Mods, even though this deals with actual M16s, I put this here for all to see since this sub-forum gets more traffic than the machine gun sub-forum. If you want it moved, that's fine.

The PD I work for got 17 M16s from the .fedgov on the surplus program, enough to issue to all our Officers. 9 (iirc) had actual M16A1 triangular handguards and came directly from another Department that had turned them in. 8 of these 9 were already converted for semi auto only with a semi auto only selector and 1 is still full auto. These 9 are beat to hell and back but the actions are as smooth as a baby's butt.

The other 8, apparently, came directly from the .fedgov surplussing facility and appear to have been extensively rebuilt. These 8 have A2 handguards and appear to be freshly rebuilt, or at least never issued after being rebuilt. The upper and lower show little or no finish wear and appear to have just come off the assembly line. The actions are rough and gritty, but they are bone dry and this may be why.

All have 20" A1 barrels and fixed stocks. Although I've never handled a rifle with an A1 stock, I will say, from handling my Colt AR15A2 20" HBAR, they all feel like they have A2 butt stocks on them. Length of pull feels the same as my Colt, way too long for me, anyway, and it is impossible to get "nose to charging handle" without serious, uncomfortable contortion. All these rifles are Colts and come from two distinct serial number ranges. The ones with the A1 forearms are in the 1.7-1.8 million serial number range. The ones with the A2 forearms are in the 5.something serial number range and, again IIRC, there are two that are consecutive serial numbers. When I post pics, I will be blurring out the last 4 of the serial numbers since they are not my rifles. All are fine examples of retro, A1 rifles, some "battlefield pickups" and some (almost) factory new. From what I could see when looking them over and verifying serial numbers, all the A1 handguards, while dirty and scuffed up, are intact, without any of the tabs on the vent holes being broken off or any other chipping or cracking. I just wish they were mine, they are in good enough condition that they would probably sell for a pretty penny. They aren't mine to sell, however, so it's a moot point.

The surplus program, apparently, has either M4 barrels or complete flat top uppers and collapsible stocks available. The 20" rifles won't fit into the rifle racks in our cruisers, so we are going to try to get barrels/uppers and stocks to convert them over. I wish we didn't have to go with the front heavy M4 barrels, but we don't have the money to get better barrels, so we'll do what we can afford. For our use, the M4 barrels are MUCH better than the rifle barrels, anyway.

If everyone is interested, I'll post pics of them as I take them home and get them cleaned up and inspected. It will probably take a while. Right now, because of life and work, I am only able to do about one a week, so it will take quite a while to get them all done.

Anyway, on to rifle number one. I brought this one home and got it cleaned up this morning. It is from the group that has A1 handguards and had been formerly issued to another PD. When received, it had label maker labels on the stock with a Car # and the serial number, probably because the label was much easier to see than trying to read it off of the lower receiver. I took the labels off when cleaning.


The bolt. The extractor has an o-ring over the spring. The finish is worn silky smooth. The bolt and carrier fail the gas ring test and, when the bolt and carrier are stood on the bolt, the carrier falls almost as if there are no gas rings there, so they will need replaced before being issued. Aside from that, it is worn but in very good condition.


The carrier. Again, worn to a silky smooth finish but in very good condition.


The cam pin. It is pretty heavily worn. The groove in the pin is pretty heavy and it may need to be replaced.


The upper showing the A1 barrel. I will say, the A2 slip ring is a VAST improvement over the A1. I had a hell of a time trying to grip the slip ring hard enough to get the handguards off. The angled surface of the A2 slip ring is so much easier to work with.


Finish wear on the upper.


Finish wear on the other side of the upper.


The lower. If you look close, you can see the 3rd pin, The auto sear is present but, because of the semi auto only selector, it won't go into auto, only semi. When you get down to it, the vast majority of cops don't need full auto anyway and even the ones that are still capable of full auto will be converted.


Other side of the lower.


Right side of the mag well. Lots of finish wear, but this one isn't the worst of the bunch we got.


Left side of the mag well with the wonderful prancing pony. It is early enough that it is stamped "AR-15".


Pistol grip. I think this is what is called mottled? I will say, I love the feel of an actual A1 pistol grip, at least as good as the Magpul MOE I have on my personal carbine. Makes one wonder why they redesigned it into the A2. If it was made from the same materials as the A2, I think it would be close to the perfect part.


Overall rifle pic.


Other side of the rifle.

That's all for now. If desired, I will post pics of another next week. Enjoy.

I hope you are able to get some range time with the FA before they get converted. Neat stuff.

That one definitely has an A2 stock

Good write up they look good!

Plenty of M4 barrels to be had in the 1033? program now that big Army is switching to M4a1 profiles.

Gas rings cheap enough to replace on all the guns.  Question on your cruiser rack, will a 20" with collapsible stock fit?  That would be the cheapest conversion.  Been awhile since I've seen a SN 183xxx.  Have had just about every variant issued to me at one time starting with a XM16E1-M16A4, XM177E1-M4A1 URG 10.3"/14.5".  There is something about the light weight of the M16A1s.  Just remember those barrels are 1:12 so use 55 gr or less (may stabilize some 62s)

CD

Already spoke to the Chief about this. Since I'm the only real gun guy on the PD, he gave me permission to take one to the range for a fun day, provided I use my own ammo. I still have to make sure they all work, so I'll just do it then.

I figured as much. Our Sgt and Lt are the administrators for the program and they spoke to the guy that delivered these rifles. He apparently told them that there are plenty of barrels and stocks available, we just have to request them and wait till they are delivered. I know how to rebuild them from reading, although I have never actually done it. Seems relatively easy with the right tools. We'll see how it works.

I don't think they will fit, although I would have to try. The way the upfitter mounted the rifle rack, it is between the seats, pointed up. Cars are Ford Interceptors, built on Tauruses. My personal carbine has a 16" barrel with a collapsible 6 position stock. I run it in the third position and, when in the rack, the barrel only has about 2" of clearance before hitting the ceiling. It may work with the stock completely collapsed, but with the way most of our guys are, I'm not sure they would be able to remember which stock position they would use well enough to set it on the fly if they need it.

I also agree about the wonderful feel of an A1. I'd never played with one before this. Very light for a full sized rifle, easy to maneuver. I almost wish we could leave them like this, but they're just too long for what we would be using them for. And I know they are 1/12. Duty ammo is Speer 55gr Gold Dot, practice ammo is American Eagle 55gr FMJ, so no issue at all if we have to leave them this way.

I wouldn't replace the gas rings unless it fails to hold the bolt up.  On the other hand, they're cheap so it's not going to hurt.

Good choice for duty ammunition.  I keep some around for my 1:12 barrels.

Cool old Retro Colts. I'll bet the guys on the Retro Forum will appreciate this. Your PD could make some money selling those uppers.

Isn't it true that if you make any modification you have to keep all of the parts so they can turned in in original condition? Your PD doesn't actually own them, right?

Honestly it seems dumb to me to even get these things. They're not set up the way you need them. You really need flat top uppers, collapsible stocks and short barrels. You don't need full auto and now you have a class 3 weapon in your car just waiting to be stolen. A local PD near me got one stolen out of the trunk of a car while he was delivering a bicycle.

I think you guys would be ahead of the game to just buy a bear creek arsenal or Anderson M4 style rifle for $350. It is already outfitted like you need.

That grip looks similar to bakelite phenolic resin and fiber very cool!

Hopefully you guys have the funds to configure them to be carbines. M16s are fine for the range, but not as practical for duty use. When I got my M16 swapped out with an M4, I was much happier. It is better in every way. I know PDs are limited on what they can do to duty rifles and stipulations on what parts they can use.

That was a good day....

1033 program? My agency also has a good bit of those. Was really cool seeing some of them. I’ll have to post some pics sometime.
Edit: we are turning almost all of them in for patrol rifles now, FYI.

Except the PD doesn't own those rifles.  If turned in, they must include all parts signed out.

Cool from a collector standpoint but not a practical duty one. Get 10.3” to 14.5” rifles with optics ready A3 uppers and RIS for easy light mounting. Just my personal opinion. My agency gives us MK18’s and MP5k’s for duty use and they’re great.

Pics of that receiver with "Colt AR-15" brought back memories. The M16A1 I was issued while in the ARNG was S/N 1867446 and looked just like that. It also had ANAD 7-74 stamped into it for overhaul work at Anniston Army Depot.

My department has a mix of M16A1s and Colt 604s. I've even seen a couple that have 601 lowers.

My Department received several hundred M-16 A1’s in the early 2000’s and I was issued a very similar Colt A-1 in the same serial number range.  The research I did led me to believe mine had been issued to the Air Force in the late 60’s to early 70’s.  The upper and lower receiver showed finish wear but overall was in great condition and very accurate.  The upper receiver on most of our A-1’s did not have built in case deflector.

Our rifles had been converted to semi auto and mine was one of the few which had an A-2 butt stock.    As soon as our agency authorized personally owned rifles I turned my A-1 in and carried my 16” flat top AR-15 with six position collapsable stock.    My Department bought several batches of 16” carbines which were issued to road personnel.    The first batch were Bushmasters and the next batch were Armalite.   My Daughter was hired in 2006 and her Cadet Class were all issued new Armalite 16” flat top AR-15’s with six position collapsable stock.

Upper command and office personnel were being issued the M-16 A1’s but they may have all been returned to the Fed’s by now.   Thanks for posting OP!

I can dispose of those old useless A1 parts you won't be needing when you switch barrels.  

Have fun at the range OP.

In my experience with RTD (the non-firearm surplus) barrels and stocks aren't always available, but M4 barrels are the most common barrels in the surplus cycle. You'll find them listed under both the M4 and M4A1 SOCOM barrel NSNs, and the incorrect NSN is sometimes used. (Usually when a depot swaps M4 for M4A1 SOCOM barrels, they'll turn the old barrels in to DLA under the new barrels' NSN.)

We had no problem finding 20 M4A1 SOCOM barrels a few years ago.

M4 stock assemblies were much harder to locate (especially complete) but finally we scored about 30 of these complete new kits at DLA Red River for $14 per stock:
NSN 1005-01-569-6938 - STOCK,GUN,SHOULDER
Attached File


They include the H6 buffer, but it works fine in a carbine. (Actually it's better, since a few of our surplus CQBR uppers are overgassed due to gas port erosion).

As far as delivery, you'll have to affect that yourself (unless you find something at DLA LTS Columbus, which will always pack & FedEx parts to you with just your FedEx account number).

Normally your agency finds & pays a pack 'n ship service to go to the DLA location, retrieve, pack, and ship the items. Generally $50 + actual shipping costs. Or you can go pick the items up yourself.

You can also screen (inspect) items during the listed screening hours at any DLA location. (LTS Columbus does not allow on-site inspection, but all their surplus is generally new).

Most of our M16 lowers are now converted to MK18 using surplus CQBR uppers from NSWC Crane. We got really lucky with those. Someone listed a quantity of 84 under the M4A1 stripped upper receiver NSN, so we got them for $6 each.



We also have about 30 Aimpoint CompM4 sights, which were $33 each.

In my state, we pay a fee equal to 10% of DoD unit replacement cost per item.
You can run saved searches for lists of NSNs, and the system will send you an email alert when something pops up.

That's all correct--the agency does not own them, and if the government ever wants them back, they need to be in the same configuration as they were received.  IIRC, a few agencies down here in FL got into hot water a while back for selling 1033 parts.

A number of agencies around me have gone down the 1033 M16 trail, and in the end gave them back, for all of the reasons stated.  FHP lost a handful of them due to theft, and was about to get the hammer dropped on them, and decided to give them all back--pallets of really nice A1s.  My boss(es) attempted to do the same thing at my agency, but when I laid out how much it would cost to transform an A1/A2 into a usable patrol rifle, they agreed that new commercial rifles was the better option.

ETA  All that being said, if your agency has nothing, I'd never turn down a bone-stock A1.  It's far better than a pointy stick.

Yes Mr. Buzzkill, hence the smiley.

D'Oh!  My bad.
Too many depts going willy nilly and skewering my pov.

Yep, as was stated, the rifles still belong to the .fedgov and, if they ever want them back, we have to return them in the came configuration as they were given to us. That's why I'm desperately hoping that we can get complete uppers instead of just barrels, MUCH easier to swap out. The only thing that would have to be wrenched is the stock. Not a big deal, but with 17, it would take some time. I'm also hoping for flat top uppers to be able to use red dot sights, but that may be too much to hope for.

The 1033 program wasn't my first choice, but I work for a small PD (6 full time, 11 part time). As usual with small PDs in this day and age, we have no money. We were only allowed to start carrying rifles last year, due to a series of Chiefs who were so hide bound and traditional that they simply refused to consider that rifles aren't just for SWAT and the military. We're lucky to be able to afford gas in the cruisers, let alone being able to buy rifles for everyone. We allow Officers to carry personally owned rifles, pending inspection and approval, but as most here know, the majority of cops aren't gun guys. If they aren't issued a gun, they won't go buy one and carry it. We have a few that own rifles (me included, of course), but nowhere near everyone. Even some those that can afford to buy rifles won't do it. Their line of thinking is that if they need it, the PD should issue it. I know those here that work for PDs run into that line of thinking a lot. I don't get it, but that's what they think and they refuse to spend their own money to get it. Hell, they won't even come out on their own time to train, let alone spend their own money on ammo to go shooting.

We are probably able to scrape up enough money to buy a rifle a year, unless funding is cut again. When we are able to buy enough rifles, the 1033 rifles are going back. While the program lets us get rifles, the reporting and storage requirements are a PITA. Because I'm in charge of firearms and firearms training, that PITA will fall to me. I hate it, but you do what you have to in order to be able to get what you need to do the job.

Great post, that is a very nice old school M16. I'm sure it can do the job if needed.

1033 guns are the best

our agency has quite a few colt commando's (11.5" FA) with surefire cans on loan from the .gov. we even managed to get 2 saw's that sit collecting dust in the armory......I keep pushing the swat commander to put one in the turret of the new bear cat we just got  Just because

@garred8787

Factory config with A2 lowers (marked Commando or M16A2)? Were they acquired through FEPP?
Are you a federal, state, or local agency?

man that's just so wrong on so many levels......

A bear cat?
C'mon, you can get MRAPs from 1033.

Bearcats are better for LE work. (They're also like $80k).

We have a M1248 MRAP, but would prefer a Bearcat. Too bad we can't trade.

Supposedly the M998 HMMWV is going to become agency property, since Trump made changes to reverse Obama's E.O. governing LESO. (Not the MRAP though.)

Lucky bastard. An 11'5" barrel would be my idea of a perfect LE carbine. When I can scrounge up some cash, I'm gonna build a 10.5/11.5" pistol with SBA3 brace to use on duty. I currently use my personal Colt, which started out as a pre1994 AWB rifle 20" HBAR with A2 stock. I bought a Bushmaster Superlight 16" barrel and 6 position collapsible stock and had a friend put the barrel on for me several years ago when a former Chief said that he was going to let us carry rifles, then changed his mind. This was before I knew about Bushmaster's QC issues. The front sight is a little canted and the rear sight is only 5 or 6 clicks from the extreme left side of the carry handle, but it did zero and, because it zeroed, Bushmaster refused to do anything about it and insisted that it was "in spec". The carbine is more accurate than I am with it and has always functioned flawlessly, even when fired 1200 rds in 3 days at rifle instructor's school this past October. It's just that, when most of my use for it involves in and out of cars and in and around buildings, even 16" is a little long. It is nice and light, with the pencil profile barrel, which makes carrying a breeze. I just can't wait till I can build a pistol and carry that, instead. Even if we manage to get all these M16s converted, I'll continue to carry my personal carbine because I have it set up how I like it and will be able to do the same with a pistol. Sometimes I hate that life and bills intrude on my hobby. Why couldn't I have been born rich instead of good looking?

Thanks for the pics and write up.

Why a pistol? Why not go NFA?

With a little assistance from your agency, you can end up with a personally-owned SBR without having to pay any $200 tax.
(Form 1 + Form 5)

It's easy to fix a slight cant by filing one side of the barrel index pin so you can rotate it in the upper. Then torque the barrel nut down while holding the FSB in the correct position.

If you look at the gas tube where it interfaces with the gas key, it's probably rubbing on one side.

I have seen them prematurely lose seal due to wear from the canted tube/FSB. Then your weapon will start short-stroking. So if you don't correct it, just pay close attention to this interface, and plan on replacing your gas tube (and possibly gas key) earlier than normal (which for most people is never).

I don't know the specifics. all of the ones issued have collapsible stocks and we just removed fsb's and put centurion rails on them a few years back with PEQ15's
Marked M4 Commando
Local agency. County Sheriff's office.

We have a MRAP too. Were a rural community so the Bear cat should work better, smaller wheel base and supposed to do better off road. and Far more than $80k like 4 times that

Here's a question: if you have to return these in the same condition they came in, how come some are converted to semi auto? Somebody didn't return them to original condition now did they? I wonder if they really care? Barrels, for example, are a consumable item. If you burned out a 20" pencil barrel and replaced it with a dissipator barrel, or something, do you think they really want the original barrel reinstalled? I'm not saying they don't, I'm just really curious.

Per the program guidelines, as I understand it, it doesn't matter if the barrel is shot out. If it came to us with a 20" A1 barrel and fixed stock, it has to go back with a 20" A1 barrel and fixed stock. Although I wasn't there when they were delivered, I was told that the ones converted to semi auto were basically picked up from a PD turning them in and delivered to our PD and did not go back to the surplus facility before coming to us. I don't know if they got them that way or if they converted them and just didn't convert them back. No idea and likely no one would ever tell us that, anyway. I don't know if there would be any repercussions if we didn't convert them back to the original configuration, but the program guidelines are pretty cut and dried. It's the .fedgov, it doesn't have to make sense.

I'm surprised they allowed that. We had a truck that burned to the ground and they made one of the Lieutenant's go diving through the ash to hunt down the trip sear and FCG. That and a drmo pvs-14 turned up missing and that was a fiasco. It was later found in a pawn shop 80 miles away, one of the "trustee's" had a theft ring going on from the fleet department when they were washing cars.

How would you do the form 1 + form 5 thing? my desire to know more has intensified

F1 in the agency's name. Use on duty at least once. F5 (signed by CLEO or designee) to the individual officer (or their trust, LLC, etc.)

If one buys an existing NFA item, it's 2x F5.
One F5 to the agency, and one F5 to the officer purchasing for duty use.

I have a big writeup/guide stickied in the LEO subforum.

Not that you’re wrong, but how are you dancing around the precedent set forth by US vs Fleming? I know it’s not 1:1 as he was using a police entity to effectively be a straw purchaser who never owned the NFA items, but, using F5 to avoid paying the tax seems like you’re toeing the line pretty close.

That's exactly what he was doing. Fleming wasn't close at all. He was in blatant violation. In one instance, a government entity never even took possession of the firearms.

18 USC 925 is pretty clear regarding the exceptions to 18 USC 922.

If you've got actual duty use (or just acquisition with the sole intent of duty use), it's legit.

There are some specific guidelines too. The acquisition cannot be with the intent of resale. That's pretty standard language in an IOP letter, even for Title I firearms.

I checked case law on this, spoke to ATF, all that due diligence stuff. Another guy asked an NFA supervisor at SHOT a couple years ago and was given the same info.

It's not a new technique, just uncommon knowledge.

Off topic, but I drove my agencies Bearcat for the first time the other day.  Drove well for such a heavy truck. Reminds me of driving a fire truck or ambulance, just heavier.  The Bearcat felt like it "floats" a little more.   It overall, it drove well.

Nice score OP.

First off, for liability sakes I'd push for them to send you to armorer training.  We all know AR work isn't rocket science but it isn't very expensive and at least if something breaks it won't be all on you.  Our (fed) policy requires it.  Sully runs a good class and puts on a bunch around the country.

I've upgraded several dozen A1's and A2's.  It sounds like you're familiar with the meticulous record keeping necessary.  I'd recommend you procure a roll of painters tape, a sharpie and a secure location.  Everything that you pull off gets labeled and secured - away from prying eyes and greedy fingers.  Of course you don't need to label S/N's on stock bodies and shit but at least labeled as needed to ensure they get put back together somewhat correctly.

The first group of 30 some guns I did - due to lack of funding - I had to piecemeal everything together.  I would advise against this.  I switched out triangle for fat A2 handguards.  Then a few years later upgraded to drop in pic rails and after a few other upgrades found myself with a rapidly growing pile of old, useless parts.

The second go around, I was able to get an M-4 "upgrade" kit direct from Colt.  Kind of expensive but my Chief at the time was satisfied with the quality of the parts.

The third batch I did BCM upgrade parts.  They didn't give me much of a quantity discount but their stuff is still going strong.

The forth batch I said screw it and bought 6920's for less than $800 and was done with it.  

The worst experience I had was showing up at Great Smoky Mountains NP and being handed a bunch of sweet Air Force A2's and a box of Tapco receiver extension kits .

I wouldn’t go NFA because I don’t want to mess with some of the regulations. We live, literally, a healthy spit from PA. Woods walks and shooting forays sometimes end up in PA, as well as going to visit family. I don’t want to have to deal with the whole transporting across state lines thing with NFA. I know, one letter once a year, but my memory is shit and I’ll end up forgetting.

Also, out chief is a straight up, by the book guy. Although what you outline is perfectly legal, I highly doubt he’d agree to it. Hell, when we ordered a few Glock parts last year, he refused to sign off on a “-“ connector. I told him it was for me, told him I’d cut him a check for it before even ordering the parts and that it was perfectly legal, Glock just had the sign off thing because they really don’t want them in duty guns. Mine wasn’t going in a duty gun, strictly a range gun. No big deal to me, I’m fine with a pistol and not having to deal with NFA anyway.

thanks, I will check that out

Yeah, that's a shame those parts have to be stored forever now.   For the value of the A1 upper, stock and handguards brand new 10.3"-16" barrels, 4 position collapsible stocks and a decent tac light can be installed