It's not technically a mk18 mod 0. That is a navy designation (and maybe coast guard)

it's technically a m4a1 w/ a CQBR is all I was getting at lol.

Old rifle for the Pic thread:

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While we're busy being pedantic can we also nitpick the latest GT video? I tremendously appreciate him and his content, although some of the technical anachronisms presented really make me squirm. Especially when the majority of viewers will proceed to parrot those errors as historical truth without a second thought. I don't blame GT either, this stuff is incredibly difficult to research and fact check with all the aforementioned hearsay mucking things up. With that being said, here's where I take issue...

At 6:30 and later at 14:45 , GT states the Mk18 Mod 0 barrel was originally cut down to 10.5" until later changed to 10.3" when Colt took over production of the complete weapon. This claim originates from an article written by former Colt employee Chris Bartocci, but here's the deal, I think he's wrong.

In Jeff Johnson's 2003 NDIA presentation, he outlines the development process of the CQB Receiver. The NSN for which was established the year prior.




This document along with every other source including the overwhelming mountain of photographic evidence would indicate that issued CQBR URG's and later Mk18 Mod 0 complete weapon systems were delivered with 10.3" barrels from the beginning. I'm certainly inclined to believe that 10.5" was a starting point in development of the system when Karl Lewis was assisting NSWC Crane. However, I don't believe any rifles were ever issued in that configuration.

But what about the 10.5" LMT uppers? Yes, what about them? Has anyone any proof of their existence? Please share. I'm extremely partial to the notion that LMT helped supply Mk18 barrels and uppers during this expansive and resource exhausting period of the GWOT. Unfortunately, finding documentation of their usage is like hunting for evidence of Bigfoot.

Which leads to my next problem with GT's video; the claim at 14:23 that, "a lot of different barrels have been used.."

We know the CQBR and Mk18 initially utilized cut down 14.5" M4 government profile barrels. These Crane produced cut-downs continued to be used on Mk18 Mod 1/CQBR Block II URG's absent the front sight post of course. Yet it wasn't until the dawn of the URG-I that we saw the first SOCOM profile Colt cut down barrels (from M4A1's.) *Note that FN produced 10.3" low profile SOCOMs were already in circulation.




The point here is there's no indication that Crane "ran out" of 10.3" government cut-downs from the time they produced the weapon until it was handed off to Colt. Nor is there any indication that SOPMOD cut-downs existed prior to 2016. But just when did Colt take over manufacturing anyway?

Well, thanks to the recent batches of surplussed Mk18 barrels dumped on the market we can start to formulate a timeline. I've been fortunate enough to get my hands on quite a few of them and this is what I've observed: All barrels date stamped prior to 2009 are Crane cut-downs easily identifiable by their exposed threads cut to 10.3" OAL. After which, all subsequent barrels are Colt produced in-house with parkerized threads made slightly longer to 10.35" OAL. None are CAGE coded. None are SOPMOD profile.

That rough time frame would conveniently coincide with the Afghan surge and Crane's primary focus shifting to Block II production. It would make sense for Colt to assume any remaining Block 1 fulfillment and follow-on support during this period.

Now then, in case I haven't made my argument clear... there's not a plethora of manufacturers and models for Mk18 Mod 0 barrels, just two. Either a 10.3" Crane chopped down government profile, or a Colt produced version of the same. That's it.

I can tell I'm getting long winded so I'll forgive the rest of GT's mistakes like calling his "RAS" rail a "RIS" or anything else I may have missed. Thanks for coming to my CLONE talk, rebuttals and countervailing evidence are appreciated as always.

I know that some ODA team used 10.5"s, but if I recall correctly those were made in house by their unit armorer chopping 14.5s. I'd argue that doesn't really fall under the CQBR/MK18 programs. (Currently looking for the source of that so take that with a grain of salt.)

As far as the LMT uppers being used I agree with you in your assessment of that article. Allot of people cite that when brining up the 10.5/lmt topic. I want to say that there has been some imagines of lmt uppers in use, HOWEVER, I believed they were unit purchased items. Thus again not falling under the CQBR/MK18 programs. Similar to how AF units are purchasing 10.3 Giessele uppers and 10.3. DD RIS III uppers.

Imma try to figure out where I've got that from as it might not have been him. However, it was ODAs and I do remember seeing the pictures of said rifle.

Here are the supposed LMT uppers used by CIF via Stuka  

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I do have that 2003 PP presentation.  That is the one I was referring to earlier.  

A KAC RIS came first on the Block I and later KAC moved the locking screw to the rear by the Delta Ring creating the RAS.  Majority do have the RAS however.  There's a Mk18 Mod 0 in Erbil with a RIS handguard (Colt M4A1 lower, 10.3" Govt profile).  I inspected it last month.  Both of you are right and wrong.  No absolutes.

When I came onto my current job in 14', all URG barrels were Crane cut down 14.5" Govt profile barrels.  Dec 17' we got our first FN 10.3" SOCOM bbls in Afghanistan for replacements.  Later 14.5" SOCOM were available for the URGs.  URGIs were announced in 18'.  (this is referring to slick barrels for low profile gas blocks).  FSB barrels for UFG M4A1 RIS with FSB would use either M4 14.5" Govt or SOCOM bbls with FSB from mother Army.  Colt and FN are not the only barrel manufactures for these either as the Army has contracted others out as I've listed before.

The one Mk18 Mod 0/CQBR 10.3" bbl in shop I believe is a Crane Colt Govt profile dated 07/05.  As I see some white on thread area.  Rest of threads have oxidized after 18 yrs.
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CD

Here's what I have for 10.3" bbls on hand.  Colt (Crane cut downs) Govt profile, FN SOCOM and KAK SOCOM (see page 1542 for indepth report)
page 1542 here
Crane cut down Colt Govt profile. You can see taper pin slots and threads in white. Next FN and KAK SOCOM bbls
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Oh absolutely I believe some LMT uppers were used somewhere, in fact I'd be willing to put money on it. A soon-to-be deployed unit in need of Mk18's unable to acquire them in time from Crane circumventing the process and using discretionary funds to purchase COTS uppers is a very probable story. But like you said, it's important to recognize the distinction between ad hoc solutions and programs of record.

Another variable compounding the confusion is the language we use to describe and delineate these things becoming streamlined and homogenous over time. Those AFSOC 10.3"s are URG-I's according to Geissele, but they aren't real URG-I's. So what else should we call them? Same as the Mk18. What was once a descriptor for an entire weapon to set it apart from the non-serialized portion of the program has become modern slang to describe any ten-point-something inch AR-15 in common parlance. Given enough time this language forms a feedback loop to where even the military uses the terms interchangeably and without any distinction. Sure, definitions change over time. Guess I'm just trying to fight back.


Guys in his orbit had some interesting stuff. When we're done figuring out barrels there's another sacred cow I want to murder regarding the SU-237. Came into possession of a pretty obscure optic that I believe traces back to his unit. We will discuss it more later and I want to get his input, but for now just know that it seemingly ties into a theme of COTS "SOPMOD imitations" so to speak.


CD, thanks for laying out your history. Though what you've stated seems to verify my assertions about the Mk18 Mod 0.

The 14.5" URG's have the widest variety of barrel types and manufacturers over time. Colt, FN, KAK, Remington, etc. heavy and standard profile, dimpled only and taper pinned cut-downs, now DD for URG-I's...

But have you seen anything besides a Colt government profile on a 10.3" Mod 0? That's the only point I'm making here.

Click To View Spoiler

No, only cut down by Crane, Colt Govt profile

Thank you!

Maybe we can have it posted a 4th time

I learned a lot of these definitive rules have a lot of leeway with them. As mentioned, started to see SOCOM barrels, etc....

There was a time on here where even military guys were saying every single one of the MK18 Mod 0s were converted to 14.5" back at Crane, while I was holding a Navy MK18 Mod 0 in a starbucks parking lot.

Hope everyone is doing well!

Lol, yeah I guess

@Combat_Diver were these MK18 Mod 0s you posted NSW or some other group?

A large part of the problem is that most people are calling non-navy rifles with short barrels mk18s as it's become a layman's term. They are also not differentiating NSW mk18s from the regular Navy's mk18s.

For instance, I see allot of clones using a1, crane marked lowers rocking sopmod kit. Yet I haven't come across anything showing that NSW used the crane marked lowers. I.e. the big square marking in the Magwell.

I know there is a Coastie who posted his rifle here a few time, are they on the record books and inventory lists as mk18s?

also @combat_diver do you recall when the navy started marking their lowers with 18-1?

Theater spares on their way back to Crane, spring of 16' IIRC.  We still have a few.  Those pictured only one had a Navy Mk18 Mod 0 logo on magwell and it used a M16A1 lower (pics posted before).  All others had M4A1 lowers and not marked Mk18 Mod 0.

The first I saw of NAVY 18-1 was in 2016 in Iraq and Kuwait.  I was supporting allot of SEAL teams then.  Their armorer stated they just had them done prior to deployment.  Navy uses it as a property book reason.  Different NSN attached and tracked.  One upper/one gun =NSN.  Army may have several uppers on one NSN hand receipt.

Interesting so would the MK18 Mod 0 lowered rifle be NSN'd differently than the rest?

Or would they all be NSN'd the same with one lower/one upper?

Follow on, so assuming NSW tracks their rifles as 18-1 no matter what upper is on it (14.5 or 10.3) can you confirm prior to the adoption of the 18-1 nomenclature that NSW was tracking their rifles in a similar manner? I.E. was seal teams tracking their rifles as m4a1s or mk18 mod 0s prior to this?

Different NSN for inventory for a Mk18 Mod 0, Mk 18 Mod 1, M4A1 ect.  Its a property book accountability.

Can't say prior to that as I had no knowledge of what they did.

What’s up with the ACOG so far forward? I’ve seen this in various pictures as well as the ACOG being used as a magnifier for the Aimpoint and Eotech which makes sense I guess, just heavy as hell but I can’t figure out the point of using the ACOG so far forward.

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Trial and error.  I've gone thru several combinations in the early days to see what works and what didn't.  Sometimes we have pictures that proved a no go.

I didn't know KAK Industries was a Government contractor for barrels.

Cheek to charging handle weld

Gib

A clone of my original

Did someone mention Navy 18-1? I posted this a few years ago, but it’s worth posting again.

Trying something new

@scrolledandtabbed OT but any details on that Glock?

@ChemTrailZ glock 34 with steiner MPS and some sort of trigger work. Surefire Vampire.

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Cool pic for sure.

Not going to clutter this thread up, but appreciate the details; nice optic too didn’t realize they were doing enclosed emitters

Hey guys, been out of the clone game for awhile. Decided to jump head first back in with a CQBR.

Whats the consensus on the cage code receivers for CQBRs? I havnt come across a C mark in a minute and was able to get a cage code at a good price.

What would be the better pairing, a Colt Gov 10.3 or a Colt Socom profile for that particular pairing?

B.O block, DD rail, 4 prong have been acquired. That's about where I am at rn.

Almost done with mine
Since I can’t find a Wilcox mount to save my life, help me find the parts to Jimmy rig this please

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And someone said adjustment caps need to be modified? Tell me about that please

CAPS

You'll need screws for the base, AP CS has been phenomenal IME. You could run that low mount with a ring spacer:

https://tnvc.com/shop/aimpoint-ring-spacer/

Still not clone correct but it works. You’ll need longer ring screws. Again, AP CS.

Just to clarify, it appears in the second pic on TNVC, it comes with the 4 longer screws. Are there other screws you’re referencing?

My bad, it does appear that all hardware is included.  Missed that.

Sweet thanks
That might get me close enough to post in this thread. I’ll mull it over at lunch

The voices inside my head: "Build a clone of what Shawn Ryan's issued rifle may have looked like."
Me: "Ok, let me finish my strawberry Fruit Roll-Up first."

Colt A2 fat grip en route, but I was eager to share this in the meantime.

My version falls somewhere between his early and later configurations. And no, I will not be spray painting my rifle.



Pics of Shawn Ryan from his personal IG account, @shawnryan762. He served on SEAL Teams 2 and 8 and later became a CIA Contractor. Great interview/article here. I’ve been watching The Shawn Ryan Show for several years now and he’s doing the Lord’s work both literally and figuratively.

Some of these had cage coded uppers (Kxxxx) and I've used FN cage coded.
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Marsoc
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Soon…

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