Originally Posted By Mad4wd:



It's very frustrating for us as consumers though in my opinion. I have called a company local to me, went to see them, told him what I was interested in...he had zero knowledge and never called me back with pricing. I used the dealer listing on the AMSEC site to find other dealers...one was disconnected and one didn't carry the product anymore.
 I called the company to talk to them and they gave me the name of a wholesaler who I called to try and find who they are selling to and got one name. It would be a great idea to have the amsec dealer site list updated and also list if they can handle installations. Now I'm am either looking at driving almost 2 hours to just look at a safe and I don't know if they can install it due to my distance (if so at what extra cost?).  
For wanting to spend 5k with a company solely based on TSG and this thread...I am having a hard time and frustrated with the lack of support and knowledge of the product from people selling the product.

Originally Posted By MattK2:
I know the Amvault TL-15 and TL-30 safes use the same body which has been tested using a TL-30 tool complement under the 5 minute equivalency rule.  As I understand it, the TL-15 door is only tested with a TL-15 tool set that does not include grinding wheels and power saws.  I'm curious how the TL-15 door stacks up against the body.  Obviously it is designed to resist breach for 15 minutes compared to 5 minutes on the body; however, with the smaller allowed tool set, grinding wheels and power saws are not used.  Given an equal tool set, is the TL-15 door still stronger than the TL-15/TL-30 body?  Thanks!

It's very frustrating for us as consumers though in my opinion.  

Originally Posted By Mad4wd:
Honestly...the people I was having problems with are brick and mortar locksmiths...not  internet only if that's what you were thinking. I could have ordered online by now, but I want to see one and have someone set the thing in my house.

Honestly...the people I was having problems with are brick and mortar locksmiths  

Originally Posted By 70runner:
Wish to thank both TSG and the other folks contributing to this very informative thread.  In the market for first gun/valuable safe and spent some time at West Coast Safes a few days ago.  Went to look at the Liberty Franklin, saw a couple AMSECs and decided to do some more research.  Then found this thread.  I live in avocado country in N San Diego county...hills, private & narrow roads.  Very difficult to impossible to get a typical freight truck up my 200ft driveway with a 15deg incline, so most of them park at the entry and wait for me to show up with my Kubota and fork lift attachment.    

Anyway, now looking at either a BF6030 or BF6032 instead of the Liberty Franklin 25.  Planning an internet buy.  If drop ship from Fontana CA (just down the freeway from me), might save some dough if I can willcall.  The Kubota will handle offload/staging.  Then off the pallet, over a porch step (3"), house entry, through the kitchen (tile), short hallway (wood floor), to a carpeted room corner.  Current moving team is me (5'10" healthy 57yr old), daughter's bo (6'3" fitness trainer) and possibly my son (6' 190lbs ex special forces).  For you folks who have moved one of these (or equivalent), can it be done <carefully> with 2-3 determined guys?  Should I consider taking the door off, particularly with the 6030?  All suggestions/recommendations welcome.

Originally Posted By drifter_r6:
Waited all this time for the BF and it's not exactly what I ordered ...time to wait some more.  :(    Pics of the "loaner" until the replacement gets here.

Thanks to all the safe experts who shared their expertise and knowledge, you are greatly appreciated.  After getting hands on and thoroughly inspecting this one, I know I made the right decision.

http://<a href=http://i904.photobucket.com/albums/ac248/drifter_r6/photo1_zpse1204ede.jpg

http://<a href=http://i904.photobucket.com/albums/ac248/drifter_r6/photo2_zpsd4fe5b6a.jpg

Originally Posted By bani:
will amsec install an ethernet passthrough if requested?

Originally Posted By bani:
sort of like what cannon provides:
http://www.cannonsafe.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/265x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/m/e/media_trans_background_2_9.png

amsec only provides a power passthrough. cannon provides power and ethernet.

Originally Posted By drifter_r6:
Those work well but keep in mind any kind of powered on electronics will generate heat. With the safe sealed there is nowhere to vent the heat.

Originally Posted By AzureReaver:
As a computer person I can offer a solution here - if you have a hardwired power connector available, the consumer does not need a ethernet port, there is a ethernet-over-power solution.  As an example (not an endorsement, I haven't used this one) see http://www.amazon.com/TP-LINK-TL-PA4010KIT-Powerline-Adapter-Starter/dp/B00AWRUICG/ref=pd_cp_pc_0.  You plug one adapter into the inside of the safe, plug the safe in to the wall, and plug the other adapter in near your router (works best if on the same circuit breaker as the safe connection).

Originally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
[span style='font-size: 10pt;'][span style='font-weight: bold;']Well, let me see what we can do. I think it would be obvious that the giant breech in fire insulation that the Canon solution requires is probably making their fire rating completely null and void. That is a huge hole thru the safe wall, and that box and hardware all melt away real quick in a fire.

Originally Posted By drifter_r6:
Drill a hole through the power port and run the cable through.

Pg.15, ethernet through power port

Originally Posted By bani:

that might work, though i would worry about amsec voiding the warranty.

As with any manufacturer, locks come in grades of quality and cost, just like any other product family. Locks are no different. Service reliability usually follows the relative cost/quality relationship. The 6730 Group 2 lock today is all but forgotten. It was replaced largely by the 6630, the Group 2M version that qualifies for installation on TL rated safes. For RSC rated safes, the Group 2 rating is the baseline requirement for UL listing. Most safe companies migrated to the 6741 locks long ago where the safe rating would allow the change, because it is so much less costly.

Others moved to other brands, predominantly the LaGard 3300. The cost of Dial & Dial Ring kits was a big factor too, whereas the price of S&G Dials have always been considerably higher cost. It's a package deal, and the combined cost for a set, lock-dial-ring, has been the metric for these choices. Long ago, LaGard offered package prices that were considerably cheaper. For a while, almost everyone in the gunsafe business moved to LaGard with a few exceptions.

In the Locksmith world, the LaGard has a legacy of poor reliability. That legacy came from a bad launch of their products in the early 80's, and a series of poor decisions choices about how to support the industry when they had a serious rash of failures. Those problems were resolved long ago, but the legacy lives on. In the gunsafe industry, the lack of technical expertise of the market allowed the LaGard product to thrive and aggressive pricing placed it in a leading role. There were other players that came and went. The Taylor Resources PPI P70 lock, later bought by Ilco-Unican had it's day. They faded after Ilco bought the company. Then, the more recent player, the Lock1One came to play with a 6730 level knock-off that is now known as the BigRed. This is the lock that AMSEC uses today on all of the gunsafe and residential products, as well as many light commercial safes. The BigRed has been a good lock at a low price, but retained the high quality traits of the 6730.

The key differences in these locks are materials and manufacturing methods. The traditional 6730/6630 locks are a collection of machined and stamped brass alloy parts, as is the BigRed. The S&G 6741 and LaGard 3300 locks are largely made of zinc die-cast and aluminum stamping components. The machined brass parts are far more precise, durable and longer lasting. The brass parts cost a lot more to manufacture, and are made for a far more expensive material, hence the cost differences.

As for reliability, our records don't favor one over the other much in this diverse lock spectrum when used in residential applications. The typical residential user opens a safe once or twice per day. In commercial use, the safes can be opened more than 100 times each day. So, the problem becomes longevity, and this is where the locks with brass components bear fruit with much better wear characteristics, resulting in longer service life. A typical mechanical lock will operate 30,000-50,000 cycles if it is serviced regularly. Therein lies the hitch... mechanical locks require periodic service, and in commercial applications they get that service if the owner is prudent and has robust maintenance programs for all of their equipment.

In residential use, 30,000 cycles is a lifetime, so the longevity of the locks becomes far less evident. Most of these low-cost locks installed in the early 90's will not reach their service limits for another 30-40 years. Consequently, the residential user is not inclined to solicit regular service to extend the life.

Service failures on residential safe locks are mostly attributed to poor combo setting techniques in factories focused on mass production, where the care and precision is disregarded. Another huge source of problems is in the selling cycle, wherein the dealers interfere with the process by setting the safes on simple common one-number combos for display purposes, then later return the combo to the factory numbers when they sell the safe. These dealers are not trained in the delicate process, and they are responsible for a  huge source of lockouts and service calls.

Combo locks have a "dialing tolerance", where there is a range around the ideal set-point of each number that should allow the lock to open. Our factory setting process requires the installer to test the over/under range to verify the combo is set properly. This quality step is imposed on our import vendors as well. Every lock is dialed 1/2 high and low to assure each number is set in the middle of that tolerance range. I know most other gunsafe manufacturers hardly understand these concepts. These are lessons learned from decades of making safes for commercial service.

Which brings me to the point of the dialog. Electronic locks. Since I designed the first retrofittable digital safe lock in 1989, it has been a standard of ours to assure a lock that lives service-free for at least 1,000,000 cycles. Yes, that's what I said, one million cycles without any regular maintenance. I can't say the same for any of the "other" lock manufacturers. The UL ratings only require 10,000 cycles. I won't share the brand vs longevity data we have collected, but suffice it to say this is largely why so many have low regard for electronic locks. We have all had our challenges with e-locks as the technology evolved. I can say, without reservation, that the ESL10 and ESL20 lock we make today lasts longer and fails less than any other mechanical or electronic lock made. We keep detailed statistics, and we sell almost every lock made, so this is genuine statistic based on real service reliability.

So, digital locks have a legacy of their own, but that has been polluted by the failings of lock companies to test and maintain a continuous improvement program like our own. Newcomers with products designed in China by engineers unfamiliar with our safes and history have brought a cloud of doubt of e-locks. Some of our own big-name US companies have had wide-spread failures with poor designs and poor quality control, adding to the negative light shed on e-locks.

In the grand scheme, the e-lock is a MUCH better choice, if a quality lock is selected. Backup mechanical systems are a band-aid for digital reliability. The e-lock offers the user the privacy of combo change without anyone else knowing the code. They offer absolute manipulation resistance, as code testing is prevented with penalty lockout periods. They live longer by as much as 100 times. They auto-lock when the door is closed, so there is never the accidental unlocked safe because you neglected to spin the dial off the combo.  They don't require regular costly professional service, and they are many times faster to open in crisis conditions.

You choose, but do that with your eyes wide open.

Originally Posted By bani:
it's too bad all your dealers lobby so hard against e-locks, going so far as to threaten to not honor warranty service if you get an e-lock.

Originally Posted By anaxagoras:


I'm looking for a front opening night stand safe for 2 pistols and 4 mags.  I'd be opening it twice every day.  My EDC would go in there at night, and my full size home defense pistol would stay in there plus 2 spare mags for both).  I prefer the idea of a mechanical lock like the simplex, i feel like there is less to go wrong.  I like the PS1210HD pistol box, but it being top opener isn't want, and there probably wouldn't be room for the pistols and the mags.  Fort knox makes something, however it doesn't appear large enough for 2 pistols and 4 mags.   GunVault makes something the size I want, but I have no faith in their products after a bad experience.



I'm interested in the ESF1214 but i'm cautious with biometrics only for something i need to work 100% of the time every time.  I know nothing is 100%, but i'm just cautious of a finger print reader as I've had mixed results.  Some work really well 95% of the time and some are lousy all the time.  I know it has a key, but i'm not going to want to be fumbling for it in a time or duress.  What kind of power source does the ESF1214 use?  Batteries? Wall Plug? Both?  Is there a low battery warning?    Do you think the finger print reader is reliable and consistent enough?  Easy to use in a time of stress?  Would you use it as your nightstand pistol safe?

Originally Posted By aklferris:
An e-lock with a proven reliability for 1 MILLION cycles isn't good enough for you?  I would sure take it over biometrics, just MHO.
 

Originally Posted By berry79:
Question? Just purchased the fv6032 and had a mechanical lock installed. It's a s&g 6651. How good is this particular lock? After reading this about the electric, I kind of wish I would have left it with that. Would the Els10 fit this safe, and how difficult would it be to install? I'm a mechanic by trade and I'm pretty good figuring things out. Would like to do it myself if possible. Not worried about the warranty.

Originally Posted By aklferris:
I believe I've asked this before, but didn't get an answer.  What are the advantages of the ESL10 over the ESL5?  I know the ESL5 is supposed to have cheaper materials.  And, the ESL5 is backlit, but the ESL10 is not.  Does the ESL10 last longer?  

Is the only advantage of the ESL10 knowing that it has "more elegant" materials inside, but no real-world benefit?  

Originally Posted By berry79:
Also, were could I purchase the esl10?