I am less constrained by money (though not rolling in it) than space and structural strength.  Anything I get would have to be moved down a flight of stairs into a basement.  I've been looking at the BF7420 with the 4 gauge liners, but the folks who sell them locally (two dealers) have advised me that they will not move anything over 1000 lbs down a flight of steps.  Is there a special job name or listing for people who can move heavy things down steps?  I tried an internet search for 'rigging crews', but all I got was a bunch of crane vendors.  

Plan C is to learn to live with a safe in the garage, though that will not make my wife particularly happy.

There are some safe companies (like myself) that do some rigging work.  There are also companies that specialize in rigging.  Just like real safe companies, riggers tend to be located near the bulk of their work, which is typically in large metro areas.

We limit weight to the same 1,000 pounds when it comes to a typical move.  For an atypical move, nothing is impossible if your budget will allow for it.  Be prepared for some sticker shock if you can find somebody willing to do it.

Usually it is the opposite, wife doesn't want the safe in house. What is your garage issue (if you can comment)?

Hi TSG,

Ok, read through this whole thing, again , just so I could get my head around all of it.  Phew....lot's of great information.  I have some questions on things I don't understand from reading.  Here goes...

1.  Is the ESL lock ever going to be paired with a mechanical lock so that if the electronic lock failed, I could still get to my stuff via the mechanical lock.  After reading your post on EMP, I'm not paranoid about EMP.  I'm more paranoid that I'll forget/misplace the electronic combination or otherwise somehow screw up my ability to get into the safe electronically.

2.  I couldn't find the interior dimensions of the RF6528 or the BF6636.  Will you please provide them?

3.  Does AMSEC offer the ability of having an interior without the standard setup?  I'd like to add or remove shelves/space for long guns as needed.

4.  Called a safe place here in the area (Sacramento), and they steered me towards a Ft. Knox.  He cited a youtube video (http://youtu.be/9buR30A_0lk) of a burn test between a Ft. Knox and another competitor.  It looked impressive but I remember your post about videos and "proof" and was hoping you would shed some light on the video as the BF or RF compare.  

5.  I know that the the RF is UL-listed and that you tested it a the UL lab.  Does UL-listed and UL-listed materials (as noted on the Ft. Knox website) mean the same thing?  A simple yes or no will suffice so that you are not seen as bashing a competitor.

6.  I'm literally a stone's throw away from a fire dept, so fire is not my biggest concern.  My big concern is burglary.   I remember a post in which you indicated that the interior fill of a BF safe really isn't promoted for protection against a serious attack.  If I go away for a week or two, I'd like to have a reasonable assurance that someone with reasonable tools (a little more than a smash and grab; and more time than usual since I'm away) can't readily get into my safe.  After reading the posts and doing more research, I'm convinced that the RF can withstand the type of attack I mention.  I'm not so sure about the BF.  Can you provide a comparison of the BF to a Ft. Knox or Liberty with respect to the (fairly vague) scenario I gave?  I know that with any amount of time, any safe can be compromised, but I'm thinking more along the lines of saws, picks, drills, and the like. Not necessarily a plasma torch.

7.  Sent you a PM.

Again, thanks for the help!

Hi Husker,

There is a separate thread or two on this forum dedicated to fire protection which are very informative and highly recommended. I learned a lot from them.

Security wise the BF with the optional 4g liner offers top end RSC level security but is not as secure as the RF or RFX which are true TL Rated products.

Primary issue is that the garage is already full of cars, woodworking tools, children's toys, and a motorcycle.  It's also outside of the house alarm system, and I don't really want to get sawdust all over it.  We have a perfect alcove for a safe upstairs, except that it is exactly 36.625 inches wide, and we'd have to pry up the baseboards in the hallway and be very, very careful to get it into place.  Neither one of us wanted it to be in the dining room.  So our finished basement seems like the best compromise.

I have what I think is a reasonable budget for purchase and installation at $5K.  I could go over that if need be.  I took careful measurements and know I could get a 6636 around the landing relatively easily.  I asked the most local dealer to me to price me a 6636 with the 4 gauge liner, then do a site survey to see if his company or another he works with would be willing to take the job.  I told him I'd pay up front before he placed the order.  Hasn't called me back in five days, so that may be a soft rejection.

The  rf6528 internal dimensions are 65"h x 28"w x 20" d 9 At least mine is, lol.u

Hi guggep,

Thanks for the reply.  Yep, I checked the rest of the posts in the Armory section on fire protection.  Totally and completely informative (so much that I had to drill a hole in my head and empty it out so I could decide what to have for dinner )

If you know where any more posts on the entire arfcom forum with regards to fire protection, let me know and take I'll take it from there.  I'm completely convinced of the superiority of the AMSEC's fire protection.  The dealer here in Sacramento seemed completely bought in to FT. Knox because of the video, and I'd like to set him straight if I do end up going with him for my AMSEC.  I know TSG can give me a comparison.  I guess I know the answer, but I'd like confirmation that what I see in that video is worse that what I would I see in an RF or BF based on what the video shows.

Disclosure:  I am getting very close to having enough dollars to buy my AMSEC, and that those dollars will not go to anything else but an AMSEC (convinced of that from pretty early on in reading this whole post the first time).

Also, the 4g liner was appealing, but I saw the post from TSG about steel and didn't see the need for an upgrade (even if I do get a BF)



I saw a youtube video here of a guy cutting a piece of 1/2 inch steel with a handheld saw, and like TSG said, I have stopped arguing (in my head) about steel gauge. I was just wondering if TSG has any thoughts of how long it might take to get through a BF as compared to the other competitors (note: this won't change my mind on buying my AMSEC).  I ask this really so that I can justify to the wife, the RF over the BF as it comes to time on the safe and the neighbors hearing the raucous in our bedroom closet when we're on vacation.  Thankfully, my wife is fully bought in to us having good protection, and she is very analytical...so she likes to have a lot of data (I've created a monster as result of my research LOL).  The more I can show her how much better the RF is over the BF over the Liberty over the Ft. Knox (in that order), the closer I am to getting my RF.......YAY ME !

Hey gang, sorry I have been quiet for a little while. Travel and other demands are making time scarce. I'll try to get caught up with questions and PMs soon.

Hi Husker,

Here are some videos that illuminate the value of real TL protection

I recommend that you watch the Security on Sale video of the simulated RSC attack that is all over the internet and then view these two as a comparison to illustrate TL level protection.

UL Meilink TL-30 Safe test video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtbGUbeM860

TL 30x6 testing at VDH Safes Saigon:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztj4lsEdr74  

If you can get the RF / RFX then absolutely get it.  Few people ever look back in time and lament that "I bought a safe that offered too much fire protection, or was too secure"  Many later regret not having enough protection or security.  You do need to be aware that the RF & RFX are not likely going to be able to be placed on the second story of your house unless you have custom built the house to take the load.

I'm not going to lie about Gunsafes and their ability to stand up to advanced tools. That would be disingenuous. The 4 Gauge liner option is being offered because of consumer demand from people right here on ARFCOM. We did this because I was seeing so many people making their buying decisions based on steel thickness, simple and honest. Does two layers of steel make it better, absolutely. Facing that badass metal cutting saw, I would be daffy to try and convince you that the double walled BF with a 4 gauge liner would make a huge difference. It won't.

That kind of attack is not what the Gunsafe market offerings, and the associated price points, can withstand. Remember, this is a market where manufacturers are trying to offer the biggest safe, while consuming the least amount of material possible, so that the price points are not absurd and out of reach to the average consumer. A cutter like that will breech any plate steel thickness in fairly short order, and the fact that there are two layers separated by insulation only slows that toy down a little bit. If you want to survive an attack of that caliber, you are definitely not shopping the right class of product when you are comparing sheet metal safes made by all the mentioned sheet metal bending manufacturers. That is no less than a TL15 or TL30 class of attack, and even then it's not going much beyond the rated times. That kind of attack merits a commercial quality six-sided safe that costs many times what these Gunsafes sell for. If you feel your security risk includes tools like that, you better reconsider your budget.

Without giving up secrets, the TL30x6 safe has construction features and materials that make that tool pretty ineffective. There are goodies in that fill that address that kind of attack, and that blade will be destroyed in the first few minutes of cutting. Bring lots of blades, and even then there are physical design measures that make good deep cuts very difficult to exploit. Again, it's all about time. Given enough time and  an unlimited supply of fresh blades, even the TL30x6 will yield to that attack. Consider the cut depth of a tool. If the wall thickness is not greater than the tool's potential cut depth, there is little hope of long term survival unless the materials are more durable than just steel. The simple and popular Sawzall with an 8-inch steel cutting blade will breach any gunsafe body in just a few minutes if used properly. Those pictures that circulate with a big gaping hole cut in the side are going to happen to Gunsafes if the bad-guy is smart and applies the right methods. Please don't fool yourselves.

Again, this is a matter of risk assessment vs your budget constraints. Every thing is a compromise, just on different levels. If you can't afford the right safe for the potential risk, then consider the annual costs of additional insurance to back up your budget minded purchase. I am never going to compete in the Indy 500 if my budget only allows me a used Porsche.

No. I think I said it somewhere else maybe, but the small market volume this represents does not warrant the investment in tooling, testing and precious Engineering resources.



All of that information is available on our website. If you go to the "Products - Download Catalog" page you can get much more detailed specifications.



I'm not sure if you understand the interiors we already supply. They are "AIO" style, or all-in-one. There are cover plates over the rack, and movable side shelving. You can configure most interiors in three different ways, and some even more. Download the Gunsafe Catalog and you will see a lot more information on how all that works.



Ft. Knox makes a fine product, that's the truth. However, when you are looking at evidence to come to a verdict, a video without any real data is pretty subjective. The video you refer to has no empirical proof that there were truly severe conditions imposed. That safe was a conventional gypsum board lined product I believe, which is not a bad protection system, we sell many models of similar construction. What I will say, without any reservations, is that the poured monolithic and highly engineered fire protection of the BF is far superior. I have already posted results from competitive testing. I'm not saying any of those safes were a Ft. Knox. But, consider the fact that every one of those competitors safes that we tested fell way short of the ratings. I think it's fair to say that the competitive products were never tested, or someone is intentionally deceiving consumers. I'm not saying that Ft. Knox is making similar unfounded claims, but have you seen any test data? I have put the real graphs out there for all to see.

Moreover, that safe we watched burn was in a hallway of sorts, and there was a clear line of sight from outside. Seems to me that is an entry point for a lot of cooler air to feed the flames inside that building. How many fire tests do you suppose we conduct with the doors to the furnace left open? I'm just pointing out the elephant in the room. Without real data that measures exposure, we have no idea how harsh the exposure might have been. The safe did very well in those conditions... but what were the conditions? If I were going to stage a house fire to showcase my fire resistance, I would surely have put instrumentation on the safes. If they did, then why didn't they share it?



No, and I don't think they intended to mislead the consumer with that statement. We all use UL Listed drywall. It's a matter of assuring that we maintain a degree of quality control by using materials that will meet certain established performance standards with consistency. It would be deception if they claimed the materials have some inherent high temperature tolerance, and they try to imply that is the tolerance of the safe as an assembly is similar because one of the many the materials had such a tolerance. There are those that play that game, I think Ft. Knox has far more integrity and understanding than that.

This all rolls back to the conversation about tools. If we are comparing one safe to another and using small hand tools, there would be differences, depending on which models you put up against the BF. Both of those companies make heavy duty safes with similar construction materials. But again, a few minutes one way or the other, is it really worth debating? 11 gauge vs 10 gauge, or 7 Gauge vs 4 gauge, really... the differences are there, but is that difference enough to endure an attack long enough to discourage an attacker?

Keep in mind the way you work to solve a problem. When you can't break the thing with a small hammer, you seek a bigger hammer, right? So, if my safe is better, and the attacker sees he is not making good progress, does he continue, or does he seek a better tool? How do you measure that?

Real burglaries don't happen in a lab where the tools are limited and the methods are restricted. I simply can't answer this with a genuine and honest answer, because it's too subjective. I could simply say yes, mine is better, go buy it if you really are concerned with security. But, I promised honesty on page 1 of this thread, and I intend to keep that promise. If you want better, then step up to a rating where it's certified to be better, then rest assured you have made a good choice to invest and not look back with regret.

Well, my third local AmSec dealer advised they wouldn't do stairs for a BF6636 either, so I am now looking at the garage.  I suppose the upside is size and weight are no longer a factor.  Now looking at the RF series.  Definitely not going to order from the guy who never returned my call, though.

I'm deeply disappointed, because amongst other things, I wanted any thief to go through the same process of lugging their stuff and mine up and down the steps as I do now.  Also not wild about having it in the same place with my Sawzall, torch, and other tools.  If they are going to take my stuff, I feel they should at least have to bring their own tools to do it.

Build a cabinet around your garage safe (I did), with some thought it looks just like any other garage storage cabinet. You can add a dedicated alarm to your new garage cabinet for about $150 bucks (a good one for that price like Ademco).Remember to bolt your new safe to the concrete.

ETA, get a small jobbox at Home Depot for the torch, sawzall, etc

1.) get the RF (RFX) if at all possible. The peace of mind when you're away is priceless.

2.) always store your torch tips and sawzall blades (or its removable cord) IN the safe.

Room inside a safe always becomes scarce. I personally would budget enough money to buy/build a caged locking mechanism for all power and hand tools. Another option would be to build a storage room in your garage and keep them all in there. Ensure that it is a reinforced door with strong walls (not just drywall). Take a walk around your property and try to envision ANY items that can be used as tools to access your home or the locked up goodies: bricks, metal stakes, garden tools, the garden gnome in your front yard, the cement base for the birdbath, etc. Criminals may be fools for what they do but sure seems to have a wild imagination.

cfx in my crib - i have piece of mind... didnt set the alarm - not problem... i have cameras and other goodies ready to go...  safe took 2 + hours to even get into position... now that i finalized its install its going to take a shit load longer than 2 hours to have it going anywhere.

if you cant have something go upstairs - who cares. just be creative and build it into the architecture on other floor.  its funny how easy a 4500 pound safe can disapear :-D

TSG, thanks again for the honest feedback...solidifies a reason I'm going with AMSEC.  Now just a little while longer, and RF here you come!!


Would love to get the RFX (the big one, but don't have enough shiny pennies for that one).  But maybe a CFX?????????


Yep, I didn't think so either.  Thanks for helping me understand.

But maybe a CFX?????????

A TL30X6, you can get one of these in a smaller size (less $ for smaller) than the big RF6528, you would be surprised how much you can sandwich into a CFX452020.

JohnnyEgo, send me a PM with your city. I am sure our sales or service teams can make a recommendation for a rigger. We makes these kinds of arrangements every day. Maybe there is a good resource in your area. They may be expensive, but they are out there.

Mr. TSG, just want to thank you (especially) and others on this forum for the invaluable advice. I was stuck in Google/Yahoo land trying to edumacate myself on buying a safe. I was very close to buying-@ a big box- and then found the light thanks to you all. I have narrowed it down to an RFX and in 2nd place maybe an Original Platinum Tl30x6. Would it be possible for you to provide some comparison points and any relevant info on this matter. Another problem I have is the dealer contacts provided by the Amsec site for the Myrtle Beach area did not pan out- disconnected numbers and the 1 person I did talk to said I can order an Amsec and they will deliver to my curb, just what I need a3500lb safe at my curb-think anyone will notice? Since this home is new construction and I live in the people' republic of Ct. I don't have the slightest idea of who to call for install. I can purchase safe online but then I'm stuck. Would you be able to provide me with sales and or rigging contacts for the Myrtle Beach, S.C. area.
I am 95% sold on the RFX 582820 and possibly getting a TSG dressing plate would seal the deal, if I am not being to presumptuous. In fact, I kind of like your original handwritten signature. Any and all info you can provide would be greatly appreciated. Thanks TSG.

Anybody have any info on Myrtle Beach S.C. vicinity Amsec. dealers or safe installers, movers?

Suggest you also post this question in S.C. Hometown Forum.

Wow..just finished reading this thread a little at a time from page 1 over the last month or so.  TSG and everyone else with advice and good questions, thanks.

Just an FYI..when you use the "compare" feature on the website for the BF line, it still shows the fire rating at 90-minutes.   Unless I'm mistaken, I think the BF line was upgraded to 2-hour recently?

Thanks for the heads-up. I am told the new Website is launching any day, so they are doing very little to maintain the current site. Let's hope it's good...

I have the query out to the field team, we should get recommendations.

TSG,

My BF safe arrived at my LSS (with a little road rash).  While they're working out the repair, it sits exactly as it arrived and I am not yet able to see the back side.

Can you tell me what the power port on the back side is, please?  Is it a C14 (Male) Socket, a NEMA 1-15 Socket or a NEMA 5-15 Socket?  Something else?

How deeply is the socket recessed?  (And will a standard R- or L- angle plug work with it?)

I hope to be able to get a Cat 5 cable in there somehow.

Thanks,

JakeA

So your safe was damaged in transit??

Sorry the delivery got botched up...

It's a NEMA  IEC320 C13 to NEMA 5-15P right angle cable like a computer uses. It is recessed so only the cable part is outside, and it's protected by the port's shell, so you can push it up to a wall without damage. The cable type is (included) similar to this:

Phil Ashley with A.L.S. Safe & Lock Company based out of Landrum, SC.  864-895-6530 mobile or 864-895-9839 office.

Travis Hunt with A Lock & Safe Doctor based out of Macon, GA, 478-320-0255

...

heeler1,

Yep, it was.  The safe was on the edge of the pallet and was scraped against something hard enough to rip off two sections of the stout cardboard, each approx 1' in area.  The paint was marred on both.  No dings of any kind that I could see, though.

Some points:
 1) Luckily it was on the back of the safe and won't be visible when the safe is installed
 2) I expect the touch up paint will cover it up - and at least protect the base metal
 3) AMSEC is working with my LSS to come up with a solution acceptable to all

TSG,

Thanks for the information.  That's exactly what I was looking for.  Now off to find one long enough.

JakeA

I want to thank TheSafeGuy for all the great info in this thread. I feel like I have gone through Safe 101.  I placed my order for my BF7240 last week with my local dealer Security Safe in Hayward CA.

cj_the_pj, on your cfx, did you change out the steel shelves that TSG mentioned come standard, or did you buy it that way?
Thanks!

I got a CFX outside with the "RFX" inside basically... just told the guy i wanted gunsafe interior


bolt down, relocker, aux lock, escutcheon plate, etc etc...

but added the interior with lights and power.

CJ & TSG,

I noticed from the picture that your unit had a Door Organizer.  It looked to be built into the door panel and not one of the clip on after thoughts.  Was that an AMSEC option and does such a thing exist for an RF.

I am not even sure the RF has room for it but yours does look nice

Thanks

door unit organizer is a amsec thing i just asked for it - if it fits RF i dont know.  i cant put a rifle in the right slot on the door organizer as if i close it it bumps the shelves.

the door on the RFX is on a hinge(piano style) and screwed down all around... that organizer is screwed into that access panel basically and if you unscrew the top bottom and right it swings open... it isnt clipped - its actually screwed on.

I am checking on this. I'm not sure anyone has ever ordered a CFX with a PDO before, so they probably didn't think about the clearance issue.

Welcome to the site, that is a very good company to do business with.

Hi TSG,

Could you check on the clearance for an RF.  It would be nice to have a PDO that was factory and not a clip on that looked aftermarket.

I don't think the RF does have much room between the door & shelves, but it would be nice to have a definitive opinion.

Thanks

If anyone is getting an AMSEC BF with the power port, long versions of the appropriate cable are available from monoprice.com in various lengths.

I ordered the 15' cord (part # 7682) for $5.31 + shipping.  I probably don't need a 16AWG cord given the amount of power that will go through it, but it was only $1.50 more than the 18AWG cord.

JakeA

Due to following this thread I ordered the PS1210HD AND MAN, I am impressed.
This thing is built WAYYYY heavier than ANY of  the pistol safes I've seen and the Simplex lock
is a little masterpiece all by itself.
I have been looking for a serious quick-access pistol safe to replace the 'tin box pop-top' pos
that I have. It's one of those that will open if struck on one corner just right.
This 1210 lets me rest easy when the grandkids and their friends are at the house.
And THAT is priceless.

That endorsement is priceless, thanks. Here are the shots I promised of the PS1210HD. These features qualify this products to be called a Pistol Safe, as opposed to a Pistol Box, and make it one of a kind in the industry.

This shows one of the two heavy Deadbars that swing up under a heavy formed flange in the body to prevent door removal if the hinge is compromised. This is a first in Pistol Containers.



Here is the Lock Enclosure. The 5-sided shell consists of a cover and welded base frame that completely encloses the Simplex push-button lock. Most people don't know that the Simplex Lock is highly vulnerable to punch attack, and it's pretty easy to defeat with a screwdriver and a few swings of a claw hammer. This Patent Pending cage around the lock makes it highly punch resistant. Since there are no better non-electronic push-button locks available for this market segment, the solution to it's inherent weakness is to make the lock better by reinforcing it.



See the 1/4" hole in the end of that enclosure? That is where you use a probe to press the change button to set your combination without removing the cover. Any short rigid object can be used to depress the change button.

Also notice the massive solid brass locking bolt, measuring 1/2" thick and 1-1/2 inches long. This make this safe virtually impossible to pry open.

Innovation... that's what decades of high security experience brings.

AMSEC leading the way.  TSG, please make this same product with a "front" door design. My best choice at the time was from Ft. Knox, but I would gladly buy the AMSEC version. Thanks.

TSG

i can fit something on the PDO on the left - but that side i have opened up from shelves to stand up rifles so there is a space there - however with my SBR on the right... it hits the shelves and wont close - no big deal i just lay it on the shelf as its all short and fits.  

im sure they didnt do the clearance planning though :-D

-BK

This thread has been absolutely fascinating to read.  TSG, the amount of time and generosity you have demonstrated in responding to questions and sharing your knowledge is unheard of.  Thank you!

While we are on the subject of small handgun safes, I recently purchased and AMSEC MS1414.  Per the recommendations in this thread, I went with an ESX10XL electronic lock.  I have been extremely happy with the safe and with the 1/2" plate door, UL listed electronic lock, and relocker, it is world's better than any of the lock boxes or small safes found in big box stores.  I have small kids in the home and the MS1414 gives me the confidence that my handgun is secure.

I do have one quick question.  On safes such as the MS1414, what prevents handle pressure from being transmitted to the bolt-work?  Is the handle designed to slip or is something designed to give in the event of excessive handle pressure in an attack?  Thanks for your time!

Yep, the handle arbor slips.

That's correct. the Handle Driver clamps onto the handle shaft, and the clamping bolt is torqued to a fixed specification. The clamping force should allow slippage at around 60-65 ft-lbs of torque on the handle.

Yea, we have an Engineering inquisition going down now, we'll get some answers.