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USA
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Posted: 3/23/2014 11:20:33 AM EDT
[#1]
Thank you. I'm also looking for a small closet Fire/Burglary safe. I'm either looking at a BF2116, CSC3018, or even a small Amvault. In regards to the first two, I know that the fill material changed since you originally designed the CSC. How does the CSC compare to the BF security line? Is there any appreciable difference in burglary resistance between the CSC and BF? I know the BF has a 1/2 inch plate steel door. I'm not sure about the CSC. It sounds like the fill material is similar but mainly tailored towards fire resistance instead of burglary protection. What about fire resistance? I know the BF has a 1 hr UL rating and the CSC has a 2 hour "factory" rating. How would they compare on equal terms? I live in a house with an alarm so maybe I'm over-thinking this, but just wondered if one offers particularly better burglary/fire protection over the other. Once again, thank you for your expertise!
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Posted: 3/23/2014 11:38:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MattK2:
Thank you. I'm also looking for a small closet Fire/Burglary safe. I'm either looking at a BF2116, CSC3018, or even a small Amvault. In regards to the first two, I know that the fill material changed since you originally designed the CSC. How does the CSC compare to the BF security line? Is there any appreciable difference in burglary resistance between the CSC and BF? I know the BF has a 1/2 inch plate steel door. I'm not sure about the CSC. It sounds like the fill material is similar but mainly tailored towards fire resistance instead of burglary protection. What about fire resistance? I know the BF has a 1 hr UL rating and the CSC has a 2 hour "factory" rating. How would they compare on equal terms? I live in a house with an alarm so maybe I'm over-thinking this, but just wondered if one offers particularly better burglary/fire protection over the other. Once again, thank you for your expertise! The CSC is a nice safe for the money. It does have the RSC label, but it does not have a 1/2 door plate. Don't quote me on specs, I am going from memory... The CSC is two layers of 3 mm Steel in the door and body (equal to 11 gauge). The CSC is filled with a fire fill similar to our BF Security Safe line, not the BF Gunsafe line. Still not a burglary barrier, but heavier with thicker walls. The CSC carries a 350 degree 2-hour fire rating at the higher 1700º test exposure, since it has the thicker walls and a more dense fill. So, the CSC is a better firesafe by some margin. It is probably about equivalent to a BF with regards to security. It is a great value safe, but the import quality is not quite as good as the domestically made BF lines. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 3/23/2014 3:58:28 PM EDT
[#3]
Hi all,
So, I have a dilemma... the wonderful folks who put this house together made the interior door jambs a whole 29 inches wide. While that is great for people, it's not so great for getting a safe into the bedroom. My question: when the safe (RF/RFX or CF/CFX or BF) is delivered, are the handle and keypad installed. If so, how difficult would it be to uninstall them, and put them back on when the safe is put in its final resting place? I already know that I am going to have to take the jamb out just to get it into my house. I need to know if I'm going to have to remove the whole door frame for the clearance (would like to avoid that if at all possible!) Thanks! |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 3/23/2014 5:48:53 PM EDT
[#4]
with the external hinges you can just have the door removed and re installed,not really a huge deal if you are using a professional safe mover,i would think this is much simpler than truing to disassemble the actual mechanics of the safe
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Posted: 3/23/2014 5:57:43 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Huskerfan4evr:
Hi all, So, I have a dilemma... the wonderful folks who put this house together made the interior door jambs a whole 29 inches wide. While that is great for people, it's not so great for getting a safe into the bedroom. My question: when the safe (RF/RFX or CF/CFX or BF) is delivered, are the handle and keypad installed. If so, how difficult would it be to uninstall them, and put them back on when the safe is put in its final resting place? I already know that I am going to have to take the jamb out just to get it into my house. I need to know if I'm going to have to remove the whole door frame for the clearance (would like to avoid that if at all possible!) Thanks! If you are buying a real safe, like a TL, you better make sure the dealer is able and willing to put in where you intend. I see words like CFX, and bedroom and I see serious issues. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 3/23/2014 7:49:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Huskerfan4evr]
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By icecold1:
with the external hinges you can just have the door removed and re installed,not really a huge deal if you are using a professional safe mover,i would think this is much simpler than truing to disassemble the actual mechanics of the safe Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By icecold1:
with the external hinges you can just have the door removed and re installed,not really a huge deal if you are using a professional safe mover,i would think this is much simpler than truing to disassemble the actual mechanics of the safe Thanks! I wouldn't have even thought to ask a mover. I remember seeing a post that TSG, and I think a few others, made (I'll have to find it in this thread) about removing the door by yourself (edit: after scrolling through all 45 pages, it appears you all were talking about a vault door). So, TSG, what do you think about removing a door to get it into a room? I don't think anyone mentioned a professional mover (a1abdj, bgene, tsg, anyone else...any thoughts). Originally Posted By BGENE:
If you are buying a real safe, like a TL, you better make sure the dealer is able and willing to put in where you intend. I see words like CFX, and bedroom and I see serious issues. Can you help me with a little more on the specifics? What type of issues do you see (I'm still learning all of this wonderful stuff  )?
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NV, USA
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Posted: 3/23/2014 8:43:49 PM EDT
[#7]
if you really want something somewhere and you have to have it become a fixture of the house to last 30 years or something... just hire a contractor to gut the walls and get it where it has to go and do the patch work after the fact.. the money will be spent... but it could be an upsell with passing the house off in the future....its all about what you want... anything is possible in 'Merica with some green. will it be difficult yes... will people want to make a buck off you having what you want --- yes.
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USA
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Posted: 3/24/2014 9:39:41 PM EDT
[#8]
Hey TSG. I'm having a bit of trouble deciding on my first safe, and I was hoping you could help me a bit. I've narrowed it down to the following:
Liberty Lincoln 25 Ft Knox M2 6031 AMSEC BF6032 The Liberty seems like a great value, but part of me is a little skeptical of how hard they push the marketing. I know the AMSEC is the best for fire, but it seems a tad small, and I can't quite afford to bump up to the 6030. The Ft Knox seems like a good compromise with more room and more steel. I'm kind of torn between the three. What's your honest opinion? If you want to be totally honest, feel free to give me your AMSEC sales pitch over PM. Thanks! |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 3/24/2014 10:54:18 PM EDT
[#9]
In checking West Coast Safes website the 6030 is only $250 more than the M2.
If you count the cost to add a door organizer to the M2 the 6030 is only $100 more. Spending the $100 to get what you want is worth it |
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USA
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Posted: 3/24/2014 11:10:41 PM EDT
[#10]
Indeed. I was going off another site. Also, adding in shipping and installation, the 6030 is still kinda steep. I can get a somewhat decent local deal on the M2 that makes it considerably cheaper, including installation. Also also, maybe this is a little ridiculous, but how much weight is too much for a wood floor? I'm renting a house, and if I were to try and squeeze a safe into my closet, it'd be sitting on a bamboo floor. That doesn't seem very safe when you're talking about 7,8,900 pounds.
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Posted: 3/25/2014 9:28:22 AM EDT
[#11]
No need to worry about floor loading. We don't sell a safe that pushes those limits. That's not a concern.
I am not here to sell safes. I think I have made that clear. Both Liberty and Ft Knox make fine safes. I think we make a better product and exceed all the claims and ratings put forth. That is questionable with some other brands. I can tell you that AMSEC will provide you the best long term service in the market, bar none. You have a budget, and you have shopped to the degree that you have a short list of choices. Put them on a page side by side, listing the features that are most important to you, and pick your favorite. I'm not going to argue that a 1/2" plate door is so much better than a 3/8" door that you would be better off. That's a judgement for you to make, so make it. I'm sure you will be happy with whatever you decide. |
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Posted: 3/25/2014 9:34:48 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Huskerfan4evr:
Hi all, So, I have a dilemma... the wonderful folks who put this house together made the interior door jambs a whole 29 inches wide. While that is great for people, it's not so great for getting a safe into the bedroom. My question: when the safe (RF/RFX or CF/CFX or BF) is delivered, are the handle and keypad installed. If so, how difficult would it be to uninstall them, and put them back on when the safe is put in its final resting place? I already know that I am going to have to take the jamb out just to get it into my house. I need to know if I'm going to have to remove the whole door frame for the clearance (would like to avoid that if at all possible!) Thanks! You would be amazed at how a good installer can track a safe thru a door opening and get past a tight spot. If the hinge side is angled thru the doorway and then the safe is rotated into a straight path, the hinges are rarely a factor. The dial and handle hub don't stick out nearly as much., and the door is recessed 1/4". I doubt you will have any trouble getting it thru the opening and you won't need to disassemble anything. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 3/25/2014 9:54:37 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
I doubt you will have any trouble getting it thru the opening and you won't need to disassemble anything. Many thanks!! |
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USA
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Posted: 3/27/2014 8:11:44 PM EDT
[#14]
I pulled the trigger today on an AmVault CE2518 in Textured Granite with an ESL-10XL lock. This should exceed my security needs for the time being. Thanks to everyone who has contributed on this forum, especially, TSG. I've learned a lot over the last several months.
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Posted: 3/28/2014 12:36:16 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MattK2:
I pulled the trigger today on an AmVault CE2518 in Textured Granite with an ESL-10XL lock. This should exceed my security needs for the time being. Thanks to everyone who has contributed on this forum, especially, TSG. I've learned a lot over the last several months. That's a nice step up from a CSC. You won't be disappointed, that is a perfect size safe for home. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 3/29/2014 2:29:33 PM EDT
[#16]
Hi.
I am new to this forum. I joined after finding this discussion. I have a few questions if you don't mind. A 350 degree internal temperature and the resulting release of steam into the internal area of a safe would be almost as destructive to my collection as the fire itself. Many guns in my collection came in gutta percha cases (one of the first plastics I suppose circa 1860's) or are historically significant. I called a friend who is a plumbing contractor. My water supply lines run over my office and he is going to install a sprinkler head in the closet where the safes are going that activates at 135 degrees. I am now thinking for my needs the Amsec TL-30x6 45x20 with shelves and a BF gun safe would be a good fit. I live in town about four blocks from a fire station. Do you think the sprinkler would be effective in keeping the internal temperature of these safe down so that my collection would not be damaged by heat and steam? Would water be a problem and if so, is there anything I can do to try to keep it out of the safes? Can a TL-30x6 be ordered with electrical run in? I realize that sort of defeats a purpose in a way but would also like to store a hard drive in there. Thanks. Bob |
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Posted: 3/30/2014 12:59:03 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By the3rdman:
Do you think the sprinkler would be effective in keeping the internal temperature of these safe down so that my collection would not be damaged by heat and steam? Would water be a problem and if so, is there anything I can do to try to keep it out of the safes? Can a TL-30x6 be ordered with electrical run in? I realize that sort of defeats a purpose in a way but would also like to store a hard drive in there. I would think that sprinklers that are properly placed and working to keep the fire from enveloping the safe would be an excellent measure, assuming the fire doesn't take out the sprinkler system by the time emergency response is on site and controlling the blaze. I would not be concerned with water getting inside, not an issue. A power access port is not going to defeat the fire protection of a CFX safe, nor any other fire safe that has ample hygroscopic steam stores. The slight positive pressure in the safe always vents and cools the small openings and preserves most of the materials passing thru the port. The CFX Wall is thick, so the BF Power Port won't fit that safe. But, a conventional power cord kit will work fine. Specify a 1/2" hole, and install a power strip where you cut off the plug, pass the cable thru the hole, and replace the pug with a do-it-yourself plug from the Home Center. Then back-fill the remaining opening with regular silicone calking (RTV) and you're golden. No compromise of fire protection there. |
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Posted: 3/30/2014 8:09:33 PM EDT
[#18]
Can you tell me what the steel thickness is that is used on a BF7240 on all sides? I would also like to know what I should expect to pay for a BF7240. I was at a gun show today and they had Fort Knox safes there and looked at their Defender 7241 and would like to compare the two.
Thanks for your time |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 3/31/2014 3:50:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: the3rdman]
[#19]
Thanks so much for your reply.
Are their color options available for the CFX safes? Can they be ordered with holes in the bottom in order to secure the safe down to a slab? I ask because there have been instances locally where stolen wreckers have been used to pull safes out of homes and businesses. I am strongly leaning towards the Amsec TL-30X6 but have also considered the Graffunder E Series. Do you believe the technology in the Amsec line offers superior fire and burglary protection over the Graffunder? I know the Amsec line has a considerable price advantage. I know this is probably an unfair question but have been impressed with your candor in this series of posts. Btw, with the exception of one that I am keeping to secure my cutting and prying tools in my garage, I'll be selling my Sturdy fire lined safes to partly finance my upcoming my upcoming purchases. Thank you. Bob Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
I would think that sprinklers that are properly placed and working to keep the fire from enveloping the safe would be an excellent measure, assuming the fire doesn't take out the sprinkler system by the time emergency response is on site and controlling the blaze. I would not be concerned with water getting inside, not an issue. A power access port is not going to defeat the fire protection of a CFX safe, nor any other fire safe that has ample hygroscopic steam stores. The slight positive pressure in the safe always vents and cools the small openings and preserves most of the materials passing thru the port. The CFX Wall is thick, so the BF Power Port won't fit that safe. But, a conventional power cord kit will work fine. Specify a 1/2" hole, and install a power strip where you cut off the plug, pass the cable thru the hole, and replace the pug with a do-it-yourself plug from the Home Center. Then back-fill the remaining opening with regular silicone calking (RTV) and you're golden. No compromise of fire protection there. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By the3rdman:
Do you think the sprinkler would be effective in keeping the internal temperature of these safe down so that my collection would not be damaged by heat and steam? Would water be a problem and if so, is there anything I can do to try to keep it out of the safes? Can a TL-30x6 be ordered with electrical run in? I realize that sort of defeats a purpose in a way but would also like to store a hard drive in there. I would think that sprinklers that are properly placed and working to keep the fire from enveloping the safe would be an excellent measure, assuming the fire doesn't take out the sprinkler system by the time emergency response is on site and controlling the blaze. I would not be concerned with water getting inside, not an issue. A power access port is not going to defeat the fire protection of a CFX safe, nor any other fire safe that has ample hygroscopic steam stores. The slight positive pressure in the safe always vents and cools the small openings and preserves most of the materials passing thru the port. The CFX Wall is thick, so the BF Power Port won't fit that safe. But, a conventional power cord kit will work fine. Specify a 1/2" hole, and install a power strip where you cut off the plug, pass the cable thru the hole, and replace the pug with a do-it-yourself plug from the Home Center. Then back-fill the remaining opening with regular silicone calking (RTV) and you're golden. No compromise of fire protection there. |
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Posted: 3/31/2014 10:29:15 AM EDT
[#20]
Do you believe the technology in the Amsec line offers superior fire and burglary protection over the Graffunder You're trying to compare a commercial, UL rated, high security, composite safe to a non UL rated, geared towards high end residential, steel plate gun safe. It really is apples and oranges. If you wanted to compare the AMSEC to something, it should be other safes in the same class (class being rating, not necessarily build quality): Original, ISM, TSS, Securifort, Mutual, Kaso, Rosengrens, Megasafe, Hamilton, etc, etc. Graffunder is better compared to Brown, which tends to be a better value overall. |
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Posted: 3/31/2014 2:51:34 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By the3rdman:
Are their color options available for the CFX safes? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By the3rdman:
Are their color options available for the CFX safes? I believe they will paint the CFX any color we have available. Can they be ordered with holes in the bottom in order to secure the safe down to a slab? Yes, we can provide any number and size anchor hole arrangement you would like. I am strongly leaning towards the Amsec TL-30X6 but have also considered the Graffunder E Series. Do you believe the technology in the Amsec line offers superior fire and burglary protection over the Graffunder? I know the Amsec line has a considerable price advantage. I know this is probably an unfair question but have been impressed with your candor in this series of posts.
The Graffunder safe is a fine product, and respected as a high quality line. I can only point out the differences, and let you decide. Burglary: The Graffunder safe line does not bear any UL ratings or any kind. They advertise E-Rate and F-Rate safes with the implication they are UL Listed, but they are not. Those assumptions are based on relic Insurance industry standards before the implementation of the UL retest program back in 1992. There is no assurance, nor evidence, these safes would pass any contemporary UL tests. The body construction meets the minimum requirement, but that's the end of any compliance. Door construction is not standardized, and must be tested. In addition, locking systems are subject to highly refined test methods and advanced tools. The AMSEC CFX is a UL Listed TL30x6. The listing is fairly fresh, passing the UL test in 2010. This is a state-of-the-art contemporary high security container that commands multimillion dollar Insurance level classification. Fire: The Graffunder safes don't bear any fire ratings. They merely report they "...use UL rated materials". This is one of those advertising phrases that implies something, but means nothing. Note that they make no claims of fire endurance. The published construction of the safe implies the old-school "Cladding" style of fireproofing, which does not address many aspects of fire protection. The AMSEC CFX carries the established 2-hour, 350 º Factory fire rating. That testing was done by an independent Aerospace Testing Facility, NTS Labs out of Fullerton Ca. The testing following the UL72 testing specification. |
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Posted: 3/31/2014 5:42:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#22]
Another BF Success Story:
A relatively new BF6636 was tested to the extreme in Lancaster County, SC, recently when a natural gas explosion and complete home burn-down left nothing standing but the safe. The evidence indicates some pretty serious heat, where the safe dial is melted away. The other remaining parts are all steel and survived the fire. The official report we received says: Safe performed to near perfection. Top Seal was broken by pressure of fire hose, allowing some minor water damage to top shelf contents and a few items on door organizer. Majority of contents show no signs of damage. Safe was bolted down, and was the only thing standing after the explosion. The news story with video can be seen HERE 
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Posted: 3/31/2014 7:53:33 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Another BF Success Story: A relatively new BF6636 was tested to the extreme in Lancaster County, PA recently when a natural gas explosion and complete home burn-down left nothing standing but the safe. The evidence indicates some pretty serious heat, where the safe dial is melted away. The other remaining parts are all steel and survived the fire. The official report we received says: The news story with video can be seen HERE http://<a href=http://i1363.photobucket.com/albums/r703/TheSafeGuy/014032495144622_zps96a364a5.jpg http://<a href=http://i1363.photobucket.com/albums/r703/TheSafeGuy/0140324_144608_zps1f8a074b.jpg http://<a href=http://i1363.photobucket.com/albums/r703/TheSafeGuy/0140324_155016_zpse092fa47.jpg Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Another BF Success Story: A relatively new BF6636 was tested to the extreme in Lancaster County, PA recently when a natural gas explosion and complete home burn-down left nothing standing but the safe. The evidence indicates some pretty serious heat, where the safe dial is melted away. The other remaining parts are all steel and survived the fire. The official report we received says: Safe performed to near perfection. Top Seal was broken by pressure of fire hose, allowing some minor water damage to top shelf contents and a few items on door organizer. Majority of contents show no signs of damage. Safe was bolted down, and was the only thing standing after the explosion. The news story with video can be seen HERE http://<a href=http://i1363.photobucket.com/albums/r703/TheSafeGuy/014032495144622_zps96a364a5.jpg http://<a href=http://i1363.photobucket.com/albums/r703/TheSafeGuy/0140324_144608_zps1f8a074b.jpg http://<a href=http://i1363.photobucket.com/albums/r703/TheSafeGuy/0140324_155016_zpse092fa47.jpg Thank you so much for posting this! While sad for the owners, this is really wonderful to see the safe perform so spectacularly. Any estimates as to the burn time? |
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Posted: 3/31/2014 7:54:57 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Another BF Success Story: A relatively new BF6636 was tested to the extreme in Lancaster County, PA recently when a natural gas explosion and complete home burn-down left nothing standing but the safe. The evidence indicates some pretty serious heat, where the safe dial is melted away. The other remaining parts are all steel and survived the fire. The official report we received says: The news story with video can be seen HERE http://<a href=http://i1363.photobucket.com/albums/r703/TheSafeGuy/014032495144622_zps96a364a5.jpg http://<a href=http://i1363.photobucket.com/albums/r703/TheSafeGuy/0140324_144608_zps1f8a074b.jpg http://<a href=http://i1363.photobucket.com/albums/r703/TheSafeGuy/0140324_155016_zpse092fa47.jpg Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Another BF Success Story: A relatively new BF6636 was tested to the extreme in Lancaster County, PA recently when a natural gas explosion and complete home burn-down left nothing standing but the safe. The evidence indicates some pretty serious heat, where the safe dial is melted away. The other remaining parts are all steel and survived the fire. The official report we received says: Safe performed to near perfection. Top Seal was broken by pressure of fire hose, allowing some minor water damage to top shelf contents and a few items on door organizer. Majority of contents show no signs of damage. Safe was bolted down, and was the only thing standing after the explosion. The news story with video can be seen HERE http://<a href=http://i1363.photobucket.com/albums/r703/TheSafeGuy/014032495144622_zps96a364a5.jpg http://<a href=http://i1363.photobucket.com/albums/r703/TheSafeGuy/0140324_144608_zps1f8a074b.jpg http://<a href=http://i1363.photobucket.com/albums/r703/TheSafeGuy/0140324_155016_zpse092fa47.jpg Every time I see something like this I mentally pat my own back that I wisely listened to the sage advice in many gun safe threads on another site of a couple of guys far more experienced in this venue of the safe business than myself and chose my BF6636 over two other good but not as good contenders. Thanks a1abdj as well as cb900 from THR. And thanks a lot to the safe guy for bringing forth real insight in what it takes for a company to get it really right instead of BS claims. My hard earned money was truly well spent. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 4/1/2014 3:45:05 AM EDT
[#25]
Thank you Frank and Safe Guy. It is not an easy decision but the information here seems to be much better than I've found elsewhere.
It is much appreciated. Bob |
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Posted: 4/1/2014 7:34:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Conju:
Any estimates as to the burn time? The homeowners were away on vacation. None of the reports say much about the fire, because the explosion was so spectacular. Some of the video shows a pretty big blaze. If you study the photos, there are a few clues to how hot the fire ran, but not how long. One significant observation is the lower door seal in the open door photo. In fire testing, the lower door seal does not usually react much. The entire seal on that safe was fully expanded and crystallized, with significant surface charring. That means that safe was sitting in a pile of burning coals for a good while. I think the fire department guys approached this with a great deal of caution and let it burn, for fear of more explosions. The debris around the safe seems to indicate they let it burn down most of the way before they brought in water. The other clue is the warped side wall. You can see a pretty significant oil-can effect on the left wall where it's visible. The upper and lower third are bowed out, while the center is caved in. My eyeball says that is at least a 1 inch warp there, maybe more. That takes some serious heat. We don't see much of that in 1200ºF tests. That warping happens at much higher temperatures. The damage there is not quite as bad as I would see in a 1-hour UL72 test, so the wild ass guess is that the fire burned at around 1500-1700ºF for at least 30-45 minutes, maybe more. That's just an estimate. I have no facts to support that, just experience based on the visual evidence. The new free warranty replacement safe is already in the queue and will ship out in a few weeks. Little consolation for so much loss. I'm sure such a tragedy is not easy to take. At least his AR15 and Stainless Taurus 357 mag survived (look close, in the door organizer on the right, the box for the pistol is on the lower left floor). There is also a box of Tula .223 (bot-left) and a box of CCI 357 magnum visible. My photo is much higher resolution than the one you can see. |
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Posted: 4/1/2014 12:30:56 PM EDT
[#27]
TSG, how about AMSEC making a tupperware container full-interior size. You can hang guns off of the plastic hatch frame interior and exterior. Everything inside would stay dry. Good accessory?
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Posted: 4/1/2014 12:58:07 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Plattekill:
TSG, how about AMSEC making a tupperware container full-interior size. You can hang guns off of the plastic hatch frame interior and exterior. Everything inside would stay dry. Good accessory? Shhhhhh..... |
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OK, USA
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Posted: 4/1/2014 11:23:03 PM EDT
[#29]
Its gotta feel real good seeing pictures of that BF, what it went thru and how well the contents did. Looks like its pretty much the only thing those poor people will have left. Pretty impresive the ammo did not pop in there.
The pictures got me thinking..... After a fire like that the safe is pretty much left out there in the open for all the world to see. How secure is it? just as secure as it was before the fire? |
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Posted: 4/2/2014 12:12:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tyromeo55:
How secure is it? just as secure as it was before the fire? I seriously doubt they leave the safe unattended until the contents are secured. I believe any time a home is destroyed, there is police oversight to prevent looting. But, it is bolted down, and the security is not really compromised. In fact, it is probably a bit harder to open because everything gets bound up after all the thermal stress. When we open safes after testing, they always have to be aggressively pried open after the lock is opened. I would not be concerned about security, even if someone had the chance at taking it on. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/6/2014 11:12:57 AM EDT
[#31]
TSG
I have a couple questions for you. In my search for the right safe for me, I have had several safe dealers (some AMSEC) say that the bottom of the BF line of safes is a serious weak point. I was told it was a tack welded thin sheet of metal. Some said they could hear it wobble when they installed the safe to the floor other said they had the floor come off while anchoring. Could you elaborate on these claims? Also any reason the 4 gauge steel upgrade is on the inner liner and not the outer? I was always curious, but some dealers told me being on the inside instead of the outside that it pulls heat in during a fire. Is this true? Were those fire rating tested with the 4 gauge upgrade? Thank you for your time sir. |
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Posted: 4/6/2014 11:32:04 AM EDT
[#32]
I have had several safe dealers (some AMSEC) say You would be surprised how many "safe people" know very little about what they're selling. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/6/2014 5:09:00 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By a1abdj:
You would be surprised how many "safe people" know very little about what they're selling. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By a1abdj:
I have had several safe dealers (some AMSEC) say You would be surprised how many "safe people" know very little about what they're selling. Now THAT is the truth. While researching TL30 safes I called a local AmSec dealer; I asked for a price on a CF 7236 and a CF6528. I then asked him to give me prices on the gun safe interior kits for each....he then told me that "you'll have to get the BF series because that's their gun safe line". Further he told me that they didn't sell gun safe interiors for CF series safes. Then he said the BF and the CF were the same build except for the gun part. He couldn't explain the several thousand dollar price difference, though. When I tried to clarify the difference in the poured barrier material and the dri-lite....he told me they were the same. I just suggested that he look up the posted weight of each model . Then I gave up and hung up. |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 4/6/2014 10:36:03 PM EDT
[#34]
post negatively about the guys lack of knowledge and move on so that you dont let other people chase the rabbit.
let him see a picture of mine with the gunsafe interior on a cfx... nothing wrong with having your babies on the bottom and valuables up top... |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/7/2014 3:33:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: nufsed]
[#35]
I and others here have talked about the TL-rated "real" safes. They are not for everybody, I know, but if one of them may work for you AND you're near Dallas...
A shop in Carrollton currently has seven (7) refurbed (means painted) AmSec CF7236s in CL. They are negotiable, especially if you move it. They weigh 4400lbs. Don't assume you can move it...consider hiring them to do it unless you REALLY KNOW that you can do this. I'm not affiliated in any way and I'm not trying to sell or promote anything. I am not posting a link. I'm pointing this out to illustrate that if you are willing to do some work for it, a real-deal high security vault is doable for LESS than some new 12gauge boxes. I have a TL30 Meilink Gibraltar that's actually a little larger than those (5300#) and I got it for 27, so it is possible, but you have to do the legwork. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/7/2014 4:40:09 PM EDT
[#36]
Well I read this entire thread last night and learned a lot. We are very fortunate to have someone like TSG educate us on RSCs and safes. I found the answers to my questions here and elsewhere, and went ahead and ordered a BF6636 with the 4 gauge liner upgrade and ESL 10 lock with some other goodies. I was tempted to drop another $1400 or so for the RF safe, and who knows how much more to move and install it, but it would have had to go in my garage and I wanted something I could put in the house. I also looked at Summit Safes as their steel content impressed me. But I just couldn't pass up the BF with the DryLite fire insulation, as well as the AMSEC reputation/warranty in the industry. I will post pics when it arrives! Thanks TSG!
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Posted: 4/8/2014 12:32:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rakkasan1187:
TSG I have a couple questions for you. In my search for the right safe for me, I have had several safe dealers (some AMSEC) say that the bottom of the BF line of safes is a serious weak point. I was told it was a tack welded thin sheet of metal. Some said they could hear it wobble when they installed the safe to the floor other said they had the floor come off while anchoring. Could you elaborate on these claims? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rakkasan1187:
TSG I have a couple questions for you. In my search for the right safe for me, I have had several safe dealers (some AMSEC) say that the bottom of the BF line of safes is a serious weak point. I was told it was a tack welded thin sheet of metal. Some said they could hear it wobble when they installed the safe to the floor other said they had the floor come off while anchoring. Could you elaborate on these claims? I'm always so disappointed to hear about so many dealers that don't know the products they sell. We try to get out to dealers and teach them, but it's a big country we live in here. There has never been a single report of a safe being separated from the bottom plate. Retailers that use stories like that are making them up so they can sell what they stock, rather than order what you came to buy. It's all a dishonest game. Think about the wobble story... if I bolt a safe down in four corners, and I have it bolted firmly to the floor, is that safe going to "wobble"? I think not. That's just another derogatory story to get you to doubt your desire to buy the BF line. Our bottom plates are welded on just as well as anyone, if not better. In fact, if you want to throw stones back in their way, know the details. Secrets, revealed.... The bottom plate of the BF is actually a formed pan. The edges of the floor plate are bent up about 1 inch. This pan fits "inside" the body shell and front frame section. That provides a doubler of steel at all the edges. It also provides a natural groove for welds, such that they don't need to be hit with a grinder to make them look better. The welds are underneath, on the bottom face, and recessed in those slots around the entire perimeter. They are never compromised with grinding them down. So, we actually have twice as much steel on the edges, and weld that are preserved and not compromised. You can't see all these hidden strengths because the liner hides them. The Top Plate is installed in a similar fashion. The competitors (most, if not all) place the bottom plate on the shop floor and the body parts sit on top of the flat bottom plate. The welds all must be ground off on the outside to make the finish presentable where you can see the joints. These joints are much weaker, because the few internal weld they add are all that's left. The flat bottom plate has no bending strength, because it's flat, so it's much easier to separate from the body shell. So, next time some dumbass tells you how it's made, you can educate him/her and we all get better. There is a reason the BF costs a little more... it's better... in many ways you don't even know about. Also any reason the 4 gauge steel upgrade is on the inner liner and not the outer? I was always curious, but some dealers told me being on the inside instead of the outside that it pulls heat in during a fire. Is this true? Were those fire rating tested with the 4 gauge upgrade? Simply put, it's easier, better security and uses less material. Easier; The BF Safe is highly "engineered", such that the laser cut components are designed to interlock and self locate. The outer Shell is a very complex assembly with lots of formed features. This complexity does not translate well to heavier steel, where forming requires a bigger bend radius and poor precision. The Liner is a less complex set of parts, and they don't have nearly as many formed features, so it's easier to assemble when you retain all of the exterior design and just pop in a heavier liner. Better Security; This is a no-brainer. If I have to work on a heavier material thru a hole in the outer layer, it makes penetration of the inner much harder, and forces a larger opening in the outer shell. Less material; Obviously the liner is a smaller collection of steel panels than the outer shell. So, making the smaller group of parts heavier makes good economic sense from a material used perspective. That makes the price more palatable to the consumer... The fire rating is not a concern. The heavier steel liner just adds a little mass to the heat absorption aspect of the thermodynamic response. One could legitimately argue that the heavier steel in the liner actually would extend the rating time some small margin, because that steel mass has to heat up (more steel mass to heat up). In fact, if you look at long duration UL rated fire safes, the outer skin is very thin. The thinner the better. I'm not going to reveal all the reasons why... See what happens when the jealous noobs try to downplay the better product... you find out it's quite the opposite... |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 4/8/2014 5:53:56 AM EDT
[#38]
amsec dealers are amsec's worst enemy. who needs competition when your own dealers are trying to do you in?
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Posted: 4/8/2014 9:53:33 AM EDT
[#39]
amsec dealers are amsec's worst enemy. who needs competition when your own dealers are trying to do you in? But the great news is that these guys will sell for less, since they don't have any investment tied up on the knowledge side.
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Posted: 4/8/2014 10:09:25 AM EDT
[#40]
Just another "why" question... How about making the TL fill available on the BF series?
For those who want improved B protection, still want F protection, and don't need a UL rating for insurance purposes? |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/8/2014 4:06:36 PM EDT
[#41]
As I recall from way back in this thread, they did something similar, called it the CSC(CFC?) and were going to present it for testing to create a new rating of CSC...better than RSC and cheaper than TL. They had dropped the idea for cost/benefit reasons.
I apologize if I recalled that wrong. Too lazy to re-read it all. |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 6:52:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Plattekill]
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By nufsed:
As I recall from way back in this thread, they did something similar, called it the CSC(CFC?) and were going to present it for testing to create a new rating of CSC...better than RSC and cheaper than TL. They had dropped the idea for cost/benefit reasons. I apologize if I recalled that wrong. Too lazy to re-read it all. No, I think you are right. The sizes available were kind of limited, and I'm not remembering if the fill was the same. Something about the weight-size ratio seemed off. THIS THREAD NEEDS AN INDEX! |
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USA
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Posted: 4/9/2014 10:34:54 AM EDT
[#43]
I know the Amvault TL-15 and TL-30 safes use the same body which has been tested using a TL-30 tool complement under the 5 minute equivalency rule. As I understand it, the TL-15 door is only tested with a TL-15 tool set that does not include grinding wheels and power saws. I'm curious how the TL-15 door stacks up against the body. Obviously it is designed to resist breach for 15 minutes compared to 5 minutes on the body; however, with the smaller allowed tool set, grinding wheels and power saws are not used. Given an equal tool set, is the TL-15 door still stronger than the TL-15/TL-30 body? Thanks!
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Posted: 4/9/2014 12:54:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Plattekill:
Just another "why" question... How about making the TL fill available on the BF series? For those who want improved B protection, still want F protection, and don't need a UL rating for insurance purposes? The fill material used in the TL safes in extremely thick and sticky, and would not flow well into the body and door of the BF safe. That would require some safe re-design to make a BF with high strength concrete. It would also require some special process steps that would add a lot of cost. In addition, the high strength concrete mix design would probably need to be adjusted to a smaller aggregate along with other "adjustments". That's significant brain damage and a new R&D project. It's a good idea, but it's way more than just throwing a different fill in there. Probably not going to get much support without strong demand. |
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Posted: 4/9/2014 9:54:31 PM EDT
[#45]
I hate to ask, it's probably been asked before.. but..
I have a BF6030. Moving next week and will have 3 guys, counting myself, an appliance dolly, and a pallet jack. No stairs to compete with. Pick up truck, etc, etc. How hard is it to move the 1,000lbs empty safe? 
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Posted: 4/9/2014 10:57:53 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By d_rob1031:
I hate to ask, it's probably been asked before.. but.. I have a BF6030. Moving next week and will have 3 guys, counting myself, an appliance dolly, and a pallet jack. No stairs to compete with. Pick up truck, etc, etc. How hard is it to move the 1,000lbs empty safe? It's not that bad, but it is very awkward, and dangerous. Be careful, go slow and think every step. Get yourself a pile of 1x4's, 2x4's and 4x6's around 2 ft long (four of each to be really prepared). The, don't forget the Johnson Bar. That's the 5-6 ft long pry bar with a flat blade at one end (Lowes or Home Depot). Use the blocks as fulcrums, the flat edge of the bar under the edge of the safe will lift one side with minimal effort. Alternating sides will get the safe up on blocks and back down. Rolling a safe onto it's back on a pickup bed is a bitch, but four guys can do it. Use plenty of padding and cardboard to slide easy. good luck.... |
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Posted: 4/10/2014 3:14:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: babirl]
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy: Another BF Success Story: ... Thanks again "TheSafeGuy" for posting this and being here period... You are the 13'er MVP IMHO!  I often recommend folks read this thread in it's entirety when asked about "gun safes", buying stuff at WalMart/Costco/Menards etc., "how much?" and "Why would you spend that much?" questions. I'm confident and beyond pleased in my AMSEC BF purchase decision but do remind folks you're sharing knowledge vs. selling, and most have decided a few $100's might not be a bad idea regarding a higher-end gun safe/RSC. (ETA: Regardless of brand) VR, B2 FWIW, I shared this story/pics/thread with many friends... Sadly, NONE still have ever heard of AMSEC beyond me so your CO Dealer network is still in bad shape as far as being competitive. I DID let them know about "West Coast" and "a1abdj's" business fronts, but also passed along "The Safe Place" in NV as they provided exactly what I needed and sure ship a LOT of quality safes in a timely manner at a price that didn't make me laugh... Bottom Line: We've IM'ed, but it took a LOT of research to end up w/ my BF... I would NEVER have bought it locally given the "joke" dealers. |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 4/11/2014 2:01:31 AM EDT
[#48]
will amsec install an ethernet passthrough if requested?
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Posted: 4/11/2014 7:49:48 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By a1abdj:
But the great news is that these guys will sell for less, since they don't have any investment tied up on the knowledge side. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By a1abdj:
amsec dealers are amsec's worst enemy. who needs competition when your own dealers are trying to do you in? But the great news is that these guys will sell for less, since they don't have any investment tied up on the knowledge side. It's very frustrating for us as consumers though in my opinion. I have called a company local to me, went to see them, told him what I was interested in...he had zero knowledge and never called me back with pricing. I used the dealer listing on the AMSEC site to find other dealers...one was disconnected and one didn't carry the product anymore. I called the company to talk to them and they gave me the name of a wholesaler who I called to try and find who they are selling to and got one name. It would be a great idea to have the amsec dealer site list updated and also list if they can handle installations. Now I'm am either looking at driving almost 2 hours to just look at a safe and I don't know if they can install it due to my distance (if so at what extra cost?). For wanting to spend 5k with a company solely based on TSG and this thread...I am having a hard time and frustrated with the lack of support and knowledge of the product from people selling the product. |
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Posted: 4/11/2014 8:49:36 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mad4wd:
It's very frustrating for us as consumers though in my opinion. I have called a company local to me, went to see them, told him what I was interested in...he had zero knowledge and never called me back with pricing. I used the dealer listing on the AMSEC site to find other dealers...one was disconnected and one didn't carry the product anymore. I called the company to talk to them and they gave me the name of a wholesaler who I called to try and find who they are selling to and got one name. It would be a great idea to have the amsec dealer site list updated and also list if they can handle installations. Now I'm am either looking at driving almost 2 hours to just look at a safe and I don't know if they can install it due to my distance (if so at what extra cost?). For wanting to spend 5k with a company solely based on TSG and this thread...I am having a hard time and frustrated with the lack of support and knowledge of the product from people selling the product. Mad, send me a PM with your location and contact information. I'll have someone contact you and get you hooked up right. Thanks for the feedback. This kind of "bitching" is what we need to find our weakness and make things better.... |
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