User Panel
User Panel
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NV, USA
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Posted: 2/24/2014 1:04:35 PM EDT
[#1]
have the new pistol safes left the factory yet?
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Posted: 2/24/2014 4:07:28 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cj_the_pj:
have the new pistol safes left the factory yet? Yes, I believe the second production run is almost ready to ship out.... this beast is a big hit. The literature doesn't really highlight the features very well. This safe has a few first in class security improvements that nobody else has. The safe has a pair of dead-bars that lock the door down at the hinge side in the event the hinge is cut off, or the hinge pin is removed (easy to do on most pistol "boxes".). It has a mammoth 1-1/2" wide solid brass locking bolt, very impressive. And, the newest Patent Pending punch-proof lock cage for the Simplex Lock, making it impervious to punch attack, when typical Simplex lock installations can be knocked off with a small punch and hammer. Other innovations make this thing the best pistol safe in the industry, hands down. |
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Posted: 2/24/2014 4:22:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Durzil:
Any eta on them if ordering presently? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Durzil:
Originally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By bani:
any pictures yet of a BF with lock duo? or do any actually exist yet? Not yet, they are not in yet.... will update. Any eta on them if ordering presently? The NL Duo kits are in stock. 
The backing plate allows the cable from the keypad to be hidden, and make it's way thru the spindle hole of the primary dial lock. No need for a secondary hole in the door. We are pairing it with the LGBasic keypad from LaGard. |
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Posted: 2/24/2014 7:17:33 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Yes, I believe the second production run is almost ready to ship out.... this beast is a big hit. The literature doesn't really highlight the features very well. This safe has a few first in class security improvements that nobody else has. The safe has a pair of dead-bars that lock the door down at the hinge side in the event the hinge is cut off, or the hinge pin is removed (easy to do on most pistol "boxes".). It has a mammoth 1-1/2" wide solid brass locking bolt, very impressive. And, the newest Patent Pending punch-proof lock cage for the Simplex Lock, making it impervious to punch attack, when typical Simplex lock installations can be knocked off with a small punch and hammer. Other innovations make this thing the best pistol safe in the industry, hands down. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By cj_the_pj:
have the new pistol safes left the factory yet? Yes, I believe the second production run is almost ready to ship out.... this beast is a big hit. The literature doesn't really highlight the features very well. This safe has a few first in class security improvements that nobody else has. The safe has a pair of dead-bars that lock the door down at the hinge side in the event the hinge is cut off, or the hinge pin is removed (easy to do on most pistol "boxes".). It has a mammoth 1-1/2" wide solid brass locking bolt, very impressive. And, the newest Patent Pending punch-proof lock cage for the Simplex Lock, making it impervious to punch attack, when typical Simplex lock installations can be knocked off with a small punch and hammer. Other innovations make this thing the best pistol safe in the industry, hands down. I think I am going to buy one. I want to make sure this is the box you are talking about, PS1210HD |
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Posted: 2/24/2014 7:38:14 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BGENE:
I think I am going to buy one. I want to make sure this is the box you are talking about, PS1210HD Yep, that's it.... |
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Posted: 2/24/2014 8:49:18 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Yep, that's it.... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By BGENE:
I think I am going to buy one. I want to make sure this is the box you are talking about, PS1210HD Yep, that's it.... Thank you, looks solid for a small box. |
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OR, USA
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Posted: 2/24/2014 11:35:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Durzil]
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
The NL Duo kits are in stock. http://<a href=http://i1363.photobucket.com/albums/r703/TheSafeGuy/Duo_zps3699701e.jpg The backing plate allows the cable from the keypad to be hidden, and make it's way thru the spindle hole of the primary dial lock. No need for a secondary hole in the door. We are pairing it with the LGBasic keypad from LaGard. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By Durzil:
Originally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By bani:
any pictures yet of a BF with lock duo? or do any actually exist yet? Not yet, they are not in yet.... will update. Any eta on them if ordering presently? The NL Duo kits are in stock. http://<a href=http://i1363.photobucket.com/albums/r703/TheSafeGuy/Duo_zps3699701e.jpg The backing plate allows the cable from the keypad to be hidden, and make it's way thru the spindle hole of the primary dial lock. No need for a secondary hole in the door. We are pairing it with the LGBasic keypad from LaGard. Those look a lot different than the ones I've seen pictures of and that Cannon had. Previously it was a dial with a keypad on top of the shroud of the extended dial. I'm glad they are separated now. Is this a new model? Can any electronic lock be used? Thanks TSG for all your help and such an informative thread. |
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Posted: 2/25/2014 12:05:22 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Durzil:
Those look a lot different than the ones I've seen pictures of and that Cannon had. Previously it was a dial with a keypad on top of the shroud of the extended dial. Is this a new model? Can any electronic lock be used? Thanks TSG for all your help and such an informative thread. The one you are referring to is the lock package where Canon has an exclusive. That is called the "Duet", all made by NL Locks. It has an integrated Keypad and Dial. 
The NL "Duo" lock is the same lock package in the back, but standard hardware out front. It uses a regular LaGard dial and LGBasic or NL Locks keypad. They tooled the face plate so there was a practical way to market the same system without breaking the exclusive arrangements with Canon. Only LaGard and NL Lock Keypads can plug into the Duo lock and function. The NL and LaGard electronics inside the Duo lock body, or any other LaGard or NL lock, are basically identical in function and circuit design. Both designed by the same guy. |
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USA
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Posted: 2/25/2014 11:06:49 AM EDT
[#9]
First I would like to say a big thank you to TSG. Your willingness to share you knowledge has been unbelievable. I have been following this tread for about a month as I have been researching buying a gun RSC. I am very envious of those who have purchased the upper-end American Security safes.
So, I have a question / thought... Based on explanation of the laws of thermodynamics that I have learned over the past month from this thread, it appears that a passive type insulator is not the optimal form of fire resistance (especially for the $). With that being said and accepted as factual, would one be better served buying a RSC without fire protection and installing a more traditional and accepted form of fire protection (drywall) as described earlier in this thread. I believe it went something like: top first, then sides, back and finally bottom all sealed with RTV. Mind you, I know this will never equal the fire protection of a BF series RSC. My thought was that I could get some fire protection with a greater security level than that of an average $1,000 RSC. My thought process has been derived by TSG's recommendation to focus your $ towards the risk that you are trying to reduce. For me, this is the risk of theft first and fire secondary. Everything in my collection can be replaced at a local sporting goods store and is insured. I do have a good fire safe in the office for document and family keepsakes. The RSC will be a gun safe only. Thoughts / Suggestions??? |
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Posted: 2/25/2014 2:55:34 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bjdean16:Based on explanation of the laws of thermodynamics that I have learned over the past month from this thread, it appears that a passive type insulator is not the optimal form of fire resistance (especially for the $). With that being said and accepted as factual, would one be better served buying a RSC without fire protection and installing a more traditional and accepted form of fire protection (drywall) as described earlier in this thread. I believe it went something like: top first, then sides, back and finally bottom all sealed with RTV. Mind you, I know this will never equal the fire protection of a BF series RSC. My thought was that I could get some fire protection with a greater security level than that of an average $1,000 RSC.
So, first and foremost, things I might suggest does not necessarily constitute a holy blessed super solution. I like to float ideas when it might be helpful. Adding insulation to an unlined safe was such a suggestion for someone that had a non-lined safe. To buy a safe with that intent is not what I had in mind. The reason is that if you want the most from a fire-lined safe, it really needs to have a "pan door" where a full panel or two of insulation is inside the entire door shell face. In the retrofit suggestion, I recommended slapping as much gyp panels pieces as I could fit on the back of the steel door face under the cover. A non-fire version of a gunsafe will most likely have a flat 3/16" - 1/4"steel door. That's clearly quite inferior. Like I said, it's not a bad solution, but it's probably not as good as a store-bought fire-lined safe. So, given that bold disclaimer, you can sure make a safe better with a do-it-yourself liner install. It's not a trivial job, but if you feel like doing all the work, more power to ya! You might do some math and make sure the materials you need don't cover the additional cost of a better safe before you begin a buy and modify project... don't forget the door seals, materials to cover the gyp-boards and the cut-down of the interior parts. Place some value on your time, I would.... |
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Posted: 2/25/2014 3:03:56 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Sorry, I don't have a photo like that, but I can take a snap Monday and put that up for you. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By P400:
I meant I just wanted to see a picture of the inside of the safe, like the ones you have up on your website for other small safes. Sorry, I don't have a photo like that, but I can take a snap Monday and put that up for you. Did you get a chance to take pics of the ESF1214? |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 2/25/2014 5:58:50 PM EDT
[#12]
For a long time I have been studying everything I can find about safes to inform my purchase. To this end, I have a TL30 AMSEC on the way.
I've been wondering about a couple of basic design things; 1. Why is the lock always located directly behind the spindle hole? (well, dummy, that's where the shaft is) No, really, why is there not just the simplest of gear setups so that the lock and hard plate could be located practically anywhere on the door, rather than Directly in line with the ONLY HOLE IN THE SAFE? Is this because UL doesn't do punch attacks....because the lock is tested separately? 2. With a TL rated safe over 750# anchoring is apparently not required AND UL says only a single 1/4" hole for wiring. Does this mean that IF a fella were to bolt his TL 30 down that he would be voiding the UL rating? 2a. Does AMSEC void the rating by offering a bolt down hole? The question is asked because I am wondering about resale of the altered safe to, say, a jewelry store whose insurance REQUIRES the rating. |
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Posted: 2/25/2014 5:59:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By P400:
Did you get a chance to take pics of the ESF1214? Here you go. No, those are not the keys for the dead-battery bypass. 
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Posted: 2/25/2014 6:29:09 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By nufsed:
For a long time I have been studying everything I can find about safes to inform my purchase. To this end, I have a TL30 AMSEC on the way. I've been wondering about a couple of basic design things; 1. Why is the lock always located directly behind the spindle hole? (well, dummy, that's where the shaft is) No, really, why is there not just the simplest of gear setups so that the lock and hard plate could be located practically anywhere on the door, rather than Directly in line with the ONLY HOLE IN THE SAFE? Is this because UL doesn't do punch attacks....because the lock is tested separately? 2. With a TL rated safe over 750# anchoring is apparently not required AND UL says only a single 1/4" hole for wiring. Does this mean that IF a fella were to bolt his TL 30 down that he would be voiding the UL rating? 2a. Does AMSEC void the rating by offering a bolt down hole? The question is asked because I am wondering about resale of the altered safe to, say, a jewelry store whose insurance REQUIRES the rating. Someone has been doing their homework. 
Lock behind spindle: That probably has roots that go beyond my grandfather's days. I, like you, can only assume the reasoning. These plain mechanical locks date back into the 1700's in almost the same basic form as today. Not much has changed, except there have been some security improvements. There are more complex offset gear drive locks, like you described, used primarily on big Bank Vaults. UL has an unwritten rule that the real estate under the lock footprint does not get attacked. And, like you suggest, they regard the lock rating as an independent listing that should stand on it's own. At the risk of opening a can of worms, that rule should probably be reconsidered. The whole wire-access and anchor hole thing is down-played. We all know that a 1/4" hole is a joke when it comes to practical wiring systems for electrical devices and communications. The one thing we do try to keep sacred is the direct line-of-sight rule, where any ports or holes are placed or installed so there is not a clear view of the back of the door. Sometimes we install a bent tube in the wall before we fill composite safes. Otherwise, we just keep to the corners where visibility would be difficult to exploit. Anchor holes are also off the radar, wherein the philosophy is that any hole we place will be filled with a big fat bolt anchored into the floor. Not much use in a hole obscured to that degree. So, we put as many holes as you like, and as big as you like. I have seem safes with four 1" diameter grade 8 bolts. Some people are pretty paranoid. A single properly installed 1/2" bolt is close to impossible to defeat. So, again, this is not a matter for anyone to be concerned regarding listing retention. In either case, anchor holes or wire ports, there should not be any issues with resale value. Now, I'll qualify that with the caveat that an Insurance adjuster may see something like that and choose to reduce coverage allowances, but that would be discretionary, not a written set of rules and completely unrelated to UL listings. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 2/25/2014 6:39:15 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
The NL Duo kits are in stock. http://<a href=http://i1363.photobucket.com/albums/r703/TheSafeGuy/Duo_zps3699701e.jpg The backing plate allows the cable from the keypad to be hidden, and make it's way thru the spindle hole of the primary dial lock. No need for a secondary hole in the door. We are pairing it with the LGBasic keypad from LaGard. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By Durzil:
Originally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By bani:
any pictures yet of a BF with lock duo? or do any actually exist yet? Not yet, they are not in yet.... will update. Any eta on them if ordering presently? The NL Duo kits are in stock. http://<a href=http://i1363.photobucket.com/albums/r703/TheSafeGuy/Duo_zps3699701e.jpg The backing plate allows the cable from the keypad to be hidden, and make it's way thru the spindle hole of the primary dial lock. No need for a secondary hole in the door. We are pairing it with the LGBasic keypad from LaGard. If the electrical lock portion malfunctions, does this also effect the locking mechanism of the dial in anyway? Would you say this is any less secure than the traditional mechanical dial by itself? |
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Posted: 2/25/2014 7:12:57 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Here you go. No, those are not the keys for the dead-battery bypass. http://<a href=http://i1363.photobucket.com/albums/r703/TheSafeGuy/ESF1214_zps54c6f348.jpg Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By P400:
Did you get a chance to take pics of the ESF1214? Here you go. No, those are not the keys for the dead-battery bypass. http://<a href=http://i1363.photobucket.com/albums/r703/TheSafeGuy/ESF1214_zps54c6f348.jpg Thank you! Of all the small biometric safes that I have looked at lately, that is by far the most solid and substantial looking. I plan on ordering one soon. 
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Posted: 2/25/2014 7:29:30 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mr2143:
If the electrical lock portion malfunctions, does this also effect the locking mechanism of the dial in anyway? Would you say this is any less secure than the traditional mechanical dial by itself? The fundamental concept of this lock is to work as a Mechanical to open in the event the electronics have died. Security is always a little compromised when you add more hardware and mechanisms. It bears adequate UL Ratings, but that doesn't mean there isn't some weakness that was introduced when they kludged two locks into one. There may be some bypass options that are easier to exploit, but that would only be a concern when thinking about high-end professional attack. For a residential gunsafe, not even a thought unless you're keeping a mountain of gold and everyone knows it... |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 2/25/2014 7:41:08 PM EDT
[#18]
Ok thank you for the answer. When ordering from safeandvaultstore.com, it gives the portion of AMSEC Lock Duo Redundant Lock. Is this what that option is or should I call to see if they can do the option listed in the forum?
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Posted: 2/25/2014 9:45:01 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mr2143:
Ok thank you for the answer. When ordering from safeandvaultstore.com, it gives the option of AMSEC Lock Duo Redundant Lock. Is this what that option is or should I call to see if they can do the option listed in the forum? The AMSEC Lock Duo Redundant Lock is the option you want... |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 2/26/2014 9:43:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: nufsed]
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Someone has been doing their homework.
UL has an unwritten rule........... that rule should probably be reconsidered. a 1/4" hole is a joke we <can> install a bent tube in the wall before we fill composite safes. A single properly installed 1/2" bolt is close to impossible to defeat. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By nufsed:
a couple of basic design things; Directly in line with the ONLY HOLE IN THE SAFE? UL doesn't do punch attacks....?/a single 1/4" hole for wiring. /2a. Does AMSEC void the rating/ wondering about resale. Someone has been doing their homework.
UL has an unwritten rule........... that rule should probably be reconsidered. a 1/4" hole is a joke we <can> install a bent tube in the wall before we fill composite safes. A single properly installed 1/2" bolt is close to impossible to defeat. Thank you so much for your answers! Yes, I HAVE been doing some homework...Note that while the internet is my lab, THIS THREAD is the Lecture hall and You are the Professor. This is Security Container Design-Advanced Studies 301 and I am fortunate to have attended. Your patience with our sometimes unruly mob and your willingness to answer every question, arcane, technical, theoretical, historical and the depth of resource you provide cannot be overstated. One THOUSAND replies is a testament to your value and further reminds us that we all owe a debt to AR15.com for their continued hosting of this discussion. Thank you, and Thanks to AR15.com. On the points answered above: The No-Punch Test, should definitely be addressed. While the UL has the stance that their separate lock test makes the mounted lock sacred, the the semi-enlightened wanna-be safe attackers in my neighborhood will afford the lock on my safe no such sanctity. It would be fantastic to see the cast-in-place bent tube(s) on the option list! Especially if the UL would codify their inclusion (yeah, that's a reach, I know) Safes this heavy often end up in a garage where a pickup and a chain are a real risk. I would respectfully suggest that four 1/2" bolts would be significantly better, maybe even saving the day. Ricky |
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Posted: 2/26/2014 10:53:57 AM EDT
[#21]
As far as punching the lock goes, real safes will trip the re-lock if this happens, most RSC's don't have re-lockers though.
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USA
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Posted: 2/26/2014 11:39:40 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Gone_Fission:
As far as punching the lock goes, real safes will trip the re-lock if this happens, most RSC's don't have re-lockers though. ^This. Most UL listed locks also have internal relockers that are fired during a punch attack. In addition, some locks are designed with failure points in the body area around the spindle hole that shear off, while the part of the lock holding the bolt remains in place. In a perfect world with 100% lock reliability and no lost combos, is a remote lock mounting location better for security? Absolutely! However, this introduces other non-security related issues. You can never change back to a mechanical or keylock and any lock malfunction or lost combo will require making holes in the safe that are not under the keypad/dial, so the repair and damage will be visible. |
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Posted: 2/26/2014 12:56:09 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By turnip75:
In a perfect world with 100% lock reliability and no lost combos, is a remote lock mounting location better for security? Absolutely! However, this introduces other non-security related issues. You can never change back to a mechanical or keylock and any lock malfunction or lost combo will require making holes in the safe that are not under the keypad/dial, so the repair and damage will be visible. Excellent points. We have been toying with the idea of moving the locking point away from the spindle, but there is still a strong base of customers that prefer the mechanical lock. We still see more than 40% of safes in all classes leaving the factory equipped with the old trusty mechanical combo lock. Face it, even when a proven reliable lock is available like the ESL10 or ESL20, the general feeling is influenced by all the horror stories and so many other brands that just plain suck. We install every brand and model of lock available, and maintain service history on them. Some locks have periodic failure rate in excess of 20%! I don't understand how they survive. I guess the news just doesn't trickle down very well to the consumer level. We don't publish these numbers, and we just keep that data between us and the lock vendors. Unfortunately, our willingness to satisfy the customer first isolates the vendors from the penalty of paying for the failures, and we see most of our vendor claims are denied. Even when they honor a lock warranty, and they replace failing parts, they almost never will cover the secondary service costs. The average service invoice, not including replacement parts, materials, and overnight shipping, is over $175 per Case. At some point we will be forced to stop offering certain lock brands because we don't get the compensation that should be freely given. That time is near for some, but don't ask me who that might be, I can't share. |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 2/26/2014 4:47:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: cj_the_pj]
[#24]
currently locked out of my new ps1210hd...
it says set to factory - so i called service and the girl gave me the factory code but that doesnt work... and so here i am with 24 pounds of steel on my lap trying to guess simplex codes... :X EDIT - got it fixed - but need to change combo now... it was just finicky before and her directions were a little skewed :/ |
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Posted: 2/26/2014 5:37:30 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cj_the_pj:
currently locked out of my new ps1210hd... it says set to factory - so i called service and the girl gave me the factory code but that doesnt work... and so here i am with 24 pounds of steel on my lap trying to guess simplex codes... :X EDIT - got it fixed - but need to change combo now... it was just finicky before and her directions were a little skewed :/ Guess our guys forgot the instructions. Duh! Sorry about that. They are all scrambling around here now trying to figure out how that happened, LOL. |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 2/26/2014 6:33:47 PM EDT
[#26]
post a sticker that says this is the code and this is how to change it? = fixed... or a printout... but there was no instructions or manual in the box at all...
same with the change key tool - she said just stick something in the hole... haha ok... so i got it worked out - there is a good video on youtube to change it but i would say it is going to blow up your phone lines with people asking the same problems :-D |
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Posted: 2/26/2014 7:48:50 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cj_the_pj:
same with the change key tool - she said just stick something in the hole... haha ok... so i got it worked out - there is a good video on youtube to change it but i would say it is going to blow up your phone lines with people asking the same problems :-D The box I saw had the OEM Instructions Booklet from Simplex inside. The only thing special here is getting to the Change Button, which is hidden by the Punch-Resistant steel box surrounding the lock body. Well, we like to keep you on your toes...you're welcome! Does it meet your expectations? |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 2/26/2014 10:34:27 PM EDT
[#28]
i have no oem instructions... just really how to mount the lock into something else like i bought the lock alone... and yes it does - very robust!
i had an orange sheet that told me how to change the combination for UNKNOWN numbers... lol so anyways haha got it setup now - but im sure someone fell asleep getting this stuff out and didnt put the right code with it :-D |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 2/28/2014 12:05:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: nufsed]
[#29]
Lets talk about door seals. I have a CF6528 which, of course, has the two-hour fire rating withOUT door seals.
I know that seals could be added, intumescent or not (there's room, in other words) and, as usual, looking around these interwebs leads to conflicted reasoning. I know that TSG can sort this out.
Thanks, Ricky |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 2/28/2014 1:39:04 PM EDT
[#30]
For mine I picked up some Hager Hi Temp Rubber smoke seals (for fire doors) and placed that on the surfaces parallel to the door. I.E. closest to the inside - farthest from the heat.
I also picked up two 6-foot strips of Palusol from AMSEC for way too much $$ to line all of the frame edges. I.E closer to the heat than the smoke seals. I didn't line the bottom edge. |
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Posted: 2/28/2014 2:30:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By nufsed:
Yes Well, not really. The big composites behave differently. The steam is fully developed in the first few minutes, and the door fit is not that loose. We didn't see any evidence of that in real testing of the CE/CF. True, the "smoke seal" should touch and close any gaps before fire exposure. However, the soft seals we use are not just weather striping. They are silicone foam seals that meet UL92 standards, and have a melting point of around 700ºF. Most weather stripping is either vinyl or rubber, and will burn up at much lower temperatures. There is little risk of pressure buildup, even with a perfect seal. The steam will blow past any seals with just a couple of pounds per square inch of positive pressure. For you to develop a seal strong enough to raise pressure enough to cause an elevated steam temperature problem, you would need to back your car up against the door to close it. It's a big door, and there is a lot of seal surface. Do the math. A 1/2" wide seal around a 65x28 door is about 93 square inches of surface area. To place just 1 lbs per square inch of load on the seal requires a 93 lbs of force to close the door. You want a very soft, better yet hollow, seal that compresses very easily to minimize the door closure forces. Relax. Trust the technology, know you have bought a product that already gives you all you need. Add a soft seal if you feel better, but it's not necessary. It will help, a little. The intumescent seal addition is worth more for the uber-extreme conditions if you have a wildfire, total burn down, safe sits in a pile of glowing coals. The AMVault fire test went 2 hours, the inside temperature didn't exceed 265ºF. We didn't run to failure (because we ran a UL72 compliant test that stops and allows a soak period), but I would guess that safe will actually go 3 to 4 hours before you hit 350 inside. That's based on the slope of the temp rise at the end of the test. There is more than a TON of concrete in that safe, which equates to huge water reserves for long term Calcination decay. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/5/2014 10:16:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: ArmedAndFree]
[#32]
Thank you, Tony!
I've been procrastinating the purchase of a safe for well over a year. I started off thinking I might buy one of those “safes” (read: gun lockers) from the big box store for under $1K, then I saw some videos of them getting easily compromised. So I stepped up the budget to under $2K. My wife was impressed by Liberty's advertising and the fact that they've shifted their manufacturing all to America. Of course, I couldn't help thinking when I watched the commercials, “If a criminal shows up at my house with a crane, I've got bigger problems than my safe getting cracked.” I too want an American made safe, but I'm not going to penalize a company for outsourcing the manufacture of their budget line of safes overseas in order to compete in a broader market. The one consistent thing I heard was to “buy a bigger gun safe than your current needs”. And at that point I realized that less than $2K ain't gonna do it. Now I'm shopping over $2k and the urge to get the best bang for the buck is stronger. So I've been researching safes, in earnest, for the past few months and found lots of websites, brochures, and opinions, but very few clear cut facts to set one apart from from another in terms actual security. Although I'm generally a prudent and frugal shopper, I was so exhausted with the bullshit I'd been wading through that I was damn near ready to just let my wife pick the prettiest one on the floor at the male goose hill store. This very informative thread is EXACTLY the thing that I needed to get me over the hump. A few things I appreciate: -Your willingness to share with us your earned knowledge from experience in the field, walking the fine line of educating those of us eager to learn while maintaining discretion to guard you company's secrets. -Your tolerance and grace, but mostly a willingness to stick around after, dealing with somebody who apparently believes in some sort of Common Core type version of the Scientific Method, whereby one begins with their conclusion and emotionally bonds with that conclusion then tries to undermine the credibility of anyone who dares challenge the validity of his unproven belief. -You stood firm on not being intimidated into becoming the thing that you were accused of being: an advertiser. I respect standing on principal. It was wise of arfcom not to pursue twisting your arm. -If all that wasn't enough you've reminded me that there's such a thing as a Californian that behaves like and American! It's refreshing to hear a Californian warning fellow Americans of the pitfalls of Liberalism/Progressivism. All we usually hear from are the elitists in Hollyweird that presume to be qualified to dictate to the rest of us what to think. And thanks to all who participated in moving this thread forward. There have been so many good questions that I'm only left with a few to ask. After reading through this whole thread, and rereading parts and doing tangent research, I finally decided to, again, step up my budget for a safe. Crime here is not that bad. It may have something to do with the fact that the good people of Texas have so far been wise enough to not cripple the peoples right to protect their family and property with deadly force. But I feel it's wise to at least make it difficult for any would be thief that may gamble his life invading my home while we're away. As for fire, we're pretty conscientious about fire hazards around the house, but it was only two years ago that wild fires were raging in Central Texas. So fire security is also a factor. All things considered, I've settled on investing in a BF6030 Granite with Black Nickel hardware and 4ga upgraded interior liner. I'm ready to place my order except for one last decision. I've been torn between the old-standard-tried-and-true combination lock and the more convenient electronic lock. Given that the modern e-lock is proven reliable well beyond the number of cycles of a mechanical combination lock and is faster to open and just as secure, I was leaning towards the ESL10XL. I don't think it's likely that I'll have a thief invade my home, but I'm investing in burglar security just in case. I don't think it's likely that my house will burn down, but I'm investing in fire security just in case. I'm not sure if there is a real plot to deploy a EMP that affects my area, but I'd rather be safe than sorry. And aside from that, I'd rather not be at the mercy of waiting and hoping for a locksmith in the case an emergency where my lock has failed. My experience has taught me not to depend on good luck. So the idea of a redundant control for the lock really appeals to me, where one has the convenient quick access of the e-lock AND the good ole reliable combination lock standing by just in case. The Lock Duo seems to be the perfect solution, BUT... The picture of the Lock Duo doesn't look quite worthy of the BF line. I mean, the standard lock on a BF safe appears to be a nice quality spy-proof key-locking dial, while the pictured Lock Duo features a very basic looking dial on a plastic dual escutcheon plate with a basic keypad. I don't mean to get too caught up in appearance at the expense of function, but is the pictured Lock Duo you posted as good as it's gonna get for a redundant lock system? Any considerations for AMSEC to develop a redundant system with the spy-proof key-locking dial and a ESL10XL with a BF-worthy metal escutcheon plate? If so, is it contingent on enough of us showing demand by investing in the current Lock Duo now, and then having to invest in retro-fitting a AMSEC version later? Is the LaGard Lock Duo actually worthy of the BF line? You've established a pattern of not specifically condemning others, but if you think I should reconsider the Lock Duo please IM me and point me in the direction of where I can research credible info on the subject. I see the dial and plastic escutcheon plate is black and the keypad is chrome. Will the basic electronic keypad be matched to the selected hardware color, like the Black Nickel, or will it just be available in chrome? |
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Posted: 3/5/2014 11:21:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmedAndFree:
I don't mean to get too caught up in appearance at the expense of function, but is the pictured Lock Duo you posted as good as it's gonna get for a redundant lock system? Any considerations for AMSEC to develop a redundant system with the spy-proof key-locking dial and a ESL10XL with a BF-worthy metal escutcheon plate? If so, is it contingent on enough of us showing demand by investing in the current Lock Duo now and then having to invest in retro-fitting a AMSEC version later? I see the dial and plastic escutcheon plate is black and the keypad is chrome. Will the basic electronic keypad be matched to the selected hardware color, like the Black Nickel, or will it just be available in chrome? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmedAndFree:
I don't mean to get too caught up in appearance at the expense of function, but is the pictured Lock Duo you posted as good as it's gonna get for a redundant lock system? Any considerations for AMSEC to develop a redundant system with the spy-proof key-locking dial and a ESL10XL with a BF-worthy metal escutcheon plate? If so, is it contingent on enough of us showing demand by investing in the current Lock Duo now and then having to invest in retro-fitting a AMSEC version later? I see the dial and plastic escutcheon plate is black and the keypad is chrome. Will the basic electronic keypad be matched to the selected hardware color, like the Black Nickel, or will it just be available in chrome? Thanks for the kind words... At this time, we are not planning to develop an AMSEC redundant product like the Duo. It is a niche product with relatively low volume, and the tooling investment could not be supported unless volume were to become significant. The electronics for the Duo system are in the body of the dual-mode lock, and they are only compatible with LaGard or NL Locks Keypads. There is no means to attach any other brand of lock to the redundant lock mechanism. If you prefer a Black Nickel Spy-proof Dial, I'm believe we can accommodate that if it's specified on the order. Your dealer can get a you price for that option. As for the LGBasic Keypad, you can have them inquire on a color match for that too, but I don't know if LaGard makes the LGBasic Keypad in Black Nickel. It's probably available, but likely both the dial and keypad are special order items and we could not guarantee a good color match to the other hardware. Is the LaGard Lock Duo actually worthy of the BF line? You've established a pattern of not specifically condemning others, but if you think I should reconsider the Lock Duo please IM me and point me in the direction of where I can research credible info on the subject. I think the Duo is fine. The redundancy gives you the opportunity to deal with any malfunctions. The NL Duo lock is new to us, so we don't have any service history that indicates there may or may not be reliability issues. The electronics inside are proven to be good, as they are the same as the electronics in the rest of the keypad lock products. |
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Posted: 3/5/2014 3:07:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmedAndFree:
-If all that wasn't enough you've reminded me that there's such a thing as a Californian that behaves like and American! It's refreshing to hear a Californian warning fellow Americans of the pitfalls of Liberalism/Progressivism. All we usually hear from are the elitists in Hollyweird that presume to be qualified to dictate to the rest of us what to think.[/span][/span] Believe it or not, there are a lot of feet-on-the-ground people out here in the Peoples Repubic of Kalifornia. We try as hard as we can to take down the liberal Fruits and Nuts that run this state, but we're sorely outnumbered. It's been a steep downhill slide ever since Ronnie left us for the White House. The wealth of Industry and Silicon Valley corrupted the politicians and look where it landed. This state is gone, off the deep end, and no remote chance of a recovery. We proudly own 1/2 of the Welfare cases in the country, and ALL of the worst liberal left wing gun grabbing female congressmen. They are letting all the illegals make it home, and now Spanish is fast becoming the official state language. It's a tragedy, and no matter how much effort we put in, we get smashed. Every year gets even worse. The bleeding heart uber-liberal tree huggers, all a bunch of eco-terrorists hell-bent on turning this state back into a field of daises and roses, are strangling manufacturing with taxes and mega-regulation. If you want to see where Obama and company can take us, just look to this state and Illinois for a perfect view into the future. It's truly a shame.I used to love this state... if it weren't for career and family, i would move to Texas. Here is my newest toy I just finished building, AR-15 chambered for 7.62x39. Damn, it's sweet! 
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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/6/2014 12:54:28 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Thanks for the kind words... At this time, we are not planning to develop an AMSEC redundant product like the Duo. It is a niche product with relatively low volume, and the tooling investment could not be supported unless volume were to become significant. The electronics for the Duo system are in the body of the dual-mode lock, and they are only compatible with LaGard or NL Locks Keypads. There is no means to attach any other brand of lock to the redundant lock mechanism. If you prefer a Black Nickel Spy-proof Dial, I'm believe we can accommodate that if it's specified on the order. Your dealer can get a you price for that option. As for the LGBasic Keypad, you can have them inquire on a color match for that too, but I don't know if LaGard makes the LGBasic Keypad in Black Nickel. It's probably available, but likely both the dial and keypad are special order items and we could not guarantee a good color match to the other hardware. I think the Duo is fine. The redundancy gives you the opportunity to deal with any malfunctions. The NL Duo lock is new to us, so we don't have any service history that indicates there may or may not be reliability issues. The electronics inside are proven to be good, as they are the same as the electronics in the rest of the keypad lock products. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By ArmedAndFree:
I don't mean to get too caught up in appearance at the expense of function, but is the pictured Lock Duo you posted as good as it's gonna get for a redundant lock system? Any considerations for AMSEC to develop a redundant system with the spy-proof key-locking dial and a ESL10XL with a BF-worthy metal escutcheon plate? If so, is it contingent on enough of us showing demand by investing in the current Lock Duo now and then having to invest in retro-fitting a AMSEC version later? I see the dial and plastic escutcheon plate is black and the keypad is chrome. Will the basic electronic keypad be matched to the selected hardware color, like the Black Nickel, or will it just be available in chrome? Thanks for the kind words... At this time, we are not planning to develop an AMSEC redundant product like the Duo. It is a niche product with relatively low volume, and the tooling investment could not be supported unless volume were to become significant. The electronics for the Duo system are in the body of the dual-mode lock, and they are only compatible with LaGard or NL Locks Keypads. There is no means to attach any other brand of lock to the redundant lock mechanism. If you prefer a Black Nickel Spy-proof Dial, I'm believe we can accommodate that if it's specified on the order. Your dealer can get a you price for that option. As for the LGBasic Keypad, you can have them inquire on a color match for that too, but I don't know if LaGard makes the LGBasic Keypad in Black Nickel. It's probably available, but likely both the dial and keypad are special order items and we could not guarantee a good color match to the other hardware. Is the LaGard Lock Duo actually worthy of the BF line? You've established a pattern of not specifically condemning others, but if you think I should reconsider the Lock Duo please IM me and point me in the direction of where I can research credible info on the subject. I think the Duo is fine. The redundancy gives you the opportunity to deal with any malfunctions. The NL Duo lock is new to us, so we don't have any service history that indicates there may or may not be reliability issues. The electronics inside are proven to be good, as they are the same as the electronics in the rest of the keypad lock products. Yeah, I expected there wasn't a AMSEC version of the Duo, nor one in the near future. But now I know for sure. Ideally, I like to invest locally. So the only place I found was a locksmith listed on AMSEC's site and called them for advice on where to buy a safe. That's when they informed me that they sell safes. So I visited their showroom and found a BF6030 priced way above online listings I'd seen. When the local guy is selling stuff more than 10% over what I can order elsewhere, they start to lose me. But what was worse was that the lady trying to sell me the safe was no more helpful than me just reading the AMSEC catalog that I'd already downloaded. I need to know that I'm getting better local support and knowledgeable people to justify paying more locally. And the more I talked to her the more I realized that it just wasn't the place for me to do business with. I thanked her for her time and moved on. Her follow up call later only confirmed my first impressions. So I'm going to order online. I found a much better deal online, delivered right to my garage. I think I'll just suck it up and go with the Lock Duo as is. I'm not so much concerned about paying a little more than the listed price, but I suspect that if I try to venture outside of the established options, it may just cause delays and still not have it just the way I like. I'm just trying to imagine if the Granite, Black Nickel, and the chrome LG Basic on the Duo will be a handsome look all together. I usually avoid being an early adopter of new technology, but the redundant lock really appeals to me. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if a better redundant version comes out later I can likely replace the lock, dial, and keypad, right? |
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Posted: 3/6/2014 12:10:29 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmedAndFree: Correct me if I'm wrong, but if a better redundant version comes out later I can likely replace the lock, dial, and keypad, right? You can always change these locks out for a host of alternate types... |
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Posted: 3/6/2014 12:15:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#37]
Thought I would make this signature thing look a little more professional. My handwriting sucks with a paint pen. Here is the dressing plate I printed on our 3D Plastic Printer. This one says "TSG Special. I have one that says "Special Edition" for those that don't care to have my silly mark on their safe.
This one is for JakeA, a Granite BF7250 
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CA, USA
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Posted: 3/6/2014 8:25:16 PM EDT
[#38]
Very cool.
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 3/6/2014 10:52:38 PM EDT
[#39]
Nice! IM sent.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/7/2014 12:35:33 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Believe it or not, there are a lot of feet-on-the-ground people out here in the Peoples Repubic of Kalifornia. We try as hard as we can to take down the liberal Fruits and Nuts that run this state, but we're sorely outnumbered. It's been a steep downhill slide ever since Ronnie left us for the White House. The wealth of Industry and Silicon Valley corrupted the politicians and look where it landed. This state is gone, off the deep end, and no remote chance of a recovery. We proudly own 1/2 of the Welfare cases in the country, and ALL of the worst liberal left wing gun grabbing female congressmen. They are letting all the illegals make it home, and now Spanish is fast becoming the official state language. It's a tragedy, and no matter how much effort we put in, we get smashed. Every year gets even worse. The bleeding heart uber-liberal tree huggers, all a bunch of eco-terrorists hell-bent on turning this state back into a field of daises and roses, are strangling manufacturing with taxes and mega-regulation. If you want to see where Obama and company can take us, just look to this state and Illinois for a perfect view into the future. It's truly a shame.I used to love this state... if it weren't for career and family, i would move to Texas. Here is my newest toy I just finished building, AR-15 chambered for 7.62x39. Damn, it's sweet! http://<a href=http://i1363.photobucket.com/albums/r703/TheSafeGuy/762x39AR_zpsa50e7f47.jpg I know the feeling of being surrounded by fools. I grew up in Memphis. It may very well be that I appreciate Texas more than native Texans because I grew up in the bluest town in Tennessee. I came along just in time to spend most of my life witnessing my hometown decay into the worst that American society has to offer. My parents were naively unaware that they were raising their kids in a ground-0 town for developing socialism in America. Whenever we could afford it we would move in what I now see was a futile attempt to escape the blight that swept the majority of the county as the city annexed over the years. Now most of the people that would sustain a good community have moved to adjacent counties or north MS, or like me a different region all together. Any objective observer can see how these Marxist/Socialist intitlements have rotted society at its very core. A cycle is established where people are reduced to kept animal behavior. When g-money is made so readily available to undisciplined ladies looking for love but finding only a boy in a man's body looking for quick gratification, instead of a man being valued as a husband and father he is reduced to a wandering sperm distributor. And with no field to tend and wife and children to love daily, he often indulges himself in ways that harm others and bring no real satisfaction in life. Then we have women with children from various uncommitted sperm distributors now dependent on feeding at the government trough and now beholden to the corrupt bureaucrats that control the rate of feed. The corrupt bureaucrat is happy to oblige because the woman holds the currency that he(or she) needs to stay in power; her vote and influence on the next generation. No problem for the bureaucrat, he has control of a massive supply of money that doesn't belong to him to purchase all the votes he needs to stay in power. And the next generation grows up without a unified mother and father, often repeating the cycle as failures in life. Meanwhile they're encouraged to envy, hate, and conspire against those who work hard and succeed. Memphis reached a tipping point about 20yrs ago where the majority is composed of a easily-manipulated victim-minded entitlement class of voters. All a politician needs do to be elected in Memphis is race-bait then use the resulting paranoia like a handle to guide that voter block wherever they want. If it weren't for FedEx, Memphis would already be South Detroit. I had a successful business along with family that was holding me there. When I found an opportunity to transition to a new career in TX, I pounced on it. I do miss my family, but I don't regret moving away. I just couldn't take it any more. BTW, I miss Ronnie, too! As a young fella, I mistakenly assumed that was the standard I could expect for a President. Now the question is, will the majority of Texans be arrogant enough to believe that what happened to Cali can't happen in TX? My fellow Texans better wise up and stand against the movement afoot to turn TX blue. Alright, I'll step off my soapbox now and get back to fun stuff, like guns and fancy boxes to put 'em in. Nice looking 7.62. I may try a build after I get my safe. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/7/2014 12:48:00 AM EDT
[#41]
Alright. Duo it is.
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Thought I would make this signature thing look a little more professional. My handwriting sucks with a paint pen. Here is the dressing plate I printed on our 3D Plastic Printer. This one says "TSG Special. I have one that says "Special Edition" for those that don't care to have my silly mark on their safe. |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 3/8/2014 4:48:09 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Excellent points. We have been toying with the idea of moving the locking point away from the spindle, but there is still a strong base of customers that prefer the mechanical lock. We still see more than 40% of safes in all classes leaving the factory equipped with the old trusty mechanical combo lock. Face it, even when a proven reliable lock is available like the ESL10 or ESL20, the general feeling is influenced by all the horror stories and so many other brands that just plain suck. your own dealers lobby hard against electronic locks. they are contributing to the problem. when i told one of your local premier dealers i was interested in an electronic lock, they argued vehemently against it, even implying they would not service it under warranty. |
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Posted: 3/8/2014 9:33:08 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bani:
your own dealers lobby hard against electronic locks. they are contributing to the problem. when i told one of your local premier dealers i was interested in an electronic lock, they argued vehemently against it, even implying they would not service it under warranty. We always joke that Locksmiths are like elephants. They have one bad experience back in 1992, and they never forget. Back in the 80's, LaGard introduced their first mechanical lock. They made a poor choice of materials on the wheels in the lock, and the design was "radical" in the eyes of the old crusty Locksmiths. The lock had a rash of wheel slip issues that lasted for a long time, and there were a lot of safe lockouts. There are still a lot of Locksmiths today that won't buy LaGard, even though that problem was resolved two decades ago and they have been mostly trouble free ever since. The knowledge is handed down, as that is a discipline that is mostly learned by working under an experienced mentor. As the teacher teaches, so he passes on the ideals and loyalties of his past. It's a closed community, and a little quirky sometimes too. Don't ever do them wrong, they will never forgive. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/8/2014 1:58:39 PM EDT
[#44]
Thanks to TSG and all the others who contributed to this very informative (and very long) thread! I'm so glad I found it before making another purchase!
How many guns are you guys fitting into your BF6636's and BF7240's? I'm currently looking to store about 18 long guns, including 6 bolt action, scoped rifles and 3 pistol grip rifles. The rest are non-scoped rifles and shotguns. Thanks, PWR |
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NH, USA
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Posted: 3/8/2014 7:16:08 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
We always joke that Locksmiths are like elephants. They have one bad experience back in 1992, and they never forget. Back in the 80's, LaGard introduced their first mechanical lock. They made a poor choice of materials on the wheels in the lock, and the design was "radical" in the eyes of the old crusty Locksmiths. The lock had a rash of wheel slip issues that lasted for a long time, and there were a lot of safe lockouts. There are still a lot of Locksmiths today that won't buy LaGard, even though that problem was resolved two decades ago and they have been mostly trouble free ever since. The knowledge is handed down, as that is a discipline that is mostly learned by working under an experienced mentor. As the teacher teaches, so he passes on the ideals and loyalties of his past. It's a closed community, and a little quirky sometimes too. Don't ever do them wrong, they will never forgive. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By bani:
your own dealers lobby hard against electronic locks. they are contributing to the problem. when i told one of your local premier dealers i was interested in an electronic lock, they argued vehemently against it, even implying they would not service it under warranty. We always joke that Locksmiths are like elephants. They have one bad experience back in 1992, and they never forget. Back in the 80's, LaGard introduced their first mechanical lock. They made a poor choice of materials on the wheels in the lock, and the design was "radical" in the eyes of the old crusty Locksmiths. The lock had a rash of wheel slip issues that lasted for a long time, and there were a lot of safe lockouts. There are still a lot of Locksmiths today that won't buy LaGard, even though that problem was resolved two decades ago and they have been mostly trouble free ever since. The knowledge is handed down, as that is a discipline that is mostly learned by working under an experienced mentor. As the teacher teaches, so he passes on the ideals and loyalties of his past. It's a closed community, and a little quirky sometimes too. Don't ever do them wrong, they will never forgive. I'm a Locksmith and my boss told me this exact same story. He's been in business since the mid 80's. Thanks for all the information you've been pouring into this thread, We only stock Amsec gun safes and our customers love them. |
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Posted: 3/8/2014 8:42:01 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GraniteStateMike:
I'm a Locksmith and my boss told me this exact same story. He's been in business since the mid 80's. That's funny. I rest my case.... |
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Posted: 3/9/2014 4:29:46 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Thought I would make this signature thing look a little more professional. My handwriting sucks with a paint pen. Here is the dressing plate I printed on our 3D Plastic Printer. This one says "TSG Special. I have one that says "Special Edition" for those that don't care to have my silly mark on their safe. This one is for JakeA, a Granite BF7250 http://<a href=http://i1363.photobucket.com/albums/r703/TheSafeGuy/TSGSig_zps4a43f802.jpg Is the 4 guage the 'special' part or is there something else? 
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Posted: 3/9/2014 10:24:46 AM EDT
[#48]
Yes...
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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/9/2014 1:18:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: PWR]
[#49]
What would you estimate the door of the BF7240 weighs by itself?
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WA, USA
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Posted: 3/9/2014 8:49:23 PM EDT
[#50]
any pictures of an amsec with installed duo lock yet? or i'm guessing nobody has ordered one yet...
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