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Posted: 4/22/2014 6:44:38 PM EDT
[#1]
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Posted: 4/22/2014 6:55:35 PM EDT
[#2]
I think electronic locks have a ways to go before they lose their perception of unreliable.
And with all the sub 1k gun safes out their with even more shitty e-locks than the one featured in this article the deck just keeps getting stacked by those who get affected. In my several years of researching gun safes which started in 2007 I was appalled at all the stories like this I read about. And it is true now and again you hear of a dial combo lock going south but really people just google the friggin horror stories for yourself and see which way the deck is stacked. All that being said I am sure the e-lock TSG pioneered is really good but just speaking for myself it will be a while before I ever consider one. |
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Posted: 4/22/2014 8:01:11 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By heeler1:
I think electronic locks have a ways to go before they lose their perception of unreliable. And with all the sub 1k gun safes out their with even more shitty e-locks than the one featured in this article the deck just keeps getting stacked by those who get affected. In my several years of researching gun safes which started in 2007 I was appalled at all the stories like this I read about. And it is true now and again you hear of a dial combo lock going south but really people just google the friggin horror stories for yourself and see which way the deck is stacked. All that being said I am sure the e-lock TSG pioneered is really good but just speaking for myself it will be a while before I ever consider one. I like to let statistics tell me the real story, and set rumors and feelings aside. I shouldn't do this and share... but to make a point.... I just ran the report for Service Cases closed from January 1 thru March 31, 2014. Thought it would be rather telling about what the REAL statistics say. Mechanical 3-wheel and 4-wheel locks (all brands, all models) : 55 Cases. ESL10 and ESL 20 Digital Locks : 12 Cases. Then, overlay that with the "stupid factor", where we average over 50% of digital locks returned and evaluated for root cause failure mode do not show any problem, and still are in perfect working order. That tells you a little bit about the misinformation about mechanical lock reliability. Mechanical locks fail almost 10 times more frequently that ESL10 and ESL 20 locks. I'm just say'in... let the light shine! |
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Posted: 4/22/2014 8:16:35 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
I like to let statistics tell me the real story, and set rumors and feelings aside. I shouldn't do this and share... but to make a point.... I just ran the report for Service Cases closed from January 1 thru March 31, 2014. Thought it would be rather telling about what the REAL statistics say. Mechanical 3-wheel and 4-wheel locks (all brands, all models) : 55 Cases. ESL10 and ESL 20 Digital Locks : 12 Cases. Then, overlay that with the "stupid factor", where we average over 50% of digital locks returned and evaluated for root cause failure mode do not show any problem, and still are in perfect working order. That tells you a little bit about the misinformation about mechanical lock reliability. Mechanical locks fail almost 10 times more frequently that ESL10 and ESL 20 locks. I'm just say'in... let the light shine! Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By heeler1:
I think electronic locks have a ways to go before they lose their perception of unreliable. And with all the sub 1k gun safes out their with even more shitty e-locks than the one featured in this article the deck just keeps getting stacked by those who get affected. In my several years of researching gun safes which started in 2007 I was appalled at all the stories like this I read about. And it is true now and again you hear of a dial combo lock going south but really people just google the friggin horror stories for yourself and see which way the deck is stacked. All that being said I am sure the e-lock TSG pioneered is really good but just speaking for myself it will be a while before I ever consider one. I like to let statistics tell me the real story, and set rumors and feelings aside. I shouldn't do this and share... but to make a point.... I just ran the report for Service Cases closed from January 1 thru March 31, 2014. Thought it would be rather telling about what the REAL statistics say. Mechanical 3-wheel and 4-wheel locks (all brands, all models) : 55 Cases. ESL10 and ESL 20 Digital Locks : 12 Cases. Then, overlay that with the "stupid factor", where we average over 50% of digital locks returned and evaluated for root cause failure mode do not show any problem, and still are in perfect working order. That tells you a little bit about the misinformation about mechanical lock reliability. Mechanical locks fail almost 10 times more frequently that ESL10 and ESL 20 locks. I'm just say'in... let the light shine! Playing devils advocate, the number of cases doesn't really tell us much about the failure RATE. do you have this information in front of you as well? |
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Posted: 4/22/2014 9:03:25 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Conju:
Playing devils advocate, the number of cases doesn't really tell us much about the failure RATE. do you have this information in front of you as well? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Conju:
Originally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By heeler1:
I think electronic locks have a ways to go before they lose their perception of unreliable. And with all the sub 1k gun safes out their with even more shitty e-locks than the one featured in this article the deck just keeps getting stacked by those who get affected. In my several years of researching gun safes which started in 2007 I was appalled at all the stories like this I read about. And it is true now and again you hear of a dial combo lock going south but really people just google the friggin horror stories for yourself and see which way the deck is stacked. All that being said I am sure the e-lock TSG pioneered is really good but just speaking for myself it will be a while before I ever consider one. I like to let statistics tell me the real story, and set rumors and feelings aside. I shouldn't do this and share... but to make a point.... I just ran the report for Service Cases closed from January 1 thru March 31, 2014. Thought it would be rather telling about what the REAL statistics say. Mechanical 3-wheel and 4-wheel locks (all brands, all models) : 55 Cases. ESL10 and ESL 20 Digital Locks : 12 Cases. Then, overlay that with the "stupid factor", where we average over 50% of digital locks returned and evaluated for root cause failure mode do not show any problem, and still are in perfect working order. That tells you a little bit about the misinformation about mechanical lock reliability. Mechanical locks fail almost 10 times more frequently that ESL10 and ESL 20 locks. I'm just say'in... let the light shine! Playing devils advocate, the number of cases doesn't really tell us much about the failure RATE. do you have this information in front of you as well? This. Although I will buy an elock when I get a safe soon. If you sold 13 elocks and 12 failed but sold 1000000000000000000 mechanical and 55 failed, then put me down for mechanical. 
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NV, USA
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Posted: 4/22/2014 10:04:49 PM EDT
[#6]
i returned my big red lock, it wasnt very good at keeping my confidence with how much it was off... got an s&g - it opens everytime now.
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Posted: 4/22/2014 10:29:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: a1abdj]
[#7]
There is an...interesting...article by a person with a safe problem... not AMSEC.
HERE! Comments? Locksmith, not a safe tech. That was a 1 hour job start to finish. 2 hours if you want to throw in a few minor issues and the time it takes to carry the tools back and forth to the truck. I also noticed that they replaced the lock with a 6740 series (the cheap one) instead of the 6730 (better model) which is usually used on the Presidential. The dial and dial ring don't match either. Not impressed with the work. The other issues he found are common. . Mechanical locks fail almost 10 times more frequently that ESL10 and ESL 20 locks. But there are also more to the numbers than just the numbers. For example, assuming you're dealing with a skilled tech, now many of those mechanical issues could be overcome without drilling, vs. how many of the electronic issued overcome without drilling. I have never had to drill an AMSEC electronic lock myself, and have many in service. At the same time, I drill far more S&G electronics than I do S&G mechanicals. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 4/22/2014 10:44:49 PM EDT
[#8]
TSG,
I found this thread a couple of days ago and read through its entirety. Thanks for taking the time to answer questions for us. I had a question after reading through it all. I'm in the market for a gun safe and have been looking at some that use concrete fire protection versus drywall. Is there any fire protection advantage to the drylight material used in the BF series over the RF or RFX series? Burglary protection is more important to me than fire. Adding the 4ga. Option to a bf7240 puts it within a few hundred dollars of the RF6528 and I think I'd rather have the weight and security of a concrete composite. Thanks. |
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Posted: 4/22/2014 10:45:21 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By robpiat:
I've mentioned it before, but a lifetime warranty, or even a lifetime lockout warranty would go a long way. If your reliability is what you mention, it would be a miniscule cost. Its the greatest and not insurable risk to the safe buyer. TheSafeGuy, do you have a comment on this? |
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Posted: 4/22/2014 11:00:30 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Conju:
Playing devils advocate, the number of cases doesn't really tell us much about the failure RATE. do you have this information in front of you as well? That's a fair question. I don't have hard numbers, but the last I heard it would be about a 50-50 split of e-locks to mechanical locks. I think that would represent between 12,000 and 15,000 units of each for a 3-month period. So that's around 0.1% for ESL10/20 and near 1% for mechanical locks. Those failure rate numbers pretty much carry from year to year, so those are close to right. If could report some of the "other" e-lock failure rates, it would be easy to see why there is a general favoritism to mechanical locks in the industry. |
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Posted: 4/22/2014 11:06:52 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By a1abdj:
But there are also more to the numbers than just the numbers. For example, assuming you're dealing with a skilled tech, now many of those mechanical issues could be overcome without drilling, vs. how many of the electronic issued overcome without drilling. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By a1abdj:
. Mechanical locks fail almost 10 times more frequently that ESL10 and ESL 20 locks. But there are also more to the numbers than just the numbers. For example, assuming you're dealing with a skilled tech, now many of those mechanical issues could be overcome without drilling, vs. how many of the electronic issued overcome without drilling. And, to your point, because so may locksmiths know how to diagnose and remedy mechanical lock issues, a good number of problems are never reported to our service desk. They are resolved without our knowledge. So, in that sense, the real numbers are greater than we know. I have never had to drill an AMSEC electronic lock myself, and have many in service. At the same time, I drill far more S&G electronics than I do S&G mechanicals. I rest my case. Unbiased verification of everything I just reported. |
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Posted: 4/22/2014 11:26:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Drummer:
TSG, I found this thread a couple of days ago and read through its entirety. Thanks for taking the time to answer questions for us. I had a question after reading through it all. I'm in the market for a gun safe and have been looking at some that use concrete fire protection versus drywall. Is there any fire protection advantage to the drylight material used in the BF series over the RF or RFX series? Burglary protection is more important to me than fire. Adding the 4ga. Option to a bf7240 puts it within a few hundred dollars of the RF6528 and I think I'd rather have the weight and security of a concrete composite. Thanks. That is hard to say. The safes that use concrete all have much thicker walls. We know the thick walled concrete and the thin walled Drylite safes do very well. The only safe that uses Drylite is the BF Gunsafe, and we have never tested that one with Concrete. I can only offer educated speculation. The most significant difference in these fill materials is density, and that density is directly related to the thermal conductivity. Making a comparison of the two materials in the same safe design, it is reasonable to conclude that the Drylight would do better in the short term because it will slow the conduction of heat transfer better. In the long run, the greater density of concrete would equate to a longer steam capacity/life. So, the conclusion would be dependent on time of exposure. The Drylight would probably hold a lower internal temperature until it ran out of water reserves from calcination. The concrete will last longer, but the internal temperatures would run higher due to the greater rate of conduction energy entering the safe interior. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 12:23:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gasdoc09:
TheSafeGuy, do you have a comment on this? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gasdoc09:
Originally Posted By robpiat:
I've mentioned it before, but a lifetime warranty, or even a lifetime lockout warranty would go a long way. If your reliability is what you mention, it would be a miniscule cost. Its the greatest and not insurable risk to the safe buyer. TheSafeGuy, do you have a comment on this? We have debated this once before. Here is the problem with "lifetime" warranty... Safes last forever. It's a big steel box. There is hardly anything to wear out, except the lock. In fact, with the exception of a few big heavy steel parts in the boltwork and hinges, the lock is the only thing that gets regular exercise. Now, practically speaking, the thing that is most used is also the most abused. A lifetime warranty would be easy to live by for 5-10 years, but the sheer numbers of safes subject to a lifetime warranty gets huge as decades roll by. In 20 years things will start to wear out, maybe not from simple lock cycles, but from all the physical interaction with the environment, humans and the safe mechanics. Plastics decay, wires chafe, metals fracture from constant hammering of the boltwork slamming into the lock bolt, the keypad is getting banged up endlessly as the beauty fades and the safe becomes a piece of equipment rather than a showpiece. By this time broken keypads, wires jerked on from battery changes, cables pulling apart from the keypad removals, poor maintenance practices and abusive use brings failure rates up substantially. By year 30 the failure rate climbs to 5 to 10%. With numbers like these, and populations of safes in the hundreds of thousands of units, we could be easily covering warranty costs for thousands of old locks every month. The potential financial exposure is beyond staggering. The idea of a lifetime warranty is just pure insanity. Nobody that plans to be around for more than a few years would consider such a nutty plan. Where do you find anything that has a lifetime warranty unless it is something like a cooking pan or something simple like that? Sure, it's a statement of confidence by a manufacturer... but who has the financial ability to actually support such a policy? In 50 years this kind of policy could cost millions every year. Get it? When do you suppose Toyota or Hyundai will be offering lifetime warranty's? It is never gonna happen. ...see how crazy that idea is in reality? |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 4/23/2014 5:25:07 AM EDT
[#14]
Thanks for the response on Drylight vs composite fill.
As for the debate on e-locks, you almost have me convinced to go with the ESL10. What's holding me back is twofold: 1. The cost of a lock out. 2. Being locked out and dependent upon a locksmith to let me in to my safe. The price of the lock every 10 years or so is not a huge deal. But add an additional $750 or so for a lockout and you have a large percentage of the safe cost. My father had a safe in which the S&G E-lock lasted for approx. 12-13 years. Not a bad lifespan but the lockout and replacement cost roughly $1k, which was 30-40% of the cost of the safe originally. In doing research, there is at least one well known gunsafe brand offering a lifetime warranty on e-locks. How good the warranty is or if they'll be around in 10 years to replace it, who knows. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 8:27:37 AM EDT
[#15]
TheSafeGuy - If the electronic pad on my AmSec is compromised by damage due to liquid, fire, or vandalism like smashing or cutting the wire and removing the keypad all together, what is involved in getting me back into the safe?
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Posted: 4/23/2014 10:47:20 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SevenMaryThree:
TheSafeGuy - If the electronic pad on my AmSec is compromised by damage due to liquid, fire, or vandalism like smashing or cutting the wire and removing the keypad all together, what is involved in getting me back into the safe? The keypad is simply replaced. If the cable is damaged, then a new RJ11 can be installed. Worst case, the cable is cut flush to the door face, we use 4 probes into the wire ends to power the lock and enter the code from another keypad. There is always some spare cable looped inside. With a little finesse, one should be able to wiggle an inch or two out of the hole. There should be no reason to drill for this cause. One thing that makes the comparison of e-lock to mechanical unfair is that the mechanical locks will start to show signs that there is a failure on the horizon. The fool is the guy that ignores the symptoms. When the lock doesn't open reliably every time, and it had been "on the numbers" for a long time, the lock is telling you it's getting sick. A safe tech would recognize this and service the lock, and reset the combo. The fool waits until the lock stops opening, even though they suspected something was going wrong. Fortunately, in most cases a competent locksmith that is not out to burn the customer will do a few tests and figure out the problem, quickly open the safe and take care of the issue. Much of the time, selling a new lock is the best opportunity to make a reasonable profit on the work. E-locks may show similar signs, and if the user is prudent they will avert catastrophe and call for service. Again, most people opt to have a new lock installed as a best measure for long term reliability. However, e-locks can go poof. It's really pretty rare, unless someone intentionally made that happen. When an e-lock lets the magic smoke out of the microchip, there is no technique to make it work once more. This is not as frequent as you might think, but it does happen. Now, to utter the dark truth about "some" Locksmiths. There is no way to know when a Locksmith might be shady. It is no different than a shady car repair guy. They can easily mask the truth and say that the safe is locked out and must be drilled. That act of dishonesty can change a $60 service call into a $500 drill job. It's a compelling motive, and an easy way to make a lot more on a service call. There is no way to tell how often this happens, but the fact that 50% of the e-locks we get back work perfectly, even with holes drilled in them, tells a pretty compelling tale. It's even more suspicious when the safe is "under warranty, so the factory pays for the work"... The tech looks like a hero in the end user's eyes. They sure aren't going to report any suspicious activity if they get a working safe and a new lock out of the deal for free. I think you get the picture. We believe there may be a fairly significant degree of dishonesty at play, but there is no way to prove it. I'm not accusing Locksmiths of being dishonest, but you can see it would be very easy for them to do so, and we have evidence that suggests some of this happens. Our policy requires that the removed parts must be returned before we will pay the invoice. We do a diagnostic on all returned parts to determine the root cause so we can focus on continuous product improvement. There are a lot of locks that seem to be just fine when we get them back. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 11:17:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: a1abdj]
[#17]
There is no way to know when a Locksmith might be shady. It is no different than a shady car repair guy. They can easily mask the truth and say that the safe is locked out and must be drilled. That act of dishonesty can change a $60 service call into a $500 drill job. It's a compelling motive, and an easy way to make a lot more on a service call. There is no way to tell how often this happens, but the fact that 50% of the e-locks we get back work perfectly, even with holes drilled in them, tells a pretty compelling tale. It's even more suspicious when the safe is "under warranty, so the factory pays for the work"... The tech looks like a hero in the end user's eyes. They sure aren't going to report any suspicious activity if they get a working safe and a new lock out of the deal for free. I think you get the picture. We believe there may be a fairly significant degree of dishonesty at play, but there is no way to prove it.
These guys do exist, but there's another group of guys that are more common. These are the guys that I refer to as the "hacks". They may be licensed, belong to professional organizations, and own impressive looking equipment. However, they have little to no knowledge of what they're actually doing. They do not know how to diagnose a lock, because they don't really understand how it works. It's very easy for them, with a modern drill rig, to insert slot A into hole B, and put a hole in the right spot. They aren't doing this because it makes them more money, they're doing it because it's the only thing they know how to do. It is not uncommon for me to follow behind some of these guys to do clean up duty, because they put holes in the safe but failed to get it open. Many times, I'm able to open the safe using the holes they already drilled. They certainly knew where to put the holes, but clearly had no idea what to do once it was there. A disturbing trend with safe manufacturers, national service providers, and the like, is to shop for the lowest priced "locksmith", instead of the most competent professional. As a consumer, you may want to do a bit of homework on the person they're sending out, prior to letting them take a drill to your safe. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 11:33:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By a1abdj:
A disturbing trend with safe manufacturers, national service providers, and the like, is to shop for the lowest priced "locksmith", instead of the most competent professional. As a consumer, you may want to do a bit of homework on the person they're sending out, prior to letting them take a drill to your safe. It's true, unfortunately there are a lot of botched drill jobs happening. Incompetent techs that claim they know what they are doing make Swiss cheese safes all the time. Believe me, we figure out who these guys are and never call them in again. We don't send out the lowest bidder, we call the tech nearest the job that we have in our database, and we look at the techs "rating" to find the best one. We rate every tech for every job when the cases are closed. We keep a database of all the technicians we contract. In most every area, we have found good techs we trust. Anyone that burns us or does a terrible job only gets one chance to do that. We tag the bad apples as "don't use" and they never get a call from AMSEC again. Most end users with service problems call the factory before they seek a local locksmith. I would suggest that is the better path to a good service experience. We "contract" techs that do work on our behalf, and there is a clear letter of expectations and obligations that they must sign before work commences. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 11:40:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#19]
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Posted: 4/23/2014 11:43:19 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy: The keypad is simply replaced. If the cable is damaged, then a new RJ11 can be installed. Worst case, the cable is cut flush to the door face, we use 4 probes into the wire ends to power the lock and enter the code from another keypad. There is always some spare cable looped inside. With a little finesse, one should be able to wiggle an inch or two out of the hole. There should be no reason to drill for this cause. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy: Originally Posted By SevenMaryThree: TheSafeGuy - If the electronic pad on my AmSec is compromised by damage due to liquid, fire, or vandalism like smashing or cutting the wire and removing the keypad all together, what is involved in getting me back into the safe? The keypad is simply replaced. If the cable is damaged, then a new RJ11 can be installed. Worst case, the cable is cut flush to the door face, we use 4 probes into the wire ends to power the lock and enter the code from another keypad. There is always some spare cable looped inside. With a little finesse, one should be able to wiggle an inch or two out of the hole. There should be no reason to drill for this cause. Thank you for the reply. Reliability under normal use nonwithstanding, you cannot cut the S&G dial off of the door of a safe. The exposed electronics and wire are too much of an Achilles heel for me. I might want access to the contents in pretty short order after an event like a break in. Surely even frustrated kids would think to twist off the keypad and destroy it. I'd like to mitigate the risk of needing to schedule a service tech while I'm dealing with the other after effects of a burglary. Thanks again. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 11:56:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SevenMaryThree:
Thank you for the reply. Reliability under normal use nonwithstanding, you cannot cut the S&G dial off of the door of a safe. The exposed electronics and wire are too much of an Achilles heel for me. I might want access to the contents in pretty short order after an event like a break in. Surely even frustrated kids would think to twist off the keypad and destroy it. I'd like to mitigate the risk of needing to schedule a service tech while I'm dealing with the other after effects of a burglary. Thanks again. Well, that logic does not hold true in reality. The first thing that happens to a safe with a mechanical lock on it is the dial is beaten to a pulp. For some reason burglars think breaking the dial will make the door open. That usually results in the spindle getting pushed into the safe door. By design, that triggers the Relocker to fire, hence requiring a mandatory drill job. Since the lock is trashed, and the relocker is fired, it's a two-hole drill job to get it open after that. So, the digital lock failure is still one less hole after an attack. The truth will set you free.... |
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USA
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Posted: 4/23/2014 1:33:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: turnip75]
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SevenMaryThree:
Thank you for the reply. Reliability under normal use nonwithstanding, you cannot cut the S&G dial off of the door of a safe. The exposed electronics and wire are too much of an Achilles heel for me. I might want access to the contents in pretty short order after an event like a break in. Surely even frustrated kids would think to twist off the keypad and destroy it. I'd like to mitigate the risk of needing to schedule a service tech while I'm dealing with the other after effects of a burglary. Thanks again. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SevenMaryThree:
Originally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By SevenMaryThree:
TheSafeGuy - If the electronic pad on my AmSec is compromised by damage due to liquid, fire, or vandalism like smashing or cutting the wire and removing the keypad all together, what is involved in getting me back into the safe? The keypad is simply replaced. If the cable is damaged, then a new RJ11 can be installed. Worst case, the cable is cut flush to the door face, we use 4 probes into the wire ends to power the lock and enter the code from another keypad. There is always some spare cable looped inside. With a little finesse, one should be able to wiggle an inch or two out of the hole. There should be no reason to drill for this cause. Thank you for the reply. Reliability under normal use nonwithstanding, you cannot cut the S&G dial off of the door of a safe. The exposed electronics and wire are too much of an Achilles heel for me. I might want access to the contents in pretty short order after an event like a break in. Surely even frustrated kids would think to twist off the keypad and destroy it. I'd like to mitigate the risk of needing to schedule a service tech while I'm dealing with the other after effects of a burglary. Thanks again. A safe's ultimate function is to prevent unauthorized access to it's contents, and if it does, it's done it's job. A safe is just a tool used to make a bad event like a fire or burglary "less bad", that's it. Like a car's safety features are designed solely to protect the occupants, not to minimize the owner's repair costs. So if your safe is attacked, it will probably require a repair of some sorts and any expectations otherwise are not realistic. This can also be applied to the people who can't fathom that the contents of a fire safe will get wet during a fire. Would they rather them be wet or burnt? It's all about making a bad situation better. If you have a mechanical lock and your safe is attacked, when they smash off the dial (not hard to do it and it happens about 95% of the time) it will fire the internal and external relockers and require drilling. With an electronic lock that doesn't have a spindle, you're much closer to a 50/50 chance that you can splice on a new keypad and open the safe. It's all going to depend on the attack and tools used. But you definitely have a better shot at a repair without drilling using an electronic lock. Do you expect your car to not need any repairs after an accident? Or do you just expect it to keep the occupants as uninjured as possible? A safe should the last line of defense for your stuff and the reality is it will probably never be attacked in a residential setting. That's a good thing and other security measures like cameras, alarms, and not putting it next to your living room window, will make the chance of it being attacked even more remote. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/23/2014 2:42:41 PM EDT
[#23]
Friends of mine are storing ammo in a Knaack job box, or something similar, in their garages. I realize that this offers security, but no fire protection. What would be a cost-effective method to store ammo to provide some security and protect, frankly, the firefighters, and should it be stored in the garage or in the basement? Suggestions?
Thanks. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 2:43:33 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By turnip75:A safe's ultimate function is to prevent unauthorized access to it's contents, and if it does, it's done it's job. A safe is just a tool used to make a bad event like a fire or burglary "less bad", that's it. Like a car's safety features are designed solely to protect the occupants, not to minimize the owner's repair costs. So if your safe is attacked, it will probably require a repair of some sorts and any expectations otherwise are not realistic. This can also be applied to the people who can't fathom that the contents of a fire safe will get wet during a fire. Would they rather them be wet or burnt? It's all about making a bad situation better.
If you have a mechanical lock and your safe is attacked, when they smash off the dial (not hard to do it and it happens about 95% of the time) it will fire the internal and external relockers and require drilling. With an electronic lock that doesn't have a spindle, you're much closer to a 50/50 chance that you can splice on a new keypad and open the safe. It's all going to depend on the attack and tools used. But you definitely have a better shot at a repair without drilling using an electronic lock. Do you expect your car to not need any repairs after an accident? Or do you just expect it to keep the occupants as uninjured as possible? A safe should the last line of defense for your stuff and the reality is it will probably never be attacked in a residential setting. That's a good thing and other security measures like cameras, alarms, and not putting it next to your living room window, will make the chance of it being attacked even more remote. Great post Turnip, dead right, thanks... |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 2:47:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ColoradoNative:
Friends of mine are storing ammo in a Knaack job box, or something similar, in their garages. I realize that this offers security, but no fire protection. What would be a cost-effective method to store ammo to provide some security and protect, frankly, the firefighters, and should it be stored in the garage or in the basement? Suggestions? Thanks. I have built a cabinet in my garage lined with 2 layers of drywall. The door of the cabinet has the same. The door is secured with a padlock. That will probably prevent ignition of the ammo for a good 30 minutes unless the blaze is all around that point from the start. It's not incredible security, but at least it's not adding fuel to the flames before the fire department shows up and douses the inferno. It would be pretty simple to enclose your Knaack box in a similar encasement like a box freezer. It doesn't even need to be anchored to the floor, just four walls and a hinged top. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 2:54:33 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
The ESL5 is in the final stages of listing now. There have been some delays with our production cycle, but it should be completed very soon. The ES1214 is not a product we make, it is an imported safe we contracted as a special edition unit. The Fingerprint Reader works very well in our testing, and so far it has proven to be reliable with no service failures I have heard about. We have a couple units in the office that get regular use in daily business, and they work great. However, this is a lock that we have tested to 1 million cycles to be honest. Testing a fingerprint recognition device that many times is difficult, as you might imagine. My honest opinion, I would not use ANY fingerprint reader for fast-access weapon storage. They wok -most- of the time, but not -every- time. We found that if you enroll your favorite finger 4-5 times with slightly different positioning on each one, the success rate increases significantly. But, even with that, this one fails to read one our maybe 10 times on the first try for me. One of the guys in the office has never had a failed read. Biometrics are always squirrely, and the subject traits can affect the success rates substantially. For example, Asians have very faint fingerprint ridges and definition. These things don't work well for them at all. You can downgrade the pass resolution so it passes at a higher rate, but then you compromise security as a result. [/span][/span] Do you anticipate that the ESL5 will be available as an option on all AMSEC models in the near future? I ended up deciding against using the ES1214 as a pistol safe for the reasons you mentioned above. I'm now planning to purchase an MS1414, and I'd really like to get one with the ESL5 because of the light up keypad. The problem I am encountering is that no one seems to sell the MS1414 with an ESL5. I'm not in a big rush, so I'm wondering if that safe/lock combo will be available soon if I just wait a bit longer. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 2:58:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By P400:
Do you anticipate that the ESL5 will be available as an option on all AMSEC models in the near future? I ended up deciding against using the ES1214 as a pistol safe for the reasons you mentioned above. I'm now planning to purchase an MS1414, and I'd really like to get one with the ESL5 because of the light up keypad. The problem I am encountering is that no one seems to sell the MS1414 with an ESL5. I'm not in a big rush, so I'm wondering if that safe/lock combo will be available soon if I just wait a bit longer. We will start selling the ESL5 as a retrofit kit once we have the UL Label on the lock. That should be very soon, but it may take a while to make it's way to retailers. I'll let you know when this is done. I am forever amazed at how long this process takes and how much it costs. UGH! |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 3:04:06 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
We will start selling the ESL5 as a retrofit kit once we have the UL Label on the lock. That should be very soon, but it may take a while to make it's way to retailers. I'll let you know when this is done. I am forever amazed at how long this process takes and how much it costs. UGH! Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By P400:
Do you anticipate that the ESL5 will be available as an option on all AMSEC models in the near future? I ended up deciding against using the ES1214 as a pistol safe for the reasons you mentioned above. I'm now planning to purchase an MS1414, and I'd really like to get one with the ESL5 because of the light up keypad. The problem I am encountering is that no one seems to sell the MS1414 with an ESL5. I'm not in a big rush, so I'm wondering if that safe/lock combo will be available soon if I just wait a bit longer. We will start selling the ESL5 as a retrofit kit once we have the UL Label on the lock. That should be very soon, but it may take a while to make it's way to retailers. I'll let you know when this is done. I am forever amazed at how long this process takes and how much it costs. UGH! UL moves slow, huh? Well I'm happy to hear that they are in the works at least. Will the ESL5 kits be priced similarly to the ESL10 kits? If that is the case I may just order a MS1414 with a manual combination lock and swap them myself when the retrofit kits hit the market. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 4/23/2014 3:22:03 PM EDT
[#29]
Looking for the esl10 and all I can find online is info about the esl10xl. Are these the same or are they two different locks? If different will the xl fit the fv6032 safe?
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Posted: 4/23/2014 3:58:51 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By berry79:
Looking for the esl10 and all I can find online is info about the esl10xl. Are these the same or are they two different locks? If different will the xl fit the fv6032 safe? Technically, today's version is the ESL10XL. The ESL10 was the prior version with a plastic keypad. This keypad change and new model designation took place in early 2007. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/23/2014 4:01:03 PM EDT
[#31]
If I need to purchase a Knaack, or similar job box, I incur the cost of the box plus the framing and drywall to enclose it. To clarify, I would like a cost-effective safe recommendation for the purpose of storing the ammo. What product line do you folks think would do the job?
Thanks. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 4:01:54 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By P400:
Will the ESL5 kits be priced similarly to the ESL10 kits? I would anticipate the ESL5 to be a lower cost by a fair margin. By how much will be decided by others. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 4:03:54 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ColoradoNative:
To clarify, I would like a cost-effective safe recommendation for the purpose of storing the ammo. What product line do you folks think would do the job? Thanks. Well, any of the FV series safes would serve that purpose very well. So would the AM series of smaller fire-lined safes. Pick a size that suits your arsenal. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/23/2014 4:14:37 PM EDT
[#34]
Great -- so you think that 30 (AM series) - 45 minutes (FV series) of fire protection is sufficient to protect the firefighters? Why did you recommend the FV gun safe series over the TF for this purpose?
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Posted: 4/23/2014 4:59:38 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ColoradoNative:
Great -- so you think that 30 (AM series) - 45 minutes (FV series) of fire protection is sufficient to protect the firefighters? Why did you recommend the FV gun safe series over the TF for this purpose? I am not absolutely sure, but I think that the flash point for the ammo is quite high, and a 30-45 minute safe should provide more time than than the ratings before the temperatures become dangerously high. I read somewhere that the ignition temperature for ammo is something over 500ºF. I skipped the TF because they are not much bigger than the AM safes by volume. The TF safes would do well too. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/23/2014 5:46:29 PM EDT
[#36]
Link to: Sporting Ammunition in a Fire is Safe for Firefighters if it is NOT Loaded in the Chamber of a Firearm
http://publicsafetyproject.org/blog/2013/02/13/sporting-ammo-in-fire-safe-for-firefighters-if-not-in-chamber-of-firearm/ Also includes link to the SAAMI YouTube video demonstration. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/23/2014 6:05:37 PM EDT
[#37]
To all: Thanks for the info on ammo storage. I've got some ideas to look into.
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Posted: 4/23/2014 6:10:17 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Col_B:
Link to: Sporting Ammunition in a Fire is Safe for Firefighters if it is NOT Loaded in the Chamber of a Firearm http://publicsafetyproject.org/blog/2013/02/13/sporting-ammo-in-fire-safe-for-firefighters-if-not-in-chamber-of-firearm/ Also includes link to the SAAMI YouTube video demonstration. It may be true that the ammo does not present a projectile threat to firefighters, but that does not mean that a pile of ammo does not contribute considerably to the fire by adding a lot of volatile fuel. The cook-off of ammo raises burn temperatures considerably, and the violent combustion can definitely contribute to rapid spread of the flames. I think the point here was that a safe or fire containment space will likely preserve the ammo, and likely help to prevent greater spread of the fire. |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 4/24/2014 6:41:12 PM EDT
[#39]
i thought you previously said not to store ammo in those safes as it would explode TSG?
ammo in a room everyone knows is safe, they ship it all the time on multiple types of conveyances... however ammo in a hardened structure as it pops off might only slightly raise pressures causing a safe to crack or rupture, but i suspect it would take alot of it going at the same time to blow the safe up like a powder keg where the safe is now the barrel of the gun to hold the pressure in and cause a more violent release...? |
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Posted: 4/24/2014 8:34:56 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cj_the_pj:
i thought you previously said not to store ammo in those safes as it would explode TSG? ammo in a room everyone knows is safe, they ship it all the time on multiple types of conveyances... however ammo in a hardened structure as it pops off might only slightly raise pressures causing a safe to crack or rupture, but i suspect it would take alot of it going at the same time to blow the safe up like a powder keg where the safe is now the barrel of the gun to hold the pressure in and cause a more violent release...? The question was answered in the context that the safe would only be used to store ammo. I would not speculate about what might happen when the safe got hot enough to cook off the ammo. It would probably be ugly. But, the point was that these safes would probably delay the ammo ignition for an hour, maybe a lot more. Likely that the ammo would be salvageable if the fire was shorter that an hour. This is all speculation, we don't know how long it takes to get a 45 minute rated safe up over 500 degrees, if that's even the right temperature... Regardless of how the ammo burns, pops, explodes, or just hisses like a pist off snake, the ammo ignition is adding combustion fuel and that will make things a lot hotter very quickly. If the ignition of the ammo is violent and expanding gasses are escaping at really high rates, then the safe may explode... who knows? I don't want to be around to find out. |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 4/25/2014 2:05:06 AM EDT
[#41]
SAAMI has guidelines on the storage of ammo, smokeless powder, and primers.
you would be wise to follow it. bottom line, they do not recommend storing any of it in sealed containers of any kind. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 4/25/2014 7:27:02 PM EDT
[#42]
Just ordered the esl10 lock. They mentioned that electronic locks should only use alkaline batteries. I have no problem using alkaline, just wondering if there was any truth to this?
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Posted: 4/25/2014 9:45:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#43]
This was a post from another thread, planted here for the thirsty readers. [div style='margin-left: 40px;']Your concern with a safe is the stability of the climate. If the temperature in the space changes a lot, you should be taking active measures to prevent condensation inside the safe. The degree of temperature swing has everything to do with the complexity of your prevention methods. Our worries with humidity damaging the safe contents is all about "dew-point". The Dew-point is the temperature at which the relative humidity becomes 100%. Condensation happens on objects where the object is cooler than the surrounding air. The relative humidity in the air determines the temperature at which the water vapor begins to condense. Look at the Dew-point chart below. If the temperature in the room is 75ºF, and the %RH is 85%, then from the chart the Dewpoint is 70ºF. So, what that means is that if you introduce an object in that room that is colder than 70º, then the surface of that object will begin to collect condensing water vapor from the air. This is why your ice-cold beer has condensation all over it. The surface of the beer can is well below the Dew-point in the surrounding environment. 
So, in terms of a safe, our concern is with rapid temperature change. Under steady state conditions, we have no worries because everything equalizes to the room temperature. The guns in the safe are the same temperature as the surrounding air inside and outside the safe. Unless you are at 100% humidity, there won't be any condensation. Now, let's say your safe is in a cold room at 60º. The safe is closed, so it adapts to the ambient temperature outside very slowly. Now the room is warmed to 70º by sun or forced heating. The RH in the room is 80%. Now, you open the safe. The 70º air then circulates in the safe, and because the Dew-point is 63º, you start to see the guns collecting dew (condensation). The Dew-point is higher than the surface temperature of the guns. If your safe is in a climate controlled room, where the temperature may swing less than 3-5 degrees, a simple dry-rod dehumidifier inside the safe will be adequate. That device basically raises the temperature a few degrees inside the safe so that you are always above the environmental dew-point. If your temperature swings much more than that, you need to take active measures with DE-humidifying methods. |
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Posted: 4/25/2014 11:49:20 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By berry79:
Just ordered the esl10 lock. They mentioned that electronic locks should only use alkaline batteries. I have no problem using alkaline, just wondering if there was any truth to this? Anything less than Alkaline won't deliver enough punch to open the locks. This green movement has robbed the low-cost disposable battery marketplace of power. Without lead and mercury, batteries are junk now. The name brand Alkaline batteries, EverReady and Duracell, are barely adequate to do the job now, but that's the best we have to choose. You would not believe the headaches we have getting good batteries offshore now. The best Chinese and Malaysian batteries are useless, even made under the big names. I could go on about batteries forever... this is a sore subject. |
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Posted: 4/26/2014 12:46:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: heeler1]
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Anything less than Alkaline won't deliver enough punch to open the locks. This green movement has robbed the low-cost disposable battery marketplace of power. Without lead and mercury, batteries are junk now. The name brand Alkaline batteries, EverReady and Duracell, are barely adequate to do the job now, but that's the best we have to choose. You would not believe the headaches we have getting good batteries offshore now. The best Chinese and Malaysian batteries are useless, even made under the big names. I could go on about batteries forever... this is a sore subject. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheSafeGuy:
Originally Posted By berry79:
Just ordered the esl10 lock. They mentioned that electronic locks should only use alkaline batteries. I have no problem using alkaline, just wondering if there was any truth to this? Anything less than Alkaline won't deliver enough punch to open the locks. This green movement has robbed the low-cost disposable battery marketplace of power. Without lead and mercury, batteries are junk now. The name brand Alkaline batteries, EverReady and Duracell, are barely adequate to do the job now, but that's the best we have to choose. You would not believe the headaches we have getting good batteries offshore now. The best Chinese and Malaysian batteries are useless, even made under the big names. I could go on about batteries forever... this is a sore subject. Really?? I had no idea batteries are now that bad. What happens five years from now if these types of batteries are phased out?? I just took a look at a 9 volt Energizer battery on my desk and it says alkaline and made in the USA. Maybe someone will come up with a lithium long life battery that will fire the locks. |
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Posted: 4/26/2014 6:12:57 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By heeler1:
Really?? I had no idea batteries are now that bad. What happens five years from now if these types of batteries are phased out?? I just took a look at a 9 volt Energizer battery on my desk and it says alkaline and made in the USA. Maybe someone will come up with a lithium long life battery that will fire the locks. Well, non-rechargeable batteries, the cheap ones we all use daily, are designed and serve devices that draw low current at a steady rate for long periods. E-Locks are unique. They run 24-7 drawing current in the micro-amp range in sleep mode. We then wake the system up, and they draw some moderate number of milliamps. Then, the big blast is required to pull back a solenoid. On most locks, that spike is on the order of amps or tenths of amps. So, the power goes from microamps to hundreds of milliamps. This spike is on the order of more than 100,000 times the sleep current load. So what you say? Well, all of these batteries are rated for loads that are much lower, and the older Mercury and Lead based chemistry supported this span because it was robust enough to do that. Now that the concerns about contaminating the environment have become so prevalent, the green movement has caused the battery manufactures to choose less efficient chemistry and materials. The conventional devices we use these cells in still work pretty well, and the rating methods didn't need to change because they were all based on low current constant demands. But, for products like E-Locks that demand extraordinary power responses, they no longer serve us well. We have seen the battery cycle life fall around 30% in the past few years. There are plenty of choices for better batteries, but they are all much more expensive. A good Lithium Ion or Lithium Polymer battery costs 10 times more than an alkaline non-rechargeable battery. In addition, those cell types are rechargeable, and need additional support with a transformer, wiring and charge circuitry. |
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Posted: 4/27/2014 9:27:16 PM EDT
[#47]
TSG, could you explain the difference between the standard bolt and swingbolt ESL locks? Is there any advantage to using one over the other?
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OK, USA
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Posted: 4/27/2014 10:58:27 PM EDT
[#48]
Im guessing that if a guy had an ESL10 and was worried about the quality of 9V batteries you could get a XL20 keypad because it can hold dual batteries
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Posted: 4/28/2014 11:34:29 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By P400:
TSG, could you explain the difference between the standard bolt and swingbolt ESL locks? Is there any advantage to using one over the other? The Swingbolt lock uses a small solenoid that that rotates into the lock body when the lock is open and boltwork acts to push it out of the way. The "standard" bolt lock is simply a large solenoid pulling the bolt into the lock case so the boltwork can move past the lock. From a security perspective, both locks serve an equivalent function. The Swingbolt takes an advantage from the perspective of power consumption, where the ESL5 Swingbolt solenoid draws about 1/6 the power required to pull the larger solenoid in the ESL10/20 lock family. That has obvious advantages. |
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Posted: 4/28/2014 11:38:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TheSafeGuy]
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tyromeo55:
Im guessing that if a guy had an ESL10 and was worried about the quality of 9V batteries you could get a XL20 keypad because it can hold dual batteries Yea, your a little confused. The ESL5 uses a single 9V battery. The ESL10XL and ESL20XL locks both use two 9V batteries. The bad news... the keypads are NOT interchangeable. The ESL5 keypad is different, because it has LED back-lighted keys. So, the circuits and lamp control logic differ, which makes the two types of keypads unique. |
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