The ATF re-ruling was dated December 13 2006 on their website. Your 12 page letter of reconsideration regarding the Akins Accelerator sent to the BATF on February 6, 2007 from Steven Halbrook (Attorney for the Akins Group) where it states "Trigger Activators are a commercially-produced firearm accessory known by various names as  "Tac Trigger," "Auto-burst," "Auto-burst II" depending on who the manufacture is. They are in fact a legal device, and what they do is the attach to the trigger of a firearm, and there are various springs involved with small powerful spring that force the trigger back to the forward position, meaning that you have to separately pull the trigger each time you want to fire the gun. but it gives the illusion of functioning as a machinegun." According to what your attorney wrote in responce to the BATF re-ruling, would sugest that the Trigger Devices are still legal.

Quoted: Quoted: The hellfire and tac trigger rapid fire devices are marketed machine guns that are not machine guns. They do the exact same thing mine did except that mine was in a stationary stock.    The difference between Bump Firing, and your Accellerator is you still have to know how to "Bumpfire" in order to get the Tac Trigger/ Hell Fire/ or my rubber band assisted bumpfire technique to work. If the shooter doesn't know how to bump fire his gun then these devices won't work. The Hellfire devices were marketed to make "money". What they didn't tell you was that they would only work on guns that could be bump fired without any assistance from any device. That is why most people will say they are crap and don't work. The gunshop I used to work at had one of you Accellerators in our rental program. Your stock "Functions Automatically" requiring no instructions on how to get it to do what it does. The stock you invented takes the Technique out of bumpfiring.     When I started my website www.poormans-machinegun.com I submited a letter asking the BATF FTB to define the term "Bump-Fire", a copy of their responce can be seen here. www.poormans-machinegun.com/atf%20letter.JPG Quoted:       If you have read the BATFE ruling you know that by its wording specifics it bans not only my accelerator, but also the hellfire and tac trigger and any semi automatic that is capable of bumpfiring.     I have read the BATF ruling 4 times reguarding the accellerator, and it mentions nothing about the Hellfire devices being illegal now. By all means please point the text of this to back up your statement. size=2]

Gee, what does that say Bill???

"As long as you must consciously pull the trigger for each shot of the "bump fire" operation, you are simply firing a semiautomatic weapon in rapid manner..."

Quoted: The wording of the illegal 2006-02 ruling bans the hellfire, tac trigger, my device and the process of bumpfiring itself plus any weapon capable of bumpfiring.

Not even close.

Your device is banned because of the spring that stores recoil energy and converts it forward energy, thus allowing the trigger to be re-initiated automatically. Bump-firing does not work like that. The Operator must consciously control recoil and "push" the gun forward to re-initiate the firing sequence.

From the Halbrook letter only the spring needed to be removed in order to be in compliance.

Quoted: Quoted: It's an argument of semantics I've fired one, a local range had one as a rental.  You only consciously pull the trigger once, and the machine does the rest of the work. Yes, that's my understanding. The device may not follow the spirit of the law, but it does follow the letter.

But how many rounds.. Article says 700/min they dont say how many it holds..

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It's an argument of semantics I've fired one, a local range had one as a rental.  You only consciously pull the trigger once, and the machine does the rest of the work. Yes, that's my understanding. The device may not follow the spirit of the law, but it does follow the letter. But how many rounds.. Article says 700/min they dont say how many it holds..

Host weapon for the Akins stock is a 10/22... so whatever 10/22 mags you have.

I can't actually believe some of the shit I'm reading here. It's true, gun owners are our own worst enemies.

You two Dave guys ought to be ashamed of yourselves. You didn't, couldn't or wouldn't do what Mr Akins did, yet you feel free to come and tell him how he should have done it and what he should or should not have have charged for his efforts. You even threaten him to infringe on his patent because you think he charges too much for his device.

Sheesh, ten years ago. when I got here, I was told that America was the land of the free. Home of capitalism. Mr Akins seems to exemplify that. He designed and built a product and brought it to market. As I understand the system, he is entitled to decide the price for his product. If people don't like the price, they don't buy the product, if they do then they buy it.

I also understand the 1st amendment, which I'm sure you'll bring up when I diss you. You have every right to say what you want about Mr Akins and his product and his pricing. That's your right....BUT..and let me digress here a little, people with manners and honor don't just denigrate others because they don't agree with them. They also don't threaten to cause them financial harm behind the safety of a keyboard when they have no real intention of doing so.

So no, you sit at home, happily laughing behind your computer screen that the .gov has done what you didn't have the balls to do, shut him down. Except that the ATF did it under the color of law, while you merely postulated that you could do it under the guise of competition. But meanwhile, you intimated you would steal his work.

While the fact that you intimated you would steal another mans hard work just to ruin him is reprehensible, what is even more reprehensible is the fact the ATF did it under color of law. And even more reprehensible, is the fact any firearms owner would take glee in that. I am ashamed of anyone who does. Utterly ashamed.

Oh ya. The 2nd amendment. Nevermind all the other stuff. You and anyone like you who thinks what you do, is being intellectually dishonest when you side with the ATF. Sure, you were right. The ATF shut him down. Wow, kudos to all of you who predicted  it and are now saying I told you so. Man you are so smart I just want to bow down and say .... well I don't know what because I ain't that smart.

Tell ya what I do know though. The villain here isn't mr Akins. It's the ATF and guys like you Dave. Some of us know why the ATF is a villain but I'll tell you why you are Dave.

You are like the Fudds. yep, just like a Fudd. You have you own version of firearms ownership and guns and Mr Akins didn't fit it so you were willing to throw him under the bus just like Zumbo did to us. Yep, Dave, you should change your name to "the other Zumbo." You're a Zumbo.

Here's a little advice: Build yourself up instead of tearing others down.

Quoted: The ruling is long, but to summarize it and what they interpret to be illegal, they say...."Once the trigger is "pulled" it initiates a sequence of automatic fire that continues until the finger is removed or the magazine is empty." With my device the finger is COMPLETELY removed from the trigger for each shot. With the hellfire and tac trigger your finger RIDES the trigger and never completely disengages from it even though the trigger resets. However my device and the others all allow the trigger to reset and function separately for each shot.

When I am shooting my Smith & Wesson 442 revolver my finger RIDES the trigger and never completely disengages from it even though the trigger resets too, does that mean my wheel gun is potentally a Machine gun?

Quoted: Quoted: The ruling is long, but to summarize it and what they interpret to be illegal, they say...."Once the trigger is "pulled" it initiates a sequence of automatic fire that continues until the finger is removed or the magazine is empty." With my device the finger is COMPLETELY removed from the trigger for each shot. With the hellfire and tac trigger your finger RIDES the trigger and never completely disengages from it even though the trigger resets. However my device and the others all allow the trigger to reset and function separately for each shot. When I am shooting my Smith & Wesson 442 revolver my finger RIDES the trigger and never completely disengages from it even though the trigger resets too, does that mean my wheel gun is potentally a Machine gun?

I vote this dumbest post in this thread.

Quoted: I can't actually believe some of the shit I'm reading here. It's true, gun owners are our own worst enemies. You two Dave guys ought to be ashamed of yourselves. You didn't, couldn't or wouldn't do what Mr Akins did, yet you feel free to come and tell him how he should have done it and what he should or should not have have charged for his efforts. You even threaten him to infringe on his patent because you think he charges too much for his device. Sheesh, ten years ago. when I got here, I was told that America was the land of the free. Home of capitalism. Mr Akins seems to exemplify that. He designed and built a product and brought it to market. As I understand the system, he is entitled to decide the price for his product. If people don't like the price, they don't buy the product, if they do then they buy it. I also understand the 1st amendment, which I'm sure you'll bring up when I diss you. You have every right to say what you want about Mr Akins and his product and his pricing. That's your right....BUT..and let me digress here a little, people with manners and honor don't just denigrate others because they don't agree with them. They also don't threaten to cause them financial harm behind the safety of a keyboard when they have no real intention of doing so. So no, you sit at home, happily laughing behind your computer screen that the .gov has done what you didn't have the balls to do, shut him down. Except that the ATF did it under the color of law, while you merely postulated that you could do it under the guise of competition. But meanwhile, you intimated you would steal his work. While the fact that you intimated you would steal another mans hard work just to ruin him is reprehensible, what is even more reprehensible is the fact the ATF did it under color of law. And even more reprehensible, is the fact any firearms owner would take glee in that. I am ashamed of anyone who does. Utterly ashamed. Oh ya. The 2nd amendment. Nevermind all the other stuff. You and anyone like you who thinks what you do, is being intellectually dishonest when you side with the ATF. Sure, you were right. The ATF shut him down. Wow, kudos to all of you who predicted  it and are now saying I told you so. Man you are so smart I just want to bow down and say .... well I don't know what because I ain't that smart. Tell ya what I do know though. The villain here isn't mr Akins. It's the ATF and guys like you Dave. Some of us know why the ATF is a villain but I'll tell you why you are Dave. You are like the Fudds. yep, just like a Fudd. You have you own version of firearms ownership and guns and Mr Akins didn't fit it so you were willing to throw him under the bus just like Zumbo did to us. Yep, Dave, you should change your name to "the other Zumbo." You're a Zumbo. Here's a little advice: Build yourself up instead of tearing others down.

Quoted: The ATF re-ruling was dated December 13 2006 on their website. Your 12 page letter of reconsideration regarding the Akins Accelerator sent to the BATF on February 6, 2007 from Steven Halbrook (Attorney for the Akins Group) where it states "Trigger Activators are a commercially-produced firearm accessory known by various names as  "Tac Trigger," "Auto-burst," "Auto-burst II" depending on who the manufacture is. They are in fact a legal device, and what they do is the attach to the trigger of a firearm, and there are various springs involved with small powerful spring that force the trigger back to the forward position, meaning that you have to separately pull the trigger each time you want to fire the gun. but it gives the illusion of functioning as a machinegun." According to what your attorney wrote in responce to the BATF re-ruling, would sugest that the Trigger Devices are still legal.

Stephen Halbrook's position was that the hellfire and tac trigger devices are legal just as his position was that my accelerator device is legal also. To use your own words but apply them to my device.....According to what our attorney wrote in response to the BATFE re-ruling, would suggest that the hellfire, tac trigger and Akins accelerator are ALL still legal.

But the BATFE disagrees with Halbrook that my device is legal. Therefore you cannot assume that Halbrooks opinion of the legality of my device or the hellfire and tac trigger means anything to the BATFE who makes up whatever they want and arbitrarily and illegally makes regulatory rulings in complete contradiction of Federal firearms law.

In short, Halbrook's opinion only counts if the BATFE agrees with it or if a court agrees with it.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The hellfire and tac trigger rapid fire devices are marketed machine guns that are not machine guns. They do the exact same thing mine did except that mine was in a stationary stock.    The difference between Bump Firing, and your Accellerator is you still have to know how to "Bumpfire" in order to get the Tac Trigger/ Hell Fire/ or my rubber band assisted bumpfire technique to work. If the shooter doesn't know how to bump fire his gun then these devices won't work. The Hellfire devices were marketed to make "money". What they didn't tell you was that they would only work on guns that could be bump fired without any assistance from any device. That is why most people will say they are crap and don't work. The gunshop I used to work at had one of you Accellerators in our rental program. Your stock "Functions Automatically" requiring no instructions on how to get it to do what it does. The stock you invented takes the Technique out of bumpfiring.     When I started my website www.poormans-machinegun.com I submited a letter asking the BATF FTB to define the term "Bump-Fire", a copy of their responce can be seen here. www.poormans-machinegun.com/atf%20letter.JPG Quoted:       If you have read the BATFE ruling you know that by its wording specifics it bans not only my accelerator, but also the hellfire and tac trigger and any semi automatic that is capable of bumpfiring.     I have read the BATF ruling 4 times reguarding the accellerator, and it mentions nothing about the Hellfire devices being illegal now. By all means please point the text of this to back up your statement. size=2] Gee, what does that say Bill??? "As long as you must consciously pull the trigger for each shot of the "bump fire" operation, you are simply firing a semiautomatic weapon in rapid manner..."

I see what it says, it says....""As long as you must consciously pull the trigger for each shot of the "bump fire" operation, you are simply firing a semiautomatic weapon in rapid manner..."

That is what BATFE is saying. What the BATFE says is not Federal law. Here is what Federal llaw says.....""NATIONAL FIREARM'S ACT TITLE 26, UNITED STATES CODE, CHAPTER 53, SECTION 5845B
The term machinegun means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person."

Now THAT is what Federal law says.

Quoted: Quoted: The wording of the illegal 2006-02 ruling bans the hellfire, tac trigger, my device and the process of bumpfiring itself plus any weapon capable of bumpfiring. Not even close. Your device is banned because of the spring that stores recoil energy and converts it forward energy, thus allowing the trigger to be re-initiated automatically. Bump-firing does not work like that. The Operator must consciously control recoil and "push" the gun forward to re-initiate the firing sequence. From the Halbrook letter only the spring needed to be removed in order to be in compliance.

Once again, the word "consciously" does not occur regarding the trigger in Federal law. This is something the BATFE made up. Federal law only requires the trigger to be "functioned" separately for each shot. Nothing is said in Federal law about the trigger being "consciously functioned".

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The wording of the illegal 2006-02 ruling bans the hellfire, tac trigger, my device and the process of bumpfiring itself plus any weapon capable of bumpfiring. Not even close. Your device is banned because of the spring that stores recoil energy and converts it forward energy, thus allowing the trigger to be re-initiated automatically. Bump-firing does not work like that. The Operator must consciously control recoil and "push" the gun forward to re-initiate the firing sequence. From the Halbrook letter only the spring needed to be removed in order to be in compliance. Once again, the word "consciously" does not occur regarding the trigger in Federal law. This is something the BATFE made up. Federal law only requires the trigger to be "functioned" separately for each shot. Nothing is said in Federal law about the trigger being "consciously functioned".

Yes, but Federal law is antiquated and is not reliable indicator of what is legal or illegal.  Case Law is. What does Case Law say? Did your lawyers research that? I am sure it has come before the court. I did see ATF relied on Congress hearings in 1934 to come up with the "One Pull of Trigger" rule.

It all is a bunch of bullshit.

In a semi the trigger is pulled the hammer is released and a round is fired. If the trigger is not released the disconnector catches the hammer and until the trigger is reset by being released to allow the disconnect to drop the hammer to the trigger and the trigger must function again to fire another round.

It doesn't matter if your finger rides on the trigger when it resets, or the trigger moves away from your finger it resets and when it returns to normal position your finger causes another function of the trigger.

In a machine gun the trigger never resets, only one trigger function took place.

Even with the shoe string machine gun, the trigger resets and functioned every time a round is fired.


They (BATF) are fucking with us, and will soon find a way to remove semi weapons from us.      

It is just so brutally sad we have people here arguing BATFE's side when it's obvious, nevermind semantics, even though that is what law is. Semantics.

The law is on Mr Akins side. "One function of the trigger."

Why do you all so want to be right just to make him wrong? Why don't we all get on the same side and support him because we are all really on the same side?

Shame on you all. Mr Akins is NOT the villain here.

Mr Akins, I will be with you when we meet with Ginny.

Quoted: It all is a bunch of bullshit. In a semi the trigger is pulled the hammer is released and a round is fired. If the trigger is not released the disconnector catches the hammer and until the trigger is reset by being released to allow the disconnect to drop the hammer to the trigger and the trigger must function again to fire another round. It doesn't matter if your finger rides on the trigger when it resets, or the trigger moves away from your finger it resets and when it returns to normal position your finger causes another function of the trigger. In a machine gun the trigger never resets, only one trigger function took place. Even with the shoe string machine gun, the trigger resets and functioned every time a round is fired. They (BATF) are fucking with us, and will soon find a way to remove semi weapons from us.

Keep the pissing match going, and some day you will be giving up everything but pump, lever, bolt action and single fire arms. Later they will come for them.    

It's as bad as some of you saying if you hold a AR pistol buffer tube to your shoulder and shoot it, it becomes a SBR.            


What about a bump stick, you finger never touches the trigger, does that make your pistol or rifle a maching gun?      

Quoted: Quoted: It all is a bunch of bullshit. In a semi the trigger is pulled the hammer is released and a round is fired. If the trigger is not released the disconnector catches the hammer and until the trigger is reset by being released to allow the disconnect to drop the hammer to the trigger and the trigger must function again to fire another round. It doesn't matter if your finger rides on the trigger when it resets, or the trigger moves away from your finger it resets and when it returns to normal position your finger causes another function of the trigger. In a machine gun the trigger never resets, only one trigger function took place. Even with the shoe string machine gun, the trigger resets and functioned every time a round is fired. They (BATF) are fucking with us, and will soon find a way to remove semi weapons from us.       Keep the pissing match going, and some day you will be giving up everything but pump, lever, bolt action and single fire arms. Later they will come for them.     It's as bad as some of you saying if you hold a AR pistol buffer tube to your shoulder and shoot it, it becomes a SBR.             What about a bump stick, you finger never touches the trigger, does that make your pistol or rifle a maching gun?

We are are own worst enemies. These people are all Zumbos willing to throw anyone under the bus just to argue semantics.

At this point, we should all be banding together.

Quoted: Quoted: The ruling is long, but to summarize it and what they interpret to be illegal, they say...."Once the trigger is "pulled" it initiates a sequence of automatic fire that continues until the finger is removed or the magazine is empty." With my device the finger is COMPLETELY removed from the trigger for each shot. With the hellfire and tac trigger your finger RIDES the trigger and never completely disengages from it even though the trigger resets. However my device and the others all allow the trigger to reset and function separately for each shot. When I am shooting my Smith & Wesson 442 revolver my finger RIDES the trigger and never completely disengages from it even though the trigger resets too, does that mean my wheel gun is potentally a Machine gun?

No it doesn't because according to the BATFE ruling once you "pull" the trigger it does not initiate a sequence of automatic fire that continues until the finger is removed or the magazine is empty. But let me postulate this for you. Suppose you had a revolver like the old WW1 Webley Fosberry double action semi automatic revolver. Now suppose unlike that revolver your semi automatic revolver's trigger also recoiled with the cylinder and barrel assembly, which would mean the trigger would recoil away from your finger just like in my accelerator stock.

Now you would have a revolver that according to this illegal BATFE ruling #2006-02 that would be declared a machine gun by BATFE.

TAG

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The wording of the illegal 2006-02 ruling bans the hellfire, tac trigger, my device and the process of bumpfiring itself plus any weapon capable of bumpfiring. Not even close. Your device is banned because of the spring that stores recoil energy and converts it forward energy, thus allowing the trigger to be re-initiated automatically. Bump-firing does not work like that. The Operator must consciously control recoil and "push" the gun forward to re-initiate the firing sequence. From the Halbrook letter only the spring needed to be removed in order to be in compliance. Once again, the word "consciously" does not occur regarding the trigger in Federal law. This is something the BATFE made up. Federal law only requires the trigger to be "functioned" separately for each shot. Nothing is said in Federal law about the trigger being "consciously functioned". Yes, but Federal law is antiquated and is not reliable indicator of what is legal or illegal.  Case Law is. What does Case Law say? Did your lawyers research that? I am sure it has come before the court. I did see ATF relied on Congress hearings in 1934 to come up with the "One Pull of Trigger" rule.

And our attorney Halbrook relied on those same 1934 hearings to refute the BATFE's contention that the 1934 Congressional hearings equates "pull" to mean the same as "function". Of course our lawyer researched case law. There is no case law that changes or contradicts the one shot for each single "function" of the trigger Federal law. If there were, the hellfire and tac trigger would never have been approved. As far as I know there is also no case law requiring a "conscious" functioning of the trigger. Take your 22 caliber semi auto outside. Now load and chamber it and point it vertically towards the ground and loosely support it so it doesn't move around. Now place your finger against the trigger and let the gun fire due to gravity pulling the trigger against your finger. The recoil will bumpfire the gun without you "consciously" pulling the gun forward as you would normally be doing with horizontal bump firing. Now the 22 is dancing up and down on your finger bumpfiring downward without any "conscious trigger pulling" or "conscious" pulling forward by your left hand on the forearm on your part whatsoever. Does this make your 22 a machine gun? The BATFE ruling's wording says it does. You aren't "consciously" pulling the trigger are you?  No, gravity is and you are guilty according to the BATFE ruling of having a weapon or device that once you first "consciously" "pull" the trigger (by releasing it and letting gravity and recoil take over) it initiates a sequence of automatic fire that continues until the finger is removed or the magazine is empty aren't you? See how the BATFE ruling outlaws bump firing and your semi auto 22 with this ruling even if they do not selectively enforce it? So much for the BATFE made up garbage about "consciously" "pulling" the trigger when neither "consciously" nor "pull" either one are words used in the Federal firearms law. So let's dispense with this "conscious" "pull"of the trigger debate. My above vertical bumpfiring description should put an end to that contention.

Quoted: It all is a bunch of bullshit. In a semi the trigger is pulled the hammer is released and a round is fired. If the trigger is not released the disconnector catches the hammer and until the trigger is reset by being released to allow the disconnect to drop the hammer to the trigger and the trigger must function again to fire another round. It doesn't matter if your finger rides on the trigger when it resets, or the trigger moves away from your finger it resets and when it returns to normal position your finger causes another function of the trigger. In a machine gun the trigger never resets, only one trigger function took place. Even with the shoe string machine gun, the trigger resets and functioned every time a round is fired. They (BATF) are fucking with us, and will soon find a way to remove semi weapons from us.

Thank you very much. Finally, a gentleman who understands and grasps the mechanical concept and law being violated concerning them exactly correctly.

Quoted: It is just so brutally sad we have people here arguing BATFE's side when it's obvious, nevermind semantics, even though that is what law is. Semantics. The law is on Mr Akins side. "One function of the trigger." Why do you all so want to be right just to make him wrong? Why don't we all get on the same side and support him because we are all really on the same side? Shame on you all. Mr Akins is NOT the villain here. Mr Akins, I will be with you when we meet with Ginny.

Thanks CaptainPooby. Your rational logic and reason are refreshing compared to what I have been hearing a lot of here. I will let you know when I get the appointment set up with Congresswoman Ginny Brown Waite.

Quoted: We are are own worst enemies. These people are all Zumbos willing to throw anyone under the bus just to argue semantics. At this point, we should all be banding together.

No... we have one person who insists they are special, and the law as applied does not apply to them.

And yes, it's arguing semantics, as semantics is the difference between freedom and a conviction.

Quoted: Quoted: We are are own worst enemies. These people are all Zumbos willing to throw anyone under the bus just to argue semantics. At this point, we should all be banding together. No... we have one person who insists they are special, and the law as applied does not apply to them. And yes, it's arguing semantics, as semantics is the difference between freedom and a conviction.

Ah,  now you assume to know what my thoughts are and that I think I'm special.
I don't think I'm special, but the BATFE must think I am, because the "law" as you put it which is not a law at all but an agency ruling, is not being "applied" to me or else my device as with the hellfire and tac trigger would be recognized as being one shot for each separate function of the trigger and would be left alone by the BATFE. There is no law being "applied" here unless it is a application of a violation of Federal firearms law by the BATFE.

I guess all the other FFL's and other people like Len Savage and Ryan Horsley who have been singled out and unfairly and illegally treated to the BATFE abuse of power all think they are special too huh? I guess by your reasoning anyone who talks about how they have been illegally and unfairly treated by the BATFE thinks they are "special". So no one should tell their experiences and inform and warn the public about BATFE abuse of law and power or else you will criticize them and say they think they are special.

You certainly seem to be defending the BATFE on this. How long have you been working there? Because you certainly seem to be working for them here.

Quoted: I can't actually believe some of the shit I'm reading here. It's true, gun owners are our own worst enemies. You two Dave guys ought to be ashamed of yourselves. You didn't, couldn't or wouldn't do what Mr Akins did, yet you feel free to come and tell him how he should have done it and what he should or should not have have charged for his efforts. You even threaten him to infringe on his patent because you think he charges too much for his device. Sheesh, ten years ago. when I got here, I was told that America was the land of the free. Home of capitalism. Mr Akins seems to exemplify that. He designed and built a product and brought it to market. As I understand the system, he is entitled to decide the price for his product. If people don't like the price, they don't buy the product, if they do then they buy it. I also understand the 1st amendment, which I'm sure you'll bring up when I diss you. You have every right to say what you want about Mr Akins and his product and his pricing. That's your right....BUT..and let me digress here a little, people with manners and honor don't just denigrate others because they don't agree with them. They also don't threaten to cause them financial harm behind the safety of a keyboard when they have no real intention of doing so. So no, you sit at home, happily laughing behind your computer screen that the .gov has done what you didn't have the balls to do, shut him down. Except that the ATF did it under the color of law, while you merely postulated that you could do it under the guise of competition. But meanwhile, you intimated you would steal his work. While the fact that you intimated you would steal another mans hard work just to ruin him is reprehensible, what is even more reprehensible is the fact the ATF did it under color of law. And even more reprehensible, is the fact any firearms owner would take glee in that. I am ashamed of anyone who does. Utterly ashamed. Oh ya. The 2nd amendment. Nevermind all the other stuff. You and anyone like you who thinks what you do, is being intellectually dishonest when you side with the ATF. Sure, you were right. The ATF shut him down. Wow, kudos to all of you who predicted  it and are now saying I told you so. Man you are so smart I just want to bow down and say .... well I don't know what because I ain't that smart. Tell ya what I do know though. The villain here isn't mr Akins. It's the ATF and guys like you Dave. Some of us know why the ATF is a villain but I'll tell you why you are Dave. You are like the Fudds. yep, just like a Fudd. You have you own version of firearms ownership and guns and Mr Akins didn't fit it so you were willing to throw him under the bus just like Zumbo did to us. Yep, Dave, you should change your name to "the other Zumbo." You're a Zumbo. Here's a little advice: Build yourself up instead of tearing others down.

You didn't read what I wrote in those posts either.

You are correct, people are in fact allowed to charge whatever they feel the market will bear for their products in a free market society. But, the people they are selling to are also free to form opinions about the company making that product. No matter how you slice it Pooby, Akins and his 'group' relied on the fact that he had a captive audience, a captive audience that was in that position because of unfair and constitutional laws. You never saw Bill Akins bellyaching here on ARFCOM about ATF abuse of the second amendment until he was compelled by ATF to cease operations. Now that he got screwed by the laws that screw us he wants to come to us, comiserate, make sure we know that the ATF screws gun owners (as if we don't already live that nightmare, Bill) and cry on our shoulders.

I think he got screwed. No doubt. Do I feel for the people that bought, or may have wanted to buy his invention? Yes. Do I feel sorry for him? No way.

Brow-beat me all you want, it won't change what he did or my opinion of it.

Dave

Quoted: Quoted: The hellfire and tac trigger rapid fire devices are marketed machine guns that are not machine guns. They do the exact same thing mine did except that mine was in a stationary stock.    The difference between Bump Firing, and your Accellerator is you still have to know how to "Bumpfire" in order to get the Tac Trigger/ Hell Fire/ or my rubber band assisted bumpfire technique to work. If the shooter doesn't know how to bump fire his gun then these devices won't work. The Hellfire devices were marketed to make "money". What they didn't tell you was that they would only work on guns that could be bump fired without any assistance from any device. That is why most people will say they are crap and don't work. The gunshop I used to work at had one of you Accellerators in our rental program. Your stock "Functions Automatically" requiring no instructions on how to get it to do what it does. The stock you invented takes the Technique out of bumpfiring.     When I started my website www.poormans-machinegun.com I submited a letter asking the BATF FTB to define the term "Bump-Fire", a copy of their responce can be seen here. www.poormans-machinegun.com/atf%20letter.JPG Quoted:       If you have read the BATFE ruling you know that by its wording specifics it bans not only my accelerator, but also the hellfire and tac trigger and any semi automatic that is capable of bumpfiring.     I have read the BATF ruling 4 times reguarding the accellerator, and it mentions nothing about the Hellfire devices being illegal now. By all means please point the text of this to back up your statement. size=2]

NineMMAR15, would you please e mail me a full size copy of that letter. I want to use it for posting at a website to show how the BATFE has made up a requirement that clearly violates Federal law in that they now say you must "consciously" "pull" (not function) a trigger. Also their letter states installing tac, hellfire or hellstorm triggers would constitute a machine gun, yet they have not banned those devices. Go to this below link at Reds Trading Post and read my open letter to Americans there and you will see that I have posted a link to your poor mans machine gun site for readers to better inform themselves as to what "bumpfiring" means. Again, I'd appreciate a full size copy of that letter.

Here's that link redstradingpost.blogspot.com/

My e mail is
[email protected]

Quoted: NineMMAR15, would you please e mail me a full size copy of that letter. I want to use it for posting at a website to show how the BATFE has made up a requirement that clearly violates Federal law in that they now say you must "consciously" "pull" (not function) a trigger. Also their letter states installing tac, hellfire or hellstorm triggers would constitute a machine gun, yet they have not banned those devices. Go to this below link at Reds Trading Post and read my open letter to Americans there and you will see that I have posted a link to your poor mans machine gun site for readers to better inform themselves as to what "bumpfiring" means. Again, I'd appreciate a full size copy of that letter. Here's that link redstradingpost.blogspot.com/ My e mail is [email protected]

Bill, you do know that BATFE letters only apply to the person they are addressed to, right?

..."Consciously pull the trigger for each shot".  This is BS.  I have bump fired and dumped an entire mag in less than 3 seconds.  I was not consciously pulling the trigger for each shot.  Hell, I couldn't even count the rounds.

Quoted: NineMMAR15, would you please e mail me a full size copy of that letter. I want to use it for posting at a website to show how the BATFE has made up a requirement that clearly violates Federal law in that they now say you must "consciously" "pull" (not function) a trigger. Also their letter states installing tac, hellfire or hellstorm triggers would constitute a machine gun, yet they have not banned those devices. Go to this below link at Reds Trading Post and read my open letter to Americans there and you will see that I have posted a link to your poor mans machine gun site for readers to better inform themselves as to what "bumpfiring" means. Again, I'd appreciate a full size copy of that letter. Here's that link redstradingpost.blogspot.com/ My e mail is [email protected]

Bill you are adding things to their statement just like they did! Their letter states "installing Tac, Hellfire, or Hellstorm triggers; or attaching rubber bands to trigger to facilitate easier "bump-fire" operations, you should be aware that any modification which permit a weapon to fire automatically more than one shot with a single function of the trigger could result in that weapon being defined as a Machinegun."

I must be blind because I don't see anything in the 2006-02 BATFE ruling how you could speculate that TAC TRIGGER and other such devices are subject to the ruling that specifically mentions and describes your accelerator, however there is apart where The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has been asked by several members of the firearms industry to classify devices (Plural meaning more than one.) that are exclusively designed to increase the rate of fire of a semiautomatic firearm. The way I understand you sent in a stock that malfunctioned, and later one was submitted that worked. Because the  2006-02 BATFE ruling was not clear on what other devices they were talking about I would assume that they were ruling on the two accellerators that were submitted. I am composing yet another letter to the ATF FTB to hopefully clarify the bump-fire debate.

Quoted: And our attorney Halbrook relied on those same 1934 hearings to refute the BATFE's contention that the 1934 Congressional hearings equates "pull" to mean the same as "function". Of course our lawyer researched case law. There is no case law that changes or contradicts the one shot for each single "function" of the trigger Federal law.

Thanks for the answer.

somebody needs to put up a Wikipedia entry on this whole mess.  Damn I have been out of the loop since I never read the gun gadget stuff.

Best of luck, Bill.

Some of us understand exactly what's going on here, as you've seen.  Some don't, maybe they never will.

To those of you arguing with him, I present you with some perspective.  Bill's reasons for designing, manufacturing, and selling his product are irrelevant;  it doesn't matter if he did it to make a buck, to make a stand, or even just to make a point.

All that's relevant is that he was in full compliance with the law, as were all his customers, but his product has been singled out in a unilateral move by a government agency which is almost impossible to fight and even harder to defeat.  The BATFE answers to nobody, at least not until the smoke has long cleared and they can say "oops, we messed up" long after all the damage has been done.

The only questions that should be on your minds are:

1.  What are they (BATFE) going to try to pull next?

and

2.  What can I do to put a stop to it.

You don't have to like Bill or agree with his personal reasons for engaging in the business, but you do have to detest what the BATFE has done here and be willing to do whatever you can to stop it, or we'll all suffer.  And it will be as much your fault as anyone elses.

Letter I am composing:

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Firearms Technology Branch 650 Massachusetts Avenue, NW. Room 6450 Washington, DC 20226 Dear Sir,        There has been a debate on several forums about the 2006-02 BATFE ruling regarding the Classification of Devices That are Exclusively Designed to Increase the Rate of Fire of a Semi-automatic Firearm. The text of this ruling would indicate that the FTB was referring to the device know as the Akins Accelerator. Live-fire testing of this device demonstrated that a single pull of the trigger initiates an automatic firing cycle which continues until the finger is released or the ammunition supply is exhausted.         Several other devices have been invented to assist in the technique of “bump-firing” such as Tac Triggers, Hell Fire Triggers, or adding rubber bands by means of assisting the firearms trigger to reset quicker effectively making the trigger harder to pull. A 2003 letter of opinion summarized some of ATF's previous findings about the following, all of which were found NOT to be machinegun conversion parts: "We previously examined a device known as a HELLFIRE or A.S.IV consisting of a metal block that clamps to the trigger guard of a semiautomatic firearm and has a spring the applies pressure to the back of the trigger. The device merely acted as an auxiliary trigger return spring and did not change the mechanical functioning of the firearm.         With the hellfire device, a trigger stop and spring are used to vibrate the trigger against the trigger finger. A rhythm and loose grip are required. The device depends on a relatively stationary trigger finger and utilizes recoil and isometric tension to create movement of the counter recoiling rifle against the trigger finger to initiate a rapid succession of semiautomatic shots. This technique is known as "bump firing," as uses the forward isometric tension of the shooter's supporting hand to "bump" the trigger into the shooter's finger again after it recoils from the previous shot. The recoil is countered via isometric tension." The hell fire device has been advertised as being approved by the BATF for 20 year or more, and is still being sold at gun shop, and gun shows.          On October 13, 2006 I wrote the ATF FTB about the legality of “bump-fire” in which you responded that the term bump fire means: Rapid manual trigger manipulation to simulate automatic fire. The FTB also stated that "installing Tac, Hellfire, or Hell storm triggers; or attaching rubber bands to trigger to facilitate easier "bump-fire" operations, you should be aware that any modification which permit a weapon to fire automatically more than one shot with a single function of the trigger could result in that weapon being defined as a Machinegun.” A person can “bump-fire” most semi-automatic firearms without any of the devices mentioned in this paragraph, by means of counter acting the rearward recoil of a semi-automatic firearm by pulling the gun into the trigger finger. The Hell Fire, Hell Storm, and other devices do not function independently the shooter still has to know how to “Bump-Fire” his firearm in order for these devices to assist in the technique of bump-fire.                       What is the current opinion of the ATF FTB regarding the legality of the Hell Fire, Hell Storm, and other devices that only assist the manual technique of “Bump-firing” and are currently sold as a legal means of simulating a machine gun?

Any thoughts?

Quoted: Letter I am composing:   Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Firearms Technology Branch 650 Massachusetts Avenue, NW. Room 6450 Washington, DC 20226 Dear Sir, <snip> Any thoughts?

Throw the letter in the trash and forget about it. Nothing good ever came from a lay person sending a letter to the ATF for opinion. Experts have difficulty succeeding. Issues like this need to be carefully crafted based on research of precedents. This is a large Federal Bureaucracy and just because there is "debate on several forums" is not cause to ask them to step in and issue a ruling we may all regret later.

Quoted: Letter I am composing:   Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Firearms Technology Branch 650 Massachusetts Avenue, NW. Room 6450 Washington, DC 20226 Dear Sir,        There has been a debate on several forums about the 2006-02 BATFE ruling regarding the Classification of Devices That are Exclusively Designed to Increase the Rate of Fire of a Semi-automatic Firearm. The text of this ruling would indicate that the FTB was referring to the device know as the Akins Accelerator. Live-fire testing of this device demonstrated that a single pull of the trigger initiates an automatic firing cycle which continues until the finger is released or the ammunition supply is exhausted.         Several other devices have been invented to assist in the technique of “bump-firing” such as Tac Triggers, Hell Fire Triggers, or adding rubber bands by means of assisting the firearms trigger to reset quicker effectively making the trigger harder to pull. A 2003 letter of opinion summarized some of ATF's previous findings about the following, all of which were found NOT to be machinegun conversion parts: "We previously examined a device known as a HELLFIRE or A.S.IV consisting of a metal block that clamps to the trigger guard of a semiautomatic firearm and has a spring the applies pressure to the back of the trigger. The device merely acted as an auxiliary trigger return spring and did not change the mechanical functioning of the firearm.         With the hellfire device, a trigger stop and spring are used to vibrate the trigger against the trigger finger. A rhythm and loose grip are required. The device depends on a relatively stationary trigger finger and utilizes recoil and isometric tension to create movement of the counter recoiling rifle against the trigger finger to initiate a rapid succession of semiautomatic shots. This technique is known as "bump firing," as uses the forward isometric tension of the shooter's supporting hand to "bump" the trigger into the shooter's finger again after it recoils from the previous shot. The recoil is countered via isometric tension." The hell fire device has been advertised as being approved by the BATF for 20 year or more, and is still being sold at gun shop, and gun shows.          On October 13, 2006 I wrote the ATF FTB about the legality of “bump-fire” in which you responded that the term bump fire means: Rapid manual trigger manipulation to simulate automatic fire. The FTB also stated that "installing Tac, Hellfire, or Hell storm triggers; or attaching rubber bands to trigger to facilitate easier "bump-fire" operations, you should be aware that any modification which permit a weapon to fire automatically more than one shot with a single function of the trigger could result in that weapon being defined as a Machinegun.” A person can “bump-fire” most semi-automatic firearms without any of the devices mentioned in this paragraph, by means of counter acting the rearward recoil of a semi-automatic firearm by pulling the gun into the trigger finger. The Hell Fire, Hell Storm, and other devices do not function independently the shooter still has to know how to “Bump-Fire” his firearm in order for these devices to assist in the technique of bump-fire.                       What is the current opinion of the ATF FTB regarding the legality of the Hell Fire, Hell Storm, and other devices that only assist the manual technique of “Bump-firing” and are currently sold as a legal means of simulating a machine gun? Any thoughts?

They already have you on file. Get another computer match and just wait for your door to be kicked down at 3am.    

I would pefer to be unknown to them.          

Point noted, letter scraped.

Quoted: Quoted: Letter I am composing:   Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Firearms Technology Branch 650 Massachusetts Avenue, NW. Room 6450 Washington, DC 20226 Dear Sir, <snip> Any thoughts? Throw the letter in the trash and forget about it. Nothing good ever came from a lay person sending a letter to the ATF for opinion. Experts have difficulty succeeding. Issues like this need to be carefully crafted based on research of precedents. This is a large Federal Bureaucracy and just because there is "debate on several forums" is not cause to ask them to step in and issue a ruling we may all regret later.

Well, according to many people in this thread, it's perfectly OK for a non-involved person to send a letter or a firearm to ATF tech branch and get someone thrown under the bus.

I say send your letter and see if we can get the HellFire and Tac Trigger pulled off the market like Bill's device. Let's do it! After all, those devices make dangerous machine guns out of ordinary semi-auto guns.

Maybe if all those people get the same letter Bill's customers did, we'll have a different outcome.

Honestly, I don't think your letter is that extreme. I'd send it. ATF has written so many letters that contradict themselves, if it ever goes to court an honest judge will laugh at them.

Quoted: Quoted: NineMMAR15, would you please e mail me a full size copy of that letter. I want to use it for posting at a website to show how the BATFE has made up a requirement that clearly violates Federal law in that they now say you must "consciously" "pull" (not function) a trigger. Also their letter states installing tac, hellfire or hellstorm triggers would constitute a machine gun, yet they have not banned those devices. Go to this below link at Reds Trading Post and read my open letter to Americans there and you will see that I have posted a link to your poor mans machine gun site for readers to better inform themselves as to what "bumpfiring" means. Again, I'd appreciate a full size copy of that letter. Here's that link redstradingpost.blogspot.com/ My e mail is [email protected] Bill, you do know that BATFE letters only apply to the person they are addressed to, right?

Not exactly correct. Although the BATFE CLAIMS their classification letters are only good for the person they addressed it to, this has not been held by the courts to be actual law. Our attorney even told us that if challenged in court, the court may very likely find that it would be reasonable to assume that since the BATFE is the regulating agency for firearms, that classifies firearms, that it would not be unreasonable to assume that the exact same device or firearm that  would be approved and allowed by BATFE for one individual, would also be approved and allowed for another individual since to do otherwise would not be equal protection for all citizens under the law.

Quoted: Best of luck, Bill. Some of us understand exactly what's going on here, as you've seen.  Some don't, maybe they never will................................................................................................................................................................................................You don't have to like Bill or agree with his personal reasons for engaging in the business, but you do have to detest what the BATFE has done here and be willing to do whatever you can to stop it, or we'll all suffer.  And it will be as much your fault as anyone elses.

Exactly. The BATFE should have never said it would be OK.I may be a Johnny-come-lately to this particular debate , but the song remains the same.

What I REALLY fear (and maybe Ive missed it being mentioned in the past 6 pages or any other simmilar debates) is if we as gunowners keep using the same "I can bump fire any semi just like a machine gun" excuse,(to get 'devices' approved)how long before the BATFE shows up in a video on the 6 oclock news demonstrating this 'trick' and shows the world that ALL semis are potentially evil machine guns?


Best of luck with this,the ATF owe you BIG!!!!

Quoted: Best of luck, Bill. Some of us understand exactly what's going on here, as you've seen.  Some don't, maybe they never will. To those of you arguing with him, I present you with some perspective.  Bill's reasons for designing, manufacturing, and selling his product are irrelevant;  it doesn't matter if he did it to make a buck, to make a stand, or even just to make a point. All that's relevant is that he was in full compliance with the law, as were all his customers, but his product has been singled out in a unilateral move by a government agency which is almost impossible to fight and even harder to defeat.  The BATFE answers to nobody, at least not until the smoke has long cleared and they can say "oops, we messed up" long after all the damage has been done. The only questions that should be on your minds are: 1.  What are they (BATFE) going to try to pull next? and 2.  What can I do to put a stop to it. You don't have to like Bill or agree with his personal reasons for engaging in the business, but you do have to detest what the BATFE has done here and be willing to do whatever you can to stop it, or we'll all suffer.  And it will be as much your fault as anyone elses.

Thank you allenNH:. Another intelligent man who correctly grasps the situation.

Quoted: Letter I am composing:   Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Firearms Technology Branch 650 Massachusetts Avenue, NW. Room 6450 Washington, DC 20226 Dear Sir,        There has been a debate on several forums about the 2006-02 BATFE ruling regarding the Classification of Devices That are Exclusively Designed to Increase the Rate of Fire of a Semi-automatic Firearm. The text of this ruling would indicate that the FTB was referring to the device know as the Akins Accelerator. Live-fire testing of this device demonstrated that a single pull of the trigger initiates an automatic firing cycle which continues until the finger is released or the ammunition supply is exhausted.         Several other devices have been invented to assist in the technique of “bump-firing” such as Tac Triggers, Hell Fire Triggers, or adding rubber bands by means of assisting the firearms trigger to reset quicker effectively making the trigger harder to pull. A 2003 letter of opinion summarized some of ATF's previous findings about the following, all of which were found NOT to be machinegun conversion parts: "We previously examined a device known as a HELLFIRE or A.S.IV consisting of a metal block that clamps to the trigger guard of a semiautomatic firearm and has a spring the applies pressure to the back of the trigger. The device merely acted as an auxiliary trigger return spring and did not change the mechanical functioning of the firearm.         With the hellfire device, a trigger stop and spring are used to vibrate the trigger against the trigger finger. A rhythm and loose grip are required. The device depends on a relatively stationary trigger finger and utilizes recoil and isometric tension to create movement of the counter recoiling rifle against the trigger finger to initiate a rapid succession of semiautomatic shots. This technique is known as "bump firing," as uses the forward isometric tension of the shooter's supporting hand to "bump" the trigger into the shooter's finger again after it recoils from the previous shot. The recoil is countered via isometric tension." The hell fire device has been advertised as being approved by the BATF for 20 year or more, and is still being sold at gun shop, and gun shows.          On October 13, 2006 I wrote the ATF FTB about the legality of “bump-fire” in which you responded that the term bump fire means: Rapid manual trigger manipulation to simulate automatic fire. The FTB also stated that "installing Tac, Hellfire, or Hell storm triggers; or attaching rubber bands to trigger to facilitate easier "bump-fire" operations, you should be aware that any modification which permit a weapon to fire automatically more than one shot with a single function of the trigger could result in that weapon being defined as a Machinegun.” A person can “bump-fire” most semi-automatic firearms without any of the devices mentioned in this paragraph, by means of counter acting the rearward recoil of a semi-automatic firearm by pulling the gun into the trigger finger. The Hell Fire, Hell Storm, and other devices do not function independently the shooter still has to know how to “Bump-Fire” his firearm in order for these devices to assist in the technique of bump-fire.                       What is the current opinion of the ATF FTB regarding the legality of the Hell Fire, Hell Storm, and other devices that only assist the manual technique of “Bump-firing” and are currently sold as a legal means of simulating a machine gun? Any thoughts?

Yes I have a suggestion. Ask BATFE according to their 2006-02 ruling which states anything that does this to be a machine gun...."once the trigger is pulled it initiates a sequence of automatic fire which continues until the finger is removed or the magazine is empty." if that means if you dangle your ruger 10/22 on your finger vertically allowing gravity and recoil to bumpfire it and since it would fall directly into their 2006-02 ruling's wording, how does this NOT make your ruger 10/22 a machine gun since the wording says it does? Ask them that.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Letter I am composing:   Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Firearms Technology Branch 650 Massachusetts Avenue, NW. Room 6450 Washington, DC 20226 Dear Sir, <snip> Any thoughts? Throw the letter in the trash and forget about it. Nothing good ever came from a lay person sending a letter to the ATF for opinion. Experts have difficulty succeeding. Issues like this need to be carefully crafted based on research of precedents. This is a large Federal Bureaucracy and just because there is "debate on several forums" is not cause to ask them to step in and issue a ruling we may all regret later. Well, according to many people in this thread, it's perfectly OK for a non-involved person to send a letter or a firearm to ATF tech branch and get someone thrown under the bus. I say send your letter and see if we can get the HellFire and Tac Trigger pulled off the market like Bill's device. Let's do it! After all, those devices make dangerous machine guns out of ordinary semi-auto guns. Maybe if all those people get the same letter Bill's customers did, we'll have a different outcome. Honestly, I don't think your letter is that extreme. I'd send it. ATF has written so many letters that contradict themselves, if it ever goes to court an honest judge will laugh at them.

I agree CaptainPooby. After all, I've been told countless times and seen many posts encouraging people both here and at other forums that people had a RIGHT to send in another letter to get their own classification because supposedly (and people quote it as if it were law though it isn't) the BATFE approval letters are only good for who they are addressed to right? While you are at it, ask them if the wording of their ruling that describes what their NEWLY made up version of a machine gun is which says..."once the trigger is pulled, it initiates a sequence of automatic fire that continues until the finger is removed or the magazine is empty." if this means if you vertically bumpfire your ruger 10/22 by letting gravity and recoil operate it, if that means your ruger 10/22 is a machine gun because according to the wording of their 2006-02 ruling it says it is a machine gun because once you allow gravity to pull the trigger it initiates a sequence of automatic fire that continues until the finger is removed or the magazine is empty does it not?????

I saw posts here over a year ago encouraging people to send in for their own approval letters on my device. What is good for the goose is good for the gander isn't it readers??? Or is that only reserved to cause trouble for people that some think are greedy and taking advantage of a "captive"market that is not captive at all since people can buy many different kinds of rapid fire firearm devices besides mine or if they weren't so cheap and they wanted rapid fire they could buy a real machine gun instead of being so very cheap as to complain about my device which was a fraction of what a real mg cost. I know, maybe if I and other manufacturers who people complained about the price of our products just gave anyone who was too cheap to buy it but wanted to complain about it anyway, one for FREE, yeah that's the ticket, maybe then they won't illogically complain then and call us greedy and incorrectly state that they are a captive market when they could buy a bmf activator, hellfire, hellstorm, gat or tac trigger devices or even heavens forbid, a real machine gun proving they weren't a captive buying audience to me at all. In the future, all manufacturers should let uninformed, ignorant, patent infringing threatening, people who know nothing about their corporation or its costs, and who complain about their product's price, set the price for what they should sell their products for. After all those complaining people know best and that is the way to run a good business and free enterprise at work. I love it when illogic is so easily dispelled and exposed.

Quoted: Quoted: Best of luck, Bill. Some of us understand exactly what's going on here, as you've seen.  Some don't, maybe they never will................................................................................................................................................................................................You don't have to like Bill or agree with his personal reasons for engaging in the business, but you do have to detest what the BATFE has done here and be willing to do whatever you can to stop it, or we'll all suffer.  And it will be as much your fault as anyone elses. Exactly. The BATFE should have never said it would be OK.I may be a Johnny-come-lately to this particular debate , but the song remains the same. What I REALLY fear (and maybe Ive missed it being mentioned in the past 6 pages or any other simmilar debates) is if we as gunowners keep using the same "I can bump fire any semi just like a machine gun" excuse,(to get 'devices' approved)how long before the BATFE shows up in a video on the 6 oclock news demonstrating this 'trick' and shows the world that ALL semis are potentially evil machine guns? Best of luck with this,the ATF owe you BIG!!!!

Thanks ultramagbrion. Glad you see the situation correctly.

Good luck Bill, the GOON squad likes to use gestapo tactics hopefully some judge will bitch slap them down once and for all

Quoted: Thanks ultramagbrion. Glad you see the situation correctly.

My pleasure.................... I did notice a couple similar mentions of this back a couple pages(the second time round)
It makes me wonder just what you might be able to accomplish.................realistically.

A complete overhaul of the machinegun laws are what must happen.

Also....as a machinist myself,I understand (better than many)the $$$ it takes to take an item from idea to patented sellable merchandise. Youd sell a few hundred (maybe a couple thousand)if it flew but not to every homeowner.....yours is a niche market for sure.

I fear this will get much worse for you (and us) before it gets better.
I sent letters addresing ATF screwups to MI congressmen back when I lived there and was lucky to get the standard BS cover letters back

I truly wish you the best of luck.

Quoted: Quoted: NineMMAR15, would you please e mail me a full size copy of that letter. I want to use it for posting at a website to show how the BATFE has made up a requirement that clearly violates Federal law in that they now say you must "consciously" "pull" (not function) a trigger. Also their letter states installing tac, hellfire or hellstorm triggers would constitute a machine gun, yet they have not banned those devices. Go to this below link at Reds Trading Post and read my open letter to Americans there and you will see that I have posted a link to your poor mans machine gun site for readers to better inform themselves as to what "bumpfiring" means. Again, I'd appreciate a full size copy of that letter. Here's that link redstradingpost.blogspot.com/ My e mail is [email protected] Bill you are adding things to their statement just like they did! Their letter states "installing Tac, Hellfire, or Hellstorm triggers; or attaching rubber bands to trigger to facilitate easier "bump-fire" operations, you should be aware that any modification which permit a weapon to fire automatically more than one shot with a single function of the trigger could result in that weapon being defined as a Machinegun." I must be blind because I don't see anything in the 2006-02 BATFE ruling how you could speculate that TAC TRIGGER and other such devices are subject to the ruling that specifically mentions and describes your accelerator, however there is apart where The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has been asked by several members of the firearms industry to classify devices (Plural meaning more than one.) that are exclusively designed to increase the rate of fire of a semiautomatic firearm. The way I understand you sent in a stock that malfunctioned, and later one was submitted that worked. Because the  2006-02 BATFE ruling was not clear on what other devices they were talking about I would assume that they were ruling on the two accellerators that were submitted. I am composing yet another letter to the ATF FTB to hopefully clarify the bump-fire debate.

NineMMAR15, The description of what BATFE NEWLY considers a machine gun to be according to their Federal firearms law violating illegal 2006-02 ruling, is what bans the Hellfire, Hellstorm, Tac trigger and bumpfiring in general and all semi automatic firearms capable of bumpfiring.

Go to this link and read my open letter to all Americans and you will understand.
redstradingpost.blogspot.com/

Although the ruling does not mention those other devices by name or any semi automatic firearm by name, the wording of THE MECHANICAL OPERATION THAT BATFE ILLOGICALLY AND ILLEGALLY NEWLY MADE UP AND NOW CONSIDERS A MACHINE GUN IS WHAT MAKES THEM ILLEGAL ACCORDING TO THE BATFE RULING.

That wording is...."once the trigger is pulled it initiates a sequence of automatic fire that continues until the finger is removed or the magazine is empty". That illegally in violation of Federal firearms law bans all bumpfire devices and anything that can be bumpfired. Whether or not BATFE decides to unfairly selectively enforce ruling 2006-02 only against my device is irrelevant. The axe is hanging over the head of all bumpfire devices, bumpfiring in general, and anything that can be bumpfired, i.e. all semi automatic firearms. According to their illegal ruling, they could drop that axe at any time. Understand?

   Bill, I see the potential that bump-firing in general could impose on the firearms culture if some Anti-Gunner found out about this technique. Believe me I have received countless emails regarding the potential danger of my website, and my videos. Like you said before the BATF has approved, or has turned a blinds eye regarding the Hell Fire Trigger attachments for 20+ years. Bump firing has not changed until you came up with a revolutionary way harnessing the technique in a "simple" stock at the same time eliminating the technique totally. I merely conjured up a way to simplify, and eliminate the insane cost if the HellFire Trigger by attaching a rubber band to the trigger.

    My issue is that you claim that the BATF 2006-2 ruling specifically includes in the text that bump firing is now illegal. When the last part of that ruling states:

Held further, manufacture and distribution of any device described in this ruling must comply with all provisions of the NFA and the GCA, including 18 U.S.C. 922(o). Held, a device (consisting of a block replacing the original manufacturer’s V-Block of a Ruger 10/22 rifle with two attached rods approximately ¼ inch in diameter and approximately 6 inches in length; a second block, approximately 3 inches long, 1 ⅜ inches wide, and ¾ inch high, machined to allow the two guide rods of the first block to pass through; the second block supporting the guide rods and attached to the stock; using ¼ inch rods; metal washers; rubber and metal bushings; two collars with set screws; one coiled spring; C-clamps; a split ring; the two blocks assembled together with the - 3 - composite stock) that is designed to attach to a firearm and, when activated by a single pull of the trigger, initiates an automatic firing cycle that continues until either the finger is released or the ammunition supply is exhausted, is a machinegun under the National Firearms Act, 26 U.S.C. 5845(b), and the Gun Control Act, 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(23).

The only device discribed in that ruling was sadly you accelerator.

Quoted: Not exactly correct. Although the BATFE CLAIMS their classification letters are only good for the person they addressed it to, this has not been held by the courts to be actual law. Our attorney even told us that if challenged in court, the court may very likely find that it would be reasonable to assume that since the BATFE is the regulating agency for firearms, that classifies firearms, that it would not be unreasonable to assume that the exact same device or firearm that  would be approved and allowed by BATFE for one individual, would also be approved and allowed for another individual since to do otherwise would not be equal protection for all citizens under the law.

1) The 14th Amendment provides for equal protection of the law. Law enforcement agencies cannot have multiple standards for different folks. So it applies to anyone.

2) The letters are borderline worthless. They are just an indicator of how ATF will enforce the law. They are not "get out of jail free" cards. Only the judiciary can make binding rulings.

Quoted: Quoted: Not exactly correct. Although the BATFE CLAIMS their classification letters are only good for the person they addressed it to, this has not been held by the courts to be actual law. Our attorney even told us that if challenged in court, the court may very likely find that it would be reasonable to assume that since the BATFE is the regulating agency for firearms, that classifies firearms, that it would not be unreasonable to assume that the exact same device or firearm that  would be approved and allowed by BATFE for one individual, would also be approved and allowed for another individual since to do otherwise would not be equal protection for all citizens under the law. 1) The 14th Amendment provides for equal protection of the law. Law enforcement agencies cannot have multiple standards for different folks. So it applies to anyone. 2) The letters are borderline worthless. They are just an indicator of how ATF will enforce the law. They are not "get out of jail free" cards. Only the judiciary can make binding rulings.

Exactly correct.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Letter I am composing:   Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Firearms Technology Branch 650 Massachusetts Avenue, NW. Room 6450 Washington, DC 20226 Dear Sir, <snip> Any thoughts? Throw the letter in the trash and forget about it. Nothing good ever came from a lay person sending a letter to the ATF for opinion. Experts have difficulty succeeding. Issues like this need to be carefully crafted based on research of precedents. This is a large Federal Bureaucracy and just because there is "debate on several forums" is not cause to ask them to step in and issue a ruling we may all regret later. Well, according to many people in this thread, it's perfectly OK for a non-involved person to send a letter or a firearm to ATF tech branch and get someone thrown under the bus. I say send your letter and see if we can get the HellFire and Tac Trigger pulled off the market like Bill's device. Let's do it! After all, those devices make dangerous machine guns out of ordinary semi-auto guns. Maybe if all those people get the same letter Bill's customers did, we'll have a different outcome. Honestly, I don't think your letter is that extreme. I'd send it. ATF has written so many letters that contradict themselves, if it ever goes to court an honest judge will laugh at them. I agree CaptainPooby. After all, I've been told countless times and seen many posts encouraging people both here and at other forums that people had a RIGHT to send in another letter to get their own classification because supposedly (and people quote it as if it were law though it isn't) the BATFE approval letters are only good for who they are addressed to right? While you are at it, ask them if the wording of their ruling that describes what their NEWLY made up version of a machine gun is which says..."once the trigger is pulled, it initiates a sequence of automatic fire that continues until the finger is removed or the magazine is empty." if this means if you vertically bumpfire your ruger 10/22 by letting gravity and recoil operate it, if that means your ruger 10/22 is a machine gun because according to the wording of their 2006-02 ruling it says it is a machine gun because once you allow gravity to pull the trigger it initiates a sequence of automatic fire that continues until the finger is removed or the magazine is empty does it not????? I saw posts here over a year ago encouraging people to send in for their own approval letters on my device. What is good for the goose is good for the gander isn't it readers??? Or is that only reserved to cause trouble for people that some think are greedy and taking advantage of a "captive"market that is not captive at all since people can buy many different kinds of rapid fire firearm devices besides mine or if they weren't so cheap and they wanted rapid fire they could buy a real machine gun instead of being so very cheap as to complain about my device which was a fraction of what a real mg cost. I know, maybe if I and other manufacturers who people complained about the price of our products just gave anyone who was too cheap to buy it but wanted to complain about it anyway, one for FREE, yeah that's the ticket, maybe then they won't illogically complain then and call us greedy and incorrectly state that they are a captive market when they could buy a bmf activator, hellfire, hellstorm, gat or tac trigger devices or even heavens forbid, a real machine gun proving they weren't a captive buying audience to me at all. In the future, all manufacturers should let uninformed, ignorant, patent infringing threatening, people who know nothing about their corporation or its costs, and who complain about their product's price, set the price for what they should sell their products for. After all those complaining people know best and that is the way to run a good business and free enterprise at work. I love it when illogic is so easily dispelled and exposed.

I realized, around the time I had to send my spring in, that my 10/22 has a light enough trigger that if installed in a spring-less Accelerator, it would probably "fire faster" if aimed straight downward.

Would the ATF consider this a "Gravity-operated" machinegun?  How about BMF or Gat-trigger with a weighted string attached?  Would that be a "gravity-operated windup" machinegun? What about hanging my match-triggered AR by sticking a broomstick in the trigger guard?

I recall some enterprising individual making an open-bolt tube-gun, like a Sten with no trigger assembly, on the assumption that it was not a machinegun because there was no "trigger" to activate.  The ATF opined that the bolt handle constituted the trigger.

Does this ruling apply to "Bump sticks"? Considering I recall there being some Akins-related stink raised about them, and saw several in the possession of Mr. Bowers, which he wasn't in the mood to talk about.

I could go on for days about Rube Goldberg methods for making semi-auto guns shoot fast.

Hey, I know: How about mounting a Winchester 94 in a spring assembly so the recoil drives the entire rifle back against a fixture that operates the lever.  At the end of the return stroke, the trigger is tripped.  Would this be a machinegun too?