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Mousefart Deer Killer™ 7.62x39 subsonic hunting load with 190 and 175gr subx. Someday 255gr subx. (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 2/3/2022 7:47:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Tao][Edited]
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Overall winner so far, I'm going with 11.7gr of CFEBLK unless Universal is substantially quieter. I dub thee Mousefart Deer Killer™ Best loads that are right about 1050 fps in my ~5000 feet above sea level AO: 190gr subx + Universal = ????????? 190gr subx + Shooters World Blackout = 12gr 190gr subx + CFE BLK = 11.7gr 190gr subx + TiteGroup = 7gr Next up, 175gr: 175gr subx + Shooters World Blackout = XX 175gr subx + CFE BLK = XX 175gr subx + TiteGroup = XX 175gr subx + Universal = XX Eventually, maybe, hopefully 255gr: 255gr subx + Shooters World Blackout = XX 255gr subx + CFE BLK = XX 255gr subx + TiteGroup = XX 255gr subx + Universal = XX ============================= Gordon's Reloading Tool is giving me trouble. All I get with subsonic powder weights is "Propellant charge too small". See post below. ============================ Looking at my parts boxes, I realized I could put together a sweet little 7.62x39 16" Encore rifle, 1:10 twist. Seems like a perfect suppressor host, and overall it'll fill a niche almost identical to a Ruger Ranch rifle in x39. The Encore is 5" shorter and 0.1lb lighter. Of course that means now I have to go mad scientist and figure out what crazy subsonic combinations I can cobble together, because I don't have to worry about OAL or fitting in a magazine. I have plenty of GECO brass and large primers. My main questions are what powders can I use, and what bullets will expand subsonic out of a 16" x39 barrel? I'm open to using both .310 and .308 bullets. I have CFE BLK, Shooters World Blackout (very similar to 1680), H4895, Titegroup, CFE pistol, CFE 223, BLC2, and Win 231. For bullets I have 190 subX, 175 blems that look identical to subx, 150gr SPs, 178 ELDX, 168 SMK, all in 308. I don't have any .310 on hand.  
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| Sounds like you'll do fine with the cfe blk and shooters world blk. I believe the 175gr blems are from the 30-30 sub-x load. Those and the 190 sub-x should do well even though they're 308 and not 310. I would guess you'll probably have better accuracy from the 175s due to your 10 twist but I could be wrong |
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I have read (but have no direct experience) that some 7.62x39 barrels that will shoot .308 bullets fine at typical velocities, perform poorly at subsonic loads due to lower pressures creating poor sealing of the bullets? I don't have enough experience to judge the validity of this statement. At some point I want to pick up a Ruger Ranch in 7.62x39 and then possibly load subsonic for it. So I've been doing some reading here and there on 7.62x39 subsonic loading. It seems the only dedicated .30 cal subsonic hunting bullets on the market are designed for .308 rifles. |
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Recently worked down a .308 subsonic load with TiteGroup; Powder: TiteGroup Charge: 8.5 grains Bullet: 200 grain Speer Hot Core FBPSP Velocity: Chrono broken Primer: WLR Can: Nomad 30 Rifle: Savage 10 FP-SR 20" 1:10 Sounds like a BB gun. |
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Originally Posted By Tao: Looking at my parts boxes, I realized I could put together a sweet little 7.62x39 16" Encore rifle, 1:10 twist I believe. Seems like a perfect suppressor host, and overall it'll fill a niche almost identical to a Ruger Ranch rifle in x39. Of course that means now I have to go mad scientist and figure out what crazy subsonic combinations I can cobble together, because I don't have to worry about OAL or fitting in a magazine. I have plenty of GECO brass and large primers. My main questions are what powders can I use, and what bullets will expand subsonic out of a 16" x39 barrel? I'm open to using both .310 and .308 bullets. I have CFE BLK, Shooters World Blackout (very similar to 1680), H4895, Titegroup, CFE pistol, CFE 223, BLC2, and Win 231. For bullets I have 190 subX, 175 blems that look identical to subx, 150gr SPs, 178 ELDX, 168 SMK, all in 308. I don't have any .310 on hand. https://i.imgur.com/uEWCMFth.jpg There are no regular rifle bullets that are going to expand @ 1k fps. Some specialty sub's are designed to open up, obviously. Or 32 caliber (.312) pistol bullets will expand at that velocity, but it might be difficult to get the lighter pills subsonic. What is the purpose of the gun. If for hunting, remember that a slow expanding bullet will not penetrate all that well. You might be better served with super heavy for caliber bullets that are barely stable and rely on the tumble to kill. I know a guy who culls crop damage deer with a subsonic 300 and he goes that route. He says they twitch like getting stung by a bee at the shot and then drop dead in their tracks most times. |
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All of the 7.62x39 Encore barrels I've seen have had 0.308" bores. Not enough difference to matter, but the American SAAMI 7.62x39 chamber is designed to handle 0.311" bullets with a 0.308" bore, with less pressure increase than would be produced with the original Soviet chamber design. |
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My goto for subs: https://shootersworldpowder.com/blackout/ |
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Originally Posted By Kalashnikov762: Recently worked down a .308 subsonic load with TiteGroup; Powder: TiteGroup Charge: 8.5 grains Bullet: 200 grain Speer Hot Core FBPSP Velocity: Chrono broken Primer: WLR Can: Nomad 30 Rifle: Savage 10 FP-SR 20" 1:10 Sounds like a BB gun. Awesome, thanks, I'll definitely work up something similar. |
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Originally Posted By Tao: Really? That's awesome. I thought I was going to have to make concessions using 308 bullets. Does it make a difference if it's an Encore TC branded barrel? Originally Posted By Tao: Originally Posted By Air_Soft_Contractor: All of the 7.62x39 Encore barrels I've seen have had 0.308" bores. Really? That's awesome. I thought I was going to have to make concessions using 308 bullets. Does it make a difference if it's an Encore TC branded barrel? When I bought a 7.62x39 barrel, TC didn't make them. They were third party produced. There may have been special order TC made 7.62x39 barrels back then, but I couldn't find them. Did it come from the factory in 7.62x39, or was it assembled by somebody? Either way, the SAAMI 7.62x39 chamber was designed by Ruger to allow using 0.311" bullets in 0.308" bores. |
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The possibilities are almost endless when you don't have to account for magazine length COAL. Ended up grabbing some 175 and 190gr sub-x bullets. If I load them to the cannelure, will that case capacity be ok with reduced powder loads meant for subsonic? Attached File |
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Might look at Lehigh defense .308 monolithic bullets. https://lehighdefense.com/308-caliber-194-grain-maximum-expansion-lead-free-bullets.html Just use the 300blk load data with 7.62x39 to work up a load. Faxon has a .308 bore 7.62x39 chambered barrel. I've got a Mini30 and used 168gr SMK to get a 2 MOA load with T680 (similar to 1680) without really trying. |
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I'm not going to pretend I have enough experience to be able to translate 300blk load data to 7.62x39. I've googled and searched, and I'm not coming up with enough where I'd be comfortable starting loading. Would someone be kind enough to give me some starting suggestions for subsonic 190gr and 175gr loads with 1680 or CFEBLK or tite group? Kalashnikov762 mentioned a 308 load with tite group, but again, I don't want to dunning kruger myself trying to translate that larger case to the smaller x39. |
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We have had threads in the past about subsonic 7.62x39. Just searched and can't find one. Somehow I didn't set the archive toggle on one of them and they slipped into the archives. Sorry |
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Dug through the Archives and found these 2 threads. I did have the Archive toggle set on one of the threads. don't know what happened. https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/7-62x39-subsonic-queue-the-eye-roll-/42-507338/ https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/Subsonic-7-62c39mm-load-data-/42-526463/ These being Archived threads the posters name has been removed. |
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Thanks, looks like someone talked about 200 gr Berry's with 9.5 grains of Accurate 1680, so I can at least get started with 1680/SW Blackout. Out of a 16" barrel with 190gr, do we think trying 8 - 8.5 - 9gr would be around the subsonic target of 1050fps? What about for 175gr? Any suggestions for CFEBLK or titegroup? [I'll make sure to put as much info in this thread as possible to consolidate it for those asking in the future.] |
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One way to get guidance on this is to use Gordon's Reloading Tool or Quick Load. These will show you internal pressures and muzzle velocities. GRT is free. Keep pressure in a reasonable range by tweaking powder type and charge weight while keeping muzzle velocity subsonic. This will get you safely in the ball park pending your tests. Similarly, you can use it to check the loads being recommended before actually using them. |
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Originally Posted By Tao: Thanks, looks like someone talked about 200 gr Berry's with 9.5 grains of Accurate 1680, so I can at least get started with 1680/SW Blackout. Out of a 16" barrel with 190gr, do we think trying 8 - 8.5 - 9gr would be around the subsonic target of 1050fps? What about for 175gr? Any suggestions for CFEBLK or titegroup? [I'll make sure to put as much info in this thread as possible to consolidate it for those asking in the future.]  Yes more info the better. Both of those powders are good candidates. |
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Originally Posted By Trollslayer: One way to get guidance on this is to use Gordon's Reloading Tool or Quick Load. These will show you internal pressures and muzzle velocities. GRT is free. Keep pressure in a reasonable range by tweaking powder type and charge weight while keeping muzzle velocity subsonic. This will get you safely in the ball park pending your tests. Similarly, you can use it to check the loads being recommended before actually using them. At first I thought this would be awesome, got it all set up, started putting in values.... It wouldn't let me put subsonic weights of any of the powders mentioned, just gave the error "Propellant weight too small". Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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I would advise anyone going down this particular rabbit hole to adopt GRT. For the time invested in learning the software tool, you will get back an excellent pressure and velocity estimate. Don’t be intimidated or shy about your background. You can do this with some effort and you will find you come out ahead in your load developments when straying off the beaten path. |
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Originally Posted By Tao: At first I thought this would be awesome, got it all set up, started putting in values.... It wouldn't let me put subsonic weights of any of the powders mentioned, just gave the error "Propellant weight too small". https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/90672/Screenshot_2022-03-07_223604_jpg-2305692.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/90672/Screenshot_2022-03-07_223818_jpg-2305695.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/90672/Screenshot_2022-03-07_224325_jpg-2305696.JPG |
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Originally Posted By Tao: I agree, I'm trying, but as seen above, GRT isn't giving me usable info. Is there something I'm doing wrong? Too small of a powder charge in a given case can in fact be dangerous. Even if you start wtih .300bo data, remember the 300bo case holds about 24 or 25 gr of water whereas the x39 case will hold 34-35gr water. |
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Originally Posted By Demphna2: When you click on the OBT tab at the top, does it let you calculate? Attached File |
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Originally Posted By Tao: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/90672/Screenshot_2022-03-11_211833_jpg-2310356.JPG |
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Originally Posted By Demphna2: Alright, you'll need to decrease the initial pressure option. I think baseline is something like 3626 psi. Drop that to 2000 or maybe 1800 in order to get a calculation. Dropped to 2000, then 1800, 1500, 1000, 500, 100... Still "propellant charge too small". |
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Originally Posted By Demphna2: Can you take a screenshot of the page that has all the information you input? Attached File |
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So what I would do is click on that + next to results. Should give you measurements. I would type in your anticipated velocity for 9 grains. I would also decrease the initial pressure to about 1200. This program isn't very good for velocity under 1050 fps. Another option is to click on the powder tab next to OBT. Find the powder you want to use and specify the velocity you want to hit. Calculate that and it'll give you a charge weight that should be close for the certain velocity you want to get. |
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Originally Posted By Demphna2: Another option is to click on the powder tab next to OBT. Find the powder you want to use and specify the velocity you want to hit. Calculate that and it'll give you a charge weight that should be close for the certain velocity you want to get. I think this might have worked. I put in a target velocity of 1050 and I think it's telling me it predicts 9.72gr? Attached File |
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Originally Posted By Tao: I think this might have worked. I put in a target velocity of 1050 and I think it's telling me it predicts 9.72gr? https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/90672/Screenshot_2022-03-17_010145_jpg-2316299.JPG The programs optimal barrel time won't go any lower than a set point, so it's hard to get good info from that part of it if you're trying subs. |
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Originally Posted By Demphna2: There you go, now you can type in a target velocity of 900 to 1100 with each calculation and that should give you your starting point and max point. Adjust as needed after you shoot rounds over a chronograph. The programs optimal barrel time won't go any lower than a set point, so it's hard to get good info from that part of it if you're trying subs. I thought we were on to something, but no matter what I put for the target velocity from 900-1150, it still tells me 9.72 gr. |
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Originally Posted By Tao: If these will be single loaded by hand into an Encore, do I need to bother crimping, or will the friction from just seating be enough? |
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Alright, I threaded the muzzle of my encore myself, and just tested it with regular x39 steel case. Didn't blow my can up! Go me! So my next question is, before I put them through my can, how do I test bullet stability of my subsonic reloads while I'm getting chrono data? I don't want them wobbling coming out and striking a baffle or the end cap. |
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I’d shoot them first without the can into a clean paper target to see if the bullets were keyholing. That’s at least a sanity check. Is this the definitive test? I have no idea. This thread is pertinent to my interests. Just picked this up last weekend: Attached File Ruger American Ranch in 7.62x39. 16” barrel is already threaded for a can. |
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Found a calculator for bullet stability: http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi It says the 190gr subx should be stable with a 1:10 down to at least 750fps. I don't plan on loading that low, so I'll verify by shooting through clean paper, and hopefully that'll be good enough. |
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I was happy to see a pic of the rifle - nice. Whole Case Capacity is ~ 35.6 gr Minus 15% for the neck gives you 35.6 * .85 = 30.2 usable grains Then, when the case lies horizontal, the powder has to stack higher than the midpoint of the case i.e. the primer flash hole, to avoid a sudden detonation of all the powder at once from primer flash across all of the powder charge. So, 30.2 * 55% (or 60%) gives you minimum safe powder amount, of 16.6gr (55% fill) or 18.1gr (60% fill). Pick a powder, pick a safe amount, work with your chronograph. I would start with IMR-4895 or H-4895 (numbers 76 & 75 on the powder burn rate chart and see how they work. Then try the next fastest powder, etc. Check the paper and the bore after every shot, to see where the bullet went (or didn't). |
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Originally Posted By AeroEngineer: Any updates? Colorado finally decided to stop being retarded, and the next few days should be beautiful, so I'm gonna load up a few just to get them over the chrono. I still haven't decided how much powder. I'm thinking 9, 10, 11, 12gr of 1680 and CFE BLK. 7, 8, 9gr of titegroup. Anybody object to those numbers? |
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Ready to go for tomorrow. 9-12gr of SW Blackout and CFEBLK 7-9gr Titegroup All seated to 1.825 at the ogive. Also, poop on Lee for making the little square ratchet piece in their turret press so delicate. Attached File |
| I know nothing about this stuff but that seems like a lot of titegroup to me. Hogdon has a 308 load with a 168 that's 8.0 grains. So just make sure. |
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Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: I know nothing about this stuff but that seems like a lot of titegroup to me. Hogdon has a 308 load with a 168 that's 8.0 grains. So just make sure. Thanks, I'll look at the 7 and 8gr primers, and if they're showing pressure signs I won't shoot the 9gr. |
Mousefart Deer Killer™ 7.62x39 subsonic hunting load with 190 and 175gr subx. Someday 255gr subx. (Page 1 of 3)
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