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Reduced loads in the .223. (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 2/27/2015 6:49:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 22_boomer][Edited]
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Right now I have a manual AR with a charging handle on the right side of the receiver similar to the type sold by DPMS. There is no gas system and I use the rifle as a kind of bolt action and it was built using extra parts I had. I shoot reduced loads using Unique powder and 30gr burger bullets and 40gr V-max bullets. The powder charge is actually kinda high at 7.5gr for the 40 V-max and 8.0gr for the 30gr Barnes bullet. I was just wondering if anybody here had tried reduced loads using 65 to 70 grain bullets? My barrel twist is 1:7 since I'm using a standard chrome lined GI barrel. The light bullets shoot fairly well but I had some heavier bullets available and was not sure of the powder charge using Unique.
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I've used 4.0gr of Red Dot under ~50gr bullets successfully. Approx. 1500fps and 2 - 3MOA groups. I think Twitchy had a heavy bullet load that was stable from a 1:7 SBR, but it was position sensitive. ETA: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/422581__ARCHIVED_THREAD____Anyone_have_a_good_load_for_Red_Dot_in__223_.html&page=1#i4009765 |
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Originally Posted By We-rBorg: If you're using a standard barrel,, how did you plug the port? Maybe that's why he shoots light loads.   I've heard of rotating the gas block 180* to block the port. Not sure if it works properly. |
"The .30-06 is never a mistake." - Townsend Whelen
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Originally Posted By HighpowerRifleBrony:
I've used 4.0gr of Red Dot under ~50gr bullets successfully. Approx. 1500fps and 2 - 3MOA groups. I think Twitchy had a heavy bullet load that was stable from a 1:7 SBR, but it was position sensitive. ETA: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/422581__ARCHIVED_THREAD____Anyone_have_a_good_load_for_Red_Dot_in__223_.html&page=1#i4009765 Thanks for that link. I've read a lot of threads "On Line" that talked about using Red Dot, Green Dot and some other fast burning powders besides Unique. Right now all I have is Unique and it has worked really well for me so I hate to change. I originally started out shooting 22 caliber cast bullets and and could not seem to figure them out so I went to the jacketed bullets and the accuracy came back. I know shooting cast through a 1:7 twist barrel is kind of a no-no and maybe in time I'll get a GM 1:12 twist barrel and try again. I really need to try those lower powder charges and see if I can get the velocities down to 22lr standard or high velocity speeds. I built the rifle for plinking and small game hunting. The .223 brass is so easy to find that I figured there must be something else I can do with it. I originally started out with the 5.7X28 cartridge in a gas gun setup and then decided to go to the manual setup so I could play with the powder charges. You can't get too low with the slower powders without a detonation so I went to the Unique powder and could shoot the 30gr Barnes bullets using 3.7gr of Unique. The problem there was the 5.7X28 brass is not very strong and didn't like the fast powder so I went to the .223/5.56 brass in a new setup. Below is a picture of the 5.7X28 manual rifle. I would shoot under 1/4" at 50 yards if I payed attention to my reloading. The barrel is a 1:14 twist so bullet weight/length is limited but good for plinking and small game.  
My .223 manual rifle looks pretty much the same except the barrel is a GI profile and uses standard handguards right now. |
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Someone here posted a light load a while back. It was a 55 gr. fmjbt. using 4 gr. of Trailboss for about 1150fps.
I tried that load but it produced keyholes in my 1 in 12 in twist bbl. of a single shot Rossi. I could have tried it in one of my AR's but didn't want to dirty up the bbl.. Maybe your faster twist will do better, |
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Originally Posted By SAN14:
Someone here posted a light load a while back. It was a 55 gr. fmjbt. using 4 gr. of Trailboss for about 1150fps. I tried that load but it produced keyholes in my 1 in 12 in twist bbl. of a single shot Rossi. I could have tried it in one of my AR's but didn't want to dirty up the bbl.. Maybe your faster twist will do better, I'm hoping it will shoot the 55gr bullets ok. I already did a bunch of rounds in the 30gr bullets and some with the 40gr bullets and the 55's i'm trying are Hornady SP varmint bullets. If the 55gr bullets work ok I'm going to look for some really inexpensive bullets to to try out. Armscor makes some cheap 62gr bullets and Midsouth shooters has 34gr Varmint nightmare Xtreme bullets for a good price. |
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H4895 allows for reduced loads for any published H4895 loads
Read about reduced H4895 loads |
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Originally Posted By jamie930:
H4895 allows for reduced loads for any published H4895 loads Read about reduced H4895 loads I've seen those reduced loads but they really aren't what I was looking for. The are 60% of a full charge and I was looking more for the charges that required only a few grains of powder. I appreciate the information because it could be useful in other rounds I have. |
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Originally Posted By SAN14:
Someone here posted a light load a while back. It was a 55 gr. fmjbt. using 4 gr. of Trailboss for about 1150fps. I tried that load but it produced keyholes in my 1 in 12 in twist bbl. of a single shot Rossi. I could have tried it in one of my AR's but didn't want to dirty up the bbl.. Maybe your faster twist will do better, 3.8gr of trail boss and a hornady 55gr FMJ gave me about 1040fps from a 16" 1/7 twist upper ETA: at 100 yards no keyholing |
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Originally Posted By 22_boomer:
I've seen those reduced loads but they really aren't what I was looking for. The are 60% of a full charge and I was looking more for the charges that required only a few grains of powder. I appreciate the information because it could be useful in other rounds I have. Originally Posted By 22_boomer:
Originally Posted By jamie930:
H4895 allows for reduced loads for any published H4895 loads Read about reduced H4895 loads I've seen those reduced loads but they really aren't what I was looking for. The are 60% of a full charge and I was looking more for the charges that required only a few grains of powder. I appreciate the information because it could be useful in other rounds I have. 3gr TG 55 gr hornady or other BTFMJ 2.20 OAL. last chrono was showing 1090~ |
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Originally Posted By We-rBorg:
Just go ahead and go the Hodgdon data site, there are three published under Trail Boss, TiteGroup, and Clays. This is what you want. Thank me later, LOL That is a good site for locating really light powder charges for the .223 Rem case. My problem right now is I don't have any of those powders and need to wait for the next gun show to hopefully find some. Finding specific powders here is kind of hit and miss but I'll make up a list of powder I can use besides Unique and start looking for them. |
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Went to the range today and tried out the .223 ammo loaded with 30gr Barnes Varmint Grenade, 40gr Hornady V-max and 55gr Hornady Varmint SP bullets at the 50 yard range. This all shot in my manual AR -- sorry I don't have any pics of the setup at this time but it kinda looks like the special DPMS side charging upper with the charging handle on the right side. I really had fun shooting and the bullet that did the best was the 30gr Varmint Grenade over 8.0gr of Unique. The 40gr V-max bullets and the 55gr Hornady SP bullets did really well -- they both shot inside 1/2" but not as good as the 30gr varmint grenades that went into a group you could cover with the end of your thumb. The wind was blowing pretty good and it was knocking me around a lot but it was still fun shooting the rounds and I was surprised at how well the light weight bullets did in the old 1:7 twist chrome lined barrel I was using. I would imagine that the 30gr Barnes bullet was probably up around 2300fps and the 40gr Hornady should have been around 2160fps with the lighter 7.5gr load of Unique per the information I have printed out. Now, if I can find some inexpensive light weight bullets like maybe the 34gr varmint nightmare Xtreme that Midsouth Shooters sells in bulk boxes. This could be a nice short range varmint setup. By the way, I used CCI 450 small rifle magnum primers in all the rounds. Another nice thing about the loads is they were all really easy to extract and eject.
Edit to add picture of manually operated AR for the .223 cartridge. 
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| Ok, so I decided I really like shooting these reduced loads so I figured I should get a barrel that has a more correct twist rate than the one I'm using (1:7 twist). I just ordered a Green Mountain 1:12 twist barrel and I need to locate a gas block that I will plug that will fit the smaller diameter gas block area. Hope the barrel get here soon. |
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What I was wondering was, with the available fast powders, has anybody tried to see how their bullets grouped on targets. I wish I had taken a cell phone picture of mine since both the 40gr V-max and 30gr Barnes grouped pretty darn good at 50 yards but these rounds where to be centerfire replacements for 22 magnum ammo that can't be found around here and actually shot better than most of the 22 magnum ammo I've tried -- that's the reason for shooting at 50 yards. My big problem now will be finding a cheap 0.625 diameter gas block to use to plug the gas port on the barrel. I don't want to screw with the barrel but plugging a cheap gas block is not a problem.
The other manual rifle that shoots 5.7X28 cartridges is a real hoot to shoot since it's super accurate at 50 yards but the brass is a pain to work with and I'd really rather work with the .223 brass and see if the new barrel will give me the same accuracy. Hey "Highpowerriflebrony" I saw your targets over on the other thread and wondered if you went any further with the load development? I believe you said you used Red Dot -- I've got to try and locate some of that my self. |
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Originally Posted By 22_boomer: -snip- Hey "Highpowerriflebrony" I saw your targets over on the other thread and wondered if you went any further with the load development? I believe you said you used Red Dot -- I've got to try and locate some of that my self. I did not. I didn't have enough RD for my bullseye pistol league, so I thought, what the hell - why not scale down Harris' "The Load" for .223 and use it up? I need to pick up some more, still.  On my list is making a straight pull AR match rifle, which I'll use reduced loads for my local 100yd matches. Hehe, I'm surprised that no one has abbreviated my name to HRB or Herbie. |
"The .30-06 is never a mistake." - Townsend Whelen
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| I'll have two barrels for my rifle. The original GI HBR and the Green Mountain pencil barrel. I'm hoping that the 1:12 twist makes the groups even tighter. The best part of the manual AR besides it being kind of a test bed for different loads it also lets you eject the fired brass nice and easy so it can be found and reused. |
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Originally Posted By RIPRonReagan:
Not really what you're asking for, but I did some 3gr bullseye with the 45 grain Hornet bullets a while back trying to make subsonic loads for a buddy's rifle. I don't remember specifics but I think my load is 7gr 5 gr trailboss under a 55gr fmj. I'll check. 
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"A man's soul can be judged by the way he treats his dog."
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Originally Posted By Dash_ISpy:
I don't remember specifics but I think my load is 7gr trailboss under a 55gr fmj. I'll check. Originally Posted By Dash_ISpy:
Originally Posted By RIPRonReagan:
Not really what you're asking for, but I did some 3gr bullseye with the 45 grain Hornet bullets a while back trying to make subsonic loads for a buddy's rifle. I don't remember specifics but I think my load is 7gr trailboss under a 55gr fmj. I'll check. I don't know why but Trail Boss is not to be found around here. Either a lot of people have discovered reduced loads or there just wasn't demand for it. I hate to buy that type of stuff off line and have to pay the hazmat fees. |
Did you ask if they could just omit the gas port when you ordered the barrel? I know I have seen that done by people with rifles similar to yours. Might even save a buck or two 
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Originally Posted By swingset
No one wants to eat right and exercise, and lower their stress levels, all of which will come in a lot more handy than a home defense carbine and chest rig
ANIMUS
Rude pricks need a serious traumatic life experie
No one wants to eat right and exercise, and lower their stress levels, all of which will come in a lot more handy than a home defense carbine and chest rig
ANIMUS
Rude pricks need a serious traumatic life experie
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Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE:
Did you ask if they could just omit the gas port when you ordered the barrel? I know I have seen that done by people with rifles similar to yours. Might even save a buck or two I'll be honest with you, I never thought that was a possibility. I went through the twist rate formulas and found that as you go slower with a specific bullet the twist rate needs to increase some. I was wondering why the reduced loads being fired out of my 1:7 twist barrel were doing so well even though the bullets were so small. I may find that I need to jack up the velocity some in the 1:12 barrel so they will work ok but when I decide to go down to the subsonic stuff I may need to switch back to the 1:7 barrel again. In that case I can just stick a good old gas block and gas tube on the 1:12 barrel and shoot regular ammo. I've got an SP1 upper now with a pencil barrel and it is nice due to the light weight but there was no way I was going to pull that upper apart to play with reduced loads. |
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Originally Posted By 22_boomer:
I don't know why but Trail Boss is not to be found around here. Either a lot of people have discovered reduced loads or there just wasn't demand for it. I hate to buy that type of stuff off line and have to pay the hazmat fees. Originally Posted By 22_boomer:
Originally Posted By Dash_ISpy:
Originally Posted By RIPRonReagan:
Not really what you're asking for, but I did some 3gr bullseye with the 45 grain Hornet bullets a while back trying to make subsonic loads for a buddy's rifle. I don't remember specifics but I think my load is 5gr trailboss under a 55gr fmj. I'll check. I don't know why but Trail Boss is not to be found around here. Either a lot of people have discovered reduced loads or there just wasn't demand for it. I hate to buy that type of stuff off line and have to pay the hazmat fees. I bought a couple pounds of it here locally. I figure at 5gr per load I can make a few thousand.
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"A man's soul can be judged by the way he treats his dog."
Comrade Sniper of the Glorious People's .40 S&W Army
Comrade Sniper of the Glorious People's .40 S&W Army
| Just got finished pulling my existing manual AR upper apart to make it ready for the new GM 1:12 twist barrel. I also pulled apart another rifle that was my pride and joy till the ammo got too hard to find or too expensive to make it worth while. I had a 17HMR AR that shot like a dream and never gave me any trouble -- except for a lack of ammo. I'm saving the parts in case things change in the future. I'm putting the GI HBAR 1:7 twist barrel in that receiver and instead of the side charging handle I'll use a Tac-latch for ejecting the rounds. This way I can test the reduced loads in two different twists to see what works best for me. |
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Originally Posted By Dash_ISpy:
I bought a couple pounds of it here locally. I figure at 5gr per load I can make a few thousand.
Originally Posted By Dash_ISpy:
Originally Posted By 22_boomer:
Originally Posted By Dash_ISpy:
Originally Posted By RIPRonReagan:
Not really what you're asking for, but I did some 3gr bullseye with the 45 grain Hornet bullets a while back trying to make subsonic loads for a buddy's rifle. I don't remember specifics but I think my load is 5gr trailboss under a 55gr fmj. I'll check. I don't know why but Trail Boss is not to be found around here. Either a lot of people have discovered reduced loads or there just wasn't demand for it. I hate to buy that type of stuff off line and have to pay the hazmat fees. I bought a couple pounds of it here locally. I figure at 5gr per load I can make a few thousand.
That is exactly why I decided to get into the reduced loads for the .223. It's a popular round so brass is easy to find and everybody sells 22 caliber bullets. I was just wondering if anybody knows if some company makes a gas block that has something like an on-off switch or valve in the gas block. I don't want to have to mess with an adjustment screw I wanted something like is found on the gas block for piston systems where you can turn an adjustment knob and shut the system off but I want it for a regular gas block used for the DI system. Also, the barrel is a pencil barrel so the gas block area is only 0.625" in diameter. Right now I can just cut the gas system off for the reduced loads but later on I may want to use the gas system for full load rounds. |
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Originally Posted By 22_boomer:
That is exactly why I decided to get into the reduced loads for the .223. It's a popular round so brass is easy to find and everybody sells 22 caliber bullets. I was just wondering if anybody knows if some company makes a gas block that has something like an on-off switch or valve in the gas block. I don't want to have to mess with an adjustment screw I wanted something like is found on the gas block for piston systems where you can turn an adjustment knob and shut the system off but I want it for a regular gas block used for the DI system. Also, the barrel is a pencil barrel so the gas block area is only 0.625" in diameter. Right now I can just cut the gas system off for the reduced loads but later on I may want to use the gas system for full load rounds. Originally Posted By 22_boomer:
Originally Posted By Dash_ISpy:
Originally Posted By 22_boomer:
Originally Posted By Dash_ISpy:
Originally Posted By RIPRonReagan:
Not really what you're asking for, but I did some 3gr bullseye with the 45 grain Hornet bullets a while back trying to make subsonic loads for a buddy's rifle. I don't remember specifics but I think my load is 5gr trailboss under a 55gr fmj. I'll check. I don't know why but Trail Boss is not to be found around here. Either a lot of people have discovered reduced loads or there just wasn't demand for it. I hate to buy that type of stuff off line and have to pay the hazmat fees. I bought a couple pounds of it here locally. I figure at 5gr per load I can make a few thousand.
That is exactly why I decided to get into the reduced loads for the .223. It's a popular round so brass is easy to find and everybody sells 22 caliber bullets. I was just wondering if anybody knows if some company makes a gas block that has something like an on-off switch or valve in the gas block. I don't want to have to mess with an adjustment screw I wanted something like is found on the gas block for piston systems where you can turn an adjustment knob and shut the system off but I want it for a regular gas block used for the DI system. Also, the barrel is a pencil barrel so the gas block area is only 0.625" in diameter. Right now I can just cut the gas system off for the reduced loads but later on I may want to use the gas system for full load rounds. Try taking a standard front sight tower, cut it down to the size you need, then drill a hole into it where the gas comes up from the barrel. Then you could take something like a blank clevis pin, drill out a hole through it at the proper port size at the right depth, then, a smaller hole for a roll pin on the opposite side, notch the opposite side of the gas block with a small spring that will fit over the clevis with the roll pin to apply pressure. Don't know if I've explained it to where you could understand what I'm trying to say,, just look at am M1A's gas shut off valve and copy it for the AR. I've been meaning to do it myself, but can't seem to find the time. I would make it to where it was easy to get to and easy to turn off. Let your imagination run wild.. |
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Originally Posted By We-rBorg:
Try taking a standard front sight tower, cut it down to the size you need, then drill a hole into it where the gas comes up from the barrel. Then you could take something like a blank clevis pin, drill out a hole through it at the proper port size at the right depth, then, a smaller hole for a roll pin on the opposite side, notch the opposite side of the gas block with a small spring that will fit over the clevis with the roll pin to apply pressure. Don't know if I've explained it to where you could understand what I'm trying to say,, just look at am M1A's gas shut off valve and copy it for the AR. I've been meaning to do it myself, but can't seem to find the time. I would make it to where it was easy to get to and easy to turn off. Let your imagination run wild.. I found something similar to what you said -- is this close? Somebody makes this but I couldn't find any contact info. |
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Looking at a regular sight tower, it would weaken the block too much with just one small strip holding it together.
Looks like it would work on one of the cheap $20 lo pro blocks though and it would have to a smaller cross pin that the one pic Or- link |
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Originally Posted By We-rBorg:
Looking at a regular sight tower, it would weaken the block too much with just one small strip holding it together. Looks like it would work on one of the cheap $20 lo pro blocks though and it would have to a smaller cross pin that the one pic Or- link that gas block in the link is nice and a good price. My problem is the gas block area on my project barrel is 0.625" in diameter so I have even more of a problem. I've found a few and they all are expensive so I will either just block off the gas or build my own adjustable block. I like the adjustable that has the adjustment screw at the front or muzzle end of the block -- not on the side but that's just me. |
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Originally Posted By We-rBorg: Looking at a regular sight tower, it would weaken the block too much with just one small strip holding it together. Looks like it would work on one of the cheap $20 lo pro blocks though and it would have to a smaller cross pin that the one pic Or- link Glad you got your link posted.  |
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I got the upper put back together with the GM 1:12 twist barrel and I just used a low profile gas block with a piece of gas tube installed and pinned in place. If I decide to make the gas system function I can remove the pin and install a full length gas tube. Pictured below is the upper with the GM barrel but it's on a full stock lower and I actually plan to use a carbine stock but it's locked away right now. I plan on testing powder charges running from 5.5gr up to 7.5gr of Unique. Unique is the only powder I have that I can use for this. The other test upper (not pictured) is a GI HBAR 1:7 twist and I just want to see how much difference there is in the accuracy between the two barrels. I will be mostly using Hornady 40gr V-max with some test with Barnes 30gr Varmint Grenade bullets.
Picture shows upper with the bolt closed. 
picture shows upper with the bolt locked back. Operating the action is smooth and easy and there is no worry about will the gas system operate with these small loads and the brass falls right next to me. |
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OK -- more reduced loads in a different cartridge case. I'm trying a small case -- the 5.7X28. I have a gas operated (DI) AR and I made a manually operated AR for reduced 5.7X28 loads. The picture below is the 5.7X28 manual AR and it shoots super nice with 1/4" groups at 50 yards with reduced loads and using the Hornady 40gr V-max and the Barnes 30gr Varmint Grenade.
The original loads I used were for the Manual AR and were 6.5gr of H110 and 6.5gr of W296. If I went too much heavier with the powder the bolt would get a bit sticky and was hard to extract. I have recently started using 3.2gr of unique -- the same powder I've been using in the .223 reduced loads only a lot less powder for the 5.7X28. The FN 5.7X28 is not the strongest brass and pushing it, like I do in the gas operated AR, can cause the base to expand and the primer pockets get really loose. The 5.7X28 reduced loads was meant to allow me to shoot something a bit more powerful than the 22 magnum and using bullets of my choice. Another good side is the brass does not take a beating so I can reuse it over and over. In the picture below is the 5.7X28 with a 30gr Barnes reduced load round on the left and a .223 with a 40gr V-max reduced load on the right. 
I have not had a chance to test the 5.7X28 with the Unique powder other than firing into my bullet trap to verify I won't have a problem getting a bullet stuck in the barrel. The barrel on the 5.7X28 AR is actually a GM 22 magnum 1:14 twist barrel that was cut and had a barrel extension added so it will work in an AR. Since it's a manual AR there is no gas port. I plan to increase the amount of Unique powder and see at what point the brass gets tight in the chamber and extracting is a bit sticky. I'll then back off and try that for accuracy. |
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Originally Posted By HighpowerRifleBrony:
Do you crimp your .223? Yes and the reason is the 40gr V-max in the picture is set out a bit (COL is 2.23) and slamming the round into the chamber has at times caused un-crimped bullets to move forward in the case due to a lack of good neck tension. The bullet shown has a pretty good crimp and I have cut back on the depth of the crimps since then. |
Finally got to the range and test the different reduced loads for the .223 in a 1:7 twist barrel and a 1:12 twist barrel. The picture below is the 1:7 twist and loads from 6.0gr to 8.0gr of unique and Barnes 30gr, Hornady 35gr NTX and 40gr V-max.
The 2 orange target dots on the right and left of the picture were shot with the 35gr NTX bullets and 7.0gr of Unique. The target at the top right was shot with 30gr Barnes and 8.0gr of Unique and is the reason it's a bit high. All the groups on this target are 5 shot groups with some bullets being close to another shot or almost through the same hole. It was a bit breezy today and may be the reason the groups drifted from center to the left. The picture below is the 1:12 twist barrel shooting the exact same rounds as with the 1:7 twist barrel. 
On the above target the center group is 10 shots with the one hole off to the left being the first shot and I needed to adjust the scope to move the rest of the shots closer to center. All the rest of the groups are 5 shot groups with the odd one at the lower right being the Barnes 30gr and 6.0gr of unique. I honestly dont know why the first shot hit the bullseye and the next 4 shots were tight but a half inch lower. That odd group that is left of center was shot at the lines on the target sheet and was some of the 30gr Barnes bullets I just wanted to pop off. This was being shot from the 20" 1:12 twist barrel and it was free floated but it seemed to generate a vertical string on most of the groups. I think I'm going to convert the 1:12 barrel to a regular gas operated setup. It's a brand new barrel and is probably not even close to broken it but the the other 1:7 twist barrel is a nice HBAR chrome lined barrel and even though it's not free floated the heavy barrel is stiff enough to shoot really well and I'll continue to use it for my reduced loads. To be honest, all the bullets shot really well with the smaller groups being the rounds that had 6.0gr of Unique to 7.0gr of unique and the 30gr Barnes and the 35gr Hornady NTX bullets being a bit better than the 40gr V-max in both the fast twist and slow twist barrels. |
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Originally Posted By HighpowerRifleBrony:
50 yards, correct? Not too shabby. I was trying to make a round that was equal to or better than the 22 magnum and the 30gr and 35gr bullets are running between 2200fps and 2400fps depending on the powder charge. I was surprised that the 1:7 twist barrel did as well as it did since it actually is an old Colt HBAR barrel that I had laying around for years. I'll get a free float tube for the HBAR and make it my test barrel. The little 5.7X28 is actually another good little round in a manual rifle I made for it. I use 6.5gr of H110 or W296 and it shoots the same bullets a bit faster. |
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The next part of the project is reloading the FN 5.7X28 case. I made the mistake of removing the plastic coating from about 80 or 90 5.7X28 cases so I could polish them up and anneal the necks if necessary. Big mistake -- the cases with 3.5 to 4 grains of Unique fired great in the manual AR I have for them but the bare brass would not work in the FL die and would jam up. Trying to extract them from the FL die would rip the rim off and I used Imperial sizing wax on them. Tried the same loads in cases with that plastic coating and they ran through the FL die just fine -- nice and smooth. It seems FN has the coating on the cases to allow for better extraction on the P90 subgun so I'll have to clean the coated cases using something like Simple Green instead of throwing the cases in the vibrator polisher. I read that over time the vibrator polishers can take the coating off and I don't want that. If you look in the picture below the 5.7X28 case on the left looks really nice without that coating but pretty isn't everything.
I saved the polished cases so I can try them in my DI operated 5.7X28 AR. I don't think I'll have much more luck but the powder I use in the gas gun is slower and may not punch the case out as much and the Unique powder. I like these little cases because I think they would make a good replacement for 22 magnum using reduced loads. I can't find 22 magnum in my area for under $18 and I refuse to pay that. |
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Originally Posted By dryflash3:
This is an interesting thread 22_boomer. I'm going to set the "toggle" to keep this thread out of the archives. Gosh, I really appreciate that. I wasn't sure anybody really cared about this stuff but shooting the reduced loads actually is a lot of fun and very interesting. I have some health issues that won't allow me to handle much recoil so these loads work perfect for me. I would imagine subsonic loads would be of interest to those with suppressors and I'll try to test some of those. |
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Originally Posted By dryflash3:
This is an interesting thread 22_boomer. I'm going to set the "toggle" to keep this thread out of the archives. Thanks. Yeah, it is, too. I gotta add, you guys with AR manual rifles, well, they are actually good looking. A manual AR doesn't look bad at all. I am a bit confused about why 5.7 brass would be so much trouble to resize. |
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Originally Posted By EVR:
Thanks. Yeah, it is, too. I gotta add, you guys with AR manual rifles, well, they are actually good looking. A manual AR doesn't look bad at all. I am a bit confused about why 5.7 brass would be so much trouble to resize. Originally Posted By EVR:
Originally Posted By dryflash3:
This is an interesting thread 22_boomer. I'm going to set the "toggle" to keep this thread out of the archives. Thanks. Yeah, it is, too. I gotta add, you guys with AR manual rifles, well, they are actually good looking. A manual AR doesn't look bad at all. I am a bit confused about why 5.7 brass would be so much trouble to resize. The 5.7X28 with the coating is easy to resize even when I use a hot load -- I just put some Imperial sizing wax on the shell and it goes right through the sizing die. I thought the plastic coating looked crappy and I wanted to make the cases shine like my other brass so I removed the coating. With just 3.0gr of Unique the brass would fit tight in the sizing die and bind up even with the sizing wax on it. When I would try to extract the case from the FL die the rim would get ripped off. The 5.7X28 brass is not that strong at the base so with me screwing with the it, by removing the plastic coating, I screwed up about 80 to 100 cases -- I can't use them. I learned the hard way not to mess with the coating on the brass. Another thing is, since the base of the shell is so small and it is taken up mostly by the primer pocket, I have to be careful about running the loads too hot or the pocket will enlarge and the primers can actually fall out. One of the loads I use in the manual rifle is 6.5gr max of H110 or W296 and it doesn't seem to mess with the primer pocket. I can probably reload the same case many many times with no problem -- just don't mess with the coating. By the way, I can use full load commercial ammo in the manual .223 AR but I built it to play with light loads and even cast bullets and it has really been a fun project. I honestly have not tried full load commercial 5.7X28 ammo in the manual 5.7X28 AR since I'm just getting started with it and still working on the different loads and bullets. I think I can get away with using 55gr bullets in the slow twist of the 5.7X28 barrel (1:14) but I have not had a chance to try them yet. |
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Originally Posted By 22_boomer:
The 5.7X28 with the coating is easy to resize even when I use a hot load -- I just put some Imperial sizing wax on the shell and it goes right through the sizing die. I thought the plastic coating looked crappy and I wanted to make the cases shine like my other brass so I removed the coating. With just 3.0gr of Unique the brass would fit tight in the sizing die and bind up even with the sizing wax on it. When I would try to extract the case from the FL die the rim would get ripped off. The 5.7X28 brass is not that strong at the base so with me screwing with the it, by removing the plastic coating, I screwed up about 80 to 100 cases -- I can't use them. I learned the hard way not to mess with the coating on the brass. Another thing is, since the base of the shell is so small and it is taken up mostly by the primer pocket, I have to be careful about running the loads too hot or the pocket will enlarge and the primers can actually fall out. One of the loads I use in the manual rifle is 6.5gr max of H110 or W296 and it doesn't seem to mess with the primer pocket. I can probably reload the same case many many times with no problem -- just don't mess with the coating. By the way, I can use full load commercial ammo in the manual .223 AR but I built it to play with light loads and even cast bullets and it has really been a fun project. I honestly have not tried full load commercial 5.7X28 ammo in the manual 5.7X28 AR since I'm just getting started with it and still working on the different loads and bullets. I think I can get away with using 55gr bullets in the slow twist of the 5.7X28 barrel (1:14) but I have not had a chance to try them yet. Originally Posted By 22_boomer:
Originally Posted By EVR:
Originally Posted By dryflash3:
This is an interesting thread 22_boomer. I'm going to set the "toggle" to keep this thread out of the archives. Thanks. Yeah, it is, too. I gotta add, you guys with AR manual rifles, well, they are actually good looking. A manual AR doesn't look bad at all. I am a bit confused about why 5.7 brass would be so much trouble to resize. The 5.7X28 with the coating is easy to resize even when I use a hot load -- I just put some Imperial sizing wax on the shell and it goes right through the sizing die. I thought the plastic coating looked crappy and I wanted to make the cases shine like my other brass so I removed the coating. With just 3.0gr of Unique the brass would fit tight in the sizing die and bind up even with the sizing wax on it. When I would try to extract the case from the FL die the rim would get ripped off. The 5.7X28 brass is not that strong at the base so with me screwing with the it, by removing the plastic coating, I screwed up about 80 to 100 cases -- I can't use them. I learned the hard way not to mess with the coating on the brass. Another thing is, since the base of the shell is so small and it is taken up mostly by the primer pocket, I have to be careful about running the loads too hot or the pocket will enlarge and the primers can actually fall out. One of the loads I use in the manual rifle is 6.5gr max of H110 or W296 and it doesn't seem to mess with the primer pocket. I can probably reload the same case many many times with no problem -- just don't mess with the coating. By the way, I can use full load commercial ammo in the manual .223 AR but I built it to play with light loads and even cast bullets and it has really been a fun project. I honestly have not tried full load commercial 5.7X28 ammo in the manual 5.7X28 AR since I'm just getting started with it and still working on the different loads and bullets. I think I can get away with using 55gr bullets in the slow twist of the 5.7X28 barrel (1:14) but I have not had a chance to try them yet. Boy Howdy...but whoa. I'm with you and so you know, a guy that has a manual AR and dinks around with reduced load .223's ranks high on my list of gun-tech-nuts. But why would a clean brass case with proper lube NOT size and withdraw from a properly dimensioned sizing die? And by the way, I didn't know that 5.7x28 was coated brass. Reminds me of all the stuff I've read about "waxed cases" {etc} with the early Garand-system and Pedersen guns. |
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?
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Besides being small the 5.7X28 case is straight walled and I guess was made that way to help lock it in the chamber of the P90 and FN 5.7 pistol for a moment. The problem is that plain brass really likes to stick under pressure and using the fast burning Unique powder
puffed the case out and then I go and try to squeeze it back to the correct size in my die and the full length of the brass case grabs the inside of the die and does not want to let go and being straight walled, the full area of the case is holding on. The weak point is the rim and any problem with extraction from the die causes the rim to fail. This was the first time I tried the cases with the plastic coating removed and was that a heck of a mistake. The leverage that can be applied to a shell casing in a reloading press is pretty high and the extraction leverage is also pretty high. When the rim on the 5.7X28 case fails I have to set the die in a vise and pound the shell out -- they are all really stuck in there regardless of the sizing wax being on the case. With the plastic coating in place this never happened. When doing the .223 cases with reduced loads, they never show any signs of being over-pressured and puffed out. They run through the FL die so well that I have wondered if maybe I should just neck size and leave the case body alone. Heaven only knows how many times I could re-use the same case with these reduced loads. The difference between the .223 case and the 5.7X28 case is of course the case volume and I can use low charges of powders like H110 or W296 in the 5.7X28 cases where I can't do those very reduced loads in the .223 case using those powders because of the possibility of detonation and that, I guess, is the reason I work with both cases. |
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Originally Posted By 22_boomer:
Besides being small the 5.7X28 case is straight walled and I guess was made that way to help lock it in the chamber of the P90 and FN 5.7 pistol for a moment. The problem is that plain brass really likes to stick under pressure and using the fast burning Unique powder puffed the case out and then I go and try to squeeze it back to the correct size in my die and the full length of the brass case grabs the inside of the die and does not want to let go and being straight walled, the full area of the case is holding on. The weak point is the rim and any problem with extraction from the die causes the rim to fail. This was the first time I tried the cases with the plastic coating removed and was that a heck of a mistake. The leverage that can be applied to a shell casing in a reloading press is pretty high and the extraction leverage is also pretty high. When the rim on the 5.7X28 case fails I have to set the die in a vise and pound the shell out -- they are all really stuck in there regardless of the sizing wax being on the case. With the plastic coating in place this never happened. When doing the .223 cases with reduced loads, they never show any signs of being over-pressured and puffed out. They run through the FL die so well that I have wondered if maybe I should just neck size and leave the case body alone. Heaven only knows how many times I could re-use the same case with these reduced loads. The difference between the .223 case and the 5.7X28 case is of course the case volume and I can use low charges of powders like H110 or W296 in the 5.7X28 cases where I can't do those very reduced loads in the .223 case using those powders because of the possibility of detonation and that, I guess, is the reason I work with both cases. OK, but it still seems like if the sizing die is properly made and the case is properly lubed, no problems should arise. I'm not doubting your experience, but I am wondering if the sizing die is reamed/ground incorrectly. I've never read of problems sizing these cases before but then I never knew they were coated, either, so I guess I don't know much about the 5.7x28 case. Be that as it may, your experience with the manual rifles makes me think of a friend of mine in PA where you cannot use a semiauto for hunting. A bolt or straightpulll AR would have a lot going for it; parts and accesories, magazines, etc. Thanks for a great thread. |
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?
|
Yeah, it doesn't line-up with traditional reloading logic, but the polymer coating really is necessary for proper resizing as well as extraction if used in the FiveseveN or PS90.
Boomer: I deprime my 5.7 brass with a universal deprimer and then hand wash in hot, soapy water to get the dirt and carbon off. I then drain them before putting the cases in an old towel. While holding the four corners, two to a hand, I roll the cases back and forth to get the outsides mostly dry. I then spread them out so they aren't touching and allow them to sit for a few days. Once they're completely dry I use Dillon spray lubr and resize. I set up my Lee die using my PS90's cleaned chamber and turned down the die 1/8 of a turn until they easily fell from the chamber once it was tipped muzzle skywards. I've never messed with an AR in 5.7 since I'd already SBR'd my PS90, but have been intrigued with the AR57 uppers ever since they came out due to the ergonomics of the AR matched with the fun little 5.7 round. As far as subsonic loads go, I was able to get some nice 55gr Hornady FMJBT loads developed that would cycle the PS90 without popping the mag but the 40gr VMAX is so much more fun to shoot using the factory sight. Those 55s just fall off the map pretty quickly and not having any sort of holdover marks in the optic made shooting them at distance an exercise in futility. ETA: if you're the same 22_Boomer from the 7.62Tok forum you need to put some of those loads into a thread over here as well as the work you guys have been doing with the TCM and Reeds Express. Always enjoy reading about the messing around you and Tim are up to with oddball rounds. |
Reduced loads in the .223. (Page 1 of 2)
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