGObumqM/edit?usp=sharing
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nice! Minor update: all Aero Precision products are online on the PWD. Now to clean up a few things I've been reminded of...
oh, before I forget, it was starting to annoy me that the optics section was getting big...and the irons section was just sort of tacked on at the bottom, so I've separated them into their own dedicated sheets...one for optics, on for irons. Hopefully that helps a bit. Also added a "type" column to the optics/mounts section to simplify things a bit. Not done filling it out yet, but it's in process... |
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The future of your lightweight AR build begins with the PWD. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I6Qb6kAJjChEJ56qhznv2291c5UHRDyNXuSXGObumqM/edit?usp=sharing
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